Concrete built houses?
Anja Wolle
We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
simple nails to properly drilled holes?
Any comments, further references apppreciated,
Thanks, Anja :)
Gary Bonser
I purchased a concrete flat/house about three years ago and have found it to be
as warm/cold as a normal brick built house of comparable age. You will however
probably have problems concerning drilling into the walls and to a lesser
extent nailing. Normally when drilling if you are unlucky to hit a stone chip
etc give up and drill somewhere else. This only applies if going more than 10mm
deep. Having said this I have always managed to put everything up that I wanted
- radiators as well as the usual assortment of pictures. The main problem with
a concrete construction is the noise transmission - when drilling everyone in
the house will require ear plugs, so make sure you dont have noisy neighbours.
I can also guarantee that when you get the survey done the report will say
something along the lines of `fairly unusual construction', dont worry its
just unusual to find a concrete house although they have always been popular
with local authorities who normally built flats and maisonettes in concrete,
and your usual office block type of construction.
Lee Shepherd
In article <5egvet$l...@tom.cam.net.uk>, Anja Wolle
<Anja....@home.cam.net.uk> writes
>We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
>mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
>sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
>Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
>simple nails to properly drilled holes?
Please trust me and listen to what I have to say.
I work for a Local Authority (Sheffield), and a large proportion of our
stock are of this type of construction.
**Avoid them at all cost**
They are probably one of our biggest headaches, as normally 'standard'
repairs turn into a major problem. Also, concrete, especially the 1960's
stuff, deteriorates and WILL cause a major problem. It is not that long
ago that many Building Societies were refusing mortgages on them. If
they do offer you a mortgage, check the small print very, very
carefully.
Also, what sort of price are you paying? If it is very cheap, you may
consider the price advantage outways the other disadvantages. However,
bear in mind that you may have difficulty in future years when you come
to sell.
Regarding the vendors, they *would* assure you it is sound, wouldn't
they?
Finally, if you still decide to go ahead, spare no expense and get an
*independant* FULL structural survey done.
--
Lee Shepherd Error 726: Full Sig file unable to
l...@lshepher.demon.co.uk be delivered due to lack
http://www.lshepher.demon.co.uk of bandwidth.
David Roberts
Gary Bonser wrote:
> I can also guarantee that when you get the survey done the report will say
> something along the lines of `fairly unusual construction', dont worry its
> just unusual to find a concrete house although they have always been popular
> with local authorities who normally built flats and maisonettes in concrete,
> and your usual office block type of construction.
There's a most impressive "half timbered" mansion (Gregynog) in Powys
which is built entirely of concrete. It replaced an earlier house that
was burnt down. Somehow, a lot of the original oak panelling survived
and was re-used.
David
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Jon S Green
Anja....@home.cam.net.uk (Anja Wolle) wrote:
> We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
> mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
> sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
> Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
> simple nails to properly drilled holes?
We've got one, and it's fine. The ones pre-'52 are rather dodgy, but
our surveyor (we had a full structural) was completely happy about ours,
built '54, as were our mortgagors and conveyancer. We're in quite a
large estate, and we don't know anyone who's had problems. The build's
Laing Easy-Form.
Most D-I-Y has proven trouble-free and pretty similar to working with
brick. Occasionally you'll find that you're trying to drill into a
reinforcing rod, and you have to resite the hole; also the plaster
doesn't hold quite as well, otherwise no major problems.
We had more trouble by far with the Artex...
Jon
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John Schmitt
Anja Wolle wrote:
>
> We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
> mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
> sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
To paraphrase; "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"
> Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
> simple nails to properly drilled holes?
If the walls are reinforced, a 1960s house will only have 1/2" concrete
cover over the reinforcement (if present) so you may have problems
drilling into the walls if you do hit rebar. Someone else said stones in
the concrete can be difficult, and if you use a hammer drill they will be
difficult. However if you can get a ?Rawltool, which is a sort of manual
hammer-drill or punch affair, when you bottom out on a flint, a couple of
good whacks with a hammer, via the rawltool will sufficiently damage the
offending flint that the hammer drill will again make satisfactory
progress.
The other consideration in buying the place is the matter of the shallow
cover the reinforcing has, particularly on exterior walls. The
reinforcement in concrete is protected from corrosion by the excess lime
in the cement, but over a period of years, atmospheric carbon dioxide
reacts with the lime in a phenomenon known as carbonation. When the
carbonation reaches the reinforcing, it starts to corrode. the rust
occupies more space than the steel, and the surface concrete blows off.
This is expensive to remedy, and does not lend itself to DIY cures. If
you look at the horizontal parts of the T-trestles of the M4 elevated
section you can see a classic case of this, hence the repair work
necessary. (please do not do this while driving)
--
John Schmitt
Disclaimers Apply.
An Englishman in New York? No, an American in London.
angus
>We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
>mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
>sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
>Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
>simple nails to properly drilled holes?
>
>Any comments, further references apppreciated,
>Thanks, Anja :)
>
Can you give a bit more info... Precast panels? no fines? what kind
of thickness are you talking about and what part of the
country/exposure?
Harry
On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 19:54:26 GMT, Tovarich fee...@cqm.co.uk (angus)
Said:
>On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:38:05 GMT, Anja....@home.cam.net.uk (Anja
>Wolle) wrote:
>
>>We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
>>mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
>>sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
>>Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
>>simple nails to properly drilled holes?
>
>Can you give a bit more info... Precast panels? no fines? what kind
>of thickness are you talking about and what part of the
>country/exposure?
I seriously hope he didn't, I thought no one could be that stupid.
Hundreds of so - called "Reema" system built concrete houses were
built here in Leeds by the council in the '60s and then sold off at a
subsidy to the tenants in the @80's.
In the '90's most of them were claiming compensation from the council
&/or being re-housed.
Harry
--
That's an engineers job. If you listen to the scientists, you'll
end up getting the light program on it.
Harry Stottle *netcomuk.co.uk
Jon S Green
sto...@netcomuk.co.uk (Harry) wrote:
> >On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:38:05 GMT, Anja....@home.cam.net.uk (Anja
> >Wolle) wrote:
> >
> >>We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
> >>mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
> >>sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
> >>Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
> >>simple nails to properly drilled holes?
>
> I seriously hope he didn't, I thought no one could be that stupid.
>
> Hundreds of so - called "Reema" system built concrete houses were
> built here in Leeds by the council in the '60s and then sold off at a
> subsidy to the tenants in the @80's.
I think there's a lot of uninformed speculation here, interspersed with
specific horror stories.
We don't know the build method of the house Anja's proposing to buy.
"Concrete-built" covers a vast range of building methods. Unless and
until we're told the build method and builder (and exact date), _none_
of us can provide an informed opinion.
Jon (proud owner of a fine concrete house with no known problems)
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Anja Wolle
Thanks for all the replies to my original question, however vague it
may have been.
Thanks for all the comments regarding drilling holes and heating - now
that should be no problem then :-)
I have now been able to ascertain that the house was definitely built
post-1957 (not on that OS map) by the local authority (Cambridge), and
is of the 'in situ' or 'shuttering' type - not made up of pre-cast
panels, but cast on site. The floors are floorboards, not concrete. I
am having a full survey done, pointing out to the surveyor what we are
worried about. The houses in the next street are indeed panel-built
and have all been brought up to standard recently. And yes there is a
lot of horror-hype around. But current owners managed to get a
mortgage okay after the building society got their full survey, about
6 years ago.
I'm afraid that's all the techie stuff I know so far. An architect
aquaintance (of continental european training) said that concrete
doesn't 'breate' like bricks, thus leading to a higher degree of
dampness/moisture, necessitating air-bricks (are present) and the
like, or frequent thorough airing to prevent damp developing. Can
anyone substantiate *that* ?
Thanks again - soon I'll be able to post *proper* DIY queries!
Anja :)
P.S: dear Harry, I'm a girl :-)8
Jon S Green
Anja....@home.cam.net.uk (Anja Wolle) wrote:
> I'm afraid that's all the techie stuff I know so far. An architect
> aquaintance (of continental european training) said that concrete
> doesn't 'breate' like bricks, thus leading to a higher degree of
> dampness/moisture, necessitating air-bricks (are present) and the
> like, or frequent thorough airing to prevent damp developing. Can
> anyone substantiate *that* ?
That's entirely correct. DON'T BLOCK THE VENTS! (There'll be a couple
at both front and back.) Well, try not to anyway. When it's coldest in
winter, we close our bedroom vent at night, otherwise we keep 'em open.
If previous owners/tenants have blocked them over or decorated over
them, unblock 'em and fit replacement grilles.
You may find upstairs outside-corner rooms (esp. where the pitched roof
cuts the corner off the inside ceiling) get mould problems at ceiling
level. Treat the mould, then paint the ceiling (including the pitched
bit, if relevant) with bathroom paint. If you don't want the silk-sheen
effect that gives, overpaint that with ordinary matt emulsion when dry.
The important part is that you've established a moisture-proof membrane
against the roof.
Another point to make: keep the housepaint in good nick - it protects
the concrete, and that's pretty important. Basically, if/when you've
bought the place, paint it that summer, and at least as often afterwards
as the paint manufacturers recommend.
Jon
John Schmitt
In article <5f4tqn$s...@tom.cam.net.uk>, Anja....@home.cam.net.uk (Anja Wolle)
writes:
>I have now been able to ascertain that the house was definitely built
>post-1957 (not on that OS map) by the local authority (Cambridge), and
>is of the 'in situ' or 'shuttering' type - not made up of pre-cast
>panels, but cast on site. The floors are floorboards, not concrete. I
>am having a full survey done, pointing out to the surveyor what we are
>worried about.
If the surveyor does not know what a cover-meter is, and what the readings
mean, clip him 'round the ear and get someone who knows a good bit about
reinforced concrete. Before the question gets asked, a cover-meter gives an
indication of how much concrete is between the reinforcement and the big, bad
world. (cover) (see my earlier post on this thread for the ramifications of
poor concrete cover)
>And yes there is a lot of horror-hype around. But current owners managed to
>get a mortgage okay after the building society got their full survey, about 6
years ago.
Horror-hype is not a term I would use in this case. I will try to dig out the
statistics, but a relatively large proportion, probably >20% of 60s concrete
dwellings/structures have needed considerable remedial work due to spalling
from rebar corrosion.
>I'm afraid that's all the techie stuff I know so far. An architect aquaintance
>(of continental european training) said that concrete doesn't 'breate' like
>bricks, thus leading to a higher degree of dampness/moisture, necessitating
>air-bricks (are present) and the like, or frequent thorough airing to prevent
>damp developing. Can anyone substantiate *that* ?
I take it the pyto means "breathe" rather than "berate". concrete generally has
a lower permeability, and higher thermal conductivity than cavity-wall
brickwork. The vast majority of moisture that leaves a building does so by air
transfer (i.e. via air bricks, flues, "leaky" windows etc.). Condensation
management is a two pronged fork;
1) Minimise water vapour production. Unflued heaters are one of the worst
culprits. Burning a pint of paraffin produces the equivalent of a pint of water
as (condensable) water vapour. Ditto <scribbles furiously on back of envelope>
1/3 m^3 natural gas. Dry your clothes *outside*. Do not leave pots boiling
furiously on the stove. Do not over populate the dwelling. Condensation
problems are normally caused by one or more of the factors above, coupled with
failure to observe;
2) Permit a reasonable flow of (vapour laden) air out of the dwelling, and (by
inference (relatively) dry air in.
The consequence of concrete's higher thermal conductivity is that the inner
walls tend to be colder in winter, and therefore more likely to condense water
out of the air. if you do get condensation problems (general comment time)
there is a thin expanded polystyrene wall paper type of stuff, which you hang
(as per wallpaper) under the paper itself, but dents very easily. The preferred
line of attack is to buy a dehumidifier, but these only extract about a pint
per kWh by my guesstimation.
John Schmitt
>Thanks again - soon I'll be able to post *proper* DIY queries! >
>Anja :) > >P.S: dear Harry, I'm a girl :-)8 >
If you can think of a disclaimer, it applies.
Alias Schmitt and John; And in all the flames and cranks they read, they never
killfiled anyone.
angus
>Thanks for all the replies to my original question, however vague it
>may have been.
>
>Thanks for all the comments regarding drilling holes and heating - now
>that should be no problem then :-)
>
>I have now been able to ascertain that the house was definitely built
>post-1957 (not on that OS map) by the local authority (Cambridge), and
>is of the 'in situ' or 'shuttering' type - not made up of pre-cast
>panels, but cast on site. The floors are floorboards, not concrete. I
>am having a full survey done, pointing out to the surveyor what we are
>worried about. The houses in the next street are indeed panel-built
>and have all been brought up to standard recently. And yes there is a
>lot of horror-hype around. But current owners managed to get a
>mortgage okay after the building society got their full survey, about
>6 years ago.
>
>I'm afraid that's all the techie stuff I know so far. An architect
>aquaintance (of continental european training) said that concrete
>doesn't 'breate' like bricks, thus leading to a higher degree of
>dampness/moisture, necessitating air-bricks (are present) and the
>like, or frequent thorough airing to prevent damp developing. Can
>anyone substantiate *that* ?
>
This sounds like it may be of the "no fines" type that scottish
special housing built quite a considerable number of quite
succesfully, I believe that they were discontinued for "political"
rather than technical reasons. basicly they used large round aggragate
bound with a cement mix that didn't include sand. The finish was
generally harling and there was no steel reinforcement (not required
due to the thickness of the walls being equivelant to block. The main
properties of these were (as far as I can remember)
1. fast construction of large numbers (due to re-use of forms)
2. good thermal insulation properties due to the large proportion of
void.
3. low moisture penetration once again due to the voids minimising
capiliary action.
I seem to remember that they were prone to some problems caused by
cold bridging round openings ( somthing to do with the use of steel
windows??) but I can't recall the details.
now somewhere I have a whole pile of info on them unfortunately it
would take me forever to find.
sharo...@gmail.com
Thanks in anticipation..
Harry Bloomfield
spuorg...@gowanhill.com
> > I've just put an offer in on a house with this type of concrete and steel.
> > It's a semi...how efficient is noise insulation between the houses?
Owain
alan_m
Possibly not a problem buying with cash but maybe a problem selling on
when the future prospective owner needs to borrow the money.
--
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spuorg...@gowanhill.com
> Isn't there a problem with obtaining mortgages on this type of property?
> Possibly not a problem buying with cash but maybe a problem selling on
> when the future prospective owner needs to borrow the money.
http://www.peterbarry.co.uk/blog/houses-of-non-traditional-construction-common-property-defects-6/
Owain
dennis@home
> I've just put an offer in on a house with this type of concrete and steel. It's a semi...how efficient is noise insulation between the houses? And how are they for warmth?
> Thanks in anticipation..
>
Some of them are defined as faulty by design.
Smiths houses for instance fall apart as the steel corrodes.
You *really* need to know what type it is.
phil...@gmail.com
> We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
> mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
> sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
> Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
> simple nails to properly drilled holes?
>
> Thanks, Anja :)
harry
> We've just made an offer on a concrete (as opposed to brick and
> mortar) house (built around the 60s). Vendors assure me it's perfectly
> sound, warm in winter and cool in summer. Anyone have any experience?
> Will we have problems with things like fitting things to walls, from
> simple nails to properly drilled holes?
>
> Any comments, further references apppreciated,
> Thanks, Anja :)
They have all been demolished now.
Dunno why but obviously there were problems with some concrete houses.
"UK problems with concrete cast houses."
Lots of info.