Garage to workshop conversion: cladding the ceiling

[Bert Coules]

After a long gap for winter, injury and other boring impediments, my
low-budget garage to workshop conversion is underway again.

Following all the advice here, I lined the sectional concrete walls and
corrugated steel ceiling with Celotex-type insulation, then clad the walls
with OSB. Now it's time to clad the ceiling: I was thinking of using white
uPVC t&g boards from Wickes:

http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/120381

but for the area I have to cover (essentially four 4'x8' panels) the price
is higher than I'd ideally like. Any suggestions for alternatives? I want
to simply stick the cladding onto the foil surface of the Celotex, so it has
to be lightweight as well as more durable than the insulation.

Many thanks.

Bert

[Phil L]

The soffit board I buy is much like this, except it's 300mm wide (3 X wider
than wickes) and 5m in length (double the length), so it's six times bigger
and it's about the same price, a tenner a length.

Provided the celotex is fairly solid, you can stick it on with one hour
caulk - it'll never come off, so long as you can get a screw or other fixing
in the flap at the groove side

[Bert Coules]

Phil L

Thanks for the reply.

> The soffit board I buy is much like this, except it's 300mm wide (3 X

> wider than Wickes) and 5m in length (double the length)...

I wondered about using something like that, but the 100mm t&g boards are
particularly easy to work with, especially for a ceiling. And as you say,
the cost works out at about the same.

> ...it'll never come off, so long as you can get a screw or other fixing in

> the flap at the groove side

I'm not sure that's necessary. I've used this stuff before for ceilings in
a hallway and a bathroom, and adhesive (onto battens in both those cases)
was perfectly sufficient on its own.

I don't think I'm going to find anything else so easy, so light, so
maintenance-free and so attractive for less cost.

Bert

[John Rumm]

In mine, I just left the celotex bare since it was quite high up and out
of the way.

However something like a few sheets of hardboard would cover it and take
a coat of emulsion.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> In mine, I just left the celotex bare since it was quite high up and out
> of the way.

Mine, alas, is just inches above head height and pretty vulnerable to any
carelessly brandished tool or piece of metal or wood.

> However something like a few sheets of hardboard
> would cover it and take a coat of emulsion.

I wondered about hardboard. Would the weight be OK, do you think? I really
don't have room for any form of support other than simply glueing the board
to the Celotex, and I have this vision of finishing the entire ceiling,
standing back to admire it and then seeing hardboard (with or without a foil
facing) come crashing down on top of me...

Bert

[John Rumm]

On 09/04/2012 18:44, Bert Coules wrote:
> Phil L
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
>> The soffit board I buy is much like this, except it's 300mm wide (3 X
>> wider than Wickes) and 5m in length (double the length)...
>
> I wondered about using something like that, but the 100mm t&g boards are
> particularly easy to work with, especially for a ceiling. And as you
> say, the cost works out at about the same.

I think you missed the bit about the soffit board (sometimes called Vee
board) being 6 times the area for the same cost!

I have used the soffit board - and its quite easy to handle.

>> ...it'll never come off, so long as you can get a screw or other
>> fixing in the flap at the groove side
>
> I'm not sure that's necessary. I've used this stuff before for ceilings
> in a hallway and a bathroom, and adhesive (onto battens in both those
> cases) was perfectly sufficient on its own.
>
> I don't think I'm going to find anything else so easy, so light, so
> maintenance-free and so attractive for less cost.

The plastic stuff is light and easy. Whether it counts as "attractive"
depends on if you like white PVC I suppose. When up, it looks like a
narrow planked covering not unlike TG&V

[John Rumm]

A whole 8x4 sheet is only about 8 kg - so 250g per square foot (if you
will pardon the mixed units).

I would probably give the ceiling and the back of the board a spray with
the spray on contact adhesive beloved by carpet fitters. Wait a few mins
until its touch dry, and then offer up and press on firmly.

Wickes do sheets at 6 quid IIRC...

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> I think you missed the bit about the soffit board (sometimes called Vee
> board) being 6 times the area for the same cost!

I did, you're right, thanks. Sorry, Phil L, I completely misread your post.
I'll see if I can find a supplier whose delivery charges don't offset the
price advantage.

Bert

[John Rumm]

Its easy to collect on a roof rack, however remember to take a log 4x2
with you or similar to tie it too - cause it flops about otherwise!

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> A whole 8x4 sheet is only about 8 kg - so 250g per square foot (if you
> will pardon the mixed units).

With pleasure. That sounds not too bad.

> Wickes do sheets at 6 quid IIRC...

Plus delivery, of course, which would just about double the overall cost.
Still cheaper than the 100mm t&g though, though the wider boards you and
Phil L mentioned sound like the best bet of all.

Bert

[Nick Odell]

My first thought is corrugated plastic boards - the sort of thing used
for Estate Agents signs these days. It's very light in weight (down to
270g per sq mtr) and available in white and other colours and in sizes
up to 4m x 2m. But, whilst I'd expect the cost of a packaging material
to be pretty low, I've not been able to find actual prices or find out
about flamability.

Google took me to this site:
http://www.samuelgrant.co.uk/prodpage.asp?productid=144

Nick

[NT]

I'd go with plasterboard, 9mm. PVA sticks well to both foil a dpaper,.
You'd need a couple of deadmen/deadmans and a couple of sticks for an
hour whie it dries.


NT

[John Rumm]

If doing PB I would glue it with expanding foam...

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> I'd go with plasterboard, 9mm...

Thanks for the thought but I can't help thinking that plasterboard would be
as vulnerable to knocks as the Celotex is.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Nick Odell wrote:

> My first thought is corrugated plastic boards - the sort of thing used
> for Estate Agents signs these days.

Thanks for the suggestion. I had wondered about that stuff but haven't
seriously looked into it. Like you, I've no idea of prices. I'll see what
I can find.

Bert

[NT]

On Apr 9, 8:29 pm, John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> On 09/04/2012 19:59, NT wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 12:51 pm, "Bert Coules"<m...@bertcoules.co.uk>  wrote:
> >> After a long gap for winter, injury and other boring impediments, my
> >> low-budget garage to workshop conversion is underway again.
>
> >> Following all the advice here, I lined the sectional concrete walls and
> >> corrugated steel ceiling with Celotex-type insulation, then clad the walls
> >> with OSB.  Now it's time to clad the ceiling: I was thinking of using white
> >> uPVC t&g boards from Wickes:
>
> >>http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/120381
>
> >> but for the area I have to cover (essentially four 4'x8' panels) the price
> >> is higher than I'd ideally like.  Any suggestions for alternatives?  I want
> >> to simply stick the cladding onto the foil surface of the Celotex, so it has
> >> to be lightweight as well as more durable than the insulation.
>
> >> Many thanks.
>
> >> Bert
>
> > I'd go with plasterboard, 9mm. PVA sticks well to both foil a dpaper,.
> > You'd need a couple of deadmen/deadmans and a couple of sticks for an
> > hour whie it dries.
>
> If doing PB I would glue it with expanding foam...

Poor Bert could end up with a very low ceiling :)


NT

[NT]

Its far tougher than celotex, but of course nothing like OSB. I dont
know how much painting cement slurry onto it would toughen it up -
just cement and water.


NT

[NT]

or maybe a soak with pva


NT

[John Rumm]

Only if you let it expand - it works well as PU glue as well ;-)

[fred]

In article <UfSdnV5xypgctR7S...@brightview.co.uk>, John
Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> writes

>On 09/04/2012 19:08, Bert Coules wrote:
>> John Rumm wrote:
>>
>>> In mine, I just left the celotex bare since it was quite high up and
>>> out of the way.
>>
>> Mine, alas, is just inches above head height and pretty vulnerable to
>> any carelessly brandished tool or piece of metal or wood.
>>
>>> However something like a few sheets of hardboard
>>> would cover it and take a coat of emulsion.
>>
>> I wondered about hardboard. Would the weight be OK, do you think? I
>> really don't have room for any form of support other than simply glueing
>> the board to the Celotex, and I have this vision of finishing the entire
>> ceiling, standing back to admire it and then seeing hardboard (with or
>> without a foil facing) come crashing down on top of me...
>
>A whole 8x4 sheet is only about 8 kg - so 250g per square foot (if you
>will pardon the mixed units).
>
>I would probably give the ceiling and the back of the board a spray with
>the spray on contact adhesive beloved by carpet fitters. Wait a few mins
>until its touch dry, and then offer up and press on firmly.
>

Damp getting into the hardboard might be an issue in a shed/workshop so
maybe 6mm ply? Also less rough on the fixing side so better for
sticking.

Either way I'd be nervous with spray stuff for a ceiling so would go old
school with manually applied stuff:

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p38902

Pricey at 25quid so maybe PU foam as you suggest elsewhere but at least
this is contact so no need to prop.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Bert Coules]

"NT" <meow...@care2.com> wrote in message
news:44d46ead-cf04-4e17...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> I don't know how much painting cement slurry

> onto it would toughen it up - just cement and water.

It would add a fair bit to the weight, though, surely? And plasterboard
would be heavy enough to begin with.

Bert

[NT]

On Apr 9, 9:50 pm, John Rumm <see.my.signat...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> On 09/04/2012 21:31, NT wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 9, 8:29 pm, John Rumm<see.my.signat...@nowhere.null>  wrote:
> >> On 09/04/2012 19:59, NT wrote:
>
> >>> On Apr 9, 12:51 pm, "Bert Coules"<m...@bertcoules.co.uk>    wrote:
> >>>> After a long gap for winter, injury and other boring impediments, my
> >>>> low-budget garage to workshop conversion is underway again.
>
> >>>> Following all the advice here, I lined the sectional concrete walls and
> >>>> corrugated steel ceiling with Celotex-type insulation, then clad the walls
> >>>> with OSB.  Now it's time to clad the ceiling: I was thinking of using white
> >>>> uPVC t&g boards from Wickes:
>
> >>>>http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/120381
>
> >>>> but for the area I have to cover (essentially four 4'x8' panels) the price
> >>>> is higher than I'd ideally like.  Any suggestions for alternatives?  I want
> >>>> to simply stick the cladding onto the foil surface of the Celotex, so it has
> >>>> to be lightweight as well as more durable than the insulation.
>
> >>>> Many thanks.
>
> >>>> Bert
>
> >>> I'd go with plasterboard, 9mm. PVA sticks well to both foil a dpaper,.
> >>> You'd need a couple of deadmen/deadmans and a couple of sticks for an
> >>> hour whie it dries.
>
> >> If doing PB I would glue it with expanding foam...
>
> > Poor Bert could end up with a very low ceiling :)
>
> Only if you let it expand - it works well as PU glue as well ;-)

One time I used expanding foam I did just that. I used a stack of
books to jam the piece firmly in place. Next day I saw the foam had
exerted huge force and that bit of ceiling was a lot lower until i
found a round tuit one day


NT

[NT]

Wouldnt add more than 100 grams a board, once dry.


NT

[Adam Aglionby]

Known by the Australians as Coro, here as Correx ,Coroplast ,
sometimes as twin wall corrugated plastic but that usually brings up
clear polycarbonate,PC, roofing sheet.

Its a great material for making and lining, flutes seem to make a good
insulator, think of it as a waterproof corrugated cardboard, one major
downside though, its polypropylene,PP, which is resistant to gluing by
just about anything, hot melt will hold it but has no shear strength,
mechanical fixings are a better bet, plastic redidrivers work really
well ;-) as well as folding it on itself:

http://pages.videotron.com/plastkut/

2mm is common as flooring protection sheet, 4mm is common sign
thickness and self rigid in a 8 x4, about a tenner plus VAT around
here.

Cheers
Adam

[John Rumm]

The trick seems to be to let it expand a bit before offering it up, then
when you push it on, you squeeze most of the gas out. There is also a
board fix foam which is designed to expand less than the normal one:

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhesives%20&%20Sealants/Expanding%20Foam/Dry%20Wall%20Foam%20Fix/d180/sd2857/p60449

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> I think you missed the bit about the soffit board (sometimes called Vee
> board) being 6 times the area for the same cost!

I thought I did, but...

Phil L's boards are (if I understand correctly) 300mm x 5m and cost £10
each: that's ten pounds for 1.5sq m.

Yes, the Wickes version is 100mm x 2.5m, but they cost £10 *for a pack of
five*: 1.25sq m.

So the costs are much closer than you and I thought. Even more so if Phil's
product price doesn't include VAT, which the Wickes price does.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> Wouldn't add more than 100 grams a board, once dry.

That's fascinating. I thought it would be far more.


NT

[Bert Coules]

It's probably just me, but I've never had much luck with expanding (or even
minimally-expanding) foam: horrible, messy stuff which goes everywhere and
is next to impossible to clean up properly. Mind you, I've only ever used
the self-contained spray cans; I've been told (here, I think) that the
gun-type canisters are a lot better.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Adam Aglionby wrote:

> Known by the Australians as Coro, here as Correx ,Coroplast ,

> sometimes as twin wall corrugated plastic... one major
> downside though, it's polypropylene, PP, which is resistant to gluing by
> just about anything...

That's a particularly big downside for my application: sticking whatever I
use to the foil-surfaced Celtox is definitely my preferred option.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

Phil L wrote:

> The soffit board I buy is much like this, except it's 300mm wide (3 X

> wider than wickes) and 5m in length (double the length), so it's six times
> bigger and it's about the same price, a tenner a length.

The best price I've so far found is from The PVC Trade Centre: £9.14 incl
VAT for a 300m x 5m length, with free delivery: http://tinyurl.com/ceb8dkc
.

That works out about £17 below the cost of the Wickes 100mm t&g for the area
I need to cover. A decent saving.

Bert

[NT]

How would you get more than 100g of cement to soak in? I dont know
what the weight ratio of dust to water is, but you'd be talking kilos
of water just to get 100g cement into the board.


NT

[John Rumm]

They make it easier to apply...

for board fixing, you just squirt a bead of the stuff around the board a
few inches in from the edge. A few extra dabs or line to fill in the big
gaps in the middle. You can do that with it laying flat or lent against
a wall. Then leave for a min or two and push into place.

Get a can of the foam cleaner (basically a large aerosol acetone spray)
- cleans up the wet stuff easily.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> for board fixing...

Thanks for that. I might give it another go, once I've decided on the
cladding.

> Get a can of the foam cleaner...

> cleans up the wet stuff easily.

I've usually had a problem with the stuff going off too quickly to clean
while it's wet.

Bert

[Phil L]

Aye.
That £17 will pay for the adhesive - I used 1h caulk when I put it on my
kitchen ceiling and bathroom walls 3 years back and it's solid, but on the
ceiling I fixed it with half inch screws through the groove side prior to
slotting the next piece in.
You'd probably be better with an instant grab adhesive if you can't get a
mechanical fix

[Bert Coules]

Phil L wrote:

> You'd probably be better with an instant grab adhesive if you can't get a
> mechanical fix

Yes, that's what I've used before, with the Wickes 100mm version.
Obviously, length for length the 300mm will be heavier, but I imagine
something like Evostick's Sticks Like... will hold it perfectly well.

Bert

[John Rumm]

I usually find it takes half an hour or so to skin over - and even then
its usually still full of wet stickyness if you disturb it in any way.

[NT]

I presume PVA would work too, but would need a few dilute coats to
soak in as far as possible.


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> I presume PVA would work too...

I think I'd be happier with that as an alternative. Thanks for the thought.

Bert

[fred]

In article <F_qdnUbxzeNNIhjS...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert
Coules <ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes

>NT wrote:
>
>> I presume PVA would work too...
>
>I think I'd be happier with that as an alternative. Thanks for the thought.
>

Way too heavy for gluing in my view and any damp ingress could make for
a dramatic failure. Without additional mechanical fixing I would stick
with the plastic, 6mm ply or hardboard as a last resort.

How did you fix the insulation in the end? Did you go for the 50mm?

[NT]

On Apr 11, 9:36 pm, fred <n...@for.mail> wrote:
> In article <F_qdnUbxzeNNIhjSnZ2dnUVZ8qCdn...@brightview.co.uk>, Bert

> Coules <m...@bertcoules.co.uk> writes>NT wrote:
>
> >> I presume PVA would work too...
>
> >I think I'd be happier with that as an alternative.  Thanks for the thought.
>
> Way too heavy for gluing in my view and any damp ingress could make for
> a dramatic failure. Without additional mechanical fixing I would stick
> with the plastic, 6mm ply or hardboard as a last resort.
>
> How did you fix the insulation in the end? Did you go for the 50mm?

The idea was to soak with pva to toughen it up some. I'd definitely
have a few screws a board at least for the resons you say.


NT

[Bert Coules]

Fred wrote:

> Way too heavy for gluing in my view and any damp ingress could make for a

> dramatic failure....

On reflection, I agree. I'm going to use 300mm uPVC cladding, which gives
the same effect as the 100mm t&g I originally considered, but works out
cheaper and will (hopefuly) go up quicker.

> How did you fix the insulation in the end? Did you go for the 50mm?

50mm on the walls, push-fit between tiling battens screwed to the concrete
sectional sides and then clad with OSB, 25mm on the ceiling, supported by
tiling battens screwed to the original cross-member joists. With two
secondhand (and extremely cheap) uPVC windows and an ex-display Compton
garage door, I'm quite pleased with the results so far.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> I usually find it takes half an hour or so to skin over - and even then
> its usually still full of wet stickyness if you disturb it in any way.

You're right, of course. My experience with the stuff was so unpleasant
that I seem to have blocked out my memory of the details...

Bert

[John Rumm]

;-) yup, when it goes pear shaped, things can end up seriously sticky
and covered in the stuff in no time!

Being sparing is the key usually

[gri...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 19:03:39 +0100, "Bert Coules"
<ma...@bertcoules.co.uk> wrote:

>I've been told (here, I think) that the
>gun-type canisters are a lot better.

Utterly, yes.
A recent convert to gun-type foam, I've found it invaluable.
A big plus is the economy of use - a hand-held can tends to belt it
out quickly, but the gun can be precisely controlled to lay down a
bead of just enough. I reckon I'm getting twice as much use out of a
can with the gun.

[Bert Coules]

> A recent convert to gun-type foam, I've found it invaluable.

> A big plus is the economy of use...

Yes, that's what I've been told, though I've never tried it. Nice to have
the confirmation: thanks for the comment.

Bert

[Bert Coules]

I wrote:

> On reflection, I agree. I'm going to use 300mm uPVC cladding, which gives
> the same effect as the 100mm t&g I originally considered, but works out

> cheaper and will (hopefully) go up quicker.

Halfway through the job and it's clear that I was mistaken. The wider
panels are far trickier to handle above head height than the 100mm ones and
are also considerably heavier than I thought they'd be. Putting the
adhesive (Sticks Like...) onto them before offering them up only makes
things worse. I wish now that I'd used the more expensive but far more
ceiling-cladding-friendly narrower lengths.

Bert

[NT]

I assume youre using a deadman to take the weight?


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> I assume you're using a deadman to take the weight?

Yes, but since the panels are far more flexible along their length than,
say, plasterboard, I could do with more than one: I'll rectify that for the
rest of the job.

Bert

[NT]

Yup. Attaching an offcut to a bit of 2x0.5 is dead easy


NT

[Bert Coules]

NT wrote:

> Yup. Attaching an offcut to a bit of 2x0.5 is dead easy

A complication with the t&g panels is that (fairly obviously) the t has to
be fully fitted into the g along the entire length. The panels I'm using
are a very tight fit and it's proved quite awkward so far to either offer up
the board and then slide it into position or marry the connecting edges with
the panel angled down and then press it home upwards.

I'll probably be just about on the verge of getting the hang of it by the
time I reach the last panel.

Bert

[John Rumm]

Sounds like a couple of dead man props sprung in loosely to allow some
movement of the board, then a length of scrap board or wood to interface
with the free tongue or groove, which will allow you to tap it home with
a persuader!

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> Sounds like a couple of dead man props sprung in loosely to allow some
> movement of the board, then a length of scrap board or wood to interface
> with the free tongue or groove, which will allow you to tap it home with a
> persuader!

Thanks for that. It's pretty much the technique I arrived at, though it
gets a tad tricky when fitting the final panel which butts up with no
persuading room against the timber joists which cross the garage. In the
two bays I've done so far, that final length has had to be cut narrower than
the others (since the makers of the garage foolishly didn't make the space
between joists an exact multiple of 300mm) which has the happy effect of
making it both lighter and easier to handle. Still not easy getting the
tongue and groove together though.

In the next bay I might try removing the rear portion of the groove
altogether. so the narrow board can just be pressed into place rather than
slid home. The adhesive should be perfectly adequate to hold it in place.

Bert

[John Rumm]

On 30/04/2012 11:36, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a couple of dead man props sprung in loosely to allow some
>> movement of the board, then a length of scrap board or wood to
>> interface with the free tongue or groove, which will allow you to tap
>> it home with a persuader!
>
> Thanks for that. It's pretty much the technique I arrived at, though it
> gets a tad tricky when fitting the final panel which butts up with no
> persuading room against the timber joists which cross the garage. In the

What you need there is a hook... i.e. a bit of flat metal about a foot
long with the last half inch bent over into a right angle. The same on
both ends - but on opposite sides. You can then hook that in the gap at
the edge, and hit the other tab to pull it into place rather than push it.

Alternatively - just use a long thing thing and a block against a wall
as a fulcrum, and leaver it into place.

> two bays I've done so far, that final length has had to be cut narrower
> than the others (since the makers of the garage foolishly didn't make
> the space between joists an exact multiple of 300mm) which has the happy
> effect of making it both lighter and easier to handle. Still not easy
> getting the tongue and groove together though.
>
> In the next bay I might try removing the rear portion of the groove
> altogether. so the narrow board can just be pressed into place rather
> than slid home. The adhesive should be perfectly adequate to hold it in
> place.

Yup, that could work.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> What you need there is a hook... i.e. a bit of flat metal about a foot
> long with the last half inch bent over into a right angle. The same on
> both ends - but on opposite sides.

Like a laminate flooring lever, you mean. I have one of them - but the
problem with that, and with a lengthier thing, is that without a spare
spacer-offcut to take the pressure, PVC cladding is very easy to damage.

So my lose-the-rear-part-of-the-groove approach sounds like the favourite.

Incidentally, I looked at your shed/workshop project which you mentioned in
another thread. Lovely stuff.

Bert

[John Rumm]

On 30/04/2012 14:06, Bert Coules wrote:
> John Rumm wrote:
>
>> What you need there is a hook... i.e. a bit of flat metal about a foot
>> long with the last half inch bent over into a right angle. The same on
>> both ends - but on opposite sides.
>
> Like a laminate flooring lever, you mean. I have one of them - but the

Yup, that's the fellow...

> problem with that, and with a lengthier thing, is that without a spare
> spacer-offcut to take the pressure, PVC cladding is very easy to damage.

Chop a thin bit of groove off a bit of waste board?

> So my lose-the-rear-part-of-the-groove approach sounds like the favourite.
>
> Incidentally, I looked at your shed/workshop project which you mentioned
> in another thread. Lovely stuff.

It was a shame I had to leave that one behind... then again it was
getting too small! It was nice to work in though - never felt damp and
was easy to get to working temperature in about 10 mins.

The current workshop was a single skin brick building, which I gave the
PIR foam and ply treatment to. Again it makes a world of difference.

[Bert Coules]

John Rumm wrote:

> Chop a thin bit of groove off a bit of waste board?

Hmm, that could work, depending on the clearance. I'll take a look.

Bert