House painting spec
Tim
Does anyone have an example of a specification to give a decorator for an
external paint job. It seems more reasonable to give the guy a spec of what
is expected, even though writing it all down is a pain in the ....
A related question: The sash window slides have been painted up and the
windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to clean the paint
off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead, and get the windows
working, or is that a job for a specialist who really knows what he is
doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage except on the ground floor.
Chris Bacon
> Does anyone have an example of a specification to give a decorator for an
> external paint job. It seems more reasonable to give the guy a spec of what
> is expected, even though writing it all down is a pain in the ....
Turn it around, get him to give you a spec. which you approve.
> A related question: The sash window slides have been painted up and the
> windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to clean the paint
> off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead, and get the windows
> working, or is that a job for a specialist who really knows what he is
> doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage except on the ground floor.
Why does it make any difference whether it's the ground floor
or the first? You don't need to go outside... the decorater
should be able to deal with this if he's got experience, but
may decline to do so if the windows are "iffy". What are these
slides and grooves that you mention?
Stuart Noble
As you say, no need to go outside. Off with the 2 staff beads at the
sides, and swing the lower sash inwards so you can get at the parting
beads. I use pliers to pull them out if I want to salvage them (which
saves the hassle of trying to find replacements of the same thickness),
but normally they're shot to pieces. Another pair of hands preferable.
Chris Bacon
> Chris Bacon wrote:
>> Tim wrote:
>> Turn it around, get him to give you a spec. which you approve.
>>> the windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to
>>> clean the paint off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead,
>>> and get the windows working, or is that a job for a specialist who
>>> really knows what he is doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage
>>> except on the ground floor.
>
>> Why does it make any difference whether it's the ground floor
>> or the first? You don't need to go outside... the decorater
>> should be able to deal with this if he's got experience, but
>> may decline to do so if the windows are "iffy". What are these
>> slides and grooves that you mention?
>
> As you say, no need to go outside. Off with the 2 staff beads at the
> sides, and swing the lower sash inwards so you can get at the parting
> beads. I use pliers to pull them out if I want to salvage them (which
> saves the hassle of trying to find replacements of the same thickness),
> but normally they're shot to pieces. Another pair of hands preferable.
I use a short block of planed timber at an angle against the
staff beads, and tap it with a hammer to start the bead. It
can then be levered up more easily/with less (or no) damage.
Parting beads are best removed as you describe, or with some
other thing like pincers/grips/packing - frequently it seems
that screwdrivers etc. were pushed into the sides as levers,
which can be rather destructive.
To replace parting bead, it's easy enough to get some strip
and plane it down a touch, rounding off with the plane, too.
It's not really worth trying to find anything "off the shelf"
IME as it doesn't exist!
What's all this about wax that the OP's talking about?
Tim
Chris Bacon wrote
> Tim wrote:
>> Does anyone have an example of a specification to give a decorator for an
>> external paint job. It seems more reasonable to give the guy a spec of
>> what is expected, even though writing it all down is a pain in the ....
>
> Turn it around, get him to give you a spec. which you approve.
I suspect that most decorators are better at decorating than at writing
specs.
My aim is to get an unambiguous spec without giving the people quoting
any unnecessary work.
On commercial jobs, does the architect write the spec?
>> A related question: The sash window slides have been painted up and the
>> windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to clean the
>> paint off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead, and get the
>> windows working, or is that a job for a specialist who really knows what
>> he is doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage except on the ground
>> floor.
>
> Why does it make any difference whether it's the ground floor
> or the first? You don't need to go outside... the decorater
> should be able to deal with this if he's got experience, but
> may decline to do so if the windows are "iffy". What are these
> slides and grooves that you mention?
On either side of the parting bead.
Tim
Chris Bacon wrote
> To replace parting bead, it's easy enough to get some strip
> and plane it down a touch, rounding off with the plane, too.
> It's not really worth trying to find anything "off the shelf"
> IME as it doesn't exist!
>
> What's all this about wax that the OP's talking about?
I thought that you were supposed to wax the channel the windows slides in. I
guess I am wrong, so what is the best treatment for this wood? My windows,
twelve on three floors, are all painted shut, though one or two windows can
be moved a few inches.
Christian McArdle
> windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to clean the
paint
> off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead, and get the windows
> working, or is that a job for a specialist who really knows what he is
> doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage except on the ground floor.
I'd be surprised if the decorator wants to take on that job, although it is
definetely worth asking. A sash window specialist will do it all, including
replacing any worn sash cord etc. for about 150-200 quid a window.
As others have said, it is done entirely from the inside. No ladders
required. When replacing the parting bead, use a draughtproofed modern
version. Sash window hardware is available from www.mighton.co.uk. There is
no need for brushes on the beading, or on the meeting rails. Just the
parting bead will do. Brushes on the meeting rail can trap water and the gap
is useful as a trickle vent.
Christian.
Chris Bacon
> Chris Bacon wrote
>>Tim wrote:
>>What are these slides and grooves that you mention?
>
> On either side of the parting bead.
You don't put wax on these.
Chris Bacon
>Tim wrote, but Christian McArdle munged the attributions yet again:
>> [stuck sash windows]
>
> A sash window specialist will do it all, including
> replacing any worn sash cord etc. for about 150-200 quid a window.
'Kinell. That seems pretty steep to me, compared with DIY-ing,
which is easy.
Chris Bacon
> My windows, twelve on three floors, are all painted shut, though
> one or two windows can be moved a few inches.
Try one... go on! Select a window that's a bit out of the way,
and have a go! They really are simple, you'll be surprised!
Christian McArdle
> > replacing any worn sash cord etc. for about 150-200 quid a window.
>
> 'Kinell. That seems pretty steep to me, compared with DIY-ing,
> which is easy.
Indeed. I think the stripping and painting are expensive in professional
terms, requiring much time, including drying between coats etc.
Christian.
Tim
So how do you treat the unpainted timber? Varnish of some sort?
Chris Bacon
The only unpainted timber should be on the sides of the
sliding sashes (where the cords are nailed in). These
should have a few inches of paint near the bottom,
though. You won't see that unless you remove them.
The visible bits of the sash box should all be painted.
Stuart Noble
Some old sashes will have strips the width of the parting bead where the
paint has rubbed off with friction. This where you're better rubbing a
candle over it rather than painting. Or you may find there's a thick
layer of paint there where the faces have been stripped but the edges
left. In that case best to leave it so that you don't reduce the sash
thickness and give it room to rattle. There's normally a lot of
clearance between the sides of the sash and the frame, so lubrication
isn't necessary, but candle wax will add protection to the bare wood. I
never bother as these edges are the least vulnerable part.
Chris Bacon
> [sash windows]
> Some old sashes will have strips the width of the parting bead where the
> paint has rubbed off with friction.
Not sure I understand you - do you mean on the face of the frame?
> This where you're better rubbing a
> candle over it rather than painting. Or you may find there's a thick
> layer of paint there where the faces have been stripped but the edges
> left. In that case best to leave it so that you don't reduce the sash
> thickness and give it room to rattle.
"Mighton parting bead".
If I could think of a good way to fit Mighton parting bead into
an oversize groove, not involving drilling and pinning the things
and bodging the groove up with mastic, I'de be quite glad. I've
been toying with the idea of using a rubber strip of the right
width and using car body filler as, erm, filler. Any ideas?
Phil L
> Does anyone have an example of a specification to give a decorator
> for an external paint job. It seems more reasonable to give the guy a
> spec of what is expected, even though writing it all down is a pain
> in the ....
He doesn't need one if he's a decorator and not an odd-job man, you just
tell him the colours of stonework, woodwork, metalwork etc and he'll do the
job, he doesn't need to be told to fill, rub down, dust off etc, it's his
job.
If you insist on a spec, then something like:
Window frames: 1 coat of undercoat (colour) followed by 1 coat of gloss
(colour)
Barge boards and soffits: 1 coat of undercoat (c) followed by 1 coat of
gloss (c)
(in the case of soffits, barge boards etc, you might want a different
coloured undercoat to the gloss, so that you can see that they have had 2
coats, or 3 if you desire 3 coats - a common scheme for these is red
undercoat, grey undercoat, gloss (not grey))
Gutters: as frames
etc
>
> A related question: The sash window slides have been painted up and
> the windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to
> clean the paint off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead,
> and get the windows working, or is that a job for a specialist who
> really knows what he is doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage
> except on the ground floor.
It's unlikely a decorator would do these, especially at this time of year
when everybody and his uncle wants their exterior painting and he's
inundated with work, also if you are getting this done, you'd be as well
having it done prior to decorating, given that he'll have to paint inside
the runners and whoever frees the sashes will be chipping a lot of the old
paint off.
Ken
to pay, especially if you expect paint defects to be burned or sanded down.
I have seen it too many times, decorating is the thing you see. Cheap
price=cheap job. Just bear it in mind. Good preparation takes time and many
processess-- this costs money.
ken
Tim
Chris Bacon wrote
> The only unpainted timber should be on the sides of the
> sliding sashes (where the cords are nailed in). These
> should have a few inches of paint near the bottom,
> though. You won't see that unless you remove them.
> The visible bits of the sash box should all be painted.
>
OK. But looking round the neighbourhood I often see that the wood described
as the Pulley Stile on this page
http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/product_images/weatherproofing.html
is unpainted. Does that make sense or is a response to folk law?
Chris Bacon
I've no idea. It doesn't make sense at all. I've never seen this
done generally. What happens where the pulley stile meets the sill?
Stuart Noble
> Stuart Noble wrote:
>
>> [sash windows]
>> Some old sashes will have strips the width of the parting bead where
>> the paint has rubbed off with friction.
>
>
> Not sure I understand you - do you mean on the face of the frame?
Yes. The bit that's hidden by the parting bead.
>
>
>> This where you're better rubbing a candle over it rather than
>> painting. Or you may find there's a thick layer of paint there where
>> the faces have been stripped but the edges left. In that case best to
>> leave it so that you don't reduce the sash thickness and give it room
>> to rattle.
>
>
> "Mighton parting bead".
>
> If I could think of a good way to fit Mighton parting bead into
> an oversize groove, not involving drilling and pinning the things
> and bodging the groove up with mastic, I'de be quite glad. I've
> been toying with the idea of using a rubber strip of the right
> width and using car body filler as, erm, filler. Any ideas?
I'd try the Mighton bead with body filler. 3 or 4 small dabs to hold it
in position, then take your time making a neat job of the rest
Christian McArdle
> an oversize groove, not involving drilling and pinning the things
> and bodging the groove up with mastic, I'de be quite glad.
You could make the slot narrower with a strip of some material. A sliver of
3mm ply or suchlike. I don't know how oversize your gap is.
Christian.
Rob Morley
board out to fix it - I guess chippies don't like painting :-)
Chris Bacon
> Chris Bacon wrote:
>> an oversize groove, not involving drilling and pinning the things
>> and bodging the groove up with mastic, I'de be quite glad. I've
>> been toying with the idea of using a rubber strip of the right
>> width and using car body filler as, erm, filler. Any ideas?
>
> I'd try the Mighton bead with body filler. 3 or 4 small dabs to hold it
> in position, then take your time making a neat job of the rest
The trouble is that the "wings" make the bead "fall over" if
you press it into liquid filler, and the bead might not be
centralised - getting the bead out again would be a PITA,
too, hence the idea of trying to make the groove smaller
before fitting the bead.
Chris Bacon
They vary from house to house - some (few) are OK, some are
about 12mm, probably 1/2". Any packing needs to be secure,
and equal on each side.
Another issue is that they only supply it in 2400mm and
3000mm lengths.
Chris Bacon
> Tim wrote:
>>Chris Bacon wrote
>>>The only unpainted timber should be on the sides of the
>>>sliding sashes (where the cords are nailed in). These
>>>should have a few inches of paint near the bottom,
>>>though. You won't see that unless you remove them.
>>>The visible bits of the sash box should all be painted.
>>>
>>OK. But looking round the neighbourhood I often see that the wood described
>>as the Pulley Stile on this page
>>http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/product_images/weatherproofing.html
>>is unpainted. Does that make sense or is a response to folk law?
>
> That'll be where the sash cord has broken and they've had to smash the
> board out to fix it
Why should they "smash the board out"?
Stuart Noble
> Stuart Noble wrote:
>
>> Chris Bacon wrote:
>>
>>> If I could think of a good way to fit Mighton parting bead into
>>> an oversize groove, not involving drilling and pinning the things
>>> and bodging the groove up with mastic, I'de be quite glad. I've
>>> been toying with the idea of using a rubber strip of the right
>>> width and using car body filler as, erm, filler. Any ideas?
>>
>>
>> I'd try the Mighton bead with body filler. 3 or 4 small dabs to hold
>> it in position, then take your time making a neat job of the rest
>
>
> The trouble is that the "wings" make the bead "fall over" if
> you press it into liquid filler, and the bead might not be
> centralised
Hm. How about using a strip of something the same thickness as the bead
slot and setting that in body filler. If you smear it with vaseline, and
it's wide enough to get hold of, it'll pull out easily enough once it's
set. I've done similar things successfully
@diddle.dot Donwill
"Tim" <t...@rockylogiccom.noooospam.com> wrote in message
news:e1fvi9$r5u$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> Does anyone have an example of a specification to give a decorator for an
> external paint job. It seems more reasonable to give the guy a spec of
> what is expected, even though writing it all down is a pain in the ....
>
>
> windows don't work. Is it reasonable to ask the decorator to clean the
> paint off, wax the grooves, fix/replace the parting bead, and get the
> windows working, or is that a job for a specialist who really knows what
> he is doing? It's definitely not a job I can manage except on the ground
> floor.
>
Cheers
Donwill
Tim
Chris Bacon wrote
> Tim wrote:
>> http://www.mightonproducts.com/catalog/product_images/weatherproofing.html
>> is unpainted. Does that make sense or is a response to folk law?
>
> I've no idea. It doesn't make sense at all. I've never seen this
> done generally. What happens where the pulley stile meets the sill?
There seems to be a (painted) block of wood at the bottom, chamfered on its
top face. Would that be a combination of weather sealing for the sash
woodwork plus an emergency stop for the top window in case the cords break?
Or just evidence of a repair job?
Tim
Donwil wrote
> "Tim" <t...@rockylogiccom.noooospam.com> wrote
> If you explain your email address I'll send you a spec I did many years
> ago.
Thanks Donwil. The tim stays the same and rockylogiccom becomes rockylogic
with the usual dot com.
The noooospam.com at the end is junk, the extra ooo because nospam.com is a
real address - bet they get lots of mail.
Tim
Chris Bacon
It's a mystery. Can you upload a picture somewhere appropriate?
That would be very interesting.
Normally what happens is that one sash cord breaks, and the
window then jams.