Inspection chamber cover: Screws wl not unscrew...

[Maurice]

Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the patio,
but the screws will not budge.
Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down the
sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.

Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
persuading the screws to turn?
(Last resort: drill them out...)

The cover and sample screw can be seen here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG

--
/\/\aurice
(Replace "nomail.afraid" by "bcs" to reply by email)

[Cursitor Doom]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:21:10 +0000, Maurice wrote:

> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the
> patio,
> but the screws will not budge.
> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down the
> sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>
> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
> persuading the screws to turn?
> (Last resort: drill them out...)

I've found Plusgas and all the other so-called "releasing agents" to be
totally useless, to be honest.
This looks like a job for an impact driver. I'd be reasonably confident
about getting them out with one of those, having previously had
consistently good results with them.

[Phil L]

Maurice wrote:
> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the
> patio, but the screws will not budge.
> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down
> the sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>
> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
> persuading the screws to turn?
> (Last resort: drill them out...)
>
> The cover and sample screw can be seen here:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG

Unscrewing the screws won't get you anywhere as it's an inset lid....the lid
just sits inside a steel tray, nothing fixes down to anything

(It's a steel tray sitting inside a steel frame, you can see the two strips
of thin steel running parallel to each other around the edge.)

It should have handles that pull up so that the whole thing, paving and all
lifts out, but the handles won't be under those screws - it looks like
they've pointed over them. You may have to scrape out the pointing inbetween
the screws to locate the lifting mechanism, maybe handles but maybe holes in
steel in which a key is inserted, not that you've got a key...

[ss]

On 03/08/2016 18:57, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> I've found Plusgas and all the other so-called "releasing agents" to be
> totally useless, to be honest.
> This looks like a job for an impact driver. I'd be reasonably confident
> about getting them out with one of those, having previously had
> consistently good results with them.

I was having trouble getting a screw loose on a bracket what I did was
use my cordless drill on a low speed low torque setting and increased
gradually so it wouldnt strip the head. I was quite surprised that it
loosened it, maybe just luck but it worked.

[Andy Burns]

Phil L wrote:

> Unscrewing the screws won't get you anywhere as it's an inset lid

Maybe you're then supposed to screw some handles or hooks or something
into the threaded holes?

[Phil L]

Maybe, but in 25 years of installing these things I've never seen one like
that.

Normally, there's a black plastic strip, which is prised off with a flat
driver and underneath is a lift handle that pulls up, there's one on each
side.

Other than that, they sometimes have a welded steel plate covering about
40mm of opposite corners and this plate has a hole in it in which a suitable
shaped lump of metal is inserted and lifted.

this thing looks like the lifting mechanism is along each side inbetween
these screws - the pointing is particularly wide here....although like i
said, I've never seen one like that.

It is of course a possibility that the screws themselves are the lifting
mechanism and are not meant to be moved, I'd scrape around and under each
one and insert a suitable rope / cable / whatever and lift it out that way.

[Fredxxx]

On 03/08/2016 18:21, Maurice wrote:
> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the patio,
> but the screws will not budge.
> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down the
> sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>
> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
> persuading the screws to turn?
> (Last resort: drill them out...)
>
> The cover and sample screw can be seen here:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG

I would have thought an impact driver after lots of Plusgas or similar.

[Phil L]

Nope.

It's one of these:

http://bit.ly/2am05rv

The paving needs to come out and then be set back in after whatever needs
doing in the manhole

[Andy Burns]

Phil L wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Maybe you're then supposed to screw some handles or hooks or something
>> into the threaded holes?
>
> Maybe, but in 25 years of installing these things I've never seen one like
> that.
>
> Normally, there's a black plastic strip, which is prised off with a flat
> driver and underneath is a lift handle that pulls up, there's one on each
> side.

Indeed mine is like that, but neighbour's is more like the O/P's, we
needed a heavy duty pair of threaded manhole keys and two car jacks to
shift it.

[Andy Burns]

Phil L wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>

>> Maybe you're then supposed to screw some handles or hooks or something
>> into the threaded holes?
>
> Nope. It's one of these:
> http://bit.ly/2am05rv
>
> The paving needs to come out and then be set back in after whatever needs
> doing in the manhole

surely not?

e.g.

<http://www.manholecovers.co.uk/catalogue/recessed-steel-access-covers/double-seal-double-cover-recessed-airtight-seals>

which says ...

"When unlocked screw holes act as lifting eyes"

[Phil L]

Probably.
I took the four steel bars across the corners as lifting handles.

This is not the manhole for the job, the screw down type are for lids which
are likely to come under back pressure, IE in basements etc.
Normal garden type manholes don't need to be screwed down within themselves,
there's enough weight in the paving / mortar etc inside the lid, they weigh
in at about 50kg when filled.

All plastic ones are normally screwed down as there's no weight in them

To the OP:
Good luck finding a threaded handle, well, several threaded handles really

[Capitol]

I think it's a sealed down tray, which is used in an indoor
location normally. I've a couple in my kitchen, which are floor screed
filled to allow for tiling over the top. The screws do hold down the
tray onto a rubber seal to prevent/reduce water leakage. I'd use a
manual impact driver very gently to break the screws loose and get them
moving. Maybe some heat will also be required.

[GB]

On 03-Aug-16 9:20 PM, Phil L wrote:

> To the OP:
> Good luck finding a threaded handle, well, several threaded handles really

Once the 4 locking screws are undone, they might be retained within the
tray to provide something to lift?

Failing that, how about a couple of expanding bolts with eyes, and maybe
an engine hoist?

I'm sure there's scope to use an angle grinder.

[alan_m]

Blowtorch on the screws first? Then insert screw driver and tap the
handle with a hammer before attempting to turn them. A screwdriver with
the blade the same width as the screw helps, especially one with a long
shaft as well.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Fredxxx]

Despite others here swearing by blowtorches, I've never been successful
with applying heat. I find whatever is binding steel against steel
simply gets stronger. Possibly the similar to cold welding, but given
the temperature more efficient.

On the other hand I've been more successful at applying shock, such as
the combination if direct impact and turning action through the use of
an impact driver.

I've often resorted to the careful drilling of a screw or bolt where
it's sheared through binding and rust.

In the OP's case, I doubt the screws are of importance given the weight
of stone.

[Tim Watts]

On 03/08/16 18:21, Maurice wrote:
> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the patio,
> but the screws will not budge.
> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down the
> sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>
> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
> persuading the screws to turn?
> (Last resort: drill them out...)
>
> The cover and sample screw can be seen here:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG
>

At some risk to the stones, hot gas flame - ideally a fine very hot one
to heat the screw red hot. That will usually crack the rust, but in your
case, it *may* crack a stone too.

[Tim Watts]

AND assuming there's not plastic or rubber seals present (saw someone
else's post).

[Brian Gaff]

Kill or cure then...!
Brian

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[dennis@home]

On 03/08/2016 19:54, Phil L wrote:
> Maurice wrote:
>> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the
>> patio, but the screws will not budge.
>> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down
>> the sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>>
>> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
>> persuading the screws to turn?
>> (Last resort: drill them out...)
>>
>> The cover and sample screw can be seen here:
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG
>>
>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG
>
> Unscrewing the screws won't get you anywhere as it's an inset lid....the lid
> just sits inside a steel tray, nothing fixes down to anything

Its not going anywhere until he undoes the screws.
The screws hold the two parts together and he doesn't want to rip the
frame out.

I used to have one just like it.

Its going to be very heavy with all the paving in it.

[newshound]

On 8/3/2016 6:21 PM, Maurice wrote:
> Previous owners had fastened down an inspection chamber lid on the patio,
> but the screws will not budge.
> Tried numerous applications of PlusGas, and it does disappear down the
> sides of the screws, which later still refuse to move at all.
>
> Apart from keeping on with the PlusGas, are there any other ways of
> persuading the screws to turn?
> (Last resort: drill them out...)
>
> The cover and sample screw can be seen here:
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover.JPG
>
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10969499/inspection-cover-screw.JPG
>

I had the same problem with a cast alloy cover on a round plastic
inspection chamber. Possible galvanic corrosion between the steel screw,
alloy cover, brass insert, in that particular case.

I drilled them out.

[newshound]

On 8/3/2016 10:25 PM, Fredxxx wrote:
> On 03/08/2016 22:08, alan_m wrote:

> Despite others here swearing by blowtorches, I've never been successful
> with applying heat. I find whatever is binding steel against steel
> simply gets stronger. Possibly the similar to cold welding, but given
> the temperature more efficient.
>

I definitely agree in this case. However it is remarkable how exhaust
fasteners come loose if you take them up to red heat with a gas axe.

[tony sayer]

In article <hk7a7d...@squidward.local.dionic.net>, Tim Watts
<tw_u...@dionic.net> scribeth thus

Are they steel screws look more like Brass ones doesn't seem to be any
colouring like galvanising or rust apparent and they don't look
stainless either?..

--
Tony Sayer

[Maurice]

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 08:20:53 +0100, tony sayer wrote:

> Are they steel screws look more like Brass ones

Yes, they do look like brass.

I do have a large 'persuader' screwdriver that seldom refuses to turn a
screw, but the blade is not quite as long as the screw slot, and none of
the
screws has shown the slightest movement (yet).

Having given them several soakings of PlusGas, will try again today.

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 22:22:05 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

> use an adjustable spanner tightened down onto the flats.

When you say "the flats", you mean the screwdriver blade, presumably, to
provide torque on the horizontal plane?

Will give that a try...

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 21:49:52 +0100, Capitol wrote:

> I'd use a manual impact driver very gently to break the screws loose and
> get them moving.

Does "manual impact driver" mean hammer, by any chance?!

(Have tried tapping the screw heads with a hammer.)

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 20:48:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> When unlocked screw holes act as lifting eyes"

Presumably some kind of handle that screws into the vacated threads,
but I
imagine 2 pairs would be needed, so don't see how a pair could be screwed
in for one of the lifting handles.
But given the right design I guess such a gadget could be made (but not
by
me...).

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 20:16:53 +0100, Phil L wrote:

> The paving needs to come out and then be set back in after whatever
> needs doing in the manhole

What puzzles me is: What are the screws screwed into?
If they are holding the whole lid down they would need 4 flanges
projecting horizontally into the cavity, which I'm not sure I believe.

If the screws are not holding the lid in position (but simply holding the
lid
together), then perhaps it's a case of levering the lid out after
clearing
out the inset material? (if that can be done without taking the screws
out).

When we had a drain blockage last year, the guy who came to sort it out
tried to get this lid off, but simply failed to move the screws, which
presumably means he had not come across any other solution.
(Eventually discovered it was a different manhole cover that needed
lifting, which was eventually found (using a metal detector) buried under
a
layer of gravel and stones...)

[Bob Eager]

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 12:17:12 +0000, Maurice wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 21:49:52 +0100, Capitol wrote:
>
>> I'd use a manual impact driver very gently to break the screws loose
>> and get them moving.
>
> Does "manual impact driver" mean hammer, by any chance?!

It means a manual impact driver. I've had one for nearly 50 years. It
still works. Bit solid slug of metal, with a screwdriver socket in the
end, on a very big, coarse thread. Put screwdriver in screw, hold it
tight and hit the other end with a hammer.

http://goo.gl/yN4cVq


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Tim Watts]

On 05/08/16 13:17, Maurice wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 21:49:52 +0100, Capitol wrote:
>
>> I'd use a manual impact driver very gently to break the screws loose and
>> get them moving.
>
> Does "manual impact driver" mean hammer, by any chance?!
>
> (Have tried tapping the screw heads with a hammer.)
>

No - probably means one of these:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/ImpactDriverWithBits.png

[Roger Mills]

On 05/08/2016 13:23, Maurice wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 20:48:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> When unlocked screw holes act as lifting eyes"
>
> Presumably some kind of handle that screws into the vacated threads,
> but I
> imagine 2 pairs would be needed, so don't see how a pair could be screwed
> in for one of the lifting handles.
> But given the right design I guess such a gadget could be made (but not
> by
> me...).
>

I don't understand that. Surely the threaded holes are in the outer
frame which is concreted into the ground, with plain holes in the lid
for the screws to pass through? If that is the case, anything screwed
into the threaded holes wouldn't allow the lid to be lifted.

Or am I missing something?
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

[dennis@home]

On 05/08/2016 13:32, Maurice wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 20:16:53 +0100, Phil L wrote:
>
>> The paving needs to come out and then be set back in after whatever
>> needs doing in the manhole
>
> What puzzles me is: What are the screws screwed into?

The outer frame, this is concreted in.

> If they are holding the whole lid down they would need 4 flanges
> projecting horizontally into the cavity, which I'm not sure I believe.

They project outwards and are under the surrounding paving.

[Capitol]

Maurice wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 21:49:52 +0100, Capitol wrote:
>
>
>> I'd use a manual impact driver very gently to break the screws loose and
>> get them moving.
>>
> Does "manual impact driver" mean hammer, by any chance?!
>
> (Have tried tapping the screw heads with a hammer.)
>
>

No, a hand held impact screwdriver, tapped with a hammer. You can
control the impact force doing it this way.

[tony sayer]

In article <no1vll$1lm$1...@news.albasani.net>, Maurice
<mau...@nomail.afraid.org> scribeth thus

>On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 08:20:53 +0100, tony sayer wrote:
>
>> Are they steel screws look more like Brass ones
>
> Yes, they do look like brass.
>
>I do have a large 'persuader' screwdriver that seldom refuses to turn a
>screw, but the blade is not quite as long as the screw slot, and none of
>the
>screws has shown the slightest movement (yet).
>
>Having given them several soakings of PlusGas, will try again today.
>

Lets open a book re the chances of them being wrung off;-(..
--
Tony Sayer

[Maurice]

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:05:08 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> Surely the threaded holes are in the outer frame which is concreted into
> the ground, with plain holes in the lid for the screws to pass through?

No. The metal piece through which the screw sits is on the *lid*, not
the
outer frame. (There is a narrow gap between that piece of metal and the
outer
frame, which can just be seen in the photo.)

> If that is the case, anything screwed into the threaded holes wouldn't
> allow the lid to be lifted.

No, it wouldn't.

So if the screw goes into the lid, replacing the screw with a lifting
handle
wo↓ld seem feasible.
(If only the screws would come out and I had the right gadget to screw
in...)

[Maurice]

On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 12:45:59 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

> http://goo.gl/yN4cVq

Thank you for that, Bob! Will invest in one...

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 22:25:08 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

> I doubt the screws are of importance given the weight of stone.

Good point! I've been wondering how removing the screws will help the
situation, unless they are fastening the lid to the frame in some way.

Supposing I got the screws out.
How does that get me nearer to lifting the lid (unless there I have a
lifting gadget that can be screwed in in their place)?

I don't see any other solution, so if I then can't find such a gadget
then
the cover will be immoveable - unless perhaps if I somehow remove all the
filling that's in the lid find something to provide sufficient lifting
grip.

[Roger Mills]

On 06/08/2016 17:35, Maurice wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Aug 2016 16:05:08 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> Surely the threaded holes are in the outer frame which is concreted into
>> the ground, with plain holes in the lid for the screws to pass through?
>
> No. The metal piece through which the screw sits is on the *lid*, not
> the
> outer frame. (There is a narrow gap between that piece of metal and the
> outer
> frame, which can just be seen in the photo.)
>

In that case, what are the screws *for*? If they don't hold the lid onto
the frame, do they simply blank off the threaded holes - until such time
as they are replaced by lifting eyes?

I'm not sure that you understood what I meant about the outer frame. The
part which is concreted into the ground will have a flange all the way
round which extends under the edges of the lid by an inch or so to
support the lid - which would otherwise fall into the hole! My hunch is
that the threaded holes are in that flange, with plain holes in the lid
itself. I don't see how you can be certain that that is not so without
taking it apart because the relevant bits are simply not visible.

[Maurice]

On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 11:05:28 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> In that case, what are the screws *for*?

A question I keep returning to...

> If they don't hold the lid onto
> the frame, do they simply blank off the threaded holes - until such time
> as they are replaced by lifting eyes?

Why are screws needed to keep the cover in place, though?
None of the other chambers have the screws.
So I tend to support the view given elsewhere in here that provide for
a
lifting handle to replace the screws. (I'm making enquiries about that.)

> I'm not sure that you understood what I meant about the outer frame. The
> part which is concreted into the ground will have a flange all the way
> round which extends under the edges of the lid by an inch or so to

> support the lid which would otherwise fall into the hole!

Agreed.

> My hunch is that the threaded holes are in that flange, with plain
holes in
> the lid itself.

I've never seen a chamber with such a projecting flange.

> I don't see how you can be certain that that is not so without
> taking it apart because the relevant bits are simply not visible.

Me too.

[charles]

In article <e0ofeo...@mid.individual.net>,

a visit to a friendly builders merchant might be sensible. See if you can
find your cover on his shelves.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Roger Mills]

On 07/08/2016 12:45, Maurice wrote:

>
> I've never seen a chamber with such a projecting flange.
>

I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.

What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?

I have a similar lid in my drive - which is clad with imprinted concrete
rather than crazy paving. Mine doesn't screw down though, but it *does*
have a couple of holes into which cranked T-bars can be inserted to lift
it. My holes look like what I imagine your 4 holes would look like if
you removed(!) the screws. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow in
case they help.

Lids are only normally screwed down when they're inside a building and
need to be completely sealed against odors and surcharging. These
invariably have a rubber gasket underneath. I have a spare (cast iron -
not paved) lid and frame of that sort, and will post some pictures of
that, too, if I've got time tomorrow.

[dennis@home]

On 07/08/2016 21:50, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 07/08/2016 12:45, Maurice wrote:
>
>>
>> I've never seen a chamber with such a projecting flange.
>>
>
> I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
> supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.
>
> What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?
>
> I have a similar lid in my drive - which is clad with imprinted concrete
> rather than crazy paving. Mine doesn't screw down though, but it *does*
> have a couple of holes into which cranked T-bars can be inserted to lift
> it. My holes look like what I imagine your 4 holes would look like if
> you removed(!) the screws. I'll try to post some pictures tomorrow in
> case they help.
>
> Lids are only normally screwed down when they're inside a building and
> need to be completely sealed against odors and surcharging. These
> invariably have a rubber gasket underneath. I have a spare (cast iron -
> not paved) lid and frame of that sort, and will post some pictures of
> that, too, if I've got time tomorrow.

Its a double sealed inspection cover.
There are loads of different ones here...

https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/browse/underground-drainage/manholes-and-grates/10-tonne-galvanised-manhole-covers.html

The double sealed ones have four screws just like the OP has and they
hold the cover down.

The others have holes for keys to remove the lid.

The double seal ones you can use a "J" key that hooks into the hole
between the top and the threaded hole in the frame.

They are something like
http://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-o-end-light-duty-lifting-keys/6650k
but you need to check the size of the hole under the screw.

[Roger Mills]

This is almost certainly what the OP has got:
https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/double-sealed-recessed-manhole-cover-and-frame-300-x-30mm-10-tonne.html

[Don't know about the exact size, but this sort of thing]

The screws hold the lid down to tapped holes in the under-frame. When
they are removed, two sets of J keys can be inserted onto the holes to
lift the lid - a two person job in this case.

All the OP needs to do is to remove the screws(!)

I don't think the photos which I was going to take would add anything
useful to that, so I won't bother unless the OP specifically wants me to.

[Maurice]

On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 21:50:54 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> I've never seen one without a flange. The flange is *under* the lid and
> supports it. You can't see it when the lid is in place.
>
> What do you suppose stops the lid falling into the chamber?

Of course there's a (narrow) flange to stop the cover falling in.

But the size of flange required to take the screw shown would have to be
wider than that flange, and I've never seen one like that (yet).

Here is the reply I got from the previous owner, by the way:

"..the cover you are talking about does not need special tools or
handles, only a large screwdriver. Suggest a good thump in the
centre
of the drain with a large piece of wood (fence post?) then just
lever
it out with something like a spade."

- which appears to be saying that it *is* screwed down.

[Maurice]

On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 14:13:46 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> This is almost certainly what the OP has got:

Looks like it! An internal fixture used on a patio.

Ah well - time to order the impact driver...

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:57:45 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

> This looks like a job for an impact driver.

Numerous applications of PlusGas and Impact Driver* did the trick!

The 'screws' are actually 1/4" dia 2" bolts with a circular slotted head.
Cleaned the gunge off, applied silicon spray to thread and bolthole and
replaced them.

Looks as though the bottom 1/2" of the thread screws into a flange
projecting
from the side of the chamber, but what I still need to check is whether
or
not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
unscrewung
from flange.
If it does, then perhaps there's a handle of some kind that could screw
into that (or try tying rope round bolt head, but head isn't all that
wide).

What might do the trick - if it exists - is a lifting spindle with spring
arms at the end, that could be passed down through the bolthole until it
comes out of the lower edge of the lid, at which point the spring arms
would
shoot out and provide lifting capability. (Once lid lifted out,
retract arms to retrieve spindle.)
But probably not enough clearance between lid and chamber flange for
arms
to operate.

Tomorrow will get a screw out and see if it still grips inside the lid on
the
way out. Too exhausted to do any more today...

In the meantime, anyone know of lifting gadgets for these situations,
please?

(* Draper kit; head setting for unscrew quite ambiguous. Trial and
error...)

--
/\/\aurice (Only 83)

[Tim+]

Maurice <mau...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:57:45 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>
>> This looks like a job for an impact driver.
>
> Numerous applications of PlusGas and Impact Driver* did the trick!
>
> The 'screws' are actually 1/4" dia 2" bolts with a circular slotted head.
> Cleaned the gunge off, applied silicon spray to thread and bolthole and
> replaced them.
>
> Looks as though the bottom 1/2" of the thread screws into a flange
> projecting
> from the side of the chamber, but what I still need to check is whether
> or
> not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after
> unscrewung
> from flange.

Unlikely I would have thought at that would interfere with the screws
clamping force.

Tim

--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

[Roger Mills]

On 15/08/2016 17:26, Maurice wrote:

Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
the trick.

[Andy Burns]

Roger Mills wrote:

> Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
> A couple of pairs of those - and two people to operate them -should do
> the trick.

Or a trolley jack at one end and a human at the other ...

[alan_m]

For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195

I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
wood underneath, Once raised this far and is supported with the wood
just lift one edge by hand so that the the cover is vertical and then
just swing it to one side.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

[Andy Burns]

alan_m wrote:

> For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'

But is it filled with umpty kilos of stone/cement? And has it been
sitting there for years getting sand wedged into all its crevices?

[alan_m]

It's bloody heavy - probably the original from 100+ years ago.

[Maurice]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:

> For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'
>
> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195
>
> I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
> wood underneath,

The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
time
to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.

Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
there.
Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
utility bar could get its claw in.

--
/\/\aurice

[Tim+]

Maurice <mau...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:
>
>> For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'
>>
>> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195
>>
>> I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
>> wood underneath,
>
> The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
> time
> to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.
>
> Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
> there.
> Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
> utility bar could get its claw in.
>

Are you just trolling or are you wilfully ignoring the suggestion to use J
keys as suggested (and link provided) earlier on?

It's clear that the clearances down the sides are too narrow for any prying
device so you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the
screw holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal. Hardly rocket science to
improvise something if you don't fancy buying keys.

Tim

--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

[Maurice]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:42:17 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:

> Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.

I can't find anything there that is other than hook/T-end,D-end - no
use.
None for threaded situation.

The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
this on Amazon:

http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva

but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

--
/\/\aurice

[Tim+]

Maurice <mau...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 22:42:17 +0100, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> Someone provided a link to 'J' keys on the Screwfix site a few days ago.
>
> I can't find anything there that is other than hook/T-end,D-end - no
> use.

How do you know? A hook/J-ended bar seems to be exactly what you need.

> None for threaded situation.

As I've already explained, the cover is almost certainly unthreaded. A
threaded lifting bar is probably not what you want.

>
> The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
> this on Amazon:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva
>
> but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

Look on eBay for "lifting bars". Pick a J shaped one that looks like it
will fit through the holes.

[Maurice]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 16:26:23 +0000, I wrote:

> what I still need to check is whether
> or not the upper part of the thread engages with the lid itself after

> unscrewing from flange.


Sadly, it doesn't, although there may be a gadget that has a slightly
larger screw thread that would grip the side of the bolt hole.
(Or one of those expanding bolts (e.g. Rawlplug) that are inserted and
then
expanded to grip.)
That might be the only 'lifting' solution.

> What might do the trick - if it exists - is a lifting spindle with
> spring arms at the end, that could be passed down through the bolthole
> until it comes out of the lower edge of the lid, at which point the
> spring arms would shoot out and provide lifting capability.

> But probably not enough clearance between lid and chamber flange for
> arms to operate.

No, not enough...

--
/\/\aurice

[Roger Mills]

On 15/08/2016 22:47, Andy Burns wrote:

I don't see how that would help. You need two hands on each pair of
keys, angling them towards each other as you lift.

[Maurice]

On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:54:01 +0100, Phil L wrote:

> It should have handles that pull up so that the whole thing, paving and
> all lifts out, but the handles won't be under those screws - it looks
> like they've pointed over them.

I suspect you are right!

But I'm reluctant to remove the infill, as the cover is currently flush
with
the often-used paved patio, so the lat resort is to try to lever the lid
out
with e.g. a spade, although the gap between cover and frame is small
(e.g.
3mm) at best..

[Roger Mills]

But, in this case, the lid is effectively a box which is a fairly tight
fit inside another box. You need to left it out square - otherwise it
will jam.

[Roger Mills]

On 16/08/2016 15:17, Maurice wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 23:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:
>
>> For my manhole cover I just lever it up with a 'utility bar'
>>
>> http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p14195
>>
>> I lever it up on one side just enough to slide/kick a piece of scrap
>> wood underneath,
>
> The cover seems a very tight fit on the chamber, althogh I haven't had
> time
> to get on with post-bolt-removal stage yet.
>
> Need some sharp gadget to start clearing whatever slight gap there is
> there.
> Usually a slim straight spade blade does the trick; not sure the chunky
> utility bar could get its claw in.
>

Pressure washer, to wash the crud out?

[Roger Mills]

On 16/08/2016 15:44, Maurice wrote:
> The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
> this on Amazon:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva
>
> but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.

Forget the bl**dy threads! The holes in the lid are almost certainly not
threaded. Even if they were, the J keys will hook onto the undersides of
the holes, allowing the lid to be lifted.

[Insert the hooked end of the keys into the holes with the handles
almost horizontal and facing each other. Then move the handles towards
the upright position - and lift.]

[dennis@home]

On 16/08/2016 17:37, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 16/08/2016 15:44, Maurice wrote:
>> The only gadget I could find that might have the needed screw fitment is
>> this on Amazon:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/zszhhva
>>
>> but not sure yet the screw fittings would suit.
>
> Forget the bl**dy threads! The holes in the lid are almost certainly not
> threaded. Even if they were, the J keys will hook onto the undersides of
> the holes, allowing the lid to be lifted.
>
> [Insert the hooked end of the keys into the holes with the handles
> almost horizontal and facing each other. Then move the handles towards
> the upright position - and lift.]

I will post another link to show what the handles look like but to be
honest I don't think it will help do so.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-349878-Manhole-Cover-Bent/dp/B01589XXNS

[Andy Burns]

dennis@home wrote:

> I will post another link to show what the handles look like but to be
> honest I don't think it will help do so.
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-349878-Manhole-Cover-Bent/dp/B01589XXNS

I'd expect those to buckle at the mere sight of a stone filled cover,
even before I saw they were Silverline.

[dennis@home]

I did say look like.
They claim to be hardened so they should be quite strong.

[Maurice]

On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

> you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
> holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.

Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.

As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
down
that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
hole,
what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?

It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
flange
into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
a
grip.
That's why I didn't pursue 'J' keys (or 'T; keys or 'D' keys).

And that's why I suspect - as I postulated earlier - something like an
expanding rawlplug might do the trick, by clamping within the bolt hole,
but
for all I know the bolt hole may be just a gap in the infill below which
the
receiving threaded flange sits, rather than a hole in a solid that could
cope
with the pressure of an expanding plug.

Still awaiting reply from www.manholecovers.co.uk w.r.t. their product:

"All trays manufactured locked with 4 galvanised
steel screws as standard. When unlocked screw holes act as lifting
eyes."

as to HOW the screw holes act as 'lifting eyes'...

Failing all else, I shall have to leave the situation as is, so that
if/when the drain unblocking guy next comes he will be able to remove the
bolts (which he failed to do on his first visit)...

Many thanks to all who have responded - much appreciated!

Perhaps there is still time to find a solution to 'take gold'...

[Tim+]

Maurice <mau...@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
>> holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.
>
> Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.

The penny drops!

>
> As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
> down
> that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
> So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
> hole,
> what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?

It's called "poking it in and wiggling it until it jams".

>
> It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
> flange
> into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
> a
> grip.

Obvious (to me anyway), you're not going to insert it into the threaded
parts of the hole.

From looking at the pictures of the new lid posted previously the screws
pass through a square section hole before reaching the threaded hole in the
lower flange. Just poke the J key through the hole and jam it up against
the side of the square section of tube.

> That's why I didn't pursue 'J' keys (or 'T; keys or 'D' keys).
>
> And that's why I suspect - as I postulated earlier - something like an
> expanding rawlplug might do the trick, by clamping within the bolt hole,
> but
> for all I know the bolt hole may be just a gap in the infill below which
> the
> receiving threaded flange sits, rather than a hole in a solid that could
> cope
> with the pressure of an expanding plug.
>
> Still awaiting reply from www.manholecovers.co.uk w.r.t. their product:
>
> "All trays manufactured locked with 4 galvanised
> steel screws as standard. When unlocked screw holes act as lifting
> eyes."
>
> as to HOW the screw holes act as 'lifting eyes'...

I think I've covered that.

>
> Failing all else, I shall have to leave the situation as is, so that
> if/when the drain unblocking guy next comes he will be able to remove the
> bolts (which he failed to do on his first visit)...
>
> Many thanks to all who have responded - much appreciated!
>
> Perhaps there is still time to find a solution to 'take gold'...
>

Given the minimal price of lifting keys on eBay, just buy some and try
them.

[GB]

On 17-Aug-16 12:10 PM, Maurice wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2016 14:33:48 +0000, Tim+ wrote:
>
>> you're going to have to hoik it out with something poked down the screw
>> holes. A J-shaped key sounds ideal.
>
> Seems I need to take another look at 'J' keys.
>
> As the bolt hole is 1/4" dia, would need to find a J key that will go
> down
> that and be the right diameter to permit 'hooking' underneath.
> So when the hook of the J key emerges from the lower end of the bolt
> hole,
> what is the trick for engaging the hook on the underside of the cover?
>
> It may well be that the lower end of the bolt hole abuts the threaded
> flange
> into which the bolt screws, so there would be no way the hook could find
> a
> grip.

Now you have the bolts out, you can use a thin screwdriver to work out
what is down there. Or shine a light down.

Are you over-thinking this problem?