quotation punctuation
Trevor & Rachael
this newsgroup...
What I still get muddled with is the placement of punctuation marks in
relation to quotation marks. For example:
Why did he say, "I'm not coming."?
("I'm not coming" is a statement hence the fullstop, whole sentence is a
question hence the question mark.)
No, what he said was, "I've not been asked.".
(Are both fullstops required here?)
There are many other combinations (a question within a statement for
example) - any comments gratefully appreciated.
Trevor.
Ben Bullock
Trevor & Rachael <coul...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B613C6E2.43F4%coul...@ntlworld.com...
I strongly recommend a book called "The Penguin Guide to Punctuation" by
R.L. Trask. It's cheap, and it will resolve your confusion completely.
Alan Jones
"Ben Bullock" <haya...@syd.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:8soh4v$f74$1...@nwms2.odn.ne.jp...
punctuation - the only book of its kind, I think..
To answer your questions (as an interim solution until you go out and buy
your copy of Trask), the use of both a full stop and a question mark, or of
two full stops, as in your examples, is incorrect. The sentences should run:
Why did he say, "I'm not coming"?
No, what he said was "I've not been asked".
An American would put the full stop (he'd call it a "period") inside the
quotation marks in the latter sentence.
Here's another example:
He was always asking, "Why haven't I been invited?" (question within
statement)
The commas you place before the speech are now often omitted or, in print,
replaced by colons. The comma after "was" in your second sentence is
incorrect, I think, even within the traditional rules, which apply only when
the verb is "said" or the equivalent. Any doubt is instantly resolved if you
choose to omit all such commas!
Alan Jones
Bob Cunningham
said:
>"Ben Bullock" <haya...@syd.odn.ne.jp> wrote in message
>news:8soh4v$f74$1...@nwms2.odn.ne.jp...
>> I strongly recommend a book called "The Penguin Guide to Punctuation" by
>> R.L. Trask. It's cheap, and it will resolve your confusion completely.
>Yes, Trask's book is a clear and reliable guide to current conventions of
>punctuation - the only book of its kind, I think..
Over the years I've seen references to something called "Hart's
Rules", references that gave me the impression it might be a highly
regarded authority in the UK. Could you comment on its merits as
compared to the Penguin book?
I see, by the way, that Amazon has the following item:
Hart's Rules for Compositors and Readers at the University
Press, Oxford
by Horace Hart. Hardcover (November 1983)
Out Of Stock
Burchfield, in _The New Fowler's Modern English Usage_, under
'quotation marks', says:
What follows is a slightly adapted version of the OUP
house style as set out in _Hart's Rules_.
[ . . . ]
> No, what he said was "I've not been asked".
>An American would put the full stop (he'd call it a "period") inside the
>quotation marks in the latter sentence.
This American wouldn't necessarily put it inside. I greatly admire
the sensible UK punctuation conventions, and I've followed them in
recent years, since I retired and am no longer controlled by a
publications department.
However, the example question is not a good example of your point. I
think that strict observance of the UK rules might put the full stop
inside. This is because "I've not been asked" is a complete sentence,
so a full stop is part of what's being quoted.
It's a matter of judgement, though. The rule, according to I.C.B.
Dear's _Oxford English_, is that the full stop goes inside or outside
depending upon whether the quotation or the introducing sentence has
"greater weight".
An example given in _Oxford English_ is:
Over the entrance to the temple at Delphi were written the
words 'Know thyself'.
Here the overall sentence has greater weight, so the full stop goes
outside. An example in which it goes inside would be:
Galbraith said of the trickle-down theory, "If you feed the
horse enough oats, there'll always be something in the road
for the sparrows."
Sometimes a comma goes inside the quotes because it's acting as a
surrogate full stop, as in:
'That is nonsense,' he said.
But:
'That', he said, 'is nonsense.'
And:
'That, my dear fellow,' he said, 'is nonsense.'
In the last example, the comma before the quote is part of the
sentence that is being quoted, because 'my dear fellow' is a
parenthetical remark in that sentence. In the previous example the
statement that's being quoted is 'That is nonsense', so the comma goes
outside.
The last three examples are from _Oxford English_. Burchfield gives
examples that agree with all that it says on the subject of
punctuation with quotes in _Oxford English_. Burchfield's is the much
more extensive of the two discussions.
Alan Jones
"Bob Cunningham" <spa...@alt-usage-english.org> wrote in message
news:ilm0vs4fn8rv03pe8...@4ax.com...
Yes - and I'm happy to accept that your judgment is at least as reliable as
mine, and more discriminatingly subtle!
Trask's book is about punctuation alone; "Hart's" also deals with preferred
spellings, some aspects of typography, abbreviations - all kinds of matter on
which readers and compositors (if they any longer exist) may need a quick
ruling. They are the OUP's house rules, and not all publishers or printers
adhere to them: Cambridge UP, perhaps out of sheer cussedness, sometimes
takes the non-Oxonian line (e.g. judgment/judgement). Trask's book is much
more recent, and written in a more accessible style with special regard to
the needs of students (he teaches at the University of Sussex).
Of older punctuation manuals, I used to think G.H.Vallins good, but his
rulings now seem outdated. Eric Partridge was always too eccentric to be
recommended to students. Burchfield's revision of Fowler - covering many
matters besides punctuation - is alertly observant and so well-informed that
it's rash to question his judgment (I have to say that anyway, because he
tutored me - it's true enough, though.)
Alan Jones
>
Bob Cunningham
said:
[ . . . ]
>Trask's book is about punctuation alone; "Hart's" also deals with preferred
>spellings, some aspects of typography, abbreviations - all kinds of matter on
>which readers and compositors (if they any longer exist) may need a quick
>ruling. They are the OUP's house rules, and not all publishers or printers
>adhere to them: Cambridge UP, perhaps out of sheer cussedness, sometimes
>takes the non-Oxonian line (e.g. judgment/judgement).
Where are the Cambridge rules stated? Do they have anything
comparable to Hart's Rules?
Alan Jones
notorious instance of nonconformity is the Cambridge History of English
Literature, where one finds "queen Elizabeth" and "king James".
Alan Jones
Alan Jones