How to make digging holes easier ?

[MrWeld]

Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
gets extremely sticky in the wet.

I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.

I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in that
area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than get a
machine or a person to dig for me.

So far I've got these tools:
- Large spade and medium spade.
- Heavy narrow trenching spade.
- Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
two-handled scoopy thing).
- Shovel
- Protective gloves and boots

Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
much easier when you're doing it every day?

[mark]

<MrWeld> wrote in message news:51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net...

> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about 90cm
> deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and gets
> extremely sticky in the wet.
>
> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so I
> don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>

Delegation skills?

mark

[Clive George]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:
> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
> gets extremely sticky in the wet.

Shallow graves for tall aliens?

> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
> I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.

Oh, getting a mini-digger is always justified :-)

[Adrian C]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:

> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
> gets extremely sticky in the wet.

> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
> tools I could buy?

Set of parallel mounted angle grinders?

--
Adrian C

[Steve Firth]

MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:

> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?

Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.

I mean shovels like this:

http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul2309-west-country-4091-90750
http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jackson-irish-shovel-4091-132602

or for narrow trenches:
http://www.toolbox.co.uk/draper-21301-long-handled-16207-120511

> Any other tools I could buy?

A mattock if you have tree roots to cope with, or a pick axe if the
ground is stony.

http://www.toolbox.co.uk/silverline-gt45-grubbing-2849-61777

You might find one of these useful in starting the hole. It's like a
long heavy chisel that you can use to break up the soil before tackling
with a shovel.

http://www.toolbox.co.uk/roughneck-posthole-digger-17-13712-102657

For really stony ground or clay you can consider using a cheap SDS drill
with rotostop fitted with a wide chisel bit to break up the ground or
sculpt out lumps of clay. If doing this in clay ensure the clay is dry
to what potters call "leather hard" before using the SDS, and ensure you
have an RCD somewhere on the electrical supply.

Alternatively if the going is really tough consider hire of a breaker
hammer with a spade bit.

Only you can really tell what sort of ground you are digging in, so
start with the usual tools of spade, pick axe, mattock only turn to
other things if the conditions demand them. Remember that the long
handled tools enable you to break out the soil without breaking yourself
but you may find that you don't have the strength to push the spade
blade down a spit to commence digging.

> Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
> much easier when you're doing it every day?

Yes, after a fortnight you will have much more upper body and leg
strength. Be *very* careful to pace yourself over the early days. Flying
at it like a lunatic can cause injury that will persist for decades.

And it should be obvious, but needs saying, buying a load of toys isn't
going to make it that much easier. My preference is for a long handled
spade and a pick axe or a mattock with a pick axe spike. Just two tools
and you can dig almost any hole or trench in any conditions.

Avoid British digging spades, for they are shite.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

[ARW]

The sort of job that you pass on to the village idiot for a few quid.

--
Adam

[Gefreiter Krueger]

C4.

--
A man goes into a library and asks for a book on suicide.
The librarian says, "Fuck off, you won't bring it back!"

[Steve Firth]

Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Oh, getting a mini-digger is always justified :-)

Buying one from eBay is justified if you have a lot of groundwork to do.
I've had really good value from my £750 eBay buy of a PowerFab TD1. OTOH
not many people have projects that require footings, drainage and
installation of services and (hopefully) a swimming pool. So the
expenditure does have to be weighed carefully against contractor
fees/time.

My recent burial of a large storage container for rainwater took me four
days of continuous digging to prepare and inter the tank and dig the
trenches for the rain water drainage. All done now but required "quite a
bit" of manual labour as well as the use of a digger, because diggers
can't get into all locations and levelling trenches takes fine work with
a spade.

Forget to mention in my earlier post, these can also be useful:

http://www.tesco.com/direct/de-wit-short-handled-digging-hoe/625-4055.pr
d

http://www.tesco.com/direct/de-wit-double-hoe-straight/509-3783.prd

Although I wouldn't pay those prices for one and I prefer mine to have a
long handle. The first is good in heavy clay or boulder clay, the second
is good in stony or sandy soil.

[Mark]

In article <kru79n$1m5$1...@dont-email.me>, adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk
says...

> > Delegation skills?
>
> The sort of job that you pass on to the village idiot for a few quid.

Or apprentice :)

[fred]

In article <51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net>, MrWeld <MrWeld@?.?>
writes

>Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>

First of all luv, that's a trench not an 'ole B-)

>I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
>I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>
>I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
>weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in that
>area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than get a
>machine or a person to dig for me.
>
>So far I've got these tools:
>- Large spade and medium spade.
>- Heavy narrow trenching spade.
>- Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
>two-handled scoopy thing).
>- Shovel
>- Protective gloves and boots
>
>Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
>tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
>much easier when you're doing it every day?
>

As it appears to be stony clay and narrow I'd suggest using the adze
part of a mattock[1] to do the main trenching, digging out the loose
debris with either the spade or the shovel. If at any time it becomes
easy enough to use the spade then do so, in with weight on the boot,
lever back to loosen then heave out, working in the trench all the time.

Depending on the ground I'd expect a bit of collapse but if it's for
foundations then just clear it out and order a bit more concrete.

If you've got soft hands then you probably want to wear work gloves and
maybe tape around your palms with zinc oxide tape to reduce the risk of
blisters.

Well done for having a go.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattock
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

[Brian Gaff]

Not as far as my experience goes. Blisters on the hands even with gloves
seem to be a real issue. I'd get someone else to do it if I ever need a few
holes in future. The soil around here is all clay!
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

<MrWeld> wrote in message news:51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net...

[Brian Gaff]

Ah yes, the old Half a hole, now dig the other half for me thing.

Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active

"mark" <ma...@reepham2003.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OcOdnZfkO4OlBX_M...@brightview.co.uk...

[John Rumm]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:

> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
> gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>
> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
> I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>
> I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
> weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in that
> area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than get a
> machine or a person to dig for me.
>
> So far I've got these tools:
> - Large spade and medium spade.
> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
> two-handled scoopy thing).
> - Shovel
> - Protective gloves and boots

The obvious tool to add would be a grubbing mattock (superficially looks
a bit like a pick axe, but with shorter and much wide blades. One
oriented inline with the shaft, and one across. Very good for chopping
up areas of hard or stony ground prior to removal with a shovel etc.

> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
> tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
> much easier when you're doing it every day?

Yup, if you pace yourself and work up to it, it will get easier. Don't
try and do too much in one go at first.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[John Rumm]

No argument there... and those small 850kg machines with the "tuck
under" tracks can get through any normal door sized gap.

[Steve Firth]

MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:

> I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long.

Sorry, forgot to add, we call these holes "trenches". HTH.

[Steve Firth]

ARW <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The sort of job that you pass on to the village idiot for a few quid.

FX: <waves>

[Artic]

MrWeld scribbled...

>
> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
> tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
> much easier when you're doing it every day?

Look down the dole office for a middle aged bloke with calloused hands
and offer cash.

[GB]

On 14/07/2013 14:07, Steve Firth wrote:
> Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Oh, getting a mini-digger is always justified :-)
>
> Buying one from eBay is justified if you have a lot of groundwork to do.

> I've had really good value from my Ł750 eBay buy of a PowerFab TD1.

Isn't Ł750 an absolute steal for one of those? I suspect that you could
have sold it on for Ł3k and spent the profit on hiring a bigger machine. :)

[j...@mdfs.net]

MrWeld wrote:
> So far I've got these tools:
> - Large spade and medium spade.
> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
> two-handled scoopy thing).
> - Shovel

You seem to understand the difference between a spade and a shovel,
they are not synonyms. A spade is the digging equivalent of a knife,
is used to cut into the ground; a shovel is the digging equivalent
of a spoon, is used to lift and shift. Shovels also work best if
there's a firm surface to run them against, otherwise they end up
hitting the stuff you're shovelling side-on.

I agree with the recommendation to get a mattock, especially for
trench-like holes. I also find a right-angle rake useful for
gathering lumps together.

Pace yourself, use any excuse to stop for a cuppa. Heat exhaustion
can creep up on you unexpectedly if you're not used to it.

JGH

[tony sayer]

In article <8c1d1669-47e0-44a3...@googlegroups.com>,
j...@mdfs.net scribeth thus

>MrWeld wrote:
>> So far I've got these tools:
>> - Large spade and medium spade.
>> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
>> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
>> two-handled scoopy thing).
>> - Shovel
>
>You seem to understand the difference between a spade and a shovel,
>they are not synonyms. A spade is the digging equivalent of a knife,
>is used to cut into the ground; a shovel is the digging equivalent
>of a spoon, is used to lift and shift. Shovels also work best if
>there's a firm surface to run them against, otherwise they end up
>hitting the stuff you're shovelling side-on.
>

>JGH


So what's an "Earth inverting horticultural implement" called then;?...

--
Tony Sayer

[Steve Firth]

GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:

> On 14/07/2013 14:07, Steve Firth wrote:
> > Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Oh, getting a mini-digger is always justified :-)
> >
> > Buying one from eBay is justified if you have a lot of groundwork to do.

> > I've had really good value from my £750 eBay buy of a PowerFab TD1.
>
> Isn't £750 an absolute steal for one of those?

I thought so, but it seemed to be about average at the time I bought it.
Three on sale all around the same price. I bought mine from a nice man
in South Wales who was a Hardly Doesn'tRun enthusiast, he used his
motorhome to tow it all the way to my house and refused payment for the
fuel.

It had issues I must say, and this year will need a selection of new
hydraulic hose, but nothing too major and has worked well for the past
three years.

Biggest problem with them is that they don't have any drive to the
wheels and don't have a 350º pivot. You learn to cope and use the arm to
hoik the thing around the land.

Towing it 1500 miles south was "interesting". Great fun in France when
the strap holding the arm down broke and the arm flipped into the air
and a buttock-clenching session when a crap French autoroute resulted in
the tail wagging the dog.

> I suspect that you could have sold it on for £3k and spent the profit on

> hiring a bigger machine. :)

Heh, possibly.

[Gefreiter Krueger]

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 19:06:14 +0100, Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <op.wz7qs...@red.lan>,

> My C4 doesn't have a trenching attachment but it does get 60mpg.

My Golf gets 56mpg, and it can pull up hedges.

--
Women like silent men, they think they're listening.

[Andrew Mawson]

"tony sayer" wrote in message news:SjYHGFC7...@bancom.co.uk...

A Plough or A Rotavator !

AWEM

[harryagain]

<MrWeld> wrote in message news:51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net...

You will additionally need a pick or a mattock.
And possibly a heavy bar.
You want a pointy spade, square ones are much harder work.

Wheel barrow to move the excavate.

And a well thought out plan to avoid double handling the excavate.

Eg will you need a skip or can it be disposedof on site?
Eg Get the barrow by the hole and throw the muck straight into it.
If so, can you get a skip with a side door? (Saves getting it over the
side).
Cost of tipping is huge if you can't . (Landfill tax)

If you are unused to manual work break yourself in gradually.
Do a bit everynight. Start with a half hour and work up to it.
It's very easy to permanently fuck up your back.

Are you aquainted with any Poles or Lithuanians?

[Farmer Giles]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:

It does get easier, but a mattock would help. One of these might help
too - farmers use them all the time when digging holes in stony ground:

http://www.jarrettfencing.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=567&zenid=d3m3mcpcl5tlmlt26ad5a65083

[Tim Watts]

On Sunday 14 July 2013 20:05 Farmer Giles wrote in uk.d-i-y:

>
> It does get easier, but a mattock would help. One of these might help
> too - farmers use them all the time when digging holes in stony ground:

Agree - been using a mattock on some hard dry soil this week. It breaks the
soil up with little effort leaving shoveling of loose material only which is
a lot easier than "digging". Also makes light work of small roots.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

[Tim Lamb]

In message <51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net>, MrWeld
<MrWeld@?.?.invalid> writes

>Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>
>I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
>I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>
>I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
>weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in
>that area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than
>get a machine or a person to dig for me.
>
>So far I've got these tools:
>- Large spade and medium spade.
>- Heavy narrow trenching spade.
>- Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
>two-handled scoopy thing).
>- Shovel
>- Protective gloves and boots
>
>Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
>tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
>much easier when you're doing it every day?

From the response, everyone knows about digging holes...

For clay with stones (hoggin?) I think a pickaxe better than the broad
points of a mattock. Strong shovel for removing loosened soil and the
heavy 4 pronged fork used by anyone digging for a living. I've acquired
several over the years; usually left behind by navvies laying pipe/cable
on the farm. The conventional wooden handle is reinforced with a steel
strip front and back which adds weight to do some of the pickaxe work.
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Farmer Giles]

On 14/07/2013 21:16, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <51e295b7$0$18786$862e...@ngroups.net>, MrWeld
> <MrWeld@?.?.invalid> writes
>> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>> gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>>
>> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited,
>> so I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>>
>> I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
>> weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in
>> that area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than
>> get a machine or a person to dig for me.
>>
>> So far I've got these tools:
>> - Large spade and medium spade.
>> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
>> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
>> two-handled scoopy thing).
>> - Shovel
>> - Protective gloves and boots
>>
>> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any
>> other tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does
>> digging get much easier when you're doing it every day?
>
> From the response, everyone knows about digging holes...

But clearly you think you know more about it than anyone else...

[alan]

On 14/07/2013 15:02, John Rumm wrote:

>
> The obvious tool to add would be a grubbing mattock (superficially looks
> a bit like a pick axe, but with shorter and much wide blades. One
> oriented inline with the shaft, and one across. Very good for chopping
> up areas of hard or stony ground prior to removal with a shovel etc.

+1 for a mattock
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p20759

--
mailto:news{at}admac(dot}myzen{dot}co{dot}uk

[newshound]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:

> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
> gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>
> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
> I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>
> I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
> weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in that
> area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than get a
> machine or a person to dig for me.
>
> So far I've got these tools:
> - Large spade and medium spade.
> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
> two-handled scoopy thing).
> - Shovel
> - Protective gloves and boots
>
> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
> tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
> much easier when you're doing it every day?
>

Well if it was me it would be a no brainer, I would buy a second hand
Powerfab or other mini digger and sell it afterwards. (Or more likely
keep it).

[Lobster]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:
> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long.

C'mon, you can't just throw that on here asking for advice, without
saying WHY?!

--
David

[Nightjar]

On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:
> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about

> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and

> gets extremely sticky in the wet....

That is deep enough to trap you if it collapses when you are standing in
it. You need to consider how to summon help if that happens, or take
precautions, such as shoring, to prevent it. Sticky when wet suggests
clay, which has a very nasty habit of allowing you to cut vertical sides
when dry, but collapsing at a shallow angle in the rain. Make sure you
stack any excavated soil well clear of the trench (at least 8ft / 2.4m),
to avoid loading on the soil alongside it, unless it is adequately
shored of course.

Colin Bignell

[Matty F]

I agree. We could come up with alternative solutions, such as making a 90x50x3000 wooden box, and dumping lots of soil around it, then moving the box to the next bit.

[dennis@home]

shallow graves for tall people?
foundations for a garden monorail?
scale model Stonehenge?

[RobertL]

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:13:50 PM UTC+1, MrWeld wrote:
> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>

> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and

> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
> tools I could buy?

When my father in-law (in his 70s) dug the 1000mm deep trench foundations for our extension he needed a pick axe to dig the bottom 6" of the trench because the ground was packed so hard.

It took him about 1 day per metre of trench length IIRC.

Robert

[Nightjar]

On 15/07/2013 13:47, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:35:55 +0100, Nightjar wrote:
>
>> On 14/07/2013 13:13, MrWeld wrote:
>>> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>>> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>>> gets extremely sticky in the wet....
>>
>> That is deep enough to trap you if it collapses when you are standing in
>> it.
>

> Huh ? 90 *cm* deep ?
>
> Did you mistake length for depth ;)

A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody around to
dig them out, that could be a serious problem.

Colin Bignell

[Roger Chapman]

On 14/07/2013 21:16, Tim Lamb wrote:

> From the response, everyone knows about digging holes...

When you are in a hole the usual recommendation is to stop digging. ;-)

> For clay with stones (hoggin?) I think a pickaxe better than the broad
> points of a mattock. Strong shovel for removing loosened soil and the
> heavy 4 pronged fork used by anyone digging for a living. I've acquired
> several over the years; usually left behind by navvies laying pipe/cable
> on the farm. The conventional wooden handle is reinforced with a steel
> strip front and back which adds weight to do some of the pickaxe work.

Mattocks come in two flavours. The traditional one has an axe opposite
the adze but you can also get one with a conventional pick opposite and
that is a more versatile tool than a straight pickaxe. Still need an axe
for any roots though.

FWIW when I dug out the clay floor of my barn I found the most effective
combination of tools was a garden fork and a sledge hammer. The hammer
was used in place of a foot as stamping on the fork made no impression
on the hard ground. A little bit of experimentation was required to
avoid burying the fork too deep or too far from the edge of the cut that
no amount of heaving on the handle would loosen the clod.



--
Roger Chapman

[Steve Firth]

Roger Chapman <ro...@nospam.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]

> FWIW when I dug out the clay floor of my barn I found the most effective
> combination of tools was a garden fork and a sledge hammer. The hammer
> was used in place of a foot as stamping on the fork made no impression on
> the hard ground. A little bit of experimentation was required to avoid
> burying the fork too deep or too far from the edge of the cut that no
> amount of heaving on the handle would loosen the clod.

For a similar job I used an SDS drill with a chisel
To break up the floor.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

> in which case you *really* don't want to read this:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/10/safety_review/

Been there, done that, but in clay.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?
>
>
>

> Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
>
> common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
>
> who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
>
> trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.
>
>
>
> I mean shovels like this:
>
>
>
> http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul2309-west-country-4091-90750
>
> http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jackson-irish-shovel-4091-132602


Stunning advice.

Those are shovels. You don't dig with a shovel. Shovels are for shovelling.
That'd only work if the ground had been broken up by something.

[ARW]

Please tell me you are making this up.

--
Adam

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 21:57:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

>> A collapse in a trench that deep is unlikely to be fatal, but it
>> certainly could trap a person by the legs. If there is nobody
around
>> to dig them out, that could be a serious problem.
>
> Please tell me you are making this up.

A 90 cm deep trench is bollock height, or waist if you are a short
arse. A collapse is likely to bury your legs to the knees or above
and buried that deeply will be trapped. Having said that you should
be able to scrabble away some of the muck and get some movement to
lift one foot a bit and hopefully get some muck under it and move it
slowly upwards, same with the other foot. Don't forget this 50 cm
wide trench doesn't give you much room either, a carver dining chair
is about 50 cm wide.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Nightjar]

When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a similar
trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the other.
It took two hours to dig him out.

Colin Bignell

[ARW]

Trust me. I have no idea of what a carver dining chair is.

--
Adam

[ARW]

Bollocks:-)

It took you 10 minutes to dig him out.

However it took you 1 hour and 50 minutes to get permission to dig him out
when you called the REC's call centre.


--
Adam

[Nightjar]

I go back to the days when the bloke on the spot made the decisions. In
the workman's case, the decision to jump into an unsupported trench was
probably not his best.

It most likely did only take ten minutes to dig him out. The rest of the
time was making it safe for somebody else to get in there to do it.

Colin Bignell

[John Rumm]

You need to watch em, they are armed ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 03:10:24 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

>>> Don't forget this 50 cm wide trench doesn't give you much room
either,
>>> a carver dining chair is about 50 cm wide.
>>
>> Trust me. I have no idea of what a carver dining chair is.
>
> You need to watch em, they are armed ;-)

He he, I hope that doesn't go whoosh as well. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Dave Liquorice]

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 00:08:15 +0100, ARW wrote:

>> When I worked for an electricity board, we had a workman in a
similar
>> trench trapped by one wall collapsing and pushing him against the
>> other. It took two hours to dig him out.
>
> Bollocks:-)
>
> It took you 10 minutes to dig him out.

Have you ever been in somthing "grippy" or hard to shift to above
your knees?

The other problem with a collapse is that when you remove some of the
material more collapses in or the would be rescuers can't get close
enough without risking getting trapped themselves in the unstable
ground. Can't decide if a large or small angle of repose makes things
easier or harder.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Steve Firth]

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
> > MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?
> >
> >
> >
> > Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
> > common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
> > who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
> > trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.
> >
> > I mean shovels like this:
> >
> > http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul2309-west-country-4091-90750
> > http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jackson-irish-shovel-4091-132602
>
>
> Stunning advice.
>
> Those are shovels.

Gosh, you don't say, shovels eh? That would be why I referred to them at
least four times as "shovels" would it? And you didn't notice that I had
done so, are you going for some sort of medal for "missing the bleeding
obvious"?

> You don't dig with a shovel.

Bullshit. As I said in my post, the British don't have a bloody clue how
to dig large holes or trenches. They are fixated on using the wrong
tools for the job and use garden spades which are designed for turning
over a vegetable patch or flower bed which has been repeatedly dug over
for years.

> Shovels are for shovelling.

"Stunning advice"

> That'd only work if the ground had been broken up by something.

No, and you're clearly an idiot who has never used a *digging* shovel
such as the ones referred to above. The pointed blade makes them easier
to kick into stony ground and clay. The long handle gives greater
leverage to break out clods and also allows a more upright working
position that puts much less strain on the lower back. Across the USA
and Europe you won't find many, or I suspect any, people digging with a
British spade because the spade is not fit for purpose.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 6:13:39 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> > Shovels are for shovelling.
>
>
>
> "Stunning advice"
>
>
>
> > That'd only work if the ground had been broken up by something.
>
>
>
> No, and you're clearly an idiot who has never used a *digging* shovel
>
> such as the ones referred to above. The pointed blade makes them easier
>
> to kick into stony ground and clay. The long handle gives greater
>
> leverage to break out clods and also allows a more upright working
>
> position that puts much less strain on the lower back. Across the USA
>
> and Europe you won't find many, or I suspect any, people digging with a
>
> British spade because the spade is not fit for purpose.

Deeply strange, this. What's going on here?

I've dug a fair few holes in my lifetime, but I don't claim to be a hole-digging expert. So, when Mr OP asks for advice about digging holes, I keep quiet.

Until Firth posts his pearls of wisdom.

You can look up the recommended digging technique on the internet.

It goes something like this.
Foot on the shoulder of the spade, press in to a spade's depth, lever out a spit of soil, chuck spit into barrow/trench/wherever.

Repeat. Work side to side and progress backwards.

If you've ever done that, the differences between a digging spade and a shovel are obvious.

A shovel (for grain, gravel. soil, etc.) has turned up sides and a wider blade.
The blade is thinner, usually a pressing rather than a forging. It will not stand up to use as a spade, the blade is too thin to serve as a lever. The handle is usually too thin, for the same reason.

A spade has a sharper, narrower, flatter blade and a cutting edge, usually square, sometimes slightly pointed.

You'd try to break up the soil by the minimum amount. Sometimes you have to beak it up with a pick or mattock, in stoney or dry soil that can't be cut, and then shovel out the spoil.

Is that wrong? Anyone who has ever dug a hole would know that stuff.

So then Firth arrives and recommends the use of wholly unsuitable shovels.

The description of the West Country Shovel he recommends says;
"The blades are hardened and tempered, so they can be used for light digging as well as for moving loose materials such as shingle, sand and gravel."

It's a shovel, for moving loose material. It's not a spade, for digging, though you might dig soft soil with it.

He doesn't know how to dig!
Has he ever dug a hole?
Is he real, or a mere internet expert?
If he is the DIY dynamo he claims, how does he get the time to rack up 100, 150 posts on this forum alone? How about other forums? Is it another Rod Speed?

Anyone know what's going on here?

Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm not addressing you.
Go and dig a hole and stand in it.

[Tim Lamb]

In message <1l6de9l.k8nhpg7iheq4N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>, Steve Firth
<%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes

>Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
>> > MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
>> > common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
>> > who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
>> > trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.
>> >
>> > I mean shovels like this:
>> >
>> > http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul2309-west-country-4091-90750
>> > http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jackson-irish-shovel-4091-132602
>>
>>
>> Stunning advice.
>>
>> Those are shovels.
>
>Gosh, you don't say, shovels eh? That would be why I referred to them at
>least four times as "shovels" would it? And you didn't notice that I had
>done so, are you going for some sort of medal for "missing the bleeding
>obvious"?
>
>> You don't dig with a shovel.
>
>Bullshit. As I said in my post, the British don't have a bloody clue how
>to dig large holes or trenches. They are fixated on using the wrong
>tools for the job and use garden spades which are designed for turning
>over a vegetable patch or flower bed which has been repeatedly dug over
>for years.

Tentative criticism... I find the straight handled Irish shovel can
twist in your hands and dump half the load back in the trench. I have
similar problems with the four pronged straight handled dung fork found
in stables. Dry skin perhaps.
--
Tim Lamb

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 21/07/13 20:08, Onetap wrote:
> Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you,
> I'm not addressing you. Go and dig a hole and stand in it.

An opinion on everything and experience of nothing. KIllfile?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[Steve Firth]

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm
> not addressing you.

You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying twat.

Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't
want that grey stuff, just fill it up with shit."

[Tim Lamb]

In message <kshcku$rjb$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> writes

>On 21/07/13 20:08, Onetap wrote:
>> Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you,
>>I'm not addressing you. Go and dig a hole and stand in it.
>An opinion on everything and experience of nothing. KIllfile?

No. They both have useful practical knowledge.

Perhaps it is the heat?
>
>

--
Tim Lamb

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:08:53 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm
>
> > not addressing you.
>
>
>
> You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying twat.

Solely in order to quote your misleading "expert" advice and ask other posters what they think of it.
And of you.

> Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't
>
> want that grey stuff, just fill it up with shit."

I have dug holes, a great many holes.
I have used a spade. You have not.

[Steve Firth]

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 21, 2013 9:08:53 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
>> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Firth, you can sod right off; you're clueless. I'm asking about you, I'm
>>
>>> not addressing you.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're replying to one of my posts, you cowardly lying twat.
>
> Solely in order to quote your misleading "expert" advice and ask other
> posters what they think of it.
> And of you.

You've been stalking me for several weeks now in order to snipe at my
posts. You're just another liar on Usenet.

>> Presumably in the queue for brains you stood there saying "No, I don't
>> want that grey stuff, just fill it up with shit."
>
> I have dug holes, a great many holes.
> I have used a spade. You have not.

I have used spades, pick axes, hoes, earth chisels, spikes, shovels and
laughable little entrenching tools to dig holes. I have worked for Wimpey,
Balfour Beatty and Taylor Woodrow digging holes. I can still shift up to
five tonnes of soil a day if I need to.

I note that you ran away from addressing the point that the UZk is the only
place fixated on the use of a garden spade and that the Irish shovels I
pointed to are *digging* shovels which seems to confuse you because you've
clearly never seen one or used one.

All you have is a big, flapping gob and the cowardice to hide behind an
alias.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Onetap]

On Sunday, July 21, 2013 10:54:43 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
> You've been stalking me for several weeks now in order to snipe at my
>
> posts. You're just another liar on Usenet.

Don't delude yourself. I have no interest in you whatever.
I merely challenged the bullshit you have posted.
Try to concentrate on that.
You have come back aggressive/defensive, but avoiding the points made.

> I have used spades, pick axes, hoes, earth chisels, spikes, shovels and
>
> laughable little entrenching tools to dig holes. I have worked for Wimpey,
>
> Balfour Beatty and Taylor Woodrow digging holes. I can still shift up to
>
> five tonnes of soil a day if I need to.

Sure. But you don't know the difference between a shovel and a spade.

> I note that you ran away from addressing the point that the UZk is the only
>
> place fixated on the use of a garden spade and that the Irish shovels I
>
> pointed to are *digging* shovels which seems to confuse you because you've
>
> clearly never seen one or used one.

I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any groundworks in the UK or Ireland.
If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use them.
They have spades, D-handled mostly.

The shovels you pointed to are shovels, not spades. For shovelling.
The West Country shovel is fit for "light digging". You avoided addressing that point.
Look at the Irish shovel you pointed at; pressed steel blade, is it not?
Thin metal. Not fit for levering soil out of the ground.
Fit for press forming and being sold to idiots.
An aluminium rivet to secure the shaft? How thick must you be? How long will that last?

> All you have is a big, flapping gob and the cowardice to hide behind an
>
> alias.

I am astounded that anyone would be stupid enough to use their real name on the internet.
You're naive enough to think there's nothing wrong in doing so. Crack on.
You seem to have enjoyed a very priviledged and sheltered life.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <4bfbd844-48a1-4fde...@googlegroups.com>,

>
> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any
>
> > groundworks in the UK or Ireland.
>
> > If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use
>
> > them.
>
>
>

> A harry-style argument.

What's your opinion, Tim?
Why would virtually every ground worker, road worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to Steve)?
It's just not plausible.

My theory is simple and concise.
They don't use the long-handles "Irish shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

OK for shovelling grain, sand, gravel, sand, grit, salt, coal, etc..
But no good for digging.
For digging, you'd use a spade.

[Another John]

Just dipped back into this thread, having been away for a bit , and
amazed to see it still going! Boys, Boys, Boys! All this bad
language and bad temper! Is this like us, in this group?!?! [Oh yeah
- it is.]

Most entertaining, anyway.

Personally, I use a spade (UK pattern) for digging a hole, unless a spit
(that's what we call it, though I see elsewhere it's called a trench
shovel) is going to do a better job because of (a) texture of soil. or
(b) shape of hole. Mine is all-steel (i.e. handle too), is heavy, and is
a fantastic hole digger. I'm currently using it in the garden instead
of my spade because the soil is dried to concrete.

I once went on a working holiday in Austria, where they handed us what
seem to be the so-called "Irish shovel" (I'm pretty sure that the
Continentals didn't go looking to Ireland for a shovel design ... I'm
pretty sure they thought it up themselves). These worked well, and have
fantastic leverage for hoicking, but there was many a time we'd have
swopped 'em for UK spades.

I also have shovels - a small one for shovelling heavy stuff, and a big
wide one for shovelling snow.

I also have a round-ended shovel-cum-spade (bit like an "Irish" one, but
with a t-handle, at the conventional UK length) which comes in *very*
useful when I want to shovel stuff like a pile of gravel of sand --
better than either a spade or a shovel. I think this design may have
originated in the pits around here.


What a great thread: calling a spade a shovel, and vice versa, and round
and round we go: a real DIY thread :-D

John

[John Rumm]

On 22/07/2013 01:19, Onetap wrote:
> On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
>> In article <4bfbd844-48a1-4fde...@googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any
>>
>>> groundworks in the UK or Ireland.
>>
>>> If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They don't use
>>
>>> them.
>>
>>
>>
>> A harry-style argument.
>
> What's your opinion, Tim?
> Why would virtually every ground worker, road worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to Steve)?
> It's just not plausible.

Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their
hyper efficiency ;-)

> My theory is simple and concise.
> They don't use the long-handles "Irish shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
of tool for the job.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 22, 2013 9:59:01 AM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
>
> Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their
>
> hyper efficiency ;-)

You can't lean on a long-handled shovel. ;-)

[sm_jamieson]

On Monday, July 15, 2013 11:13:29 AM UTC+1, RobertL wrote:

> On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:13:50 PM UTC+1, MrWeld wrote:
>
> > Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>
> >
>
> > 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>
>
>

> > Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
>
> > tools I could buy?
>
>
>
> When my father in-law (in his 70s) dug the 1000mm deep trench foundations for our extension he needed a pick axe to dig the bottom 6" of the trench because the ground was packed so hard.
>
Hi probably could have stopped there, if he had a sensible BCO !
Simon.

[charles]

In article <hvSdnaVr4vnPaXHM...@brightview.co.uk>, John Rumm

<see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
> On 22/07/2013 01:19, Onetap wrote:
> > On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:07:13 AM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
> >> In article <4bfbd844-48a1-4fde...@googlegroups.com>,
> >>
> >> Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I've never seen an "Irish shovel" or long-handles shovel used on any
> >>
> >>> groundworks in the UK or Ireland.
> >>
> >>> If they were that good, you'd expect every digger to have one. They
> >>> don't use
> >>
> >>> them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> A harry-style argument.
> >
> > What's your opinion, Tim? Why would virtually every ground worker, road
> > worker, farmer and digger in the UK use inferior tools (according to
> > Steve)? It's just not plausible.

> Yes because council road crews up and down the UK are renowned for their
> hyper efficiency ;-)

> > My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
> > shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.

> I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
> them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
> of tool for the job.

I suspect it depends on the soil that is being dug.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[fred]

I've been reading this with great amusement.

I'm Irish.

I have never heard of an Irish shovel. Here we just call them shovels. They are totally unsuited for digging. The blade is too thin and too large. The shoulder is the same thin thickness as the blade and will cut through the sole of your boots in short order. If you attempt to dig with the pointed end one it swivels in your hand. The pointed end one is used for shovelling loose materials like sand or loose earth. The square ended ones are more useful for shifting material when used with a brush.

There are also aluminium and plastic bladed versions of these square edged shovel. Generally used for shovelling grain.

Now when it comes to spades there are/were as many versions of an Irish spade as of an Irishman. They were all originally made locally and made to suit local conditions. The essential difference between it and an English spade are the length of the handle, lack of 'D' handle and size and shape of the blade.

I have versions of all of these items except the grain shovel.

The Irish spade, with its longer slimmer blade and long handle is the 'go-to ' one for me for general digging, whether it be holes or for general gardening.

The 'English' spade with its shorter 'D' handle and broader blade I regard as a border spade. The broader blade makes it too much hard work for general digging and the short handle lacks the leverage of the longer Irish spade.

This is the only spademill now in Ireland

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/pattersons-spade-mill/

Its worth a visit if in or around Belfast.

Though now run by the National Trust I knew it in its working day. They made their own abrasive belts and we used to supply them with the abrasive grain.

Ye can continue to argue this amongst yourselves but the above is the gospel according to St. Pat

[John Rumm]

This could explain much ;-)

[John Rumm]

On 22/07/2013 13:41, fred wrote:

> I've been reading this with great amusement.
>
> I'm Irish.
>
> I have never heard of an Irish shovel. Here we just call them
> shovels. They are totally unsuited for digging. The blade is too thin
> and too large. The shoulder is the same thin thickness as the blade
> and will cut through the sole of your boots in short order. If you

I get the feeling that introducing the "Irish" bit into the description
seems to add more confusion. I would guess most people are thinking of
something like:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Handle-Digging-Shovel-Cushioned-Grip/dp/B000B6Q6BA/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1374497963&sr=8-8&keywords=digging+shovel

Thick heavy welded blade, with a big step on the top for comfort driving
it with your feet. That sounds somewhat different from what you describe
which is quite possibly different it all respects apart from general
appearance in a picture!

[fred]

Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an American device. The dimensions given are strange, 8.3cm x 21.8cm x 14.6cm (3 1/4" x 8 1/2" x 57 1/2 ") Can't make sense of the first two, the last is obviously the length of the handle and head which would make it smaller than a standard Irish shovel.

To my mind this would only work in soft earth, or dirt as the Yanks call it. I have tried penetrating earth with a shovel when I was too lazy to go back and get a spade but it doesn't work. The blade tends to twist under one's foot

As an aside I watched an old electrician cut a channel in a wall one time. He used a 1" wide cold chisel. When I thought about it he was right. Each blow on the head of the chisel had only to work on 1" of a cutting edge. A wider head would have dissipated the effort. I feel the same way about shovels/spades. The larger the blade the more the effort needed.

If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

[Steve Firth]

fred <tpmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]

> As an aside I watched an old electrician cut a channel in a wall one
> time. He used a 1" wide cold chisel. When I thought about it he was
> right. Each blow on the head of the chisel had only to work on 1" of a
> cutting edge. A wider head would have dissipated the effort. I feel the
> same way about shovels/spades. The larger the blade the more the effort needed.
>
> If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

But English spades have a blade that is about 8 inches wide. They are
equivalent to the use of a bolster in the example you give. A digging
shovel has a pointed blade, it is much easier to kick into clay, boulder
clay or stony soil than an English spade.

Oddly I've brevet experienced a digging shovel twisting in use. And the
digging variety has a heavier blade with a thick top edge, they are not the
stamped from tin objects that you imagine.

I can't buy an English spade in any local DIY shed or garden centre. No one
uses them. All the shovels are marked "Svenska" and are tough and designed
for digging.

Let's call them long handled spades. Are you all happy now?

BTW given comments about twisting and the blade cutting into one's foot,
perhaps giving work boots a try rather than moccasins would be a good idea?

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[ARW]

Nothing stopping four council workers from watching the fifth one having a
go at leaning on one:-)


--
Adam

[Steve Firth]

John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:

> > My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
> > shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.
>
> I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
> them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
> of tool for the job.

Paving Expert has an interesting observation on the use of them, he
says:

"you have to grow up using [a long handled shovel] to really understand
how best to use it. In the hands of a novice, or even when used by
someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward
and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of
superb finesse. "

http://www.pavingexpert.com/tools01.htm

I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
doesn't know what the is talking about.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 22, 2013 8:51:52 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
> John Rumm <see.my.s...@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > My theory is simple and concise. They don't use the long-handles "Irish
>
> > > shovels", as recommended by Steve, because they're crap for digging.
>
> >
>
> > I would disagree, since I have heard many people extol the virtues of
>
> > them for digging, and in many countries it would be the default pattern
>
> > of tool for the job.
>
>
>
> Paving Expert has an interesting observation on the use of them, he
>
> says:
>
>
>
> "you have to grow up using [a long handled shovel] to really understand
>
> how best to use it. In the hands of a novice, or even when used by
>
> someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward
>
> and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of
>
> superb finesse. "
>
>
>
> http://www.pavingexpert.com/tools01.htm
>
>

Oh deary me!

That is almost funny, it's such a pathetic attempt at avoiding facing up to the facts and admitting that you were mistaken and your earlier posts were bullshit.

You have missed out the title and the last bit of the quote. So, to correct any attempted misinformation, I post it in full.

"Irish shovel
Widely used throughout Ireland, this is one of those yokes that you have to grow up using to really understand how best to use it.

In the hands of a novice, or even when used by someone more familiar with a D- or T-handled spade, they can be awkward and unwieldy, but in the hands of a regular user, they are a tool of superb finesse.

I'm less impressed with them as a digging tool, but for shifting and levelling loose aggregates, they have no equal."

So, as the man says, it is a shovel, good for shovelling, no good for digging.

Please also see the end of that article.


"Shovel or Spade?
So? Is it a shovel or is it a spade? What's the difference, and does it matter?
Well, quite frankly, does it 'eck! You might call a spade a spade, but lots of folk call a spade a shovel, and vice versa.

My dictionary reveals that a Spade, from the Old English spadu or Latin spatha, is a "long-handled digging tool with a flat blade that is pressed with the foot", while a Shovel, from the Old English scofl, is a "long-handled tool with a broad scoop or blade used in lifting and moving loose material".

So that's that - you dig with a spade: you shift stuff with a shovel. Clear as mud, eh? "

>
> I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
>
> doesn't know what the is talking about.

You are correct, Mr. Firth. I have never used a shovel, either long or short handled, to dig a hole. I'd always use a spade.

I doubt that you have ever done any serious digging, but I am not interested.
My only aim was to correct your misleading posts.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:42 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:
>
> Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an American device.

I'd thought the long handled spade thing was German or East European and was exported to America with the immigrants.

I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle. I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut. Maybe the soil types make its use preferable in some locations.

> If you want to dig, use a spade. If you want to shovel, use a shovel. Don't arse around.

Absolutely.

[Onetap]

On Monday, July 22, 2013 1:41:26 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:

> Ye can continue to argue this amongst yourselves but the above is the gospel according to St. Pat

Credo.
Amen to that.

[John Rumm]

On 22/07/2013 21:23, Onetap wrote:
> On Monday, July 22, 2013 2:50:42 PM UTC+1, fred wrote:
>>
>> Never, never saw one of those in Ireland.It appears to be an
>> American device.
>
> I'd thought the long handled spade thing was German or East European
> and was exported to America with the immigrants.
>
> I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a
> D-handle. I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut. Maybe the soil
> types make its use preferable in some locations.

There is a shorter F Handled version :

http://www.amazon.com/Fiskars-9669-Digging-Shovel/dp/B000F3DUW2/ref=pd_rhf_cr_s_cp_7_C368?ie=UTF8&refRID=04HB41RKTH8D331YC368

[Dave Liquorice]

On Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT), Onetap wrote:

> I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle.

They probably work fine for digging ie cutting the sod and turning in
the hole. But for shifting stuff from the hole up onto to the side or
barrow, the thing is very likely to twist and dump it's load back in
the hole. You can grip the shaft to try and stop it twisting but that
doesn't always work and is more effort compared to holding a D or T
handle. Also the shape and lack of any decent upturn on the sides
means it won't hold as much as a proper shovel will.

--
Cheers
Dave.

[Steve Firth]

Oh FFS. The long handle means you can get the spoil out of the hole faster
and to a higher location than with a short handled spade. What you call
"proper" shovels are harder to use because they encourage the user to lift
too much and put their back out in the process. A long handled shovel works
on the "little and often" basis to make the job much easier.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

> I've never used one, I can't see the attraction compared to a D-handle.
> I'd try it, but think I'm too set in my rut.

That one, as I said.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Onetap <one...@talk21.com> wrote:

>> I'm perfectly willing to accept that OneCrap has never used one and
>> doesn't know what the is talking about.
>
> You are correct, Mr. Firth. I have never used a shovel, either long or
> short handled, to dig a hole. I'd always use a spade.

So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant gobshite.

It took time but even you have had to admit it.

> I doubt that you have ever done any serious digging, but I am not interested.

You're so not interested that you stalk me.

> My only aim was to correct your misleading posts.

You're also a liar. Your only aim is to have a poke at me because you're a
mindless vindictive cowardly moron hiding behind an alias because you're
too much of a coward to sign your name to the shit you post.

My post was not misleading and all you are doing is to prove that I was
right.

Using your "logic" what makes you think an Englush spade is the ideal tool
for digging when rest of the world disagrees with you?

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <1l6ffmr.lkqzvhyq0mmqN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>,

> I would find the lack of handle would make it it difficult to use.

Errm it has a handle. The long thing that you hold.

I've not experienced one twisting in my hands in use, but I suspect as
paving expert says, it's all down to practice. I've also not experienced
blades bending or cutting into my feet but I wear boots when digging and
buy tools that aren't made from tinfoil.

The ones I use have a forged blade.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant gobshite.
>
>
>
> It took time but even you have had to admit it.

No.

It has been established that two of the things you recommended for digging and posted links to were shovels.
Shovels are intended for shovelling loose material and are unsuitable for digging.

We also established that you did not know the difference between a shovel and a spade.
Fortunately, I did and was on hand to correct you.
So I did.

I knew the difference simply because I have dug a few holes.
Your claims of digging expertise are dubious; readers will have formed their own opinions.
I suspect you're a bullshitter.

Shovels are suitable for shovelling bullshit.
I am enjoying your efforts at trying to dig yourself out of the mountain of bullshit you have buried yourself in.

To be fair, the third item you posted was an actual spade, intended for digging.

> You're so not interested that you stalk me.

No.

I'm sorry if I shatter your illusions, but you are not of the slightest interest to me.
If you refrain from posting bullshit, THEN we shall have no cross words.
You posted bullshit about digging, you posted an implausible shaggy dog story about naked people who, you claim, stalk your garden.

> You're also a liar. Your only aim is to have a poke at me because you're a
>
> mindless vindictive cowardly moron hiding behind an alias because you're
>
> too much of a coward to sign your name to the shit you post.

I don't use my name because there are too many weirdos, bunny boilers and obsessive, compulsive, deranged, aspergers-afflicted, billy-no-mates, trolling morons wasting their pointless lives on the internet by picking fights.

Your posts in this thread alone justifies my caution.

> My post was not misleading and all you are doing is to prove that I was
> right.

You recommended shovels, for digging. Misleading. The only similarity is in the shape. Anyone who has dug holes would know the difference.

> Using your "logic" what makes you think an Englush spade is the ideal tool
>
> for digging when rest of the world disagrees with you?

I think a spade is the tool best suited for digging.
Some prefer a long handle, but it would be awkward in a trench.
I think you'd have difficulty in finding a proper 'German-type' spade in the UK since I doubt there is much demand. I haven't looked, i don't want one.
You'd probably have to fit a long handle to an English spade head.

[Tim Lamb]

In message
<464575785396275411.828045%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org
>, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes

>I've not experienced one twisting in my hands in use, but I suspect as
>paving expert says, it's all down to practice. I've also not experienced
>blades bending or cutting into my feet but I wear boots when digging and
>buy tools that aren't made from tinfoil.

If it is safe here....

As has been said, at lot depends on the job and the type of soil. I have
only ever dug holes in Hertfordshire which could be soft chalk but more
likely a few inches of flinty topsoil over flint studded boulder clay.
Anything with a square edge would only be used for removing loosened
soil and creating a flat bottom to the trench. The distance would be to
a nearby barrow or just clear of the trench edge so long handles not
helpful.

Digging would be by heavy, D handled 4 pronged fork unless penetration
could only be achieved with a pickaxe.

I use a forged, square edge, D handled shovel for removing soil not got
out with the fork.

This may not be the best/only way to do the job but it works for me and
I am too old to change:-)

>
>The ones I use have a forged blade.
>

--

Tim Lamb

[RobertL]

Sorry, but I have to quote from Oscar Wilde:


CECILY
...When I see a spade I call it a spade.

GWENDOLEN
I am glad to say that I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different.

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant gobshite.

I won't be posting on this thread any more, it has run its course and served it's purpose.

Spades are for digging, shovels are for shovelling.

If Firth wants to try to explain why he censored the relevant bits out of that quote from the Paving Expert site, I'd really like to read that.

I don't like the shouty, abusive persona he adopts to try to dominate this group, but I've no interest in him and I don't track his posts.

I probably read about 1 in 6 of the threads on here and only posted in this one because I knew that some readers would be misled by what was being recommended.

[John Rumm]

On 23/07/2013 15:09, Onetap wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
>
>> So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant
>> gobshite.
>>
>>
>>
>> It took time but even you have had to admit it.
>
> No.
>
> It has been established that two of the things you recommended for
> digging and posted links to were shovels. Shovels are intended for
> shovelling loose material and are unsuitable for digging.

Does the manufacturers description (not to mention the 100+ Amazon
reviews) of the "digging shovel" not give you pause for thought on that?

> We also established that you did not know the difference between a
> shovel and a spade. Fortunately, I did and was on hand to correct
> you. So I did.

You gave what I would consider to the be the "correct" use of the terms
*in the UK*. However it does appear that other's don't have the same
rigid differentiation that we apply.

[Tim Downie]

John Rumm wrote:
> On 23/07/2013 15:09, Onetap wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
>>
>>> So we've established that I'm correct and you're an ignorant
>>> gobshite.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It took time but even you have had to admit it.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> It has been established that two of the things you recommended for
>> digging and posted links to were shovels. Shovels are intended for
>> shovelling loose material and are unsuitable for digging.
>
> Does the manufacturers description (not to mention the 100+ Amazon
> reviews) of the "digging shovel" not give you pause for thought on
> that?
>> We also established that you did not know the difference between a
>> shovel and a spade. Fortunately, I did and was on hand to correct
>> you. So I did.
>
> You gave what I would consider to the be the "correct" use of the
> terms *in the UK*. However it does appear that other's don't have the
> same rigid differentiation that we apply.

That may be true but, I have to say, we in the UK are just simply *right*.
The rest of the world has got it wrong. ;-)

Tim

[Onetap]

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 3:39:33 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

> Does the manufacturers description (not to mention the 100+ Amazon
>
> reviews) of the "digging shovel" not give you pause for thought on that?

I'm not sure what you're on about.
I meant these links;

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:49:45 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

> MrWeld <MrWeld> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier?
>
>
>

> Get a proper digging shovel with a long handle. The types of spades in
>
> common use in the UK are useless for digging. I speak here as someone
>
> who spent the last two weeks digging a 3m cubed hole and 48 metres of
>
> trench in a mixture of extremely stony ground and thick clay.
>
>
>
> I mean shovels like this:
>
>
>
> http://www.toolbox.co.uk/bulldog-bul2309-west-country-4091-90750
>
> http://www.toolbox.co.uk/spear-jackson-irish-shovel-4091-132602
>
>
>
> or for narrow trenches:
>
> http://www.toolbox.co.uk/draper-21301-long-handled-16207-120511
>

First 2 are shovels, unsuited for digging, despite what anyone may say. The Irish shovel could be used for 'light digging' (manufacturer's description).
The other one looks too flimsy. No flats, for a boot, on either. Both meant only for shovelling.
2 reviews of one, none for the other.

The 3rd is an actual spade, for digging.

> You gave what I would consider to the be the "correct" use of the terms
>
> *in the UK*. However it does appear that other's don't have the same
>
> rigid differentiation that we apply.

Yes; would you buy a spade or shovel from a manufacturer who didn't know the correct terms?
Most of the 'manufacturers' are importing from China and clueless about their products.

I looked at Spear & Jackson's (only name that came to mind; I bought one of their spades a year or so back) site, they seem to stick to the correct terms. Some of their products look very like othet makers', except for the label. Drapers call everything shovels.

[Tim Watts]

On Tuesday 23 July 2013 15:09 Onetap wrote in uk.d-i-y:


Isn't the correct answer "hire a digger"?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

[Steve Firth]

Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <464575785396275411.828045%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org> ,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:


> *smack* Thass the shaft, I'm talking about the lack of a D handle at the top of the shaft.

I'm terribly sorry that my use of standard English caused such confusion.

> If I ever get practiced at using one, then something has gone wrong.

I bet you use a PC.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Steve Firth]

Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <846489880396285434.682417%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.or

>> ,
> Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

>> I bet you use a PC.
>

> Ah, give over. You know better than that.

Indeed but it was the most Dismissive comment I could think of.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Mark]

Onetap wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:48:17 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:
>

>
>> You're so not interested that you stalk me.
>
> No.
> I'm sorry if I shatter your illusions, but you are not of the slightest
> interest to me.

i think you should Killfile S Firth and forget you ever heard of him.
He seems to suffer from a Delusional disorder about the things he has done
and owned.
from his web site,
“What a great idea. Prove what car you own by posting a photo of the car
showing it with a tin of custard. I started with a picture of my car, and as
I get the custard tin from place to place I’ll photograph it with my other
vehicles.”
http://www.malloc.co.uk/malloc/Photos.html


-

[Mr Fuxit]

On Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:13:50 UTC+1, MrWeld wrote:
> Over the next few months I will need to dig lots of holes, each about
>
> 90cm deep by 50cm wide by 3 metres long. The soil is quite stony, and
>
> gets extremely sticky in the wet.
>
>
>
> I only want to dig one hole per weekend, and access is very limited, so
>
> I don't think hiring a mini-digger is justified.
>
>
>
> I have the upper body strength of a computer programmer, but each
>
> weekend of digging brings noticeable, if temporary, improvements in that
>
> area, so that's a reason I would prefer to dig myself rather than get a
>
> machine or a person to dig for me.
>
>
>
> So far I've got these tools:
>
> - Large spade and medium spade.
>
> - Heavy narrow trenching spade.
>
> - Post hole diggers (both the heavy chopping blade thing, and the
>
> two-handled scoopy thing).
>
> - Shovel
>
> - Protective gloves and boots
>
>
>
> Are there any tips on how to make digging these holes easier? Any other
>
> tools I could buy? Is it just a case of pacing myself? Does digging get
>
> much easier when you're doing it every day?



Forget tools, technique, pacing yourself just dig the fuckers somewhere softer and end this thread!