Security Update 2005-004
Bella Jones
is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
following components:
iSync
For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
--
bellajonez at yahoo dot co dot uk
Jim
> Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> following components:
>
> iSync
>
> For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
>
>
> Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
Fixes that vuln (in mRouter) I told you about earlier in the year, where
running a very small program as a normal user gave you a root shell.
Welcome back BTW :-)
Jim
--
Find me at http://www.ursaminorbeta.co.uk AIM/iChatAV: JCAndrew2
"We deal in the moral equivalent of black holes, where the normal
laws of right and wrong break down; beyond those metaphysical
event horizons there exist ... special circumstances" - Use Of Weapons
Bella Jones
> Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> > is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> > following components:
> >
> > iSync
> >
> > For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> > http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
> >
> >
> > Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
>
> Fixes that vuln (in mRouter) I told you about earlier in the year, where
> running a very small program as a normal user gave you a root shell.
For the record, while we're on updates etc, I noticed a slight speeding
up after 10.3.9, but that all went to hell a few hours later, as usual.
> Welcome back BTW :-)
Why thank you. Are we going to see The Infamous Birthday Card on your
server anytime soon? ;-)
Jim
I've been ill recently but I intend to email everyone involved to get their
permission - then yes.
Jim
--
Find me at http://www.ursaMinorBeta.co.uk
"Brace yourself, this might make your eyes water."
PeterD
> I've been ill recently
You shoulda said. We'd have beamed happy healing rainbow fairies at you.
Hope you're both all better now, and the vet's bill wasn't too much.
--
Pd
Jim
Thank you, you're too..er...kind.
I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
Roger Merriman
> Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> following components:
>
> iSync
>
> For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
>
>
> Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
hey welcome back, missy! any luck with the pointy boots?
gah i have about a trillion unsaved open files, will have to save them
meh!
roger
Roger Merriman
> In article <1gvb9ai.ritkmw7jzsp1N%pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid>, PeterD wrote:
> > Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I've been ill recently
> >
> > You shoulda said. We'd have beamed happy healing rainbow fairies at you.
> > Hope you're both all better now, and the vet's bill wasn't too much.
> >
>
> Thank you, you're too..er...kind.
>
> I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
>
> Jim
0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
roger
Jim
It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
Bella Jones
> Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> > is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> > following components:
> >
> > iSync
> >
> > For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> > http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
> >
> >
> > Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
>
> hey welcome back, missy! any luck with the pointy boots?
Hey, thanks. They are at the manufacturer's now. The whole thing rests
on whether me having had them re-soled constitutes violation of the blah
blah and them therefore not being liable to fix them. We shall see...
> gah i have about a trillion unsaved open files, will have to save them
> meh!
I am so anal, I always close everything, and often quit as well.
MenuMeters has made me an obsessive!
Bella Jones
> In article <1gvbd3i.ra8h4m1ls5lbkN%NE...@wodger.demon.co.uk>, Roger
Merriman wrote:
> > Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <1gvb9ai.ritkmw7jzsp1N%pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid>, PeterD wrote:
> >> > Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I've been ill recently
> >> >
> >> > You shoulda said. We'd have beamed happy healing rainbow fairies at you.
> >> > Hope you're both all better now, and the vet's bill wasn't too much.
> >> >
> >> Thank you, you're too..er...kind.
> >>
> >> I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
> >>
> >> Jim
> >
> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
>
> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
Ouch mate! I would have hung up a Special Crystal for you, if I'd known.
But I trust you haven't been watching too much Vanessa Feltz late at
night, and taken action where it really should not be taken. <runs>
PeterD
> Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
Those haemorrhoids are a pain in the arse, eh.
--
Pd
Jim
<fervant nod>
Jim
>> >> I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
>> >>
>> >> Jim
>> >
>> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
>>
>> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
>
> Ouch mate! I would have hung up a Special Crystal for you, if I'd known.
>
> But I trust you haven't been watching too much Vanessa Feltz late at
> night, and taken action where it really should not be taken. <runs>
>
Thankfully I have _no_ idea what you're talking about. Please don't
enlighten me.
Woody
says...
What has menumeters done to do that? Can't say I quit that much although
I don't have unsaved files (unlike sab who allways has unopened files
and I have to guess whether she wants them or not when I restart big
shiney!)
--
Woody
Bella Jones
Because I can see if Something Big is happening when the little bar is
going up and down. It also means I can try and catch the machine at it
when one of the Mystery Processes is happening. I've convinced it keeps
indexing when it thinks I'm not looking.
Bella Jones
> In article <1gvbds4.1mxod5z1tvh2y6N%m...@privacy.net>, Bella Jones wrote:
> >> >> I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Jim
> >> >
> >> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
> >>
> >> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
> >
> > Ouch mate! I would have hung up a Special Crystal for you, if I'd known.
> >
> > But I trust you haven't been watching too much Vanessa Feltz late at
> > night, and taken action where it really should not be taken. <runs>
> >
>
> Thankfully I have _no_ idea what you're talking about. Please don't
> enlighten me.
Oh go on.
<http://www.five.tv/home/frameset/?content=11712466&>
Oddly, the blurb does not refer to the especially wince-making procedure
I was referring to above.
Noses
> Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
http://members.cox.net/pfiore7/nerd.jpg
Might have positive side effects.
Noses.
Roger Merriman
> Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1gvbds4.1mxod5z1tvh2y6N%m...@privacy.net>, Bella Jones wrote:
snips
> > > But I trust you haven't been watching too much Vanessa Feltz late at
> > > night, and taken action where it really should not be taken. <runs>
> > >
> >
> > Thankfully I have _no_ idea what you're talking about. Please don't
> > enlighten me.
>
> Oh go on.
> <http://www.five.tv/home/frameset/?content=11712466&>
> Oddly, the blurb does not refer to the especially wince-making procedure
> I was referring to above.
cosmetic surgry? mmmm extra lenth?
roger
Roger Merriman
> Roger Merriman <NE...@wodger.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> > > is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> > > following components:
> > >
> > > iSync
> > >
> > > For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> > > http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
> > >
> > >
> > > Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
> >
> > hey welcome back, missy! any luck with the pointy boots?
>
> Hey, thanks. They are at the manufacturer's now. The whole thing rests
> on whether me having had them re-soled constitutes violation of the blah
> blah and them therefore not being liable to fix them. We shall see...
>
ahh well best of luck, sure richard would miss being abile to touch your
boo.. ;-)
> > gah i have about a trillion unsaved open files, will have to save them
> > meh!
>
> I am so anal, I always close everything, and often quit as well.
> MenuMeters has made me an obsessive!
now had you had said that few weeks back that would of been on topic
there, not here but there heh!
roger
Roger Merriman
> Woody <use...@alienrat.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <1gvbdru.641bwn1kj73y8N%m...@privacy.net>, m...@privacy.net
> > says...
snips
> > > I am so anal, I always close everything, and often quit as well.
> > > MenuMeters has made me an obsessive!
> >
> > What has menumeters done to do that? Can't say I quit that much although
> > I don't have unsaved files (unlike sab who allways has unopened files
> > and I have to guess whether she wants them or not when I restart big
> > shiney!)
>
> Because I can see if Something Big is happening when the little bar is
> going up and down. It also means I can try and catch the machine at it
> when one of the Mystery Processes is happening. I've convinced it keeps
> indexing when it thinks I'm not looking.
ah the mystery process. of course! the obvous reasons ;-)
roger
Roger Merriman
> In article <1gvbd3i.ra8h4m1ls5lbkN%NE...@wodger.demon.co.uk>, Roger
Merriman wrote:
> > Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <1gvb9ai.ritkmw7jzsp1N%pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid>, PeterD wrote:
> >> > Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I've been ill recently
> >> >
> >> > You shoulda said. We'd have beamed happy healing rainbow fairies at you.
> >> > Hope you're both all better now, and the vet's bill wasn't too much.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Thank you, you're too..er...kind.
> >>
> >> I _was_ on pain meds for a short time so I nearly got the rainbows :-)
> >>
> >> Jim
> >
> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
> >
>
> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
>
> Jim
oooh ow!
roger
Sara Kirk
<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> following components:
>
> iSync
>
> For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
> http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
>
>
> Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
Oo - 'ello! Nice to see you again.
--
Sara
Hugh Browton
(in article <d45dud$3br$2...@news.bnc.net>):
> http://members.cox.net/pfiore7/nerd.jpg
<laugh>!
--
regards
hugh
hugh at clarity point uk point co
(by the sea) (using Hogwasher)
Bella Jones
And girth. I could go into a long description but it would be off-topic
as well as disgusting!
Bella Jones
The siren call of ucsm became all too much. Lurking just wasn't enough.
;-)
Bob Wardrope
<snip>
>
>
> And girth. I could go into a long description but it would be off-topic
> as well as disgusting!
>
3S :-)
Bob W
Bella Jones
Expand, please.
[Recycled that one, sorry!]
Roger Merriman
Roger Merriman
> Bob Wardrope <newsby...@blueyonder.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Bella Jones wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >
> > >
> > > And girth. I could go into a long description but it would be off-topic
> > > as well as disgusting!
> > >
> >
> > 3S :-)
>
> Expand, please.
>
LOL! you say some of mine are bad ;-)
>
> [Recycled that one, sorry!]
roger
Huge's Powermac G3 Beige
use I sync as don't have bluetooth yet, so would I need to download it
anyway???
On 20/4/05 8:23 am, in article 1gvb5vl.5ipmif1hnzcviN%m...@privacy.net,
"Bella Jones" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> Jim <j...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> Bella Jones <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
>>> is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
>>> following components:
>>>
>>> iSync
>>>
>>> For detailed information on this Update, please visit this website:
>>> http://www.info.apple.com/kbnum/n61798
>>>
>>>
>>> Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
>>
>> Fixes that vuln (in mRouter) I told you about earlier in the year, where
>> running a very small program as a normal user gave you a root shell.
>
> For the record, while we're on updates etc, I noticed a slight speeding
> up after 10.3.9, but that all went to hell a few hours later, as usual.
>
>> Welcome back BTW :-)
>
> Why thank you. Are we going to see The Infamous Birthday Card on your
> server anytime soon? ;-)
Chris Ridd
"Huge's Powermac G3 Beige" <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Does a g3 mini tower running os x 10.3.8 require security patches. I don't
If Software Update thinks you need to download it, then yes. I'm sure a
security update came out post-10.3.8.
> use I sync as don't have bluetooth yet, so would I need to download it
> anyway???
I'm not sure what Bluetooth has got to do with it; the update only patches
/System/Library/SyncServices/SymbianConduit.bundle.
It is also quite a small update so there's really no reason not to install
it.
And please don't top post.
Cheers,
Chris
Bob Wardrope
> Bob Wardrope <newsby...@blueyonder.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>Bella Jones wrote:
>><snip>
>>
>>>
>>>And girth. I could go into a long description but it would be off-topic
>>>as well as disgusting!
>>>
>>
>>3S :-)
>
>
> Expand, please.
>
>
>
> [Recycled that one, sorry!]
>
>
Apology accepted :-)
Bob W
Huge's Powermac G3 Beige
On 20/4/05 7:02 pm, in article BE8C57D7.AD796%chri...@mac.com, "Chris
Ridd" <chri...@mac.com> wrote:
Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
Huge
Roger Merriman
> Bella Jones wrote:
> > Bob Wardrope <newsby...@blueyonder.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Bella Jones wrote:
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>And girth. I could go into a long description but it would be off-topic
> >>>as well as disgusting!
> >>>
snips
> > Expand, please.
> >
> >
> Split, Stuff and Stitch.
> >
snips
>
> Bob W
i would be suprised if after that, that there was much if any
rasing.....
roger
PeterD
> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
No, but you can set the brain-finger interface to not top-post.
And remember, not top-posting is only half the battle. The other half is
snipping all the stuff that isn't relevant, and inserting your comments
after the appropriate quotes.
--
Pd
Chris Ridd
"Huge's Powermac G3 Beige" <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
I've always just used Software Update to keep up to date, and it has always
worked OK for me.
> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
It always sticks the cursor in at the top, so I just scroll down, and type
responses where appropriate and snip where appropriate. It works OK, though
to be honest the whole quoting/snipping/etc malarkey seems quite a primitive
way of working (in all mail/news apps). There's got to be a better way than
this, surely?
Cheers,
Chris
Noses
> > http://members.cox.net/pfiore7/nerd.jpg
> <laugh>!
You wouldn't laugh with uptimes around 500 days...
Noses.
Tim Streater
Huge's Powermac G3 Beige <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> On 20/4/05 7:02 pm, in article BE8C57D7.AD796%chri...@mac.com, "Chris
> Ridd" <chri...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > On 20/4/05 6:56 pm, in article BE8C5665.1926%hugem...@btopenworld.com,
> > "Huge's Powermac G3 Beige" <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Does a g3 mini tower running os x 10.3.8 require security patches. I don't
> >
> > If Software Update thinks you need to download it, then yes. I'm sure a
> > security update came out post-10.3.8.
> >
> >> use I sync as don't have bluetooth yet, so would I need to download it
> >> anyway???
> >
> > I'm not sure what Bluetooth has got to do with it; the update only patches
> > /System/Library/SyncServices/SymbianConduit.bundle.
> >
> > It is also quite a small update so there's really no reason not to install
> > it.
> >
> > And please don't top post.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
Top post if you feel like it, Huge. Pay no attention to the
self-appointed net.police.
-- tim
D.M. Procida
> > Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
> > Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
>
> Top post if you feel like it, Huge. Pay no attention to the
> self-appointed net.police.
No, don't. Tim is only saying that because he's in a lot of trouble and
wants to bring someone down with him, feeling in his twisted way that it
will somehow be better for him like that. As if! In fact, we're even
more annoyed with Tim for trying that on.
Daniele
--
Apple Juice Ltd
Chapter Arts Centre
Market Road www.apple-juice.co.uk
Cardiff CF5 1QE 029 2019 0140
Liz Gerard
> On 20/4/05 7:16 pm, in article "Huge's Powermac G3 Beige"
> <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
>
> It always sticks the cursor in at the top, so I just scroll down, and
> type responses where appropriate and snip where appropriate.
Or use Thunderbird - it automatically starts the reply after the quoted
text.
> though to be honest the whole quoting/snipping/etc malarkey
> seems quite a primitive way of working (in all mail/news apps).
> There's got to be a better way than this, surely?
No, it's netiquette, it's equivalent to not picking one's nose in public!
Liz
gutts
> Security Update 2005-004 delivers a number of security enhancements and
> is recommended for all Macintosh users. This update includes the
> following components:
strangely, this update hasn't shown up on my machine(s). Dunno why
but...
Tim Auton
>In article <BE8C5B30.192C%hugem...@btopenworld.com>,
> Huge's Powermac G3 Beige <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>> Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
>> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
>
>Top post if you feel like it, Huge. Pay no attention to the
>self-appointed net.police.
Post any way you like. But difficult-to-read messages (top-posting,
broken shift-key etc.) tend to get skipped. At least some of those who
can't be bothered to decipher your message will be people who could
help with a problem or have something interesting to say. Some of them
(like me) are just self-righteous tits.
Tim
--
Complex in, complex process, complex out.
TonyG
gutta...@gmail.com (gutts) wrote:
> strangely, this update hasn't shown up on my machine(s). Dunno why
but...
Nor on mine - it appears you need to be using iSync.
Tony
gutts
I am, I do. Weird.
Only until May Day or thereabouts though, when I expect to have Tiger
in.
Flavio Matani
> > >
> > > Darn. And I did a restart only yesterday. :-)
> >
> > Oo - 'ello! Nice to see you again.
>
> The siren call of ucsm became all too much. Lurking just wasn't enough.
... :)
--
flavio matani
guitar tuition
homepage.mac.com/flavio_matani/guitar/
www.livejournal.com/users/flavius_m/
Flavio Matani
> On 20/4/05 7:16 pm, in article BE8C5B30.192C%hugem...@btopenworld.com,
> "Huge's Powermac G3 Beige" <hugem...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
>
> I've always just used Software Update to keep up to date, and it has always
> worked OK for me.
Hm, I'm a bit wary -not from personal experience, but from seeing other
peeps' postings, so I often download the Combo update and wait a couple
of days before applying...
Flavio Matani
> > > But I trust you haven't been watching too much Vanessa Feltz late at
> > > night, and taken action where it really should not be taken. <runs>
> > >
> >
> > Thankfully I have _no_ idea what you're talking about. Please don't
> > enlighten me.
>
> Oh go on.
> <http://www.five.tv/home/frameset/?content=11712466&>
> Oddly, the blurb does not refer to the especially wince-making procedure
> I was referring to above.
Yeaourgh....
Flavio Matani
> >
> > And please don't top post.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Chris
> >
> Sorry did not know that... Just downloading the 10.3.9 update now.
> Can I set entourage 2004 to not top post?
Yes, but only by hand, if I remember correctly
Tim Streater
Tim Auton <tim....@uton.groupSexWithoutTheY> wrote:
Agreed. It's when the response is "and please don't top post", without
explanation, as if the poor poster has farted in the lift, that I am
inclined to think, "what a w-anchor".
I also laugh at responses along the lines of "You're saying X? But in
post 123456 on such-and-such date you said X-bar". Well, shock, horror!
-- tim
PeterD
> I also laugh at responses along the lines of "You're saying X? But in
> post 123456 on such-and-such date you said X-bar". Well, shock, horror!
Why? Surely consistency is the first prerequisite of logic.
Alternatively, if someone's changed their mind about something,
presumably some significant piece of information or event has come to
light, that would be worth relating.
Or am I missing your point entirely?
--
Pd
Sak Wathanasin
pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid (PeterD) wrote:
> Or am I missing your point entirely?
That's why we have Usenet.
--
Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
http://www.network-analysis.ltd.uk
Tim Streater
pd....@dsl.pipex.invalid (PeterD) wrote:
> Tim Streater <tim.st...@dante.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > I also laugh at responses along the lines of "You're saying X? But in
> > post 123456 on such-and-such date you said X-bar". Well, shock, horror!
>
> Why? Surely consistency is the first prerequisite of logic.
:-)
> Alternatively, if someone's changed their mind about something,
> presumably some significant piece of information or event has come to
> light, that would be worth relating.
That's OK when it happens and is related in that manner. I am referring
to occasions when the response is rather more rabid.
> Or am I missing your point entirely?
My point, for what it's worth, is that debate via this medium is very
often little better than discussions down the pub (not that I ever have
any such). Personally I find it difficult to articulate all that I want
to say in a coherent manner when it has to be via a written medium such
as this. What I might term a good post usually takes me hours to cobble
together. Which is why my response to electronic dumpster divers [1]
will be "So sue me!".
[1] with apologies for the Americanism - not sure if we have an
equivalent.
-- tim
zoara
> Roger Merriman wrote:
[Jim's illness]
> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
> >
>
> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
Er.....
-z-
--
My lozenge is a full earthy herbal lozenge incorporating a miscellanea
of weeds known for advancing sexual longing and performance, causing
an increase in sexual craving, a betterment in your volume and
execution, besides as increased energy and joy during sexual activeness.
Jim
> Jim <J...@magrathea.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> [Jim's illness]
>
>> > 0ooh sounds unpleasent to say the least....
>> >
>>
>> It was. Think 'painfully swollen vein'.
>
> Er.....
>
It was a right pain in the arse. Literally.
Jim
--
Find me at http://www.ursaMinorBeta.co.uk
"Brace yourself, this might make your eyes water."
zoara
> Which is why my response to electronic dumpster divers [1]
> will be "So sue me!".
>
> [1] with apologies for the Americanism - not sure if we have an
> equivalent.
Bin burglars?
-zoara-
PeterD
> Personally I find it difficult to articulate all that I want to say in a
> coherent manner when it has to be via a written medium such as this.
Oaky, but that's not what you said last month.
--
Pd
Hugh Browton
(in article <d46ans$le8$1...@news.bnc.net>):
> http://members.cox.net/pfiore7/nerd.jpg
I wasn't laughing at his sex to uptime ratio, but his cheerfulness in the
face of adversity!
--
regards
hugh
hugh at clarity point uk point co
(by the sea) (using Hogwasher)