Repairing a rusty steel-framed barn

[BluntChisel]

My relatives have a steel-framed barn, and some of the steel frames are
seriously rusted where they meet the ground (please see first picture). I
don't know the state of the steel higher up, but it's rusty on the outside.

The barn is about 20m long, 7m wide, and 4m high at the ridge. It is
constructed from 6 steel frames, linked by heavy timbers. 4 of the frames
have 4 "legs", and presumably exert little lateral force on the ground. 2 of
the frames have only 2 legs, and presumably exert outwards forces where they
meet the ground. I'm more concerned about the 2-leg frames. Despite the
rust, there are no signs of imminent collapse.

I'm looking for ideas for repairing and strengthening the barn.
I'm fairly comfortable with bolting big bits of timber together and mixing
concrete. I'm considering replacing or complementing one of the rusty
"2-leg" frames with an over-specified wooden "4-leg" frame. What sort of
timber might be appropriate?

On the other hand, would this be a good excuse to buy some welding gear and
learn how to weld? What sort of equipment, steel, and perhaps formal
training would I need to replace a frame?

http://i56.tinypic.com/sq36yt.jpg (the main problem)
http://i55.tinypic.com/2hqxesj.jpg (shows a frame with "4 legs" in
foreground)
http://i54.tinypic.com/29za712.jpg (ridge joint)
http://i55.tinypic.com/33p537p.jpg
http://i51.tinypic.com/i2sy6v.jpg (shows a "2-leg" frame)

Thanks.

[Peter Crosland]

"BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg> wrote in message
news:4e7768c3$0$26295$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

I would suggest the owner gets urgent professional advice from a structural
engineer before any work is attempted and before anyone else is even allowed
in or near the building. The owner also needs to check their insurance
covers them because the premises could easily considered defective. The
possibilities for serious injury or even death by attempting an amateur
bodge are high. It is clearly not a job for someone who clearly has no idea
of what they are doing and what might be involved.

Peter Crosland

[John Williamson]

And in the meantime, pray that there are no high winds. If all the leg
bases are as corroded as the one you took a picture of, there's very
little strength left.
--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <T8qdndFtReeL8erT...@brightview.co.uk>, Peter
Crosland <g6...@yahoo.co.uk> writes

Hear, hear!

Wait for Tony Sayer:-)

I guess that barn pre-dates BS5502 agricultural barns by some distance.

Several obvious criticisms; the ridge joint needs strengthening, there
are no apparent wind braces and the steel used looks too light for the
roof pitch. At least it is clad in lightweight steel and not asbestos
cement.

There are issues with DIY welding for structural steelwork, particularly
if the building has any commercial use (used by employees or let out
etc.) I don't know the details but I think you need some form of
certification. You could probably find someone with a mobile welding set
and the right certificates.

An easy way round the ridge issue would be to fit tie beams at eaves
level. Connecting these to the uprights is problematic as you don't want
to drill holes. Some sort of collar perhaps.

Repairing the rusted upright looks straightforward. In the absence of
strong winds, the only load should be vertically downwards. This can
temporarily be carried by Acro props. Breaking out the foundation pad
might find sound steel. Modern box section steel comes in nesting sizes
but I don't know if you will find a tight fitting sleeve for what is
there. Two pieces of angle iron might be arranged to fit over the
existing but, as Peter says, this whole job requires professional
advice.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

[harry]

On Sep 19, 5:07 pm, "BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg> wrote:
> My relatives have a steel-framed barn, and some of the steel frames are
> seriously rusted where they meet the ground (please see first picture). I
> don't know the state of the steel higher up, but it's rusty on the outside.
>
> The barn is about 20m long, 7m wide, and 4m high at the ridge. It is
> constructed from 6 steel frames, linked by heavy timbers. 4 of the frames
> have 4 "legs", and presumably exert little lateral force on the ground. 2 of
> the frames have only 2 legs, and presumably exert outwards forces where they
> meet the ground. I'm more concerned about the 2-leg frames. Despite the
> rust, there are no signs of imminent collapse.
>
> I'm looking for ideas for repairing and strengthening the barn.
> I'm fairly comfortable with bolting big bits of timber together and mixing
> concrete. I'm considering replacing or complementing one of the rusty
> "2-leg" frames with an over-specified wooden "4-leg" frame. What sort of
> timber might be appropriate?
>
> On the other hand, would this be a good excuse to buy some welding gear and
> learn how to weld? What sort of equipment, steel, and perhaps formal
> training would I need to replace a frame?
>

> http://i56.tinypic.com/sq36yt.jpg (the main problem)http://i55.tinypic.com/2hqxesj.jpg (shows a frame with "4 legs" in
> foreground)http://i54.tinypic.com/29za712.jpg (ridge joint)http://i55.tinypic.com/33p537p.jpghttp://i51.tinypic.com/i2sy6v.jpg  (shows a "2-leg" frame)
>
> Thanks.

I would say this is a homemade building. Someone has got some second
hand material and set to with an electric welder maybe fifty years
ago. When I lived on a farm many of my neighbours did similar stuff,
somevery sucessfully.
Farmers are very handy self sufficient people.
There is no way of telling the quality of the welding, it needs
cleaning up and close examination.

As to the rotted bits at ground level the concrete and steel would
need to be cut away and new steel welded on and concreted in.
If you are handy, you could fix this yourself, no big deal if not it
will be an expensive repair unless you can do some of the preparation
yourself, maybe not worth it, hence demolition.
Support to the building may be needed while this is done or some of
the cladding removed. (Abestos?)

[Andy Dingley]

On Sep 19, 5:07 pm, "BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg> wrote:

> My relatives have a steel-framed barn, and some of the steel frames are
> seriously rusted where they meet the ground

Well that's well knackered, isn't it?

Did something similar for the neighbours a few years back. The basic
method was to Acro under the frames to take the weight off each leg,
then saw each leg off about 3' above ground level. The old leg and
(too small) concrete base was broken / lifted out, then a new leg set
in place in new concrete and welded. The joints were (AFAIR) a butt
weld in this 6" H girder and then narrow flat strap plates welded over
the outside of the webs.

Biggest pain was the need to repeat this eight times, rather than
being able to do all the digging, then all the lifting in one go, with
a fair wait between each step for concrete to cure. Even with a
tractor and front bucket on hand for lifting, it was a right nuisance
to get the old bases out. The steelwork was pretty easy in
comparison.

Dad's barn (a Wareings kit) uses 12" girder, but then he over-
engineered stuff even more than I do.

[fred]

A structural engineer told me years ago that the strongest thing about
a hay barn was the steel roof. And he wasn't joking. I've actually
seen a late 19th century/early 20th century barn where the only
structural steel was the legs and a tie bar between them with a
vertical round bar running up from the centre of this tie bar to the
ridge of the round roof. And it was still in use 20 years ago when I
saw it.

Do nissen huts (quonset to any visiting merkins) have much structural
steel in them. ISTR seeing them as just a curved roof ( to the ground)
structures with the corrugated panels just bolted together.

I'd follow the suggestions to use acro props and re-inforce each leg
where necessary. You might want to check the condition of the 7" x 4"
timber purlins though they were generally pressure treated.

Paul Mc Cann

[Andy Dingley]

On Sep 20, 11:42 am, fred <tpmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A structural engineer told me years ago that the strongest thing about
> a hay barn was the steel roof.

Depends on the barn design. Some (if they have wall plates, even if
they don't have walls) can be lifted by a crane without trouble,
because it's a rigid steel rectangle, diagonalised by its wind braces.
OTOH, most barns, including the one here, are a set of portal frames,
so there's a risk of it collapsing like dominoes towards one end,
unless there's something else to stop it. I think Dutch barns tend to
have a strong roof as a unit, because there are no sidewalls to
assist, but it isn't generally the case.

With this building repair here, I'd probably also diagonalise the side
walls (Xs of light tension rods, with turnbuckles) to stop the risk of
dominoes. I wouldn't trust those wooden purlins (or at least, not the
connection to them) to do it.

> Do nissen huts (quonset to any visiting merkins) have much structural
> steel in them.

They're _entirely_ structural steel. That outer skin is the
structure, that's why they have to be curved.

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 03:42:42 -0700 (PDT), fred <tpmc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Do nissen huts (quonset to any visiting merkins) have much structural
>steel in them. ISTR seeing them as just a curved roof ( to the ground)
>structures with the corrugated panels just bolted together.

Nissen huts have an internal frame, but Miracle Span buildings are
simple deep corrugated curved steel panels which bolt together to form
a series of arches which are then lifted to overlap.
Something like these, but the earlier ones were more of an arch; now
they have more squared sides.

http://www.miraclespan.co.uk/storage-buildings/

I dealt with them decades ago and was mightily impressed at how quick
and easily they could be erected - many of the smaller buildings were
put up by two blokes.

[BluntChisel]

Thanks for all the replies. To answer some questions; the barn is about 30
years old, and was built by someone with more farming than building
experience. The photos show the worst bits, the rest isn't quite as bad.
There's no asbestos. The wooden beams appear to be in better condition than
the steel frames. It's used for storage of cars, and most of the time
contains only swifts and rats.With suitable repairs, I think the barn has
some life left in it yet.

I will advise my relatives to be careful, and suggest they seek professional
advise sooner rather than later.

However, I suspect they would prefer a DIY approach, for various reasons. I
now realise this isn't an oportunity to learn to weld, but I'd like to
consider supplementing the existing steel frames with timber frames strong
enough to completely replace them eventually. We have woodworking
experience, but nothing on this scale. Can anyone suggest a book that would
describe how to design and build such a frame, eg. sizing of timber,
calculation of forces, safety margins, fixings, joints, foundations, etc ?

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:08:30 +0100, "BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg>
wrote:

>However, I suspect they would prefer a DIY approach, for various reasons. I
>now realise this isn't an oportunity to learn to weld,

Of course it is. Simply sign up for a welding night class and go at
it. Many thousands of farmers never formally learned to weld
(although, it could be said it might have been better if they did) and
happily repair gates and buildings. Happy in their ignorance,
perhaps, but a load of pigeon-shit weld is better than none at all.
I'm being unfair to farmers; plenty of them can weld quite well,
actually. :)

Back to your building; it's been said already, acro props and digging
up the old post bases, then fitting new and welding to the old is the
way to go. If you're not sure of the strength, add more. Simples.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <vqoh77hd93v890lma...@4ax.com>, Grimly
Curmudgeon <grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> writes

>On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:08:30 +0100, "BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg>
>wrote:
>
>>However, I suspect they would prefer a DIY approach, for various reasons. I
>>now realise this isn't an oportunity to learn to weld,
>
>Of course it is. Simply sign up for a welding night class and go at
>it. Many thousands of farmers never formally learned to weld
>(although, it could be said it might have been better if they did) and
>happily repair gates and buildings. Happy in their ignorance,
>perhaps, but a load of pigeon-shit weld is better than none at all.
>I'm being unfair to farmers; plenty of them can weld quite well,
>actually. :)

Umm... Stick welding (3.2mm rod) those uprights would need upwards of
120 amps. I don't think you would get that from a hobby welding set fed
from a 13 amp socket.

>
>Back to your building; it's been said already, acro props and digging
>up the old post bases, then fitting new and welding to the old is the
>way to go. If you're not sure of the strength, add more. Simples.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[harry]

Electric welding (stick welder)is no big deal. Thick material such as
this is a lot easier to weld than thin. The average tool user could do
it with an hour's instruction. As someone says, a toytown welder
won't be up to the job but welders can be hired. A small welder
could be used to tack the new stuff in place temporarily.

Cutting the old steel away is best done with oxy-acetylene cutter but
failing that, angle grinder.

The job is well within the scope of a good DIYer.

[Peter Crosland]

"BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg> wrote in message

news:4e78ba6b$0$26294$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

I really don't think you have got the message. Just entering, or working on,
a building that is in such poor condition could trigger an unexpected and
catastrophic collapse. That could easily result in the serious injury or
death. That might well result in the owners being prosecuted quite apart
from the personal trauma it would cause. You really would be extremely
foolish to have anything to do with it other than to warn your relatives of
the peril.

Peter Crosland

[tony sayer]

In article <NU$0XbNwb...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
<t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> scribeth thus

Umm ... what's my involvement in this Mr Lamb pray tell?...

--
Tony Sayer

[Tim Lamb]

In message <r0N5TMD1...@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
<to...@bancom.co.uk> writes

I had thought that you might point out the inadequacies of butt welded
rectangular steel section used for portal frame construction:-)

The last steel frame barn I erected was supplied with 175mm x 102mm I
beams and the ridge joint was reinforced with a full depth welded
gusset. Admittedly this was a 30' span but not wildly dissimilar.

regards
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Andrew Mawson]

"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:r0N5TMD1...@bancom.co.uk...

By the time you have faffed arround patching it up it would be much
simpler, and probably not much more expensive to replace it. I had
similar problems to cope with here - there was a two bay barn with
planning permission for a third bay, but the original two bays had
been recycled from elsewhere and errected on a sloping concrete pad so
the steelwork was not upright. I had to work with it as I couldn't
afford the time to re-submit plans to demolish and replace, it was not
at all certain it would be granted as we are in an 'area of
outstanding beauty'. Cobling the new bay on was great fun, as was
breaking out the floor to level it!!!!

BTW by the time I'd sandblasted the original steelwork it looked far
better than initial impressions and needed less fixing than I'd
thought. (The project was a good excuse to by a full size Hodge Clemco
sandblaster <G>)

AWEM

[fred]

On 21 Sep, 10:25, Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <r0N5TMD1naeOF...@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
> <t...@bancom.co.uk> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >In article <NU$0XbNwb6dOF...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Lamb
> ><t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> scribeth thus
> >>In message <T8qdndFtReeL8erTnZ2dnUVZ7sCdn...@brightview.co.uk>, Peter

The necessity for gussets in steel portal frames is dictated by the
sections used in the legs and rafters. If legs and rafters are of a
similar size and correctly calculated then gussets are not required.
They are used to allow smaller/cheaper sections be used.

If this barn has at least one bay of wind bracing in the legs and
roof, which it certainly should have, then the risk of a domino
collapse is negligible, assuming its not completely gerry built. If
the cladding and roofing is removed then there is no chance of a
domino collapse. Most of the strength built into steel portal frames
is to allow for 100 year snow/wind loads (I forget the exact number of
years). Without roofing or cladding these loads will be minimal..

Paul Mc Cann

Paul Mc Cann

[Steve Walker]

On 20/09/2011 22:06, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <vqoh77hd93v890lma...@4ax.com>, Grimly
> Curmudgeon <grimly...@REMOVEgmail.com> writes
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 17:08:30 +0100, "BluntChisel" <wef...@rge.rgrg>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> However, I suspect they would prefer a DIY approach, for various
>>> reasons. I
>>> now realise this isn't an oportunity to learn to weld,
>>
>> Of course it is. Simply sign up for a welding night class and go at
>> it. Many thousands of farmers never formally learned to weld
>> (although, it could be said it might have been better if they did) and
>> happily repair gates and buildings. Happy in their ignorance,
>> perhaps, but a load of pigeon-shit weld is better than none at all.
>> I'm being unfair to farmers; plenty of them can weld quite well,
>> actually. :)
>
> Umm... Stick welding (3.2mm rod) those uprights would need upwards of
> 120 amps. I don't think you would get that from a hobby welding set fed
> from a 13 amp socket.

Just had a glance at Machinemart and a basic hobby Clarke Arc welder is
185A. How long it can sustain that is prehaps another matter!

Steve Walker

[Tim Lamb]

In message <j5dj2b$itv$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Steve Walker
<st...@remove-this.walker-family.me.uk> writes

Gathering dust under a workbench, I have an old air cooled transformer
welder (the type where you alter the iron circuit to change the o/p
voltage). That would regularly blow 13 amp fuses with 3.2mm rods.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

[Andy Dingley]

On Sep 21, 7:24 am, harry <haroldhr...@aol.com> wrote:

> Electric welding (stick welder)is no big deal. Thick material such as
> this is a lot easier to weld than thin.

> The average tool user could do
> it with an hour's instruction.  

Bollocks. It will take at least a day's practice (and that would be a
hard day) to become at all competent.

IMHO, you can learn to weld from a good theory textbook (it's short
enough, but you do need it), some basic nous, no instructor at all
(although they don't hurt, they aren't essential), some application
and refusal to take shortcuts, and most importantly PRACTICE. If you
haven't got a wheelbarrow or so of small sheet scrap and welded the
lot into a solid lump (or similar volume of welding), then you haven't
practiced enough. You also need to start sectioning, polishing and
etching your welds while you're practicing, so as to understand what
you're achieving.

As always, Gibson's "Practical Welding" is my favourite.
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0333609573/codesmiths>

You also need to prepare the welds properly beforehand, and to
understand the construction of a multi-pass weld. I'm concerned about
descriptions of slipping tube sections inside each other, like some
sort of Lego. You need to weld this, and weld it in the right place,
not just slip it over - that way you can't get access where you need
it.

> As someone says, a toytown welder
> won't be up to the job but welders can be hired.   A small welder
> could be used to tack the new stuff in place temporarily.

It's a farm, I bet they have a decades-old oil-cooled Oxford already.

> Cutting the old steel away is best done with oxy-acetylene cutter but
> failing that, angle grinder.

You need a grinder to prepare the cut steel anyway, so why take two
bottles into the shower of sparks?

Besides which, this is a hay barn. It's hard enough to control grinder
sparks, let alone oxy-acetylene.

[Tim Lamb]

In message
<c4912d34-5330-4d75...@h7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Andy
Dingley <din...@codesmiths.com> writes

snip

>You also need to prepare the welds properly beforehand, and to
>understand the construction of a multi-pass weld. I'm concerned about
>descriptions of slipping tube sections inside each other, like some
>sort of Lego. You need to weld this, and weld it in the right place,
>not just slip it over - that way you can't get access where you need
>it.

Guilty:-)

I had concerns that in situ butt welding might not be practical for a
beginner and that a sleeve would provide some lateral stability to what
might be a weak portal arrangement. The bays with intermediate uprights
look strong enough.

>
>> As someone says, a toytown welder
>> won't be up to the job but welders can be hired.   A small welder
>> could be used to tack the new stuff in place temporarily.
>
>It's a farm, I bet they have a decades-old oil-cooled Oxford already.
>
>
>> Cutting the old steel away is best done with oxy-acetylene cutter but
>> failing that, angle grinder.
>
>You need a grinder to prepare the cut steel anyway, so why take two
>bottles into the shower of sparks?
>
>Besides which, this is a hay barn. It's hard enough to control grinder
>sparks, let alone oxy-acetylene.

Quite. Following the thread on burst grinder discs, it is essential
there is no compressive load on the leg to *grab* at breakthrough.

Job for an experienced professional.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

[Andy Dingley]

On Sep 22, 8:55 am, Tim Lamb <t...@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Job for an experienced professional.

In my village, I can turn to a stonemason and a steel fabricator
within a hundred yards. Both of them often manage to scare the crap
out of me (mostly when he picks up a chainsaw). On a job like this I'd
be watching them like a hawk, and _I'd_ be the one checking the Acrows.