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My ongoing, intermittent Wallstar oil boiler problem AGAIN!
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MM
Dec 3, 2012, 1:38:04 AM12/3/12
to
Sorry to have to bore you chaps yet again with my woes. The boiler is,
as ever, unreliable at starting, frequently going into lockout when
the Danfoss timer calls for heating.
Yesterday evening the heating was due to come on at 20:00 so I went
out at 19:57, took off the boiler cover and watched the DKO 970
control box closely.
At precisely 20:00 the LED came on and stayed on. No flash code.
There was NO OTHER activity inside the boiler. No sound of the pump,
no movement of oil in the supply pipe, no sound of any spark, no
clicks, no nothing. The ONLY thing that happened was that the LED came
on.
I pressed the reset button and the boiler started.
However, now I am noticing that the boiler is locking out DURING the
cycle. This morning at 04:30 am it started okay. The Danfoss timer is
timed to come on at 04:30 and go off at 07:30.
But at around 04:50 (yes, I'm not getting much sleep!) I noticed that
the rads were going cold again, so I went out and checked and, yes,
the LED was ON constant. I pressed the Reset button and it started
again.
But just now, at around 06:00 am, the same thing happened. Rads going
cold, boiler locked out, LED ON. I've just pressed the Reset button
for a second time.
Is perhaps the temperature set too high? What about the knob on the
white boiler housing inside the garage? It's turned to MAX.
By the way, the current heating session is for HEATING only.
As a way of explanation, can anyone please clarify the typical
start-up process of an oil boiler for me?
I assume that the flame is ignited by means of electrodes, similar to
a spark plug?
So I further assume that the electrodes are set to start sparking
BEFORE any oil is sprayed into the combustion chamber?
I further assume that if the control box detects no flame AFTER this
initial sequence, it goes into lockout mode?
Is this how it proceeds? Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I am a
motor fitter by trade, not a heating engineer!
Many thanks to all who respond. I'm at my wits end with this Wallstar.
MM
as ever, unreliable at starting, frequently going into lockout when
the Danfoss timer calls for heating.
Yesterday evening the heating was due to come on at 20:00 so I went
out at 19:57, took off the boiler cover and watched the DKO 970
control box closely.
At precisely 20:00 the LED came on and stayed on. No flash code.
There was NO OTHER activity inside the boiler. No sound of the pump,
no movement of oil in the supply pipe, no sound of any spark, no
clicks, no nothing. The ONLY thing that happened was that the LED came
on.
I pressed the reset button and the boiler started.
However, now I am noticing that the boiler is locking out DURING the
cycle. This morning at 04:30 am it started okay. The Danfoss timer is
timed to come on at 04:30 and go off at 07:30.
But at around 04:50 (yes, I'm not getting much sleep!) I noticed that
the rads were going cold again, so I went out and checked and, yes,
the LED was ON constant. I pressed the Reset button and it started
again.
But just now, at around 06:00 am, the same thing happened. Rads going
cold, boiler locked out, LED ON. I've just pressed the Reset button
for a second time.
Is perhaps the temperature set too high? What about the knob on the
white boiler housing inside the garage? It's turned to MAX.
By the way, the current heating session is for HEATING only.
As a way of explanation, can anyone please clarify the typical
start-up process of an oil boiler for me?
I assume that the flame is ignited by means of electrodes, similar to
a spark plug?
So I further assume that the electrodes are set to start sparking
BEFORE any oil is sprayed into the combustion chamber?
I further assume that if the control box detects no flame AFTER this
initial sequence, it goes into lockout mode?
Is this how it proceeds? Please excuse my lack of knowledge. I am a
motor fitter by trade, not a heating engineer!
Many thanks to all who respond. I'm at my wits end with this Wallstar.
MM
harry
Dec 3, 2012, 2:14:19 AM12/3/12
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Normally when a boiler locks out, a red light comes on. Is this the
case with you?
A boiler locks out on startup when for some reason the flame fails to
establish or if the flame detecting device fails to see the flame.
So the cause can be
No/insufficient oil.
Polluted oil (water).
Low oil/air pressure/faulty pressure switch for measuring them.
Worn jet, oil not atomising, hard to ignite.
No spark-Faulty transformer, (dirty)sparkplug
Faulty sequence controller.
Flame failure device doesn't "see the flame"- faulty/dirty.
Start up sequence is
Purge (fan runs for 10-15 seconds, clears any fuel vapours present)
Pressure tested (fuel and air)
Spark
Fuel valve(s) open
Flame is established
Flame sensor sees flame.
On shut down
Fuel is cut off
Post purge (fan clears combustion gases)
If these things don't happen/fail for any reason you get a lockout.
You need to establish at what point lockout occurs. This gives a clue
as to what is faulty.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 2:58:35 AM12/3/12
to
has a pump that sucks oil from the tank in the garden. It is
approximately eight years old. This is the handbook that came with it:
http://www.wallstar.co.uk/content/pdfs/wallstar.pdf
>
>Normally when a boiler locks out, a red light comes on. Is this the
>case with you?
>A boiler locks out on startup when for some reason the flame fails to
>establish or if the flame detecting device fails to see the flame.
>So the cause can be
>
>No/insufficient oil.
>Polluted oil (water).
Engineer used dipstick smeared with special gunge that changes colour
if water is present. There is no water.
>Low oil/air pressure/faulty pressure switch for measuring them.
>Worn jet, oil not atomising, hard to ignite.
>No spark-Faulty transformer, (dirty)sparkplug
>Faulty sequence controller.
cleaned whatever components needed cleaning. New transformer, control
box, solenoid and photocell fitted in the last two weeks. The pump was
replaced in 2010 because it was diagnosed "noisy".
>Flame failure device doesn't "see the flame"- faulty/dirty.
>Start up sequence is
>Purge (fan runs for 10-15 seconds, clears any fuel vapours present)
LED comes on. I have had the boiler cover off and stood in front of it
listening intently for any signs of life. Zilch.
>Pressure tested (fuel and air)
>Spark
>Fuel valve(s) open
Ditto?
>Flame is established
>Flame sensor sees flame.
they not?
>On shut down
>Fuel is cut off
>Post purge (fan clears combustion gases)
>
>If these things don't happen/fail for any reason you get a lockout.
>You need to establish at what point lockout occurs. This gives a clue
>as to what is faulty.
There is no flash (diagnostics) code on the LED. The control box is a
DKO970. This is the manual:
http://www.ifs-store.com/pdf/satronic/DKO%20970%20-%20972.pdf
And yet the Reset button ALWAYS starts the boiler immediately! In
fact, that is when I *DO* hear the fan going, whereupon the burner
fires up a few seconds later.
When the LED first lights up, it's as if the sequence you describe
isn't even starting at all -- as if there is an "OK" box waiting for
a click in Windows to acknowledge something!
Like I said, it's a total mystery, both to me and the heating
engineer, and I have it on good authority from other residents that
this chap knows what he's doing.
A previous correspondent in this ng stated a few weeks ago that this
kind of intermittent problem can be damned difficult to fix sometimes.
Thanks for your response!
MM
Allan Mac
Dec 3, 2012, 3:44:12 AM12/3/12
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the motor always stops at the same position ( the tight spot) when it
comes to restart there is'nt enough oomph available to get it spinning
again. Intermittent at first, getting gradually worse.
Allan
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 4:19:32 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 07:58:35 +0000, MM wrote:
>> No/insufficient oil.
>
> There is plenty in the tank.
But is there a big enough hole down the supply pipe? If it's been well
>> No/insufficient oil.
>
> There is plenty in the tank.
below freezing for a while I'd suggest slush in a low point of line, that
can stop enough oil getting to the boiler. Has the line been cleaned? By
that I mean disconnected at both ends and a wodge of cloth on a wire
pulled through in the same direction a few times. Just flushing through
with oil won't get suffcient flow to purge water or muck from a low
point. BTDTGTTS...
Filters clean, no blocked orfices in filter housing, same with the fire
valve? Doesn't take a very big flake of paint or insect carapace to act
as a butterfly valve over/in a small hole. Such a little bit can take a
while to be drawn to the place where it causes problems then fall away
again once the flow stops.
> Engineer has checked the above exhaustively over the past month and
> cleaned whatever components needed cleaning. New transformer, control
> box, solenoid and photocell fitted in the last two weeks. The pump was
> replaced in 2010 because it was diagnosed "noisy".
> No fan can be heard to start. There is NO noise of ANY kind when the
> LED comes on. I have had the boiler cover off and stood in front of it
> listening intently for any signs of life. Zilch.
remembered across complete power downs, that would be the safe thing to
do.
>> Spark
>
> Would one hear that sparking?
the fan and last about 5s before it decides that there is no flame and
locks out. Flame detection turns off the spark.
>> Fuel valve(s) open
>
> Ditto?
Doubt it, never heard it on ours, to much other noise. An acoustic probe
on the right bit might pick it up.
> When the LED first lights up, it's as if the sequence you describe
> isn't even starting at all -- as if there is an "OK" box waiting for
> a click in Windows to acknowledge something!
almost everything else has been changed recently I'd be looking at a
complete strip down and check for free flow of oil through of every
component in the fuel line and all sections of the line itself are clear
of muck/water. Any flexible hoses, has that been changed?
As the boiler starts and behaves everytime the lockout is cleared I don't
think there is anything fundemental wrong with boiler. It looks as if
it's going into lockout at some random/indeterminate period after running
for a while. This could be a fault in the shutdown procedure, does the
boiler have a permenant live or just a single "call for heat" live? I
don't find that very likely TBH.
I suspect fuel starvation hence the full dismantling and checking of the
complete fuel line. Sorry about the thoughts being a bit random, sure you
can sort 'em out though.
--
Cheers
Dave.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 5:15:47 AM12/3/12
to
gradually worse until by beginning of October it is happening almost
50% of the time. Since I started *actively* monitoring *all* events
from 19 Nov I counted a total of 45 heating cycles when the boiler was
supposed to come, stay on for a period from 30 mins to 2.5 hours, then
switch off. Of those 45, 26 were successful, 19 were failures (needed
reset button).
The boiler had a new pump in 2010, but I suppose the motor is what
drives it, and that hasn't been replaced (yet!)
The engineer is going to replace the capacitor today or tomorrow. What
does this component do exactly?
MM
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 5:44:49 AM12/3/12
to
DKO970 comes on. That's all.
When the boiler starts successfully (on its own), the LED does not
come on at all. There are a few seconds which elapse since the Danfoss
timer triggered its ON event, then the fan starts, then a few seconds
later the burner starts and everything is hunky dory.
But it's when the boiler *does not* start, that's when there is NO fan
noise, no other noise, no other signs of life -- and then the LED
comes on and stays on. It's as if you had an LED wired across a
battery through a resistor and simply completed the circuit. The
entire boiler is otherwise dead.
> Should start about 10s after
>the fan and last about 5s before it decides that there is no flame and
>locks out. Flame detection turns off the spark.
automatically. I do hear the fan noise. I hear it even from outside
the garage with the boiler cover in place. Hearing the fan start is
always indication to me that the burner itself will fire in the next
few seconds, and it *always* does. It's when the fan doesn't start and
the LED comes on, that's the mystery.
>
>>> Fuel valve(s) open
>>
>> Ditto?
>
>Doubt it, never heard it on ours, to much other noise. An acoustic probe
>on the right bit might pick it up.
>
>> When the LED first lights up, it's as if the sequence you describe
>> isn't even starting at all -- as if there is an "OK" box waiting for
>> a click in Windows to acknowledge something!
>
>Or the previous shutdown was a lock out and is remembering that state. As
>almost everything else has been changed recently I'd be looking at a
>complete strip down and check for free flow of oil through of every
>component in the fuel line and all sections of the line itself are clear
>of muck/water. Any flexible hoses, has that been changed?
in bits at least once. He checked for no water in the tank, but the
actual line itself has not been removed/blasted through. Perhaps it
should? The distance between the boiler and the tank is approximately
12 metres. The boiler is mounted on/in the outside garage wall, the
pump being approximately 190cm above the base of the garage.
The hose has been replaced.
The motor, however, hasn't been changed. Allan Mac just now mentioned
a possible problem with a 'tight' spot on the motor bearings.'
>
>As the boiler starts and behaves everytime the lockout is cleared I don't
>think there is anything fundemental wrong with boiler. It looks as if
>it's going into lockout at some random/indeterminate period after running
>for a while. This could be a fault in the shutdown procedure, does the
>boiler have a permenant live or just a single "call for heat" live? I
>don't find that very likely TBH.
knowledge.
>
>I suspect fuel starvation hence the full dismantling and checking of the
>complete fuel line. Sorry about the thoughts being a bit random, sure you
>can sort 'em out though.
engineer.
I just did a test start (manual override on the Danfoss) and the
boiler started fine. I'll leave it on for 15 minutes, then wait a
couple of hours and repeat the test.
MM
Chris Holmes
Dec 3, 2012, 6:07:59 AM12/3/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi MM,
Sorry if i'm stating the obvious, but it sounds like either....
The fan motor isn't getting voltage, or if it is, it's not turning
when that voltage is applied, and therefore the Danfoss doesn't get
the messge that it's running and goes into lockdown.
These Wallstars SHOULD have both a permenant live connection from the
mains (if it's the same as my 13 YO Wallstar, this would mean that the
orange power light would be permenantly on I think). And then it would
get a "calling for heeat" live from the programmer/thermostat and this
is what would start the iginition sequance.
Mine has been wired incorrectly, and doesn't have the permenant live,
the ony "issue" I know of with this arrangement is that the orange
light only comes on when the boiler is actually running.
It's been irregularly serviced during it's 13 years, and aside of a
couple of lockouts has always fired first time.
Be assurred, I have other less relaiable appliances which cause me
headaches.
IANAHE
Chris
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 6:04:13 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 10:15:47 +0000, MM wrote:
> The engineer is going to replace the capacitor today or tomorrow. What
> does this component do exactly?
Enables the motor run. But the motor does run when it gets power after
> The engineer is going to replace the capacitor today or tomorrow. What
> does this component do exactly?
you hit the reset button... It's not getting power as the boiler has
entered lock out for some reason.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 6:23:21 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 10:44:49 +0000, MM wrote:
>>>> Spark
>>>
>>> Would one hear that sparking?
>>
>> Possibly, the noise of the fan can mask it.
>
> There IS no fan noise! There is *no* noise of any kind. The LED on the
> DKO970 comes on. That's all.
Because it's gone into lock out.
>>>> Spark
>>>
>>> Would one hear that sparking?
>>
>> Possibly, the noise of the fan can mask it.
>
> There IS no fan noise! There is *no* noise of any kind. The LED on the
> DKO970 comes on. That's all.
> When the boiler starts successfully (on its own), the LED does not
> come on at all. There are a few seconds which elapse since the Danfoss
> timer triggered its ON event, then the fan starts, then a few seconds
> later the burner starts and everything is hunky dory.
some where, this takes a few seconds, the auxillary switch in the valve
then turns the boiler on when the valve is open, the boiler should then
start it's ignition sequence of fan on for 10 s or so, spark, ignition,
flame detection, run...
> But it's when the boiler *does not* start, that's when there is NO fan
> noise, no other noise, no other signs of life -- and then the LED
> comes on and stays on.
> It's when the fan doesn't start and the LED comes on, that's the
> mystery.
latched into lock out. The fan won't run in this state until the reset is
pushed.
> He checked for no water in the tank, but the actual line itself has not
> been removed/blasted through. Perhaps it should?
little else to do, I doubt it's the motor capacitor, if they go the motor
just won't run or will be horribly noisey.
I'd get him to throughly check the fuel line from the tank isolation
valve, open that with the outlet disconnected to get a good flow into a
bucket to flush any debris out of the valve. Then look at and clean every
item and pipe. This will require a complete dismantling to check for a
bit of crud on say the inlet of the filter. Remember what I said about
bits taking a while to be drawn to where they cause a problem and then
falling back. Just beacuse the inlet to a device is clear when you look
at it doesn't mean there isn't a bit of crud way back down the feed
pipe...
> The motor, however, hasn't been changed. Allan Mac just now mentioned
> a possible problem with a 'tight' spot on the motor bearings.'
>> As the boiler starts and behaves everytime the lockout is cleared I
>> don't think there is anything fundemental wrong with boiler. It looks
>> after running for a while. This could be a fault in the shutdown
>> procedure, does the boiler have a permenant live or just a single
>> "call for heat" live? I don't find that very likely TBH.
>
> I don't understand that last question. Don't have the technical
> knowledge.
How many wires feed the bolier just live, neutral, and earth or is there
>> procedure, does the boiler have a permenant live or just a single
>> "call for heat" live? I don't find that very likely TBH.
>
> I don't understand that last question. Don't have the technical
> knowledge.
an extra wire that becomes live when the time switch is on and any room
stats calling for heat?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Grimly Curmudgeon
Dec 3, 2012, 6:48:19 AM12/3/12
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On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 06:38:04 +0000, MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>I further assume that if the control box detects no flame AFTER this
>initial sequence, it goes into lockout mode?
Defective or dirty flame detection photocell is a common cause of your
>I further assume that if the control box detects no flame AFTER this
>initial sequence, it goes into lockout mode?
symptom - although, it might be a defective control box.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 6:50:55 AM12/3/12
to
MM
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 6:57:54 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 03:07:59 -0800 (PST), Chris Holmes <cp...@o2.co.uk>
wrote:
Assuming you mean the orange neon light on the white-painted boiler
housing INside the garage, this only comes on when there's a "call for
heat".
I will mention that the house was new in 2004 and until 2010 the
boiled behaved 100% correctly year in, year out. Then in Spring of
2010 a faulty/worn pump was diagnosed and replaced and the boiler ran
since then until June 2012 when the current intermittent problem
started.
>Mine has been wired incorrectly, and doesn't have the permenant live,
>the ony "issue" I know of with this arrangement is that the orange
>light only comes on when the boiler is actually running.
As mine does. I'll mention this "permanent live" condition to the
engineer when he turns up.
>It's been irregularly serviced during it's 13 years, and aside of a
>couple of lockouts has always fired first time.
>
>Be assurred, I have other less relaiable appliances which cause me
>headaches.
>
>IANAHE
>
>Chris
Thanks for the response. Here's hoping we'll eventually get to the
bottom of it.
MM
wrote:
housing INside the garage, this only comes on when there's a "call for
heat".
I will mention that the house was new in 2004 and until 2010 the
boiled behaved 100% correctly year in, year out. Then in Spring of
2010 a faulty/worn pump was diagnosed and replaced and the boiler ran
since then until June 2012 when the current intermittent problem
started.
>Mine has been wired incorrectly, and doesn't have the permenant live,
>the ony "issue" I know of with this arrangement is that the orange
>light only comes on when the boiler is actually running.
engineer when he turns up.
>It's been irregularly serviced during it's 13 years, and aside of a
>couple of lockouts has always fired first time.
>
>Be assurred, I have other less relaiable appliances which cause me
>headaches.
>
>IANAHE
>
>Chris
bottom of it.
MM
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 7:11:21 AM12/3/12
to
read into an LED that just comes on? According to the DKO970 spec
sheet, it's supposed to flash in a certain sequence to indicate
possible areas of failure. Beats me why the ruddy boiler doesn't have
some kind of "engine management system" that could be connected to a
PC temporarily and then a log run of all desired values and the actual
values.
afraid.
There are no room stats. Each rad is fitted with a fancy Honeywell
knob thingy. The ONLY control is the Danfoss timer in the utility room
at the back of the garage. (Okay, there IS the round knob on the
white-painted boiler casing INside the garage. This has MAX and MIN
settings. The boiler handbook recommends MAX for heating and hot water
and MIN for hot water only. It's currently turned to MAX.)
I'll put your other points to the engineer in due course. Thanks
again.
MM
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 7:13:48 AM12/3/12
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On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:50:55 +0000, MM wrote:
>> Enables the motor run. But the motor does run when it gets power after
>> you hit the reset button... It's not getting power as the boiler has
>> entered lock out for some reason.
>
> Would a dodgy capacitor have that effect?
It could if the motor failed to start when told to but as you say it
>> Enables the motor run. But the motor does run when it gets power after
>> you hit the reset button... It's not getting power as the boiler has
>> entered lock out for some reason.
>
> Would a dodgy capacitor have that effect?
never fails to start when you hit the reset I find that unlikely.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 7:34:33 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:21 +0000, MM wrote:
> There are no room stats. Each rad is fitted with a fancy Honeywell
> knob thingy. The ONLY control is the Danfoss timer in the utility room
> at the back of the garage. (Okay, there IS the round knob on the
> white-painted boiler casing INside the garage. This has MAX and MIN
> settings. The boiler handbook recommends MAX for heating and hot water
> and MIN for hot water only. It's currently turned to MAX.)
Downloads manual that you linked to earlier (should have done that
> There are no room stats. Each rad is fitted with a fancy Honeywell
> knob thingy. The ONLY control is the Danfoss timer in the utility room
> at the back of the garage. (Okay, there IS the round knob on the
> white-painted boiler casing INside the garage. This has MAX and MIN
> settings. The boiler handbook recommends MAX for heating and hot water
> and MIN for hot water only. It's currently turned to MAX.)
before, sorry). That manual covers several different models/designs but I
see that some of them have a "limit" light and associated seperate reset
button as well as the "lockout" light with integrated reset button, or
the reset button located on the burner control box itself.
Which reset button brings it back to life?
If it's the "limit" one then we have been barking up the wrong tree, try
turning the thermostat down a notch or two, this should make the boiler
shutdown before it overheats. If this cures the problem then there is
another set of potential problems that ought to be looked at and sorted
out.
If it's the "lockout" reset one then carry on with what we have been
saying this morning.
--
Cheers
Dave.
Tim+
Dec 3, 2012, 7:53:43 AM12/3/12
to
controller to lock up? The fact that it always fires up properly using the
reset button may support this.
Tim
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 9:27:12 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:34:33 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:21 +0000, MM wrote:
>
>> There are no room stats. Each rad is fitted with a fancy Honeywell
>> knob thingy. The ONLY control is the Danfoss timer in the utility room
>> at the back of the garage. (Okay, there IS the round knob on the
>> white-painted boiler casing INside the garage. This has MAX and MIN
>> settings. The boiler handbook recommends MAX for heating and hot water
>> and MIN for hot water only. It's currently turned to MAX.)
>
>Downloads manual that you linked to earlier (should have done that
>before, sorry). That manual covers several different models/designs but I
>see that some of them have a "limit" light and associated seperate reset
>button as well as the "lockout" light with integrated reset button, or
>the reset button located on the burner control box itself.
>
>Which reset button brings it back to life?
This is the button/LED:
<allsortsn...@howhill.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:11:21 +0000, MM wrote:
>
>> There are no room stats. Each rad is fitted with a fancy Honeywell
>> knob thingy. The ONLY control is the Danfoss timer in the utility room
>> at the back of the garage. (Okay, there IS the round knob on the
>> white-painted boiler casing INside the garage. This has MAX and MIN
>> settings. The boiler handbook recommends MAX for heating and hot water
>> and MIN for hot water only. It's currently turned to MAX.)
>
>Downloads manual that you linked to earlier (should have done that
>before, sorry). That manual covers several different models/designs but I
>see that some of them have a "limit" light and associated seperate reset
>button as well as the "lockout" light with integrated reset button, or
>the reset button located on the burner control box itself.
>
>Which reset button brings it back to life?
http://www.littletyke.myzen.co.uk/dko970_control_box.jpg
>If it's the "limit" one then we have been barking up the wrong tree, try
>turning the thermostat down a notch or two, this should make the boiler
>shutdown before it overheats. If this cures the problem then there is
>another set of potential problems that ought to be looked at and sorted
>out.
>
>If it's the "lockout" reset one then carry on with what we have been
>saying this morning.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 9:35:10 AM12/3/12
to
just don't know enough about heating electronics to be able to say,
but it sounds entirely reasonable.
Mind you, I'd have thought a Danfoss timer/programmer would last
longer that eight years. The model number is CP715:
http://www.littletyke.myzen.co.uk/danfoss.jpg
MM
Grimly Curmudgeon
Dec 3, 2012, 10:35:19 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 10:15:47 +0000, MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>The engineer is going to replace the capacitor today or tomorrow. What
>does this component do exactly?
It snips posts, dozy bollocks.
>The engineer is going to replace the capacitor today or tomorrow. What
>does this component do exactly?
Chris Holmes
Dec 3, 2012, 11:32:00 AM12/3/12
to
On 3 Dec, 12:34, "Dave Liquorice" <allsortsnotthis...@howhill.com>
wrote:
I'm pretty sure the item in MM's link in his later post is the lockout
which lives outside with the oily bits, the overheat "trip" is on the
"inside the house" side (and I have turned the wick down slightly on
my boiler stat which has resulted in it's not tripping this any longer
(not that it did it more than a couple of times in 5 or so years
anyway)).
wrote:
which lives outside with the oily bits, the overheat "trip" is on the
"inside the house" side (and I have turned the wick down slightly on
my boiler stat which has resulted in it's not tripping this any longer
(not that it did it more than a couple of times in 5 or so years
anyway)).
Peter Parry
Dec 3, 2012, 11:45:23 AM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 10:44:49 +0000, MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>There IS no fan noise! There is *no* noise of any kind. The LED on the
>DKO970 comes on. That's all.
The DK0970 manual is at
>
>There IS no fan noise! There is *no* noise of any kind. The LED on the
>DKO970 comes on. That's all.
http://mkwheatingcontrols.co.uk/download/dko970-972.pdf if you have
not already found it.
Most such controllers use relays to drive external bits so if there
really is absolute silence (not even a very faint click - you might
have to listen with a screwdriver to your ear and on the box) then the
controller isn't telling anything to do anything and lockout will
occur a short time later.
The voltage on the controller terminals 3 to 7 should give you a clue
as to what is going on. The LED should also flash during startup to
indicate what is going on - does it (for a successful start)?
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 11:58:47 AM12/3/12
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On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:45:23 +0000, Peter Parry <pe...@wpp.ltd.uk>
wrote:
Nope. During and after a successful start the LED does NOT light.
This afternoon, continuing my test 15-minute periods (see previous
post in thread) since this morning, it came on twice successfully and
three times needed reset (LED on).
MM
wrote:
This afternoon, continuing my test 15-minute periods (see previous
post in thread) since this morning, it came on twice successfully and
three times needed reset (LED on).
MM
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 11:59:21 AM12/3/12
to
MM
harry
Dec 3, 2012, 12:16:14 PM12/3/12
to
eis a slight chance it is faulty but not great.
The fault seems to arise in the motor not running.
If the motor doesn't run,the boiler will go to lockout. Either there
is no power to the motor or the motor (or capacitor) is faulty.
So, Is the motor free to revolve?
Is electricity getting to the motor?
Are both the start and run windings non open circuit?
There is a series of events/tests on start up. An event cannot start
until the preceding event is complete/ tested positve.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 1:04:09 PM12/3/12
to
prior activity. The Danfoss "calls for heat", some seconds elapse, the
LED comes on. Finito.
MM
Dave Liquorice
Dec 3, 2012, 1:37:08 PM12/3/12
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On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:04:09 +0000, MM wrote:
> When my boiler locks out, there is no indication whatsoever of any
> prior activity. The Danfoss "calls for heat", some seconds elapse, the
> LED comes on. Finito.
Does the lockout LED come on at the same time as the power indicator or
> When my boiler locks out, there is no indication whatsoever of any
> prior activity. The Danfoss "calls for heat", some seconds elapse, the
> LED comes on. Finito.
does the power indicator lead by some seconds?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Grimly Curmudgeon
Dec 3, 2012, 1:59:12 PM12/3/12
to
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:59:21 +0000, MM <kyli...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>It snips posts, dozy bollocks.
>
>I don't snip where the context is important to trace.
Bullshite.
>>It snips posts, dozy bollocks.
>
>I don't snip where the context is important to trace.
MM
Dec 3, 2012, 2:15:55 PM12/3/12
to
too.
You see, the Danfoss is inside the house and the boiler is outside on
the garage wall. I cannot observe both switching on the manyal
override button on the Danfoss whilst simultaneously watching the
boiler control box LED.
Even if I let the heating come on by a timed event and am waiting
outside the boiler a minute or two earlier, I cannot watch both the
LED on the Danfoss AND the LED on the control box!
I even thought of setting up my web cam, but that would entail major
upheaval throughout the house. Not saying I wouldn't do it, though...
I actually thought of mirrors. When my previous car was due its MOT I
checked the stop lights by means of a mirror mounted temporarily on my
standard lamp!
If you have any ideas how this may be achieved, feel free to suggest
anything!
Now I'll try and draw you a picture of the layout:
http://www.littletyke.myzen.co.uk/house.jpg
So... in order to run a test "call for heating" I remove the cover
from the boiler housing (from the garden path along the side of the
garage). Then I go back inside and press the required manual override
button on the Danfoss (either heating or hot water). Then I, as
quickly as possible, race back to the boiler (several metres away and
round a 90 deg corner) and observe what happens, if necessary pressing
the reset button if lockout occurs.
The toilet has an opening window near the boiler. Sometimes, in order
to check whether the boiler has come on, I open the toilet window and
listen for (a) the fan and (b) the burner.
But I can't see any way to press the button on the Danfoss AND watch
the control box. I can't ask the neighbour to press the Danfoss button
for me while I watch the boiler because he's waiting for a heart valve
replacement, is quite poorly and never goes out in the cold weather
which apparently hits him like a train. And if I allow the Danfoss to
trigger on the timer, then I cannot see the exact second it actually
sends its "call for heat" message to the boiler.
I need some ingenious method like my mirror on a stick for checking
the stop lights!
MM
Grimly Curmudgeon
Dec 3, 2012, 3:50:11 PM12/3/12
to
>There is a series of events/tests on start up. An event cannot start
>until the preceding event is complete/ tested positve.
Snip, you bastard.
>until the preceding event is complete/ tested positve.
Chris Holmes
Dec 3, 2012, 3:53:53 PM12/3/12
to
On Dec 3, 7:15 pm, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:37:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
>
> On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:37:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
>
What if th lockout is occurring not as part of the startup procedure,
but at the end
Of the previous shutdown?
This COULD POSSIBLY be caused by flue gasses or unspent oil hanging
Around (due to them not having been got rid of by the fan "running on"
After the firing (because it has no mains as (I think) there is no
perms ant live.
As I stated earlier IANAHE and I don't know if it could work this way,
but it might.
Jules Richardson
Dec 3, 2012, 8:38:06 PM12/3/12
to
scroll through the complete works of shakespeare just to get to some new
content :-)
MM
Dec 4, 2012, 7:26:09 AM12/4/12
to
On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 12:53:53 -0800 (PST), Chris Holmes <cp...@o2.co.uk>
wrote:
I don't know enough about boilers to be able to tell, although your
point sounds perfectly reasonable. But the thing is, the moment that
the Danfoss switches off, so does the boiler, including the control
box LED. I know this because several times I've checked the boiler
BEFORE switching on the Danfoss (or allowing it to trigger by timer)
and the control box LED is always off to begin with.
Here may be one new clue: For the past few weeks I have programmed the
"call for heat" cycles as follows (on the Danfoss):
Mon through Sun, heating only (I switch on the boiler for hot water
only when needed, not on the timer):
ON at 04:30 OFF at 05:00
ON at 17:00 OFF at 17:00 (i.e. NO call for heat, see note below)
ON at 23:00 OFF at 23:30
This was purely for frost protection purposes so that it didn't get
too cold in the loft (I've since opened the loft hatch by 45 degrees
as well).
However, since the weather turned colder, I've revised the programme
as follows:
ON at 04:30 OFF at 07:30
ON at 16:00 OFF at 17:30
ON at 21:00 OFF at 22:30
Note on the Danfoss: If the ON and OFF times are the same, this
effectively cancels that event.
Now, since I went to the longer ON times I've noticed that the boiler
also locks out sometimes during the cycle. So, for instance, it will
come on at 04:30, rads get nice and hot, then I happen to be passing
one of the rads and feel it and it's going cold again. This has
happened at random times. On checking the control box LED, it's ON
constant, ie. locked out. I press the reset button once more and the
boiler comes on and usually finishes its cycle, e.g. right up until
07:30.
On one occasion the lockout happened after about 30 minutes into the
cycle. Another time the boiler ran for about 1.5 hours and then
lockout occurred.
Usually, however, once the boiler has started, it will run to the end
of the desired period.
When I say "run", I mean that its typical behaviour is to come on,
burn for about 15 minutes, then switch off. It then waits for around 4
minutes and then comes back on for only a few minutes, provided the
cycle specified by the Danfoss programme is still active. The boiler
will thus switch itself ON and OFF numerous times during a long "call
for heat" cycle.
If any part of the above isn't clear, let me know!
Thanks for your response BTW.
MM
wrote:
point sounds perfectly reasonable. But the thing is, the moment that
the Danfoss switches off, so does the boiler, including the control
box LED. I know this because several times I've checked the boiler
BEFORE switching on the Danfoss (or allowing it to trigger by timer)
and the control box LED is always off to begin with.
Here may be one new clue: For the past few weeks I have programmed the
"call for heat" cycles as follows (on the Danfoss):
Mon through Sun, heating only (I switch on the boiler for hot water
only when needed, not on the timer):
ON at 04:30 OFF at 05:00
ON at 17:00 OFF at 17:00 (i.e. NO call for heat, see note below)
ON at 23:00 OFF at 23:30
This was purely for frost protection purposes so that it didn't get
too cold in the loft (I've since opened the loft hatch by 45 degrees
as well).
However, since the weather turned colder, I've revised the programme
as follows:
ON at 04:30 OFF at 07:30
ON at 16:00 OFF at 17:30
ON at 21:00 OFF at 22:30
Note on the Danfoss: If the ON and OFF times are the same, this
effectively cancels that event.
Now, since I went to the longer ON times I've noticed that the boiler
also locks out sometimes during the cycle. So, for instance, it will
come on at 04:30, rads get nice and hot, then I happen to be passing
one of the rads and feel it and it's going cold again. This has
happened at random times. On checking the control box LED, it's ON
constant, ie. locked out. I press the reset button once more and the
boiler comes on and usually finishes its cycle, e.g. right up until
07:30.
On one occasion the lockout happened after about 30 minutes into the
cycle. Another time the boiler ran for about 1.5 hours and then
lockout occurred.
Usually, however, once the boiler has started, it will run to the end
of the desired period.
When I say "run", I mean that its typical behaviour is to come on,
burn for about 15 minutes, then switch off. It then waits for around 4
minutes and then comes back on for only a few minutes, provided the
cycle specified by the Danfoss programme is still active. The boiler
will thus switch itself ON and OFF numerous times during a long "call
for heat" cycle.
If any part of the above isn't clear, let me know!
Thanks for your response BTW.
MM
Fredxx
Dec 4, 2012, 8:01:26 AM12/4/12
to
pump motor, to indicate when the motor has power but doesn't actually run.
Chris Holmes
Dec 4, 2012, 8:51:37 AM12/4/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oil pump? Or water pump?
> - Show quoted text -
Dave Liquorice
Dec 4, 2012, 8:45:07 AM12/4/12
to
On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 13:01:26 +0000, Fredxx wrote:
> I was wondering if it might be wise to place a small mains bulb across
> the pump motor, to indicate when the motor has power but doesn't
> actually run.
And/or across the mains L and N in to see if the thing comes on in the
> I was wondering if it might be wise to place a small mains bulb across
> the pump motor, to indicate when the motor has power but doesn't
> actually run.
lockout state, easier than mirrors. B-)
The bulb holder and flex from a pendant light fitting with a 15W pygmy
bulb fitted would do, so would a 60W GLS but would be a bit bright next
to a LED. Obviously want a light that comes on straight away...
Did MM's boiler man change the motor capacitor yesterday? If so has it
made any difference?
--
Cheers
Dave.
Chris Holmes
Dec 4, 2012, 9:04:37 AM12/4/12
to
On 4 Dec, 12:26, MM <kylix...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
<Snip>
> On one occasion the lockout happened after about 30 minutes into the
> cycle. Another time the boiler ran for about 1.5 hours and then
> lockout occurred.
>
> Usually, however, once the boiler has started, it will run to the end
> of the desired period.
>
> When I say "run", I mean that its typical behaviour is to come on,
> burn for about 15 minutes, then switch off. It then waits for around 4
> minutes and then comes back on for only a few minutes, provided the
> cycle specified by the Danfoss programme is still active. The boiler
> will thus switch itself ON and OFF numerous times during a long "call
> for heat" cycle.
>
> If any part of the above isn't clear, let me know!
>
> Thanks for your response BTW.
>
> MM- Hide quoted text -
As I said, I am no expert either, but I begin to suspect either the
Danfoss, or else the moterised valvery gubbins.
Maybe as an earlier poster suggested they aren't switching cleanly.
But the intermittant nateure of the problem is an embuggerating
factor.
Could you wire up a plug in (or some other form) of timer as a
temporary supply to the boiler and pump and switch it on and off a
number of times and see whether you do or don't get lockout? If it
locksout, then it's probably not Danfoss/Valve(s) if it does, then...
well, you're probably no further on.
Chris
Do let us (and future generations) know what it was when you've solved
it.
<Snip>
> On one occasion the lockout happened after about 30 minutes into the
> cycle. Another time the boiler ran for about 1.5 hours and then
> lockout occurred.
>
> Usually, however, once the boiler has started, it will run to the end
> of the desired period.
>
> When I say "run", I mean that its typical behaviour is to come on,
> burn for about 15 minutes, then switch off. It then waits for around 4
> minutes and then comes back on for only a few minutes, provided the
> cycle specified by the Danfoss programme is still active. The boiler
> will thus switch itself ON and OFF numerous times during a long "call
> for heat" cycle.
>
> If any part of the above isn't clear, let me know!
>
> Thanks for your response BTW.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hmmm....
> - Show quoted text -
As I said, I am no expert either, but I begin to suspect either the
Danfoss, or else the moterised valvery gubbins.
Maybe as an earlier poster suggested they aren't switching cleanly.
But the intermittant nateure of the problem is an embuggerating
factor.
Could you wire up a plug in (or some other form) of timer as a
temporary supply to the boiler and pump and switch it on and off a
number of times and see whether you do or don't get lockout? If it
locksout, then it's probably not Danfoss/Valve(s) if it does, then...
well, you're probably no further on.
Chris
Do let us (and future generations) know what it was when you've solved
it.
Dave Liquorice
Dec 4, 2012, 9:03:41 AM12/4/12
to
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 05:51:37 -0800 (PST), Chris Holmes wrote:
>> I was wondering if it might be wise to place a small mains bulb across
>> the pump motor, to indicate when the motor has power but doesn't
>> actually run.
>
>> I was wondering if it might be wise to place a small mains bulb across
>> the pump motor, to indicate when the motor has power but doesn't
>> actually run.
>
> Oil pump? Or water pump?
Well it'll be the fan motor that also drives the oil pump.
Forgot to say that a neon screwdriver would also serve as mains on
indicator to save faffing about with bulbs etc...
--
Cheers
Dave.
MM
Dec 4, 2012, 9:59:09 AM12/4/12
to
Yeah, I know! :(
MM
MM
Dec 4, 2012, 10:02:37 AM12/4/12
to
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 06:04:37 -0800 (PST), Chris Holmes <cp...@o2.co.uk>
wrote:
I really will do that, certainly.
As for the most recent suggestions about a neon screwdriver or a bulb,
I really wouldn't know what I'm doing there, I'm afraid. I can change
a plug, even add a 13amp spur (though no longer legally permissible as
a DIY job), but playing around with either the Danfoss wiring or the
boiler wiring is simply beyond me, sorry.
MM
wrote:
As for the most recent suggestions about a neon screwdriver or a bulb,
I really wouldn't know what I'm doing there, I'm afraid. I can change
a plug, even add a 13amp spur (though no longer legally permissible as
a DIY job), but playing around with either the Danfoss wiring or the
boiler wiring is simply beyond me, sorry.
MM
Fredxx
Dec 4, 2012, 10:40:34 AM12/4/12
to
On 04/12/2012 15:02, MM wrote:
>
> As for the most recent suggestions about a neon screwdriver or a bulb,
> I really wouldn't know what I'm doing there, I'm afraid. I can change
> a plug, even add a 13amp spur (though no longer legally permissible as
> a DIY job), but playing around with either the Danfoss wiring or the
> boiler wiring is simply beyond me, sorry.
>
If you can change a plug then I don't see any major difficulty.
>
> As for the most recent suggestions about a neon screwdriver or a bulb,
> I really wouldn't know what I'm doing there, I'm afraid. I can change
> a plug, even add a 13amp spur (though no longer legally permissible as
> a DIY job), but playing around with either the Danfoss wiring or the
> boiler wiring is simply beyond me, sorry.
>
I would take a normal table lamp and remove the plug.
Strip some of the secondary out PVC insulation away to give you some
lead to play with.
Have a look at the pump motor, I would expect to see a modest cable
going to it.
Remove the cable/connector cover on the pump. The incoming wire will
most likely be 3 wires, earth and the two line conductors.
Loosen the brown and blue wire connectors, add the ones for the table
lamp with the incoming cable wires and tighten back up.
harry
Dec 4, 2012, 11:57:06 AM12/4/12
to
FIDDLING ABOUT.
Fredxx
Dec 4, 2012, 12:15:39 PM12/4/12
to
this - but yes, slap on the wrist accepted!
Jules Richardson
Dec 4, 2012, 12:34:32 PM12/4/12
to
On Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:40:34 +0000, Fredxx wrote:
> Loosen the brown and blue wire connectors, add the ones for the table
> lamp with the incoming cable wires and tighten back up.
And don't forget to switch the lamp on :-)
> Loosen the brown and blue wire connectors, add the ones for the table
> lamp with the incoming cable wires and tighten back up.
Dave Liquorice
Dec 4, 2012, 12:34:38 PM12/4/12
to
On Tue, 4 Dec 2012 08:57:06 -0800 (PST), harry wrote:
>> Remove the cable/connector cover on the pump. The incoming wire will
>> most likely be 3 wires, earth and the two line conductors.
This is motor for the fan/oil pump in an oil burner not a circulating
>> Remove the cable/connector cover on the pump. The incoming wire will
>> most likely be 3 wires, earth and the two line conductors.
pump. It may have connector block but it may well be well buried. As a
first check I'd go for the main connector block and the incoming switched
live (might be the only live) and neutral. Then see if the thing is
powering up in lockout or is going into lockout because the fan doesn't
run, thus no oil, thus no flame.
> Tch. MAKE SURE THE PUMP IS ELECTRICALLY ISOLATED BEFORE YO U START
> FIDDLING ABOUT.
either. All the heating system should be feed through a single switched
fused spur somewhere, switching that off should do it but with and
unknown system I'd still make sure that time switches and thermostats
really are dead.
--
Cheers
Dave.
MM
Dec 4, 2012, 12:49:09 PM12/4/12
to
Changing a plug is one thing. Messing about with an oil boiler's
electrics about which I know absolutely zilch may just be a little
optimistic, not to say foolhardy.
BTW, engineer's just been and fitted a new capacitor. He was here for
40 minutes after that and we both observed the boiler cycling through
its ON/OFF stages sweet as a nut. Let's see what happens over the next
48 hours.
MM
Lancashire lad
Nov 8, 2014, 6:23:23 PM11/8/14
to
MM
Nov 9, 2014, 4:03:00 AM11/9/14
to
"dragging" at one particular spot. A new pump fixed it. The reason why
the engineer hadn't tried the pump before trying everything else was
because it had been replaced barely two years before. The boiler has
been okay ever since. Maybe the problem arose when the boiler was
cold, because once it started, it kept running. Till it switched off
automatically on the thermostat during the burning cycle, the pump
went cold again, and the shaft "dragging" became a problem again,
whereupon the boiler promptly cut out.
MM
johnje...@gmail.com
Nov 10, 2014, 9:01:26 AM11/10/14
to
Pressure jet oil burner sequence
1 call for heat
2 sequence control box looks at photocell to ensure no flame is present (should not be seeing a light at this stage or the unit goes to "false light lockout"). This catches out many. Usually a new (correct) photocell cures it.
3 power applied to motor
4 power applied to ignition spark generator
5 after run-up the power is applied to oil solenoid (oil sprayed as fine mist from nozzle and ignited by ignition arc)
6 photocell sees light of flame and tells controller to switch off ignition arc and keep solenoid open and motor running until demand for heat removed. If no flame is seen the controller removes power from motor, ignition and solenoid then locks out.
If the burner is above the oil level in the tank and the fuel pipe has a defect allowing oil to drain back from the pump first time starting may not be satisfactory but pressing the reset works ok. Similar fault symptoms can occur if the oil pump shaft seal or oil solenoid are worn and allow drainback.
Burners higher than oil tanks require two pipe installation or a "tiger loop". If your service man is experienced and competent he should be already looking along these lines.
1 call for heat
2 sequence control box looks at photocell to ensure no flame is present (should not be seeing a light at this stage or the unit goes to "false light lockout"). This catches out many. Usually a new (correct) photocell cures it.
3 power applied to motor
4 power applied to ignition spark generator
5 after run-up the power is applied to oil solenoid (oil sprayed as fine mist from nozzle and ignited by ignition arc)
6 photocell sees light of flame and tells controller to switch off ignition arc and keep solenoid open and motor running until demand for heat removed. If no flame is seen the controller removes power from motor, ignition and solenoid then locks out.
If the burner is above the oil level in the tank and the fuel pipe has a defect allowing oil to drain back from the pump first time starting may not be satisfactory but pressing the reset works ok. Similar fault symptoms can occur if the oil pump shaft seal or oil solenoid are worn and allow drainback.
Burners higher than oil tanks require two pipe installation or a "tiger loop". If your service man is experienced and competent he should be already looking along these lines.
gbgordo...@gmail.com
Nov 15, 2016, 3:34:43 PM11/15/16
to
Had same problem with a Wallstar. The wiring behind the control box was faulty. Check methodically for loose/bad connections.
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