Re: WiFi Advice Wanted

[David]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:10:58 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:

> We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to move
> in by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd like to
> hear any thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single
> floor space with WiFi that will support as well as possible and as
> future-proof as possible a gigabit Internet connection that is also yet
> to be chosen. I don't know whether I should be planning to hard wire AP
> discs to ceilings or scatter mesh devices (from Google, Linksys or
> TP-Link etc) around the various rooms. Thanks for any advice on what to
> do or to avoid.

If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
least one point in each room.

You then already have Gigabit speeds available and can connect a wireless
AP to your LAN connection to service local wireless devices.

Wired is (almost) always faster than wireless whatever headline speeds are
quoted.

If you are thinking of wiring in fixed APs in the ceiling I assume that
you are already thinking of running wires to them; do a proper job and
wire Ethernet to everywhere.

IMHO all the other strategies are to mitigate the lack of wired Ethernet.

Cheers


Dave R



--
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[Robin]

On 18/07/2017 14:07, David wrote:
<snip>

>
> If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
> least one point in each room.
>

+2

2 because I'd recommend at least 2 cables at each location. If the
budget is really tight, you can always run 2 cables but leave one
unterminated behind the wall plate. Or indeed, run the cables and leave
them all unterminated in "just in case" locations if you think you might
be staying long. I keep finding ifonlyid spots.

See eg http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Structured_wiring_system



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

[Chris Whelan]

David wrote:

[...]

> If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
> least one point in each room.
>
> You then already have Gigabit speeds available and can connect a wireless
> AP to your LAN connection to service local wireless devices.
>
> Wired is (almost) always faster than wireless whatever headline speeds are
> quoted.
>
> If you are thinking of wiring in fixed APs in the ceiling I assume that
> you are already thinking of running wires to them; do a proper job and
> wire Ethernet to everywhere.
>
> IMHO all the other strategies are to mitigate the lack of wired Ethernet.

+1.

Chris

--
Remove prejudice to reply.

[newshound]

On 7/18/2017 2:07 PM, David wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:10:58 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
>
>> We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to move
>> in by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd like to
>> hear any thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single
>> floor space with WiFi that will support as well as possible and as
>> future-proof as possible a gigabit Internet connection that is also yet
>> to be chosen. I don't know whether I should be planning to hard wire AP
>> discs to ceilings or scatter mesh devices (from Google, Linksys or
>> TP-Link etc) around the various rooms. Thanks for any advice on what to
>> do or to avoid.
>
> If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
> least one point in each room.
>
> You then already have Gigabit speeds available and can connect a wireless
> AP to your LAN connection to service local wireless devices.
>
> Wired is (almost) always faster than wireless whatever headline speeds are
> quoted.
>
> If you are thinking of wiring in fixed APs in the ceiling I assume that
> you are already thinking of running wires to them; do a proper job and
> wire Ethernet to everywhere.
>
> IMHO all the other strategies are to mitigate the lack of wired Ethernet.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave R
>
>
>

Agree about putting in Ethernet if you are rewiring, but in my
experience wifi is much better than it used to be. My house (originally
two stone cottages) is at least 100 years older than your flat. I need a
wireless extender because there is a stone wall two to three feet thick
between the two parts, although it picks up its signal wirelessly by
being in a near line of sight on the corridor joining them. With that
proviso, I have no problem getting coverage in the two parts, one of
which is three story.

[Henry Law]

On 18/07/17 13:10, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to move in
> by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd like to hear any
> thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single floor space

All the advice about Ethernet cable is spot on, IMO. Run as much Cat6
as you can afford (as others have said, you don't even need to terminate
it, to start with); assuming you're having a rewire then your
electrician should (should, mark you) be able to run additional cables
into the same spot for not a lot more than the cost of the cable. You
can save money by opting to do all the terminating yourself.

Put some in the ceiling, if you're able, for access points. I like
Unifi's APs; they're good value, they Just Work, and are dead easy to
implement even if you need more than one (though presumably you won't).

If you can afford it, get a switch which supports PoE. If not, at least
provide space for any PoE injectors you need, and a wall wart PSU for
each one. The Unifi APs have a holder which can be screwed to something
handy.

How exciting for you! An opportunity to get everything right in the
house. Except you won't; there's always something you forgot or never
thought of. :-(

--
Henry Law n e w s @ l a w s h o u s e . o r g
Manchester, England

[Henry Law]

On 18/07/17 15:02, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> added difficulty of most
> of these interior wall being structural brickwork

Seek others' opinions on this, but my experience is that ordinary
brickwork isn't a problem. My house is 1925 and has several significant
load-bearing walls internally. The single wireless AP is at ground
level (just inside the door to the cellar steps), and provides faultless
coverage from level -1 to level +1 and some way into the back garden.

In fact the previous wireless setup, which had wifi coming from the
router which is in the cellar (level -1), also provided full coverage
everywhere, though not so far into the garden.

[Stephen]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:02:17 +0100, "Anthony R. Gold"
<not-fo...@ahjg.co.uk> wrote:

>On 18 Jul 2017 13:07:43 GMT, David <wib...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:10:58 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
>>
>>> We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to move
>>> in by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd like to
>>> hear any thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single
>>> floor space with WiFi that will support as well as possible and as
>>> future-proof as possible a gigabit Internet connection that is also yet
>>> to be chosen. I don't know whether I should be planning to hard wire AP
>>> discs to ceilings or scatter mesh devices (from Google, Linksys or
>>> TP-Link etc) around the various rooms. Thanks for any advice on what to
>>> do or to avoid.

Mesh can be painful and difficult to sort out
- the retransmit makes for a big impact on throughput
- barriers so that some nodes see some but not all others cause more
overheads and collisions.

>>
>> If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
>> least one point in each room.
>>

2nd'ed

Although Cat 6 is the latest spec, Cat 5 can be easier to get into
tight spaces.
For short runs in a home the difference isnt going to matter.

Get it back to a common point if you can so there is 1 place for a
switch.

Power over Ethernet for the WiFi points makes for less hassle

>> You then already have Gigabit speeds available and can connect a wireless
>> AP to your LAN connection to service local wireless devices.
>>
>> Wired is (almost) always faster than wireless whatever headline speeds are
>> quoted.
>>
>> If you are thinking of wiring in fixed APs in the ceiling I assume that
>> you are already thinking of running wires to them; do a proper job and
>> wire Ethernet to everywhere.

Some APs are definitely better then others, and "handover" both
between 5G and 2.4G and between APs is where the complications show
up.

SoHo routers with integrated WiFi dont seem to behave well for multi
AP setups - I have tried several flavours over the years which all had
various issue and ended up going for more business oriented kit.

Some of the enterprise APs seem much more well behaved
- my preferred ones are the Ubiquiti UniFi ones, but there are a fair
few others.
- it is nice to have kit that doesnt need reboots for months......

>>
>> IMHO all the other strategies are to mitigate the lack of wired Ethernet.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>

>Thanks to you and others who commented and we are already wiring Cat6 to key
>places such as where computers, NAS's and servers abide. That part is
>straightforward. But in addition to those wired appliances I also want to
>have all parts of the flat well lit by WiFi, and it was just that segment
>about which I must now be out of date and seek advice.

Lots of over optimistic specs for WiFi - a lot of kit would saturate a
Gig Ethernet according to the datasheets.......

you do need more than 100 Mbps to handle a busy dual band AP, but they
will not compete with Cat6 for a long time.
>
>The last time I had this problem for a more open plan flat in a newer
>building in which most interior walls were just plasterboard I attached a
>couple of strategically sited Linksys LAPN600's to ceilings and that worked
>well enough. But with advances in technology such as wireless mesh, with new
>standards now up to IEEE 802.11-2016 and with the added difficulty of most
>of these interior wall being structural brickwork I am no longer confident
>that I know the best options and which way to go this time around.
Stephen Hope stephe...@xyzworld.com
Replace xyz with ntl to reply

[Philip Herlihy]

In article <yNmdnbgplobbiPPE...@giganews.com>,
ne...@lawshouse.org says...

>
> On 18/07/17 13:10, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> > We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to move in
> > by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd like to hear any
> > thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single floor space
>
> All the advice about Ethernet cable is spot on, IMO. Run as much Cat6
> as you can afford (as others have said, you don't even need to terminate
> it, to start with); assuming you're having a rewire then your
> electrician should (should, mark you) be able to run additional cables
> into the same spot for not a lot more than the cost of the cable. You
> can save money by opting to do all the terminating yourself.
>

...

Aren't there building regulations that insist that Ethernet wiring has
to be some distance from mains wiring?

--

Phil, London

[David]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:02:17 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:

> On 18 Jul 2017 13:07:43 GMT, David <wib...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>

>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 13:10:58 +0100, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
>>
>>> We are renovating a flat in an ancient (1885) building and hope to
>>> move in by mid-September. I am now turning my thoughts to WiFi. I'd
>>> like to hear any thoughts and suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom
>>> single floor space with WiFi that will support as well as possible and
>>> as future-proof as possible a gigabit Internet connection that is also
>>> yet to be chosen. I don't know whether I should be planning to hard
>>> wire AP discs to ceilings or scatter mesh devices (from Google,
>>> Linksys or TP-Link etc) around the various rooms. Thanks for any
>>> advice on what to do or to avoid.
>>
>> If your renovation includes rewiring then run in Ethernet cable to at
>> least one point in each room.
>>
>> You then already have Gigabit speeds available and can connect a
>> wireless AP to your LAN connection to service local wireless devices.
>>
>> Wired is (almost) always faster than wireless whatever headline speeds
>> are quoted.
>>
>> If you are thinking of wiring in fixed APs in the ceiling I assume that
>> you are already thinking of running wires to them; do a proper job and
>> wire Ethernet to everywhere.
>>
>> IMHO all the other strategies are to mitigate the lack of wired
>> Ethernet.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>>
>> Dave R
>

> Thanks to you and others who commented and we are already wiring Cat6 to
> key places such as where computers, NAS's and servers abide. That part
> is straightforward. But in addition to those wired appliances I also
> want to have all parts of the flat well lit by WiFi, and it was just
> that segment about which I must now be out of date and seek advice.
>

> The last time I had this problem for a more open plan flat in a newer
> building in which most interior walls were just plasterboard I attached
> a couple of strategically sited Linksys LAPN600's to ceilings and that
> worked well enough. But with advances in technology such as wireless
> mesh, with new standards now up to IEEE 802.11-2016 and with the added
> difficulty of most of these interior wall being structural brickwork I
> am no longer confident that I know the best options and which way to go
> this time around.

We live in a two storey 1930s brick built 3 bedroom semi with a rear
extension.

I have two wireless routers (one abused to make it act as an AP).

The first router is in the front corner of the house amongst loads of
computer kit and stuff, and the signal doesn't really reach to the
opposite bottom corner of the extension. As I have quite a lot of Cat5E
run back to a Gigabit switch under the stairs I've installed the second
router in the extension on a convenient surface.

Between the two of them they serve phones and tablets just fine.

I assume that you are putting APs in the ceilings for tidiness.
Good call - I'm not quite so tidy (or forward looking).

If you can have an Ethernet socket close to most 13A sockets then you
should have a wired connection to any laptops and the like, and also scope
to move the furniture around.

I think I didn't put enough sockets in, but hey ho.

On the KISS principle I would keep everything as simple as possible.
Wired wherever possible then one hop maximum via an AP to your Gigabit
network.

If you want to experiment with other network topologies then with plenty
of wires you have the opportunity.
I would just be wary of relying on things like mesh until you have
configured and benchmarked it. It may just sound attractive because "new
and shiny" and also (as I said above) it may be designed to overcome
limitations in fixed wiring.
I think the metropolitan mesh networks were designed for cheapness
compared with installing new fixed wiring.

As long as you have some spare Cat5/6 run to strategic locations you can
always change your mind later.

Please let us know how you get on!

[Rob Morley]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:22:16 +0100
Philip Herlihy <thiswillb...@you.com> wrote:

> In article <yNmdnbgplobbiPPE...@giganews.com>,
> ne...@lawshouse.org says...

> > All the advice about Ethernet cable is spot on, IMO. Run as much
> > Cat6 as you can afford (as others have said, you don't even need to
> > terminate it, to start with); assuming you're having a rewire then
> > your electrician should (should, mark you) be able to run
> > additional cables into the same spot for not a lot more than the
> > cost of the cable. You can save money by opting to do all the
> > terminating yourself.
> ...
>
> Aren't there building regulations that insist that Ethernet wiring
> has to be some distance from mains wiring?
>

ISTR you are correct, you're not allowed to run them in the same
conduit/cable-tray, although you can get around that to some extent
by using screened cable. Screened mains cable does add some general
safety, as well as reducing possible interference, but at a cost.

[dennis@home]

Its nothing to do with screening.
Mains cable has double insulation and is safe to carry 240V AC.

If you have ethernet cable that is also rated to carry 240V AC mains
voltages then you can mix them.
However the usual solution is to use ordinary ethernet cables and to
either space them out by 100mm or to have a physical barrier between
them and the mains. You can by trunking with a built in barrier just for
this purpose.

[Robin]

On 19/07/2017 20:51, dennis@home wrote:
>
> Its nothing to do with screening.

I think wires may be getting crossed :) It depends what "it" is. There
are different standards in play. Electrical safety (BS 7671) wants
"mains" and "data" separated for safety. Data cabling (BS 50174) wants
unscreened power cables kept further away from data than screened power.

[Vir Campestris]

On 18/07/2017 13:10, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> suggestions for illuminating a 3 bedroom single floor space
> with WiFi

A good router should do it. I'm 20 yards down the garden using a BT
homehub (which much to my surprise really is better than the old ones -
I think it beam forms in the direction it faces.

I've got 39Mbit.

That isn't going to stop me getting the wire running once I can borrow a
decent tester. It's broken somewhere :(

Andy