Notice regards removal of uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth
Iain Bowen
Whilst the foot and mouth epidemic is still continuing on, control notes
that:
a) usage and particularly non-crossposted usage of the group has declined
rapidly.
b) The maximum lifetime of the group is 27th August unless an RFD is
raised for a permanent group.
Iain
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Graham Drabble
news:notice-uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth-20010716182448$54a9@harle
ch.demon.co.uk:
> Whilst the foot and mouth epidemic is still continuing on, control
> notes that:
>
> a) usage and particularly non-crossposted usage of the group has
> declined rapidly.
>
> b) The maximum lifetime of the group is 27th August unless an RFD
> is raised for a permanent group.
Is anyone interested in extending the life of the group? I'm happy to
write an RFD if people want it continued. I suspect that there is a 3rd
option if people feel (as I do) that a permanent group is unnecessary.
I would imagine that an RFD to extend the groups life by X (3?) months
would be accepted although it may attract opposition in
uk.net.news.config.
For your information I have performed a quick traffic analysis of the
period between July 8th and July 16th. In this time there were 88 posts
to the group. These were cross-posted as follows:
(uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth is not included to save space)
Groups: Number
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural,
uk.local.yorkshire,uk.politics.misc,uk.politics.animals 2
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.net.news.announce,uk.net.news.config,
uk.business.agriculture 1
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth only 12
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural 5
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural,
uk.politics.animals 22
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture, 14
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,,uk.current-events.general,
uk.media.tv.misc,uk.media.tv.sf.x-files,
uk.misc,uk.music.breakbeat,uk.music.makers.dj,
uk.music.rave,uk.people.rural,uk.politics.animals,
uk.politics.misc,uk.sci.misc 4
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural,
uk.politics.animals,uk.environment,uk.food+drink.misc,
uk.org.starlink.misc,uk.sci.misc 4
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.environment,
uk.environment.conservation, 2
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural,
uk.politics.misc,uk.politics.animals 2
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.local.yorkshire,
uk.politics.animals 13
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
uk.business.agriculture,uk.people.rural,
uk.local.yorkshire,uk.politics.animals 1
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Note that whilst I beleive the above is accurate it is subject to the
completeness of my news servers and my ablity to count.]
From this, and given that only 13% of posts are not cross posted (all
the rest being cross posted to uba), I suspect that the best approach
is to let the group be removed as proposed.
--
Graham Drabble
FCS
news:Xns90E17F7BCAB60gr...@127.0.0.1...
> Iain Bowen <con...@usenet.org.uk> wrote in
> news:notice-uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth-20010716182448$54a9@harle
> ch.demon.co.uk:
>
> > Whilst the foot and mouth epidemic is still continuing on, control
> > notes that:
> >
> > a) usage and particularly non-crossposted usage of the group has
> > declined rapidly.
> >
> > b) The maximum lifetime of the group is 27th August unless an RFD
> > is raised for a permanent group.
>
> Is anyone interested in extending the life of the group? I'm happy to
> write an RFD if people want it continued. I suspect that there is a 3rd
> option if people feel (as I do) that a permanent group is unnecessary.
> I would imagine that an RFD to extend the groups life by X (3?) months
> would be accepted although it may attract opposition in
> uk.net.news.config.
A three month extension probably wouldn't be long enough to catch discussion
of those parts of the strategy that haven't been implemented yet. Since they
are a long way off I'd have thought those issues would be caught by other
newsgroups anyway.
I don't know if anything of any interest, or relevance, or new is likely to
come up in the meantime but it looks like everyone is settling down to their
usual hunting grounds.
Probably best to let it go.
(snip)
John
Michael Saunby
reliable source of information and that if anything
uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth has been more of a looney magnet it might
be best that it goes sooner rather than later. There are after all
permanent locations to discuss the farming implications, animal rights
stuff, and impact on rural communities, plus the local groups for local
issues.
Michael Saunby
"Graham Drabble" <graham....@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:Xns90E17F7BCAB60gr...@127.0.0.1...
J B
news:995445671.22436.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Given that uk.business.agriculture has throughout the epidemic been the
more
> reliable source of information and that if anything
> uk.current-events.foot-and-mouth has been more of a looney magnet it might
> be best that it goes sooner rather than later.
On the other hand ....... why not keep the loonies 'over there' and leave
ukba to us 'sensible' folk!
--
J B
Kelly and Sandy
harlech.demon.co.uk>, Iain Bowen <con...@usenet.org.uk> wrote
>Whilst the foot and mouth epidemic is still continuing on, control notes
>that:
>
>a) usage and particularly non-crossposted usage of the group has declined
>rapidly.
>
>b) The maximum lifetime of the group is 27th August unless an RFD is
>raised for a permanent group.
>
>Iain "In Germany, the Nazis came for the Communists and I
didn't speak up because I was not a Communist. Then they
came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I was
not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I
didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I was a Protestant
so I didn't speak up. Then they came for me... By that
time there was no one to speak up for anyone."
Martin Niemoller (1892-1984)
Dear Iain Bowen,
Whilst I agree with your point 'a', that real discussion has all but
died away in this temporary crisis newsgroup, I do not believe that this
means that the Foot and Mouth crisis has gone away. Rather -- the exact
opposite is true.
Now that the elections have passed, and Mr. Blair's government has
got back in power, the ongoing Foot and Mouth crisis has very much
become a background issue for the public Media, for the telly. So much
so, that a great many people up and down the country genuinely believe
that the FMD crisis is over and done with. However, I myself live in
North Yorkshire where the DEFRA's extermination squads are currently
operating, driving up and down the A19. So even if I wanted to, I
simply _cannot_ evade understanding what's really going down: The
deliberate destruction of British farming (under the mere guise of a
foot & mouth epidemic) by DEFRA is proceeding with the same break-neck
ferocity as before the election on June 7th, when it was called MAFF...
Yorkshire Post, Front page, Monday 16 July 2001
VETS' FURY AT FARMS CRISIS 'FAILURE'
------------------------------------
[excerpt of the 2nd half of the article]
The vets' spokesman Paul Roger, a partner in a
Richmond practice, told the Yorkshire Post: "We are
getting conflicting advice from DEFRA. This agency has
changed nothing except its headed notepaper. It's
interpreting directives in different ways -- sometimes
you even get different answers to the same question from
people working in the same office.
"In the Settle-Clitheroe area, we have further
agricultural movement reductions while at the same time
DEFRA is calling for open access to the countryside. It
gives disparate messages to the public and farmers,
saying on the one hand 'we're in a desperate situation'
and on the other 'you can walk where you like.'
"It's incredibly dangerous to open footpaths when we
don't know where the next outbreak is going to occur.
There's a lack of co-ordination, communication,
interpretation and implementation of an effective
strategy."
His comments came as it was confirmed rights of way
in the Horton-in-Ribblesdale area are being opened from
next Friday, lifting restrictions on the Three Peaks
walk.
Mr Roger added: "The level of available information
has been really poor since the start of this outbreak.
We supplied DEFRA with our e-mail addresses so we could
be kept updated, but we have had absolutely nothing by
that route so far."
He complained that parts of DEFRA's foot and mouth
website had been difficult or impossible to access,
causing uncertainty among vets over where infected
premises and suspected outbreaks were.
"We are very conscious of bio-security but it's very
difficult to plan your route around an area where you
are unsure what is going on.
"Very often the only way we can find out is from the
farmers themselves but it's embarrassing, and unfeeling
on the part of DEFRA, for us to have to get this
information from our clients who are under an incredible
amount of psychological and emotional pressure already.
Because of this poor communication, the rumour mill
works overtime. We have no way of suppressing rumours
or explaining what's going on because we don't know."
He urged the Government to pump money into rural
areas which were facing the threat of an even worse
crisis next year.
Autumn livestock sales, where many farmers gained
the bulk of their income, would be hit by the crisis and
if breeding stocks were lost farmers face another blank
year in 2002.
"We are in crash mode as far as the rural economy
goes. All sectors of the local economy are being
affected. We need support now because there will be a
time when banks call time as people's overdrafts go up
in leaps and bounds."
But a DEFRA spokesman said: "We have done our best
under difficult circumstances with this unprecedented
nationwide foot and mouth crisis to keep vets' practices
up to speed and made sure people are contactable. If
the vets wish to contact DEFRA direct we would be more
than happy to discuss their concerns."
Another case was confirmed and 251 cattle
slaughtered at Nether Silton, near Thirsk, over the
weekend, bringing the total in Yorkshire to 120.
mailto:david....@ypn.co.uk
To blithely remove the Usenet newsgroup "uk.current-events.foot-and-
mouth", ignoring signs beyond the Media (news on the goggle-box) silence
on the FMD crisis -- is to ignore a catastrophe decimating the whole of
the life of the British Isles.
F&M destroyed so much we hold dear
----------------------------------
I AM writing to the readers of your paper regarding the
tragic plight of the countryside, which, at present, is
being ravaged by foot and mouth.
People in many areas have been led to believe that
foot and mouth is at worst under control and best over,
all but the odd one or two cases. Sadly, this is not
the case ... we are in fact slaughtering more animals
now than at any time during the outbreak. Instead the
Government has done a great job in concealing the truth
and massaging the figures. A recent case in Cumbria saw
one farm, directly affected by foot and mouth and 25
surrounding farms 'taken out' too. These however, don't
count as outbreaks now but as part of a contiguous cull.
This disease has torn the very soul out of the
countryside. It has destroyed so much that we hold so
dear.
We have been forced to witness such terrible scenes
of tragic brutality and blatant cruelty. Burning pyres,
mass burial pits, mass slaughter, blood running across
roads from the amount of blood pouring from slaughtered
sheep, lorries with dead cattle falling from the back,
slaughtermen taking pot shots at our animals. Lambs
being born into and dying in, a quagmire of mud -- yet
no one could help them. Now we hear of stories of lambs
and piglets being finished off with hammers.
This is our country. This is the best we could do.
This is 21st century Britain. I am appalled to be part
of this. I am appalled to be part of a country where
apathy allows us to turn a blind eye and ignore the
suffering of both people and animals.
It did not need to be like this -- it could have
been different. We need to ensure that people know what
is going on. We need to bring this disease to a speedy
conclusion. We need to end the barbaric slaughter and
cruelty.
If any of your readers have been affected, either by
what they have been forced to witness, or being directly
involved with having their animals slaughtered, or are
suffering due to the financial backlash of this disease
then please, I urge them to contact us.
We want to establish a network of people opposed to
the way the Government is handling FMD and work in the
same direction to help bring it to a speedy conclusion.
We can be contacted at 2 Mellish Way, Hornchurch,
Essex, RM11 2GU.
SUE BURTON
Remus Memorial Horse Sanctuary
( Yorkshire Gazette and Herald, page 8, Thursday 12 July 2001 )
We've all been doing it since around the mid-eighties, but now it
has finally gotten to the point where it is DANGEROUS to ignore and deny
in our hearts what's going on around us. Things are so serious now,
that in a few short years, it will be the turn of people in the South,
in London. Who knows what lies in store then. The police are already
beginning to "shoot first and ask questions later" as the recent killing
of the sword-wielding mentally disturbed man in his pyjamas in Leicester
demonstrates.
Yes, we can still deny and ignore in our hearts what's happening,
but at our peril. As the hero warns at the end of the "Invasion of the
Bodysnatchers" 1956 McArthy-era film:
"You're next! YOU'RE NEXT!"
With kind regards,
Sandy
/* C A U T I O N E X P L O S I V E B O L T S
-- REMOVE BEFORE ENGAGING REPLY
//
// Kelly and Sandy Anderson <kel...@explosive-alma-services-bolts.co.uk>
// (alternatively kelsan_odoodle at ya who period, see oh em)
// Alexander (Sandy) 1B5A DF3D A3D9 B932 39EB 3F1B 981F 4110 27E1 64A4
// Kelly 673F 6751 6DBA 196F E8A8 6D87 4AEC F35E E9AD 099B
// Homepages http://www.explosive-alma-services-bolts.co.uk/
*/
James Coupe
<ju...@almide.demon.co.uk> writes
> "In Germany, the Nazis came for the Communists and I
> didn't speak up because I was not a Communist. Then they
> came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I was
> not a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I
> didn't speak up because I was not a trade unionist.
> Then they came for the Catholics and I was a Protestant
> so I didn't speak up. Then they came for me... By that
> time there was no one to speak up for anyone."
Attempting emotive comparisons with Nazism is unlikely to help you.
The rules clearly state that if you want to group to remain as a
permanent group now, you have to do that yourself. The procedure is
simple enough and well-documented. If you need some help, ask Control
to put you in touch with a mentor.
Some temporary groups are just that - entirely temporary. Others need a
longer life-span, which you can have if you RFD it successfully. There
is no need to start citing news-papers as they do not over-turn the
guidelines on the life-span of uk.current-events.* groups.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1F
She twirled a lock of hair around her forefinger and smiled B457CA213D7E6
faintly. "Actually, I'd settle for a small Greek." 68C3695D623D5D
Dave Mayall
> Dear Iain Bowen,
Iain is busy today, but since you posted your message rather than e-mailing
it, I presume that you are happy for anybody to respond to it
> Whilst I agree with your point 'a', that real discussion has all but
> died away in this temporary crisis newsgroup, I do not believe that this
> means that the Foot and Mouth crisis has gone away. Rather -- the exact
> opposite is true.
Iain's notice didn't claim that F+M had gone away.
[snip many lines of newspaper article that is irrelevant to the notice]
> To blithely remove the Usenet newsgroup "uk.current-events.foot-and-
> mouth", ignoring signs beyond the Media (news on the goggle-box) silence
> on the FMD crisis -- is to ignore a catastrophe decimating the whole of
> the life of the British Isles.
The newsgroup was created under emergency powers that facilitate setting
up a newsgroup without discussion. Those emergency powers have a limited
extent, and the committee cannot indefinitely prolong the newsgroup.
If continuation is required, a formal proposal and discussion is required.
[snip more self-indulgent quoting that is irrelevant to the removal]
A temporary group has a MAXIMUM life of 180 days. If a longer term is required,
there remains ample time to submit a proposal for the extension. posting diatribes
against Control/The Committee for carrying out their function under the Guidelines
for Group Creation won't get you anywhere.
--
Dave Mayall
swroot
My thoughts almost (leave out the 'sensible') exactly.
regards
sarah
--
'Such truth as crosses no man's pleasure nor profit is
to all men welcome.'
Thomas Hobbes
Iain Bowen
Dave Mayall <may...@consignia.com> wrote:
>Kelly and Sandy wrote:
>
>> Dear Iain Bowen,
>
>Iain is busy today, but since you posted your message rather than e-mailing
>it, I presume that you are happy for anybody to respond to it
They emailed it as well.
*sigh*
Iain (as Control)
--
\/ Member of the UK Usenet Committee, also Control for uk.*
Full information on uk.* newsgroups at http://www.usenet.org.uk
Iain Bowen. in deepest B13. Also available at alaric(at)alaric.org.uk
"I have measured out my life with coffee spoons"
David G. Bell
<BWakW3Ac...@almide.demon.co.uk>
I've snipped the rest of the "Kelly and Sandy" post, because it's rather
typical of their behaviour. They have a pattern of rather wild cross-
posting of quotes from newspapers and other sources. At least this one
is relevant to the Foot and Mouth outbreak, though it seems excessive
for the cross-post.
At least they don't argue that the outbreak is over. It isn't, and
anyone who claims that the newsgroup should be removed because the lack
of headlines shows that it isn't needed is, at best, wilfully ignorant.
But their posting history is also, alas, a good example of what had
killed the newsgroup.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
If I were to go back to my schooldays, knowing what I know now, I would
pack cheese sandwiches for lunch.
David G. Bell
may...@consignia.com "Dave Mayall" wrote:
> Kelly and Sandy wrote:
>
> [snip many lines of newspaper article that is irrelevant to the notice]
>
> > To blithely remove the Usenet newsgroup "uk.current-events.foot-and-
> > mouth", ignoring signs beyond the Media (news on the goggle-box) silence
> > on the FMD crisis -- is to ignore a catastrophe decimating the whole of
> > the life of the British Isles.
>
> The newsgroup was created under emergency powers that facilitate setting
> up a newsgroup without discussion. Those emergency powers have a limited
> extent, and the committee cannot indefinitely prolong the newsgroup.
>
> If continuation is required, a formal proposal and discussion is required.
>
> [snip more self-indulgent quoting that is irrelevant to the removal]
>
> A temporary group has a MAXIMUM life of 180 days. If a longer term is required,
> there remains ample time to submit a proposal for the extension. posting
> diatribes
> against Control/The Committee for carrying out their function under the
> Guidelines
> for Group Creation won't get you anywhere.
Thanks for the fuller explanation, Dave. I've taken the liberty of
adding a cross-posting to uk.business.agriculture, since uk.current-
events.foot-and-mouth doesn't seem to be read by many farmers (and
people such as Kelly and Sandy are a reason why we've pulled out).
Followups are set to the config newsgroup. I've been involved with
newsgroup creation before, and if any other farmers think it's worth
taking that path, I'm willing to help out. But I still carry the scars
from the Babylon 5 spoiler wars, and there are too many fucking idiots
out there.
Jim Webster
J B <i.don...@my.email.address.invalid> wrote in message
news:cAc57.46360$WS4.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> ukba to us 'sensible' folk!
>
trouble is that they just x post. Last time I looked there wasn't a thread
on that group which wasn't composed entirely of x posts, all with uba
--
Jim Webster
"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"
'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'
>
> --
> J B
>
>
Dave Roberts
>The newsgroup was created under emergency powers that facilitate setting
>up a newsgroup without discussion. Those emergency powers have a limited
>extent, and the committee cannot indefinitely prolong the newsgroup.
>
>If continuation is required, a formal proposal and discussion is required.
I would suggest the group has run it's course. FMD is on it's last legs
thanks to the superb efforts of Tony Blair.
There is no useful discussion here anymore, just a load of crossposted
bollocks from two people who have killed off the group with their
rubbish.
Shame.....
Cheers
Dave
--
'There's no one left to vote for only fools to vote against.'
Roy Harper 2000
Jezza
<20010718.18...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk>,
db...@zhochaka.demon.co.uk ("David G. Bell") uttered:
<snip>
>At least they don't argue that the outbreak is over. It isn't, and
>anyone who claims that the newsgroup should be removed because the lack
>of headlines shows that it isn't needed is, at best, wilfully ignorant.
But the point is that if you want the newsgroup to continue after
August 27th then someone has to RFD it!
It has nothing to do with whether the outbreak still continues,
which I agree it does.
It has everything to do with the fact that this is a temporary
newsgroup established by the "quick creation" process and it is
now coming up to the end of the period of time that such groups
are allowed to exits.
It's all there in the uk.current-events.* charter at:
<URL: http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.current-events>
--
Jezza, Hotwells, Bristol
Bristol Music Guide
<http://www.hotwells.freeserve.co.uk/brismusic.html
Jezza
<snip>
> To blithely remove the Usenet newsgroup "uk.current-events.foot-and-
>mouth", ignoring signs beyond the Media (news on the goggle-box) silence
>on the FMD crisis -- is to ignore a catastrophe decimating the whole of
>the life of the British Isles.
>
Please read the charter of the uk.current-events.* hierarchy at:
<http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.current-events
Also please re-read Iain Bowen's notice at the beginning of this
thread.
If you really want the group to continue then you can achieve
your result by submitting an RFD. It is not that complicated.
IF you need help then mail men...@uk-mentors.org.uk
UK mentors is a group of people who specifically help others with
process of newsgroup creation.
--
Jezza, member of UK Mentors
<URL: http://www.uk-mentors.org.uk/>
MikeF
news:TTGJZ2AWSgV7Ew$W...@smartproof.fsnet.co.uk...
> I would suggest the group has run it's course. FMD is on it's last legs
> thanks to the superb efforts of Tony Blair.
You should make it clear when you're being sarcastic, some people will get
confused...
Kelly and Sandy
<je...@hotwells.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>It's all there in the uk.current-events.* charter at:
><URL: http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.current-events>
A-ha. Will look sometime.
Regards,
Kelly and Sandy
<je...@hotwells.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>Please read the charter of the uk.current-events.* hierarchy at:
><http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.current-events
>
>Also please re-read Iain Bowen's notice at the beginning of this
>thread.
>
>If you really want the group to continue then you can achieve
>your result by submitting an RFD. It is not that complicated.
>
>IF you need help then mail men...@uk-mentors.org.uk
>UK mentors is a group of people who specifically help others with
>process of newsgroup creation.
Roger, wilco. Just finished a mailshot out to several hundred
farmers in Yorkshire. Watching Roberto Benigni's "Life is Beautiful" to
wind down. Will look into RFD business over the weekend sometime.
Regards,
Jezza
<SknAKgAp...@almide.demon.co.uk>, Kelly and Sandy
<ju...@almide.demon.co.uk> uttered:
>In article <7c4cltkbt6q3osagk...@4ax.com>, Jezza
><je...@hotwells.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>
>>It's all there in the uk.current-events.* charter at:
>><URL: http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.current-events>
>
>
> A-ha. Will look sometime.
I suggest sooner rather than later, if you really want to keep
the newsgroup going.
--
Jezza, member of UK Mentors
Kelly and Sandy
<je...@hotwells.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>I suggest sooner rather than later, if you really want to keep
>the newsgroup going.
"I can't cook sausages for the entire hospital."
Britannia Hospital (EMI films, 1981)