No earth in lighting circuit?

[The Medway Handyman]

No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room
and asked me to fit it.

Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the
switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting
circuits weren't earthed?

I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is
not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up...

What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
I can reinforce my argument?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

[John Rumm]

On 12/12/2014 09:09, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room
> and asked me to fit it.
>
> Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the
> switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting
> circuits weren't earthed?
>
> I've told her it can't be fitted.

Well there is a way... but she may not like it!

> No 1 daughter, like most females, is
> not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up...

The "proper" solution is to rewire the circuit completely.

The next best is to:

1) fit a RCBO for the lighting circuit in question (and any other
similar ones)
2) Fix a sticker on the CU highlighting the circuits without earths and
pointing out that all accessories must be Class II

The cheating alternative, if she really *must* have the fitting is:

1) Disconnect the existing line in and out cables from the rose, and
join them in a wago box or similar, and poke em back into the ceiling.
2) Find a nearby socket circuit, fit a FCU with 3A fuse, and take a feed
from it to the light. Power the lamp from that. If not also replacing
the switch drop wire then make sure she does not want a class I fancy
metal switch.

> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
> I can reinforce my argument?

Electrocution mainly...

More background here:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Lighting_Circuits_Without_an_Earth


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[meow...@care2.com]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:50:35 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
> On 12/12/2014 09:09, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> > No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room
> > and asked me to fit it.
> >
> > Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the
> > switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting
> > circuits weren't earthed?
> >
> > I've told her it can't be fitted.

snip

One other option sometimes is to bring the fitting upto Class 2 standard.


NT

[harryagain]

"The Medway Handyman" <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Igyiw.45126$Kl4....@fx01.am4...

> No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room and
> asked me to fit it.
>
> Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the
> switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting
> circuits weren't earthed?
>
> I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is
> not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up...
>
> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so I
> can reinforce my argument?
>

Just run a separate earth wire. Ideally go round the other light positions
too.
It should go back to the consumer unit, not to the nearest socket.

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
> I can reinforce my argument?

Death, mostly.

Is No. 1 daughter the paramedic?

Another option not so far mentioned is to supply via an isolating transformer i.e. extra low voltage, and use 12 volt lamps or leds. 12 volt SBC and SES lamps are fairly readily available - try cpc.

Owain

[therustyone]

There are currently a lot of metal (usually chrome plated) floor and desk lamps in all the stores which lack any earth connection. Are these compliant with any regs?

[Andy Burns]

therustyone wrote:

> There are currently a lot of metal (usually chrome plated) floor and
> desk lamps in all the stores which lack any earth connection. Are
> these compliant with any regs?

If they have the "two squares" double insulated symbol, they ought to be ...

[Andrew Gabriel]

In article <c1b65cf7-1fc4-4203...@googlegroups.com>,

I converted some living room lighting (3-lamp pendant and 2 wall lamps) to
use 12V capsule lamps. Main reason was they were on a rather expensive X10
dimmer which I wanted to retain, whilst not wanting to run mains filament
lamps anymore. A secondary effect was that halving the power of the lamps
when moving to 12V still resulted in lots more light in the room, because
the 12V filament are very much more efficient than the mains filament lamps.
(This was before LED retrofits were around, but there aren't yet any
suitable for these anyway.)

I had to rewire the 3-lamp fitting to handle the much higher current, and
I had to use 4mm² T&E to connect it to the 12V transformer so as not to
lose too much voltage in the cable. I stuck with T&E so it can be converted
back to mains if required anytime in the future without rewiring the fixed
wiring inside the ceiling.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

[The Medway Handyman]

On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>> I can reinforce my argument?
>
> Death, mostly.

Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
and she could turn to power off when she did it.

>
> Is No. 1 daughter the paramedic?

Yes.

>
> Another option not so far mentioned is to supply via an isolating transformer i.e. extra low voltage, and use 12 volt lamps or leds. 12 volt SBC and SES lamps are fairly readily available - try cpc.
>
> Owain
>
>

[Paul Herber]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:50:18 +0000, The Medway Handyman <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>>> I can reinforce my argument?
>>
>> Death, mostly.
>Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
>and she could turn to power off when she did it.

and if the switch is in the neutral then it's frying time.



--
Regards, Paul Herber, Sandrila Ltd.
http://www.sandrila.co.uk/

[spuorg...@gowanhill.com]

On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
> and she could turn to power off when she did it.

Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment.

Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about?

Owain

[Adam Funk]

On 2014-12-12, Paul Herber wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 17:50:18 +0000, The Medway Handyman <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>>>> I can reinforce my argument?
>>>
>>> Death, mostly.
>>Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
>>and she could turn to power off when she did it.
>
> and if the switch is in the neutral then it's frying time.

That's something TMH could check (& fix if necessary), isn't it?

How common is/was it to switch the neutral instead of the live?

[John Rumm]

Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings
because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way!

[harryagain]

"The Medway Handyman" <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jVFiw.52274$dG.3...@fx32.am4...

> On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>>> I can reinforce my argument?
>>
>> Death, mostly.
> Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
> and she could turn to power off when she did it.

If it's a two way switch how would she know?
Even a one way switch, most people don't know which way is on.

[Rod Speed]

"harryagain" <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:m6gnma$pmp$2...@dont-email.me...

Bullshit.

[PeterC]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 03:32:36 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

> On 12/12/2014 19:43, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 5:50:10 PM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>> Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
>>> and she could turn to power off when she did it.
>>
>>
>> Protection by placing out of reach is not acceptable in a domestic environment.
>>
>> Supposing there's a small child in the room waving a conductive light-sabre or similar about?
>
> Not to mention the times I have hit my head on peoples light fittings
> because they though that at 6'+ they would be safely out of anybodies way!

My last GF's place has metal fittings and plates and no earth on the
circuits. Two of the 'chandelier'-type are about 6' 2" from the floor - just
enough to look high but a couple of inches too low.
So far, no shock.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

[PeterC]

Pull-switch, that is.

[fred]

In article <Igyiw.45126$Kl4....@fx01.am4>, The Medway Handyman
<davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes

>No 1 daughter has bought a fancy metal chandelier for the dining room
>and asked me to fit it.
>
>Upon unscrewing the ceiling rose, there is no earth. Isn't one in the
>switch either, so I'm guessing the wiring dates from when lighting
>circuits weren't earthed?
>
>I've told her it can't be fitted. No 1 daughter, like most females, is
>not easily dissuaded once she has made her mind up...
>
>What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>I can reinforce my argument?
>

The short answer is that Class 1 equipment _must_ be earthed, it will
say so in the instructions. Otherwise there is a risk to the user of
electrocution if there a fault.

The long answer is that the designer made reliance on an earth
connection to guarantee its safe operation. It is likely that a single
fault within the appliance (eg. chafing of a single layer of insulation)
could result in the metalwork becoming live and so to cover that failure
mode it is earthed to protect the user. Without the earth, in those
circumstances, the user could receive a fatal electric shock.

You can get metal cased class 2 lamps/products too but they have been
designed in such a way that a single fault will not expose the user to a
risk of shock. They are designed such that it would take 2 distinct and
separate failures[1] to put the user at risk. As a result they are much
safer and so can be used without an earth. This is represented in the
class 2 'double insulated' square within a square symbol.

Having heard you mention your daughter's background here before I was
surprised that she would be so carefree about a safety related issue.
Rules and procedures, sod it, just slap the defib on and set to max,
CLEAR, nah, that's for wooses . . . .

[1] technically it is possible to use 'reinforced' insulation where it
is not practical to use 2 separate ones.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[ARW]

"harryagain" <harry...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:m6gnma$pmp$2...@dont-email.me...
>

> "The Medway Handyman" <davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jVFiw.52274$dG.3...@fx32.am4...
>> On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed,
>>>> so
>>>> I can reinforce my argument?
>>>
>>> Death, mostly.
>> Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
>> and she could turn to power off when she did it.
>
> If it's a two way switch how would she know?

Take out fuse or switch off MCB.

--
Adam

[Rod Speed]

"ARW" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m6hs1b$m6u$1...@dont-email.me...

Not a great idea to have to do that, particularly
given that someone else could well change the
bulb and not realise that that needs to be done.

She's unlikely to be too keen in a fucking great
sign on the ceiling next to the new fancy chandelier
that says that has to be done for a bulb change.

And doesn't do a damned thing about kids swinging
conductive stuff around and hitting it either.

[meow...@care2.com]

The differences between a modern class 1 & Class 2 product are fairly minor, and its often very easy to turn 1 into 2, hence my suggestion. In a lot of cases it requires nothing more than a cable tie.

Main requirements for class 2:
1. 2 layers of insulation (or occasionally reinforced insulation) between live & case
2. Means of preventing a single broken wire end from touching the case. A cable tie attaching L to N, thus preventing one from touching case if it comes adrift is often enough.

And fwiw the risk in using an unearthed _modern_ metal chandelier is actually very small. We take far bigger risks daily without batting an eyelid.


NT

[John Rumm]

On 12/12/2014 17:50, The Medway Handyman wrote:
> On 12/12/2014 11:07, spuorg...@gowanhill.com wrote:
>> On Friday, December 12, 2014 9:08:59 AM UTC, The Medway Handyman wrote:
>>> What are the dangers of a class 1 lighting fitment not being earthed, so
>>> I can reinforce my argument?
>>
>> Death, mostly.

> Her argument is that it would only ever be touched when changing a bulb
> and she could turn to power off when she did it.

The problem is that insulation failure (or any number of other causes)
could make it live. Normally earthing ensures that it can only be live
for a very short period of time - in likelihood preventing a shock in
the first place, and making it far less dangerous if you happen to be
unlucky enough to get one.

Without earthing, a fault will leave it live permanently. And there it
will wait, until it bites someone having a stretch, wielding a vacuum
cleaner, moving a ladder etc.

[ARW]

"PeterC" <giraffe...@homecall.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1vxn4785d5nx4$.11qieij42cskr.dlg@40tude.net...

I have seen hundreds of such setups. The risks of a shock do not
dramatically increase just because there is no earth. You need a fault and
no earth to increase the risk of a shock.

--
Adam

[Bob Martin]

Like your brain, then.

[The Medway Handyman]

So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N
together, would that be safe?

[fred]

In article <Hlfjw.99008$tr6....@fx15.am4>, The Medway Handyman
<davi...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>>

>So, if I were to sleeve the live with some shrink wrap & tie the L & N
>together, would that be safe?
>

Nope because with the best will in the world you are (respectfully) not
competent to assess and re-design electrical equipment to make a safe
conversion from class 1 to class 2.

You do not know what other works may be required on it to make a safe
conversion and I don't think a series of what-ifs here will change that.

[meow...@care2.com]

I've not seen the item, so its hard to be definitive. Often yes, but there are a couple of potential areas that might need more work:
Metal lampholders often have nothing but a few mm of air between live terminal screws and case - if this is the case it doesnt meet Class 2 requirements.
L&N should both be double insulated from the case. Modern kit often uses double inuslated flex, but if not it will generally need sleeving or replacing
The point of tying L&N together is to prevent case contact if one breaks away - just check it will do this.
A choc block connector in a metal housing isnt double insulated, so would need sleeving or similar.


NT

[meow...@care2.com]

That's why we ask each other stuff before diying. This case is simple and orders of magnitude lower risk than most diy we do. You can fear up if you want though.


NT

[Andrew]

My fathers house was built in 1956 and had four wall lights in the
living room with nice 'shell' glasses. Step mother decided (that the
house was now hers) and to junk them in favour of some horrendous metal
carriage lights. Sparky obviously said, 'no earth, so I must fit an rcd'
- whole house. As they got older, the only bulbs came from tesco or M&S
where they do all their shopping (convenient parking).

ABout 2 years ago a cheap tesco bulb went pop and plunged whole house
into darkness. Step mother tried to change bulb from a 2-step ladder
using a torch - couldn't manage. Much swearing and arguing, so father
got up (aged 89 and with weak legs). Next thing he was on the floor with
leg bent at an awkward angle. By the time neighbour had been summoned
the damage was done, and he could hardly walk. Eventually doctor agreed
hip replacement was needed, which was done after only a short wait (In
South Wales too), and now he can get about again.

Moral of the tale. Sometimes the risk of electocution is far less than
the certainty of a fall if the house is plunged into darkness. The old
rewirable fuses would not have blown when a cheap bulb went pop. And
£10K was spent on a hip replacement that would never have been needed.

[Rod Speed]

"Andrew" <andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:MMSdnWgoneEQtBPJ...@bt.com...

There is no risk of electrocution at all if double insulated light fittings
had been used.

[tony sayer]

> Eventually doctor agreed
>hip replacement was needed, which was done after only a short wait (In
>South Wales too), and now he can get about again.
>
>Moral of the tale. Sometimes the risk of electocution is far less than
>the certainty of a fall if the house is plunged into darkness. The old
>rewirable fuses would not have blown when a cheap bulb went pop.


>And
>£10K was spent on a hip replacement that would never have been needed.
>

Yes but surely that hip replacement has bettered his mobility if nothing
else?..

A few people I know who have had them done have much better mobility!...
--
Tony Sayer