Neither of my "best" machines will take W11

Philip Herlihy

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Jun 25, 2021, 3:41:53 PM6/25/21

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I watched the presentation, and thought much of it looked like pleasing tweaks
- until I saw the bill.

Neither of my workaday machines can be upgraded. A really nice (expensive) XPS
laptop is too old to have "secure boot", and on my Vostro 470 the i7-3770 isn't
a supported processor.

Now, given how many W7 machines are still out there, and given how much
hardware there must be that won't be upgradeable to W11, how many
insecure/hackable machines are there going to be out there in 5+ years?

--

Phil, London

Philip Herlihy

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Jun 25, 2021, 3:43:19 PM6/25/21

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In article <MPG.3b4041d81...@news.eternal-september.org>,
thiswillb...@you.com says...

You can check compatibility using the "PC Health Check" utility on this page:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/windows-11#pchealthcheck

Direct download:
https://aka.ms/GetPCHealthCheckApp

--

Phil, London

SH

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Jun 25, 2021, 4:06:06 PM6/25/21

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Hmmm.... I built my new PC in January of this year using a Z390 mobo and
10th gen Intel CPU......

running the PC health check app gives me:

This PC can't run Windows 11

TPM 2.0 is a requirement for running Windows 11.

We recommend that you check if TPM 2.0 is enabled.

Theo

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Jun 25, 2021, 4:21:46 PM6/25/21

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SH <i.lov...@spam.com> wrote:
> Hmmm.... I built my new PC in January of this year using a Z390 mobo and
> 10th gen Intel CPU......
>
> running the PC health check app gives me:
>
> This PC can't run Windows 11
>
> TPM 2.0 is a requirement for running Windows 11.
>
> We recommend that you check if TPM 2.0 is enabled.

Some mobos have a firmware TPM or fTPM - perhaps you can enable that in
BIOS?

I think the TPM requirement is going to bite a lot of people - apparently
what tiny stocks of TPM modules there were were flying off the shelves
yesterday. Supposedly TPM has been a requirement for OEM windows machines
since 2016, but that doesn't cover machines assembled by third parties, and
I don't know the situation with laptops (where you can't simply plug in a
TPM module to a motherboard header).

Even if there is a TPM, if it's disabled in BIOS it's going to make it
tricky for a lot of people. BIOSes/UEFIs often have terrible UIs and a
setting like this is likely buried very deep.

Theo

Theo

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Jun 25, 2021, 5:41:56 PM6/25/21

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Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Even if there is a TPM, if it's disabled in BIOS it's going to make it
> tricky for a lot of people. BIOSes/UEFIs often have terrible UIs and a
> setting like this is likely buried very deep.

Lots of fun and some info here:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/heres-what-youll-need-to-upgrade-to-windows-11/

Andy

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Jun 26, 2021, 6:09:35 AM6/26/21

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Interesting, I got the "you've not got a secure boot" from the pc health
check from MS, but your article says:

"The requirement for UEFI seems likely to be just what it says on the
tin—no more legacy BIOS installs for anyone!—but there might be a slight
odor of weasel in the phrasing "Secure Boot capability." We won't know
for sure until Windows 11 Insider images start becoming available, but
we suspect that "capability" is likely an important word. Secure Boot
itself may not be mandatory"

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Jun 27, 2021, 6:30:20 PM6/27/21

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On 27/06/2021 13:46, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> In article <ijr6h6...@mid.individual.net>, em...@here.invalid says...

>> I used a purchase of a Windows 10 tablet as an excuse to align myself
>>

>> That has been a failure. I hardly use it, much preferring an iPad.
>
> Why's the iPad better for you?
>

The applications that Windows 10 made available for touch use (universal
apps) were to me lacking compared to their desktop equivalents, and I
found myself running the desktop app versions (adobe reader, office
2013) on it, with effectively one hand tied behind my back, not having a
mouse to click. Of course, I could add one and a keyboard and turn it
into a laptop ... erm, got many of those ...

On the iPad, my reading was better supported straight off, and touch
gestures are just standard Apple, just like my phone. I don't miss a
mouse or a keyboard, as those apps only have to support the the Apple
touch UI. Initially thinking that it wouldn't do for typing, I bought a
keyboard for the iPad. Hardly use that. (Bloomin' Amazon overclicking....).

If Microsoft could have bravely launched a true tablet OS, without
muddying it up with desktop mode, that could have encouraged developers
to take the interface seriously, moving on from Windows Mobile perhaps.

I was a Windows Mobile 6.5 stylus using user who one day bought an iPod
Touch and an iPhone was naturally next.

Currently I'm WFH using MS Teams, and idly wondering if I can use this
tablet as a remote whiteboard to my Teams session open on works provided
laptop. But too much other things to worry about at the moment.

--
Adrian C

Jeff Gaines

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Jun 28, 2021, 3:51:57 AM6/28/21

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On 27/06/2021 in message <ijscfr...@mid.individual.net> Adrian

Caspersz wrote:

>If Microsoft could have bravely launched a true tablet OS, without
>muddying it up with desktop mode, that could have encouraged developers to
>take the interface seriously, moving on from Windows Mobile perhaps.

Hear, hear. Android and IOS were designed for touch screens from the start
and they work (and scale) well. I have a couple of tablets with Windows 10
and they just don't hack it in terms of usability or scaling.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
I take full responsibility for what happened - that is why the person that
was responsible went immediately.
(Gordon Brown, April 2009)

Philip Herlihy

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Jun 28, 2021, 6:00:35 AM6/28/21

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In article <sba6ij$1805$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com
says...

Well, I've seen the app updated once already - the first time I ran it just
said "The computer says NO" but the next time it indicated why it had failed.
Early days yet?

--

Phil, London

Philip Herlihy

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Jun 28, 2021, 6:02:36 AM6/28/21

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In article <ijscfr...@mid.individual.net>, em...@here.invalid says...

Thanks - that's useful to understand. I've never done more than fumble with
any i-thing for more than a minute or so, and I have enough trouble keeping up
with the Windows world to want to take on a new context!

--

Phil, London

David

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Jun 28, 2021, 6:28:08 AM6/28/21

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Posted a seperate thread, but:
"Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-6600U CPU @ 2.60GHz 2.80 GHz"
is allegedly not supported.
From the number I assume it is 6th generation so 3 generations on from
your 3770.

Cheers

Dave R

--
Dell Latitude 7280 with Full HD and Thunderbolt (woo hoo)

Philip Herlihy

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Jun 28, 2021, 10:54:03 AM6/28/21

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In article <ijtmhl...@mid.individual.net>, wib...@btinternet.com says...

Ouch!

--

Phil, London

Andrew

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:28:16 AM6/28/21

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Just tried it again, and get the same message from the installer -

"This installation package is not supported by this processor type -
contact your product vendor".

WTF ??

Andrew

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Jun 28, 2021, 11:42:39 AM6/28/21

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Just noticed this on the Microsoft Win 11 FAQ's -

"I have a 32-bit Device. Can I upgrade to Windows 11?

Unfortunately, no. As per MS, since launching Windows 10 six years ago,
a lot of hardware innovation has happened in the PC space. For Windows
to move forward and take better advantage of the latest innovations, we
need to update the baseline system requirements for modern PCs."

So that's it, I will need a new PC. That means the issue of Firewire
support will be a problem. I still have a useful slide scanner that has
a Firewire interface and I am reluctant to pension it off.

Andy Burns

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Jun 28, 2021, 12:16:19 PM6/28/21

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Philip Herlihy wrote:

> Direct download:
> https://aka.ms/GetPCHealthCheckApp

The checker says my CPU doesn't meet the requirements, Kaby Lake i5-7200U

<https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/95451/intel-core-i7-7500u-processor-4m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html>

seems that 7th Gen and older won't be supported by Win11, so a CPU
launched 5 years ago in a machine launched 3 years ago is obsolete as
far as microsoft are concerned? Going to be a lot of pissed of people,
it runs Win10 just fine.

What 8th gen CPU features are they insisting on?

Theo

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Jun 28, 2021, 4:50:23 PM6/28/21

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The Phenom II is a 64 bit CPU, so there's no problems on that front.
I don't know if you can run the checker from 32-bit Windows though, maybe it
won't run unless you're already on 64 bit Win 10.

Does your motherboard have a TPM slot? You would likely need a hardware TPM
module as your CPU doesn't have a software TPM. (If there's no slot, maybe
someone will start making TPM PCIe cards - if that's possible)

I suspect the UEFI requirement may be an issue, although I would wait and
see if anyone comes up with a solution for this (maybe someone can do a
second stage bootloader or something).

> So that's it, I will need a new PC. That means the issue of Firewire
> support will be a problem. I still have a useful slide scanner that has
> a Firewire interface and I am reluctant to pension it off.

PCIe Firewire cards exist. Apple have a Thunderbolt Firewire dongle
suitable for laptops too (may need some adapters).

Theo

Theo

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Jun 28, 2021, 5:00:08 PM6/28/21

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Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> The checker says my CPU doesn't meet the requirements, Kaby Lake i5-7200U
>
> <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/95451/intel-core-i7-7500u-processor-4m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html>
>
> seems that 7th Gen and older won't be supported by Win11, so a CPU
> launched 5 years ago in a machine launched 3 years ago is obsolete as
> far as microsoft are concerned? Going to be a lot of pissed of people,
> it runs Win10 just fine.

I think the key word is 'supported'.

If I look at the list for the 20H2 version of W10:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-10-20h2-supported-intel-processors

there's nothing much older than Broadwell (5th generation, ix-5xxx) on
there. But we know W10 will run on much older PCs.

So I suspect 'supported' means that MS won't allow an OEM to sell PCs with
older processors, or maybe they won't answer your tech support questions or
give you a support contract. But home users get by without those things all
the time, and everything is fine.

Wait and see.

Also make sure your BIOS has UEFI boot turned on and has firmware TPM (AMD
fTPM, Intel iPPT) enabled, or buy a TPM module (when they are available
again).

Theo

Andy Burns

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Jun 29, 2021, 2:40:22 AM6/29/21

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Theo wrote:
> Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> The checker says my CPU doesn't meet the requirements, Kaby Lake i5-7200U
>>
>> <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/95451/intel-core-i7-7500u-processor-4m-cache-up-to-3-50-ghz.html>
>>
>> seems that 7th Gen and older won't be supported by Win11, so a CPU
>> launched 5 years ago in a machine launched 3 years ago is obsolete as
>> far as microsoft are concerned? Going to be a lot of pissed of people,
>> it runs Win10 just fine.
>
> I think the key word is 'supported'.
>
> If I look at the list for the 20H2 version of W10:
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/supported/windows-10-20h2-supported-intel-processors
>
> there's nothing much older than Broadwell (5th generation, ix-5xxx) on
> there. But we know W10 will run on much older PCs.

yes, I suppose I'll regard win11 as win10.1

> So I suspect 'supported' means that MS won't allow an OEM to sell PCs with
> older processors, or maybe they won't answer your tech support questions or
> give you a support contract. But home users get by without those things all
> the time, and everything is fine.
>
> Wait and see.

> Also make sure your BIOS has UEFI boot turned on and has firmware TPM (AMD
> fTPM, Intel iPPT) enabled, or

It's a laptop, meets all the other requirements (memory, cpu
speed/cores, UEFI, secure boot, TPM2.0, HD webcam, etc)

> buy a TPM module (when they are available
> again).

the only device *not* soldered to the motherboard is the SSD, even the
RAM is fixed.

Andrew

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Jun 29, 2021, 6:42:16 AM6/29/21

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On 28/06/2021 21:50, Theo wrote:
> Andrew <Andrew9...@mybtinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 28/06/2021 16:28, Andrew wrote:
>> Just noticed this on the Microsoft Win 11 FAQ's -
>>
>> "I have a 32-bit Device. Can I upgrade to Windows 11?
>>
>> Unfortunately, no. As per MS, since launching Windows 10 six years ago,
>> a lot of hardware innovation has happened in the PC space. For Windows
>> to move forward and take better advantage of the latest innovations, we
>> need to update the baseline system requirements for modern PCs."
>
> The Phenom II is a 64 bit CPU, so there's no problems on that front.
> I don't know if you can run the checker from 32-bit Windows though, maybe it
> won't run unless you're already on 64 bit Win 10.
>

It was a Novatech M/B upgrade bundle and I bought Win7 Pro OEM with the
same bundle but only installed a 32 bit image because I needed to keep
using an oldr version of Adobe Lightroom and Nikon Scanner code.

> Does your motherboard have a TPM slot? You would likely need a hardware TPM
> module as your CPU doesn't have a software TPM. (If there's no slot, maybe
> someone will start making TPM PCIe cards - if that's possible)
>

Gigabyte 880-GM-UDH2 circa 2011, so I don't think so.