Falling / to have fallen between two stools
Nathan Firby
literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
Is this as well known in England as it is in Germany? I certainly haven't
heard it before - but then, as I've mentioned before, I've been out of the
country for 23 years.
If I use this translation of the saying, will the meaning be immediately
understood by the reader?
I'd also really like to know how well known the saying is in America, as I
believe the poems are to be sent to an American.
Again, many thanks in advance to those who "come to the rescue" :-)
Nathan
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Howard Makin
Nathan Firby <Nathan.Firby@*no-spam*SoftXEL.com> wrote in message
news:8dkd52$s22$1...@news.online.de...
for Americans, but I think they wouldn't have any difficulty with it either.
Howard
K. Edgcombe
Howard Makin <ho...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>Nathan Firby <Nathan.Firby@*no-spam*SoftXEL.com> wrote in message
>news:8dkd52$s22$1...@news.online.de...
>> There's a saying in German, "sich zwischen zwei Stühle setzen" which
>> literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
>> indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>>
>> Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
>> saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
>> saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
>>
>> Is this as well known in England as it is in Germany? I certainly haven't
>> heard it before - but then, as I've mentioned before, I've been out of the
>> country for 23 years.
"To fall between two stools" is certainly quite a common saying in England, but
my impression (and now I come to think of it I'm not at all certain) is that it
is used to mean failing to get what you want or need either by one route or
another, rather than having to make a decision and being torn.
I've heard it applied particularly where an individual might have got financial
help, say, from one of two sources, but didn't in fact get either because each
source assumed the other would deal with the problem.
But this may be a misuse of an original meaning much the same as the German; I
don't know.
Katy
Old Curmudgeon
I've read of it being applied to a football team which was
chasing both league and cup honours and finished up with
neither. So I think the precise meaning may be a little vague. I
hope this doesn't cause Nathan to fall between two stools or
change horses in mid stream.
--
Roy Archer
http://www.fonts.org.uk free fonts
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-
Molly
Firby (Nathan Firby <Nathan.Firby@*no-spam*SoftXEL.com>) wrote
>There's a saying in German, "sich zwischen zwei Stühle setzen" which
>literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
>indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>
>Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
>saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
>saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
>
>Is this as well known in England as it is in Germany?
I wouldn't think that "falling between two stools" means "indecisive or
torn between two possibilities". That meaning, I think, would be
covered by "on the horns of a dilemma". To me, "falling between two
stools" means missing out on two separate things, either of which would
have been desirable - e.g., one's income is too low to enable one to
make an essential purchase, but too high to entitle one to a grant
towards such a purchase.
--
Molly (change nospam to orbs to email me)
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com for a totally free and simple way
to donate food to the hungry. (Go on, try it!)
AMAR GABRIEL
8dkd52$s22$1...@news.online.de...
> There's a saying in German, "sich zwischen zwei Stühle setzen" which
> literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
> indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>
> Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
> saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
> saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
>
> heard it before - but then, as I've mentioned before, I've been out of the
> country for 23 years.
>
> understood by the reader?
>
> I'd also really like to know how well known the saying is in America, as I
> believe the poems are to be sent to an American.
>
> Again, many thanks in advance to those who "come to the rescue" :-)
>
>
> Nathan
I just found it funny that the equivalent expression in French is "avoir le
cul entre deux chaises", literally: "to have one's arse between two chairs".
It sounds rather less formal but it is used very often, and not always in
casual contexts...
Gabriel
Phil C.
Molly <mo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:M7oF7dBS4d$4E...@mockfords.freeserve.co.uk...
> I wouldn't think that "falling between two stools" means
"indecisive or
> torn between two possibilities". That meaning, I think, would be
> covered by "on the horns of a dilemma". To me, "falling between
two
> stools" means missing out on two separate things, either of which
would
> have been desirable - e.g., one's income is too low to enable one
to
> make an essential purchase, but too high to entitle one to a grant
> towards such a purchase.
Wasn`t it Winston Churchill who referred to "stalling between two
fools"?
-- .
Phil C.
________________________________________
philandwoody*at*meem*dot*freeserve*dot*co*dot*uk
JBG
<Nathan.Firby@*no-spam*SoftXEL.com> wrote:
>There's a saying in German, "sich zwischen zwei Stühle setzen" which
>literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
>indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>
>Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
>saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
>saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
>
>Is this as well known in England as it is in Germany? I certainly haven't
>heard it before - but then, as I've mentioned before, I've been out of the
>country for 23 years.
>
>If I use this translation of the saying, will the meaning be immediately
>understood by the reader?
>
>I'd also really like to know how well known the saying is in America, as I
>believe the poems are to be sent to an American.
>
>Again, many thanks in advance to those who "come to the rescue" :-)
>
>
>Nathan
The word "stools" sounds suspiciously like it wants "bar" as
an adjective. I have neither heard nor read the phrase "fall
between two stools" but I did that once or twice in my
wayward youth.
The idea of trying for two possible goals and missing both
by way of fuzzy-headedness is a logical possibility. Other
expressions, like "sitting on the fence" or "horns of a
dilemma," don't quite seem right.
It is an expression that needs wider use!
JBG, Pa, USA
enochan
AMAR GABRIEL <gma...@worldonline.fr> wrote in message
news:8dks12$bgs$1...@vega.worldonline.fr...
>
[snip]
>
> I just found it funny that the equivalent expression in French is "avoir
le
> cul entre deux chaises", literally: "to have one's arse between two
chairs".
> It sounds rather less formal but it is used very often, and not always in
> casual contexts...
> Gabriel
>
>
There are variants:
"Between two stools the ass (or the tail) goes to ground."
"Between two stools the arse falls to the ground."
"Well done, Lazarillo; between two stools they say a certain part of a man
comes to the ground." (R. Jephson, Two Strings to your Bow, 1791)
enochan
enochan
Nathan Firby <Nathan.Firby@*no-spam*SoftXEL.com> wrote in message
news:8dkd52$s22$1...@news.online.de...
> which literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means
> to be indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>
>
> If I use this translation of the saying, will the meaning be
> immediately understood by the reader?
>
The Collins Cobuild English Dictionary (1995) says:
If someone has fallen betwen two stalls, they were unable to decide which of
two courses of action to take and as a result they have not done either of
them successfully; used mainly in British English.
So, "to sit between two stools" may stand for "to be unable to decide which
of two courses of action to take" or "indecisive."
>
> I'd also really like to know how well known the saying is in America,
> as I believe the poems are to be sent to an American.
>
A Dictionary of American Proverbs (1992) gives:
Between two stools we come to the ground. Rec[orded] Dist[ribution]: U.S.,
Can[ada]. 1st cit[ation]: ca1390 Gower, "Confessio Amantis"; US 1729
Alexander in "Letters and Papers of Cadwallader Colden" ....
Although it is "used mainly in British English," Americans can get it.
enochan
enochan
"two stalls" reads "two stools."
>
> The Collins Cobuild English Dictionary (1995) says:
>
> If someone has fallen betwen two stalls, they were unable to decide which
of
> two courses of action to take and as a result they have not done either of
> them successfully; used mainly in British English.
>
enochan
Tinka
> There's a saying in German, "sich zwischen zwei Stühle setzen" which
> literally translates as "to sit between two chairs" and means to be
> indecisive - or torn between two possibilities.
>
> Whilst translating a poem for a friend, I realised that this well-known
> saying actually exists in English. According to the Oxford Dictionary the
> saying is "to fall/to have fallen between two stools".
And I can supply you all with the Danish expression: "at saette sig mellem to
stole" .. note the similiarities between "stool(s)" and "stol(e)"? My British
professor once explained that the two words originated from the same Old Norse
word (and I suspect a Germanic origin too). Perhaps the expression is as old as
that too..?? Anybody got OED handy?
--
Tinka
----------
One of the advantages of being
disorderly is that one is constantly
making exciting discoveries.
--A.A. Milne
Nathan Firby
Apologies for 'answering' my own mail here, but it's easier than answering
each one of you individually. (How does one make a sheepish grin using
colons, hyphens and parenthesis?)
I've read many English novels yet I've never (consciously) come across this
saying. (I particularly like the Winston Churchill variation ;-).
The Oxford Dictionary says that "to fall between two stools" means "to fail
from vacillation between two courses"... so I was slightly wrong, in that
it's not simply being torn by indecision rather failing from being torn
between two courses.
The German saying, (according to everyone I've asked), appears to have the
former meaning which makes sense, considering the Germans say "to 'sit'
between two chairs". Sitting seems appropriate to waiting for an outcome,
whereas falling would give the impression of already having failed... though
it is also possible that the Germans I am asking are simply using it
incorrectly :-)
Drat - I've just realised that I've basically repeated what Enochan said!
Tinka: "Stool" must certainly have the same origins as the German "Stuhl"
and the Danish "Stole", though I'm not sure if the Danish word means "stool"
or "chair". "Hocker" or "Schemel" are the German words for "stool" - unless
one is talking about (yuch) faeces, in which case "stool" means "Stuhl". (I
need that sheepish grin again!)
Roy: I'm not sure that the football example is actually correct. They were
chasing both league and cup honours and failed in both, rather than deciding
whether to chase one or the other and thus failing.
Katy: I'm not sure that your example is valid either - as the individual
failed to receive financial help as a result of the failure of both sources
rather than his own.
Molly: Your example doesn't actually have anything to do with indecisiveness
(or should I use "indecision"?), rather a matter of circumstance.
The inclusion of the word "arse" seems to me to add a flavour of
foolishness - which is certainly apt!
JBG's comments makes me think it wise to add a footnote to this particular
line of the verse.
Many thanks to all of you who took the time to give your tuppenny worth!
All the best,
Nathan