Showing the public what this deal actually means.
in...@westmidland-internet.co.uk
This is a copy of the first employers offer tabled on the 6 March
2003.
Sections between the asterisks are comments as to why the offer is
lunacy and WHY ALL those in the public sector need to take note
because they are coming for YOU NEXT!
1. INTRODUCTION
1.1 This is a package agreement, which integrates changes to
modernise the fire service with associated pay rises.
*************************************************************************
The integrated changes refer to permanent money saving changes to our
service in order to pay for the associated pay rises.
*************************************************************************
1.2 Any failure to abide by any part of this agreement by either side
constitutes a breach of the whole agreement and invalidates it in its
entirety.
*************************************************************************
Unless the FBU and all its members agree to this document and all of
the conditions attached, many of which as yet have been given no
detail or guarantee, then all increases in pay will fail.
*************************************************************************
2. FUNCTION AND TASKS OF THE FIRE SERVICE
2.1 The role of the fire service is the reduction in loss of life,
injury, economic and social cost arising from fires and other hazards.
*************************************************************************
Our duty to save life has been removed. In the future we are expected
to only reduce the loss of life to an acceptable level. And, in
agreeing definition to this we agree to all other hazards as matter of
course rather than by future negotiation.
*************************************************************************
2.2 The fire service is responsible for:
• risk reduction and risk management in relation to fires and some
other types of hazard or emergency,
*************************************************************************
What other types or hazards? What are we signing up to? Recent risk
based reports concluded the need for massive investment in the fire
service not cut backs, reductions and the loss of thousands of
firefighter and fire control staff.
*************************************************************************
• community fire safety and education,
*************************************************************************
No problem here except we need proper funding, proper facilities and
proper training – to achieve this and bring Community Fire safety into
the 21st century we need investment.
*************************************************************************
• fire safety enforcement,
*************************************************************************
This is an area of great concern. Hundreds, if not thousands of
firefighter jobs have already been lost due to the civilianisation of
many fire safety posts. For us to effectively enforce fire safety the
fire service needs both legal support, improved
powers and investment.
• emergency responses to fires and other emergencies where it is best
fitted to act as the primary agency responsible for the rescue of
people including road traffic accidents, chemical spillages and other
large-scale incidents such as transport accidents; and
*************************************************************************
Much of this we already do. Although there is no mention of water, mud
and ice rescue, rope rescue, animal rescue or firefighting at sea.
These skills will therefore continue to be unrecognised and more
importantly not funded. We will continue to perform life saving
specialist skills without recognition or payment.
*************************************************************************
• emergency preparedness coupled with the capacity and resilience to
respond to major incidents of terrorism and other chemical,
biological, radiological or nuclear threats.
*************************************************************************
This is a massive undertaking. Just look at the time, effort and
investment so far across the UK. Look at how desperate the Government
are for there to be a professional response to such threats in order
to satisfy public concerns. The fire service is already stretched to
its absolute limits training to retain current competancies and this
will be hit further if we allow thousands of job cuts. If this is to
become yet another primary responsibility of the service it must be
funded fully and staff at all levels must be consulted, allowed to
respond and ultimately paid for the additional training, skills and
responsiblities. Would your daily postman agree to deliver household
furniture without expecting extra rescources, training and payment?
*************************************************************************
2.3 The principal components of “firefighting” and “fire control” work
are covered by the relevant fire service national role maps. These
role maps reflect fire service responsibilities incorporated into
local risk management plans in order to: • apply a risk-based approach
to fire cover and to all its activities in deciding how best to use
its resources,
*************************************************************************
The unpublished Government report into risk based fire cover concluded
that massive investment was required throughout the UK fire service in
order to meet
the demands identified following detailed risk based reviews of fire
cover. Why are
we even considering reducing the size and ability of the UK fire
service?
*************************************************************************
• focus on reducing the level of fire and other emergencies,
*************************************************************************
A direct increase in our community fire safety workload and
responsibility. We will be expected to undertake education and
preventative work in other areas which are not specified. This will
require additional resources, training and time all of which will
result in a need for additional funding not cost cutting exercises.
*************************************************************************
• develop and maintain effective partnerships with a range of agencies
in the public, private and voluntary sectors where these can deliver
cost effective improvements in community safety,
*************************************************************************
Brilliant!! They have now dropped the word ‘fire’ and given us the all
encompassing task of community safety. And, whilst we are expected to
‘give’ our time and learn new skills and competencies in order to
educate our communities on all safety topics they expect others to pay
for it. A truly modern method of addressing serious community safety
issues?
*************************************************************************
• adopt safe systems of working to secure the health and safety of
both its staff and the general public: and
*************************************************************************
Reduce emergency fire cover. Reduce the number of firefighters and
fire control staff. Expect long overtime hours. Fail to provide
minimum safe crewing levels. Fail to crew fire engines and primary
crewed specials. Fail to prevent Hampshire pumps to respond with only
two and three riders. Expect control staff to work non-agreed
prearranged overtime etc etc. These are just a few examples of the
current commitment your employers give to adopting safe systems of
work and securing your health and safety. Without a Grey Book what
does your future hold?
• minimise the impact of the incidents it attends and of its response
at those incidents on the environment.
*************************************************************************
We are already committed to this. However to improve our efforts we
require further funding to invest in new equipment and training.
*************************************************************************
3. CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
3.1 The parties agree that the following principles will be included
in a new agreement on working arrangements to replace all of Section
II of the Grey Book with immediate effect:
*************************************************************************
Forget our pay claim; this is what the employers want. They want to
rip up and throw away the national conditions of service that many of
our familiy relations, friends and colleagues have fought long and
hard to secure. They want a workforce powerless to changes and
silenced over reductions and cut backs. Is this what you want?
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
• Management will determine the duty systems to be applied at each
location after consultation with staff locally and will determine the
working hours and deployment of employees within the framework of:
Very clever use of legally defined words: consultation with staff
means senior management to middle management; we are the employees –
we are afforded no consultation never mind negotiation through our
representative bodies. Just look at the problems in Hampshire at the
present time – all as a result of local management decision-making.
Just picture the future where our management team have a totally free
hand with no means to challenge or appeal.
*************************************************************************
(i) Average 42 hours’ basic week (inclusive of three hours’ meal
breaks in
every 24 hours) for full-timers; pro-rata for part-timers.
(ii) Standby, call-out and recall to duty arrangements similar to
those currently operating may be required. (This would allow for the
continuation of systems similar to the present day crewing and
flexible duty systems and would facilitate whole-timers and/or
part-timers undertaking retained duties where appropriate).
*************************************************************************
Where has the employers promise of the continued shift system gone?
They refer now to similar systems. They are also actively encouraging
full time firefighters to prop up deficiencies in the part time
service and commit long additional hours over and above a new local
and flexible shift pattern that may change every six
months and long additional overtime hours – all in the name of
modernisation and family friendly principles. In truth it is simply a
further attempt to run a first class service on the good will and
moral conscience of the work force and ultimately on the cheap.
*************************************************************************
(iii) At least two periods of 24 hours free of duty every week.
*************************************************************************
So no longer do we even get two days OFF consecutive. The idea is to
make us work a 5 day week but that week will include weekends and
nights on normal pay.
*************************************************************************
(iv) Obligation for employees to be based and deployed ANYWHERE and on
ANY duties appropriate to their competence, within the requirements of
the fire authority.
*************************************************************************
Local management will send you where they want, when they want and or
whatever period they choose. The team work approach via the current
watch system will disappear in favour of a total fluid and flexible
workforce. This will add great travel distances and create longer
working days for many members again this does not support the family
friendly principle the employers PRETEND to push.
*************************************************************************
(v) Requirement for management to publish duty rosters at least six
months in advance and to give individual employees at least fourteen
days notice of any changes to scheduled duty, other than in
emergencies or short-term contingencies.
*************************************************************************
Simply provides the local management with the facility to change your
shift pattern and/or move you at any time to anyplace for as long as
they want. No consideration for your travel, your family or your child
care arrangements.
*************************************************************************
(vi) Employees to be free to undertake pre-arranged overtime at
premium rates of pay for no more than 24 hours a month averaged over a
six month period. This will require the Fire Brigades Union to lift
its current ban on pre-arranged overtime.
*************************************************************************
A modern and well managed organisation should have the correct number
of staff in order for it to efficiently and effectively carry out its
roles and responsibilities without the need to rely upon ad hoc
overtime. Based on 32,000 full time firefighters this agreement would
effectively mean over 9,000,000 hours worked on overtime every year.
That equates to over 4,200 individual jobs. Overtime, whilst on the
surface it puts more cash in your pocket in reality it puts more jobs
on the line and reduces your future opportunities.
*************************************************************************
(vii) Compliance with any relevant UK or European law, including the
Working Time Regulations and the Health and Safety at Work
legislation.
*************************************************************************
As a responsible trade union we are already committed to complying
with the law and in many instances we lead our employers through the
practical aspects of complying with the law in our workplaces. For
example our workplace health and safety reps actively reduce the
amount of workplace accidents and injuries each year and they are
trained and qualified to levels that exceed many of our managers.
*************************************************************************
• In determining working arrangements, brigade management will take
into consideration where practicable any special circumstances
relating to individual employees.
*************************************************************************
That’s nice! But its also lies!
*************************************************************************
• Before changing working arrangements for groups of employees,
brigade management will consult the accredited representatives of
recognised unions and give appropriate consideration to their views.
*************************************************************************
Local management will consult but not negotiate. They will consider
your views.
On past and current experiences they will then do exactly what they
want.
Consider the ruling by ACAS last year on the crewing of the ICU in
Hampshire; they consulted, they negotiated, they were challenged and
taken to ACAS for arbitration, they lost and still they fail to crew
the vehicle in accordance with the ruling. With that level of
arrogance and commitment to work with your representative union what
hope is there for the future if all we are offered is consultation in
reality a quick chat to inform us a what is about to happen!
3.2 The parties agree to include in the national agreement by 31st
August 2003 statements of commitment on:
• health and safety
• occupational health
• family friendly working arrangements
*************************************************************************
The FBU have been demanding these commitments for years and in reality
this is nothing other than the employers being seen to comply with
already accepted laws and best working practices. However we do
welcome this acknowledgment to include these very important subjects
in our detailed and extensive national conditions of service – which
they are about to TRY put through the shredder!!
*************************************************************************
3.3 The parties agree to review by 31st August 2003 the following
parts of the national agreement:
• fairness at work
• maternity provisions
*************************************************************************
Ditto the above.
*************************************************************************
3.4 By 30th June 2003 a joint working group will prepare for the NJC’s
consideration a new Conditions of Service document to take the place
of the Grey Book. The new document will be drawn up on the principle
that - other than in relation to a framework of hours, leave, pay,
sick leave and maternity arrangements - most conditions of service
issues will be decided locally.
*************************************************************************
The loss of everything that gives us a voice and a right in the
workplace. The loss of everything others have fought long and hard to
secure for you. And, most worryingly of all your future is put
squarely in the hands our your local management team and fire
authority. Whatever motivational or political agenda they have they
will be given an almost free hand to impose and change what ever
they wish, whenever they wish…and they will because they, like all
politicians will have an agenda and we will have no voice or power to
challenge or stop them.
*************************************************************************
4. PROCEDURES
4.1 With immediate effect the operation of the procedure for dealing
with local disputes will be bi-lateral at each stage in each dispute.
*************************************************************************
This means that the procedure will operate only in cases where, and
to the extent that, both parties agree that it should operate.
This will allow us to continue registering disputes but means that
unless the local authority employers agree that it is a dispute it
will not be considered such. This will further reduce our rights of
appeal and our right to challenge any future decisions our local
management and employers wish to impose upon us.
*************************************************************************
4.2 In the event that the Fire Service Discipline Regulations are
abolished a joint working group will prepare for the NJC’s
consideration a national agreement to take their based on the
principles of the ACAS Code of Practice on Disciplinary and Grievance
Procedures.
*************************************************************************
This will see accelerated use of procedures like capability as a means
for dismissal from the service and many other conditions imposed upon
you with out the right or facility of a fair hearing or appeal.
*************************************************************************
5. NEGOTIATING MACHINERY
5.1 By 30th September 2003 a working group representing all fire
service stakeholders will prepare a Constitution for new national
negotiating machinery to take the place of the current NJC. The report
of this working group will be presented to the appropriate fire
service stakeholders for ratification during October 2003.
*************************************************************************
This is an attempt to introduce the RFU (Retained Fire Fighters Unoin)
to the national negotiating arena. The RFU remain unrecognised by the
TUC as a trade union. Remember, it was the RFU that helped create the
now completely discredited Bain Report.
*************************************************************************
6. AD HOC FORUM
6.1 The parties to this agreement note that the Government has
convened an Ad Hoc Forum to consider a wide range of issues outside
the NJC’s scope, which will inform Government policy through the
publication of a
White Paper, including the following:
• pensions
• replacement for the Appointments and Promotions Regulations
• abolition of the Discipline Regulations
• joint control rooms
• collaborative arrangements
• implementation of integrated risk management
• non-negotiable aspects of IPDS implementation
*************************************************************************
Effectively, what our employers have not managed to get their hands on
through the decimation of our national conditions of service and the
creation of a new national negotiating forum they will get their way
through this White Paper. Your pension is up for reform, the
Discipline Regulations which are there to protect you will be gone,
fire control rooms will close with the loss of further jobs,
all other issues will only result is further cuts in our conditions of
service and benefits.
*************************************************************************
6.2 Although these discussions are outside the scope of the NJC they
are integral to this agreement, implementation of parts of which
depend on the outcome of the discussions in the Ad Hoc Forum and
subsequent local implementation of the resulting changes.
*************************************************************************
So anything they can not chnage them selves they insist that others
CAN change them. OR the whole pay structure and pay rise will NOT be
implemented.
*************************************************************************
7. PAY
7.1 STAGE 1
With effect from 7th November 2002
All current pay rates to be increased by 4%.
*************************************************************************
Subject to us agreeing unreservedly to all of the above.
*************************************************************************
STAGE 2
With effect from 7th November 2003
Average pay increases of 7%, distributed as agreed by the NJC. (A
joint working group will report to the NJC on this matter by 31st
October 2003).
From the same date, a new pay structure will operate to reflect the
new IPDS role structure.
*************************************************************************
An average only. Some will, some will not. Subject to verified
implementation of all of the above. AND DO YOU TRUST ACAS NOW?
*************************************************************************
STAGE 3
With effect from 1st July 2004
Average pay increases of 4.2%. For qualified/competent firefighters
this would produce a cumulative increase of 16% over stages 1 to 3 and
an annual salary of £25,000.
*************************************************************************
Who is qualified? Who is competent? What is the difference/advantage?
£25,000 is over £5,000 less that your true market value. This has
never been officially disputed by your employers. They have never
disputed the results of the Labour Research Departments report proving
that you are worth over £30,000.
Instead they have simply tried to avoid the cost and impose changes
and cost cuttings policies to maximise a ‘self financing’ pay deal.
They refuse to accept that it is their responsibility to pay you what
you are worth and they must not insist that you agree for others to
loose theirs jobs or their rights in order to free up a extra cash to
give you a little more.
*************************************************************************
STAGE 4
With effect from 1st July 2005
Pay to be increased in line with a pay formula. Details and terms to
be determined by the NJC as soon as possible.
*************************************************************************
No indication or detail on what the new formula might be. We can not
sign up to this without concise information as this is crucial to the
long term security of appropriate pay levels in the fire service.
*************************************************************************
STAGE 5
With effect from 1st July 2006
Pay to be increased in line with a pay formula. Details and terms to
be determined by the NJC as soon as possible.
*************************************************************************
No indication or detail on what the new formula might be. We can not
sign up to this without concise information as this is crucial to the
long term security of appropriate pay levels in the fire service.
*************************************************************************
7.2 The payments at stages 2 and 3 are subject to:
*************************************************************************
Here it is the pre-conditions to any pay rise. And that is the route
to the problem. The employers insist this is a pay rise rather that an
adjustment or regrading of our job roles and responsibilities along
with a more appropriate level of pay.
*************************************************************************
(a) completion of all the negotiations and consultations referred to
in this agreement and, where appropriate, their ratification by the
Fire Service National Employers, the Fire Brigades Union and
Government: and
(b) verification by the Audit Commission (England and Wales), Accounts
Commission (Scotland) and Government (Northern Ireland) that the
intended benefits (including savings) of the various national changes
are being delivered locally.
7.3 New retained pay arrangements (to be agreed by the NJC by 31st
October 2003) will be introduced with effect from 7th November 2003,
incorporating the principle of pay parity.
*************************************************************************
Retained firefighters must wait until next November to see if the
employers are prepared to actually pay them equal to that of their
wholetime colleagues. The employers are only agreeing to this in
principle as they state above.
What DO YOU say now CHADBON??
*************************************************************************
7.4. The NJC will make arrangements for a joint evaluation of the
relative job weights of the firefighters’ and emergency fire control
operators’ jobs, taking alI relevant considerations into account. The
results of this evaluation will be reported to the NJC by 31st May
2003. If it is agreed that the existing 92% relationship should be
improved, this will be backdated to 7th November 2002.
*************************************************************************
Fire Control operators must wait. And wait. And wait. The employers
fail to acknowledge or respect your increased skill levels and pivitol
role within the fire service.
*************************************************************************
That ends the employers final offer which was tabled on Thursday 6
March 2003.
It fails to improve any previous agreement or understanding, INDEED it
falls short of previous understandings made before Christmas and
suggests someone else is pulling THEIR STRINGS.
The offer fails to acknowledge or respect the incredible advancement
of the UK fire and rescue service and inparticular the men and women
that have, through their determined efforts, hard work and good will,
brought about the improvements.
To offer a fully qualified firefighter or fire control operator an
extra £10.00 a week is both disgraceful and unbelievable.
Firefly
hope you are satisfied with this document which has obviously been prepared
a long time ago without a single thought of 'negotiation', just pure
imposition. You know and we know that this crap is NOT going to make the UK
fire service a better service, or a more modern service, or a more efficient
service. But you are all too scared to come out of your little ivory towers
and speak up. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU. People
(both civilian and fire service) WILL die as a result of this criminal,
politically motivated, cost cutting, union bashing document, AND YOU ARE
RESPONSIBLE. Does it make you feel proud? You simply DONT CARE!
About 95% of CFOs are out to feather their own nests and eventually end up
with a job with HMI, and therefore if they could get rid of the FBU, this
would make it easier for them to shine by making politically motivated cuts
in their individual brigades and get themselves some 'brownie points'. What
a shocking way to live your lives. PARASITES. They ALL know that it is the
FBU who have MADE changes happen in the fire service, on equal opps, health
and safety, training, new equipment, and many other things. This shit
document is no good for anyone, including CFOs. Come on you lot, come out of
your closets and tell these bloody ignorant buffoons that this is going too
far! DO IT!
ACAS has now lost ALL credibility and can now be seen as a 'friend of the
government' an appeaser. If that last four weeks of 'negotiations' witnessed
by ACAS is in their eyes fair and just negotiations, then they are
absolutely crap.
All this crap at a time when Humberside fire service has just received
another 'charter mark'. I believe the report said "there are NO areas where
any significant improvements or changes need to be made". Probably every
brigade in the country is in the same boat as Humberside, yet these idiots
try to convince the public that the fire service is a thousand years behind
the times and needs total 'modernisation'. Even Bain said it was the
politicians, the fire authorities, and senior management that had been
lacking in leadership, and not the end that actually delivers the service.
What a shit, sad, state of affairs this all really is, ALL you people at the
top echelons of this service, hang your heads, because you are
CRAP..........
<in...@westmidland-internet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bj3v6vc6lr1gginis...@4ax.com...
> . risk reduction and risk management in relation to fires and some
> other types of hazard or emergency,
>
> *************************************************************************
> What other types or hazards? What are we signing up to? Recent risk
> based reports concluded the need for massive investment in the fire
> service not cut backs, reductions and the loss of thousands of
> firefighter and fire control staff.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . community fire safety and education,
> *************************************************************************
> No problem here except we need proper funding, proper facilities and
> proper training - to achieve this and bring Community Fire safety into
> the 21st century we need investment.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . fire safety enforcement,
> *************************************************************************
> This is an area of great concern. Hundreds, if not thousands of
> firefighter jobs have already been lost due to the civilianisation of
> many fire safety posts. For us to effectively enforce fire safety the
> fire service needs both legal support, improved
> powers and investment.
>
> . emergency responses to fires and other emergencies where it is best
> fitted to act as the primary agency responsible for the rescue of
> people including road traffic accidents, chemical spillages and other
> large-scale incidents such as transport accidents; and
>
> *************************************************************************
> Much of this we already do. Although there is no mention of water, mud
> and ice rescue, rope rescue, animal rescue or firefighting at sea.
> These skills will therefore continue to be unrecognised and more
> importantly not funded. We will continue to perform life saving
> specialist skills without recognition or payment.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . emergency preparedness coupled with the capacity and resilience to
> respond to major incidents of terrorism and other chemical,
> biological, radiological or nuclear threats.
>
> *************************************************************************
> This is a massive undertaking. Just look at the time, effort and
> investment so far across the UK. Look at how desperate the Government
> are for there to be a professional response to such threats in order
> to satisfy public concerns. The fire service is already stretched to
> its absolute limits training to retain current competancies and this
> will be hit further if we allow thousands of job cuts. If this is to
> become yet another primary responsibility of the service it must be
> funded fully and staff at all levels must be consulted, allowed to
> respond and ultimately paid for the additional training, skills and
> responsiblities. Would your daily postman agree to deliver household
> furniture without expecting extra rescources, training and payment?
>
> *************************************************************************
>
> 2.3 The principal components of "firefighting" and "fire control" work
> are covered by the relevant fire service national role maps. These
> role maps reflect fire service responsibilities incorporated into
> local risk management plans in order to: . apply a risk-based approach
> to fire cover and to all its activities in deciding how best to use
> its resources,
> *************************************************************************
> The unpublished Government report into risk based fire cover concluded
> that massive investment was required throughout the UK fire service in
> order to meet
> the demands identified following detailed risk based reviews of fire
> cover. Why are
> we even considering reducing the size and ability of the UK fire
> service?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
> . focus on reducing the level of fire and other emergencies,
>
> *************************************************************************
> A direct increase in our community fire safety workload and
> responsibility. We will be expected to undertake education and
> preventative work in other areas which are not specified. This will
> require additional resources, training and time all of which will
> result in a need for additional funding not cost cutting exercises.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . develop and maintain effective partnerships with a range of agencies
> in the public, private and voluntary sectors where these can deliver
> cost effective improvements in community safety,
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Brilliant!! They have now dropped the word 'fire' and given us the all
> encompassing task of community safety. And, whilst we are expected to
> 'give' our time and learn new skills and competencies in order to
> educate our communities on all safety topics they expect others to pay
> for it. A truly modern method of addressing serious community safety
> issues?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> . adopt safe systems of working to secure the health and safety of
> both its staff and the general public: and
>
> *************************************************************************
> Reduce emergency fire cover. Reduce the number of firefighters and
> fire control staff. Expect long overtime hours. Fail to provide
> minimum safe crewing levels. Fail to crew fire engines and primary
> crewed specials. Fail to prevent Hampshire pumps to respond with only
> two and three riders. Expect control staff to work non-agreed
> prearranged overtime etc etc. These are just a few examples of the
> current commitment your employers give to adopting safe systems of
> work and securing your health and safety. Without a Grey Book what
> does your future hold?
>
>
> . minimise the impact of the incidents it attends and of its response
> at those incidents on the environment.
>
> *************************************************************************
> We are already committed to this. However to improve our efforts we
> require further funding to invest in new equipment and training.
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> 3. CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
> 3.1 The parties agree that the following principles will be included
> in a new agreement on working arrangements to replace all of Section
> II of the Grey Book with immediate effect:
>
> *************************************************************************
> Forget our pay claim; this is what the employers want. They want to
> rip up and throw away the national conditions of service that many of
> our familiy relations, friends and colleagues have fought long and
> hard to secure. They want a workforce powerless to changes and
> silenced over reductions and cut backs. Is this what you want?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> . Management will determine the duty systems to be applied at each
> location after consultation with staff locally and will determine the
> working hours and deployment of employees within the framework of:
> Very clever use of legally defined words: consultation with staff
> means senior management to middle management; we are the employees -
> we are afforded no consultation never mind negotiation through our
> representative bodies. Just look at the problems in Hampshire at the
> present time - all as a result of local management decision-making.
> Just picture the future where our management team have a totally free
> hand with no means to challenge or appeal.
> *************************************************************************
>
> (i) Average 42 hours' basic week (inclusive of three hours' meal
> breaks in
> every 24 hours) for full-timers; pro-rata for part-timers.
> (ii) Standby, call-out and recall to duty arrangements similar to
> those currently operating may be required. (This would allow for the
> continuation of systems similar to the present day crewing and
> flexible duty systems and would facilitate whole-timers and/or
> part-timers undertaking retained duties where appropriate).
>
>
>
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Where has the employers promise of the continued shift system gone?
> They refer now to similar systems. They are also actively encouraging
> full time firefighters to prop up deficiencies in the part time
> service and commit long additional hours over and above a new local
> and flexible shift pattern that may change every six
> months and long additional overtime hours - all in the name of
> . In determining working arrangements, brigade management will take
> into consideration where practicable any special circumstances
> relating to individual employees.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> That's nice! But its also lies!
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> . Before changing working arrangements for groups of employees,
> brigade management will consult the accredited representatives of
> recognised unions and give appropriate consideration to their views.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Local management will consult but not negotiate. They will consider
> your views.
> On past and current experiences they will then do exactly what they
> want.
> Consider the ruling by ACAS last year on the crewing of the ICU in
> Hampshire; they consulted, they negotiated, they were challenged and
> taken to ACAS for arbitration, they lost and still they fail to crew
> the vehicle in accordance with the ruling. With that level of
> arrogance and commitment to work with your representative union what
> hope is there for the future if all we are offered is consultation in
> reality a quick chat to inform us a what is about to happen!
>
>
>
> 3.2 The parties agree to include in the national agreement by 31st
> August 2003 statements of commitment on:
>
> . health and safety
> . occupational health
> . family friendly working arrangements
>
> *************************************************************************
> The FBU have been demanding these commitments for years and in reality
> this is nothing other than the employers being seen to comply with
> already accepted laws and best working practices. However we do
> welcome this acknowledgment to include these very important subjects
> in our detailed and extensive national conditions of service - which
> they are about to TRY put through the shredder!!
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> 3.3 The parties agree to review by 31st August 2003 the following
> parts of the national agreement:
> . fairness at work
> . maternity provisions
>
> *************************************************************************
> Ditto the above.
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
> 3.4 By 30th June 2003 a joint working group will prepare for the NJC's
> consideration a new Conditions of Service document to take the place
> of the Grey Book. The new document will be drawn up on the principle
> that - other than in relation to a framework of hours, leave, pay,
> sick leave and maternity arrangements - most conditions of service
> issues will be decided locally.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> The loss of everything that gives us a voice and a right in the
> workplace. The loss of everything others have fought long and hard to
> secure for you. And, most worryingly of all your future is put
> squarely in the hands our your local management team and fire
> authority. Whatever motivational or political agenda they have they
> will be given an almost free hand to impose and change what ever
> they wish, whenever they wish.and they will because they, like all
> . pensions
> . replacement for the Appointments and Promotions Regulations
> . abolition of the Discipline Regulations
> . joint control rooms
> . collaborative arrangements
> . implementation of integrated risk management
> . non-negotiable aspects of IPDS implementation
Mark
DOES NOT work for one the big national papers, it`s obvious because this
piece shows no bias towards the spin machine, and it also shows the guy has
some knowledge of the UK fire service;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
Monday, 10th March
Firefighters are calling the LGA's latest pay offer the charter for a
Martini Fire Service. They allude to clauses whereby Senior Fire
Officers would have the right to demand that firefighters work 'any
time, any place, any where'. This serves to highlight just one aspect
of a document that would seem more appropriate to the Victorian Era
than as an example of modern industrial relations. It is an offer
which the Government knew could never be acceptable to the FBU.
It has been suggested that the Government have deliberately pursued a
policy of attrition, stalling and delaying, prolonging negotiations,
describing talks as constructive and then, after raising hopes,
re-hashing the same offers which have already been rejected. They
hope, by these tactics to slowly wear down the resolve of ordinary
firefighter, while at the same time trying to hide the true
deficiencies of their proposals by feeding the public with a constant
barrage of propaganda. Almost before the document was 'leaked', the
LGA were describing the offer as 'exceptional', Mr Blair claimed to be
'amazed' that the offer was not accepted and claimed that the FBU
would lose any support from the TUC and the public. This concern for
public opinion - a new departure for Mr Blair - is a merely a
contrivance to divert attention away from cold, hard facts. This
document is a catalogue of the worse possible management techniques
and exemplifies the Government's stance on industrial relations
Under the new proposals firefighters would be required to work at any
station within a Brigades area, with little advance notice and with no
limit to the number of occasions on which they could be moved. Senior
Officers could alter work rotas and shift patters with little notice
and without any consultation. Although entitled to two days-off in any
seven day period, there is no guarantee that they will be consecutive
days and those days-off could actually be counted against annual
leave. Like most of us who work nine to five, firefighters must be
able to anticipate regular shift patterns in order to ensure the
stability of their home lives, Many families rely on one partner being
able to take responsibility for child-minding while the other is at
work, arrangements which cannot easily be altered. Firefighters are
used to working days and nights, weekends and Bank Holidays and have
adapted their family routines accordingly but the demands which the
proposed changes will place on family life can hardly be described as
'family friendly'.
The new working hours which which the LGA seek to impose upon the Fire
Service are an embarrassing anachronism that will haunt Mr Blair to
the end of his premiership. Retaining the 42 hour week but with the
additional demands for up to 24 hours a month pre-arranged overtime
will effectively take firefighters up to the European maximum
working-week of 48 hours. I well remember as a child, standing with my
father at a mass rally of engineering workers in Trafford Park,
Manchester, as they campaigned for the 42 hour week. That was almost
half a century ago but I still recall my father promising me that
things would be 'even better' in my day. He was not what people would
call a clever man, but he was honest and I believed him. Now 'clever'
men are making a mockery of the ideals which my father taught me. If
now is the time to change shift patterns that have served so well
since 1977, why is it not possible to base the new, 'flexible'
arrangements on a 37 hour week. No-one yet knows what form the new
shift systems will take: indeed, to paraphrase King Lear "I know not
what they will be, but they will be the 'wonders' of this earth". It
is still not too late. If this really is a 'caring' Government, why
not improve the Fire Service by reducing hours rather than the number
of firefighters.
Although Trade Unionism has, on occasion, been brought into disrepute
by the actions of extremists, the goal of a shorter working week has
always, and will always be one of its highest ideals. It is one of the
fundamental measures of a modern, civilised society; to have the
freedom to spend time with family, to enjoy leisure and to relax. The
FBU would be culpable if it failed in its duty to oppose the
imposition of such retrograde legislation which is being proposed by
this Government. It would also be very foolish, for this so-called
'exceptional' offer has other strings attached which would effectively
emasculate the FBU. Any rights which the union now have to represent
their members would be signed away and firefighters disciplinary
procedures would , in effect, be completely at the whim of individual
Chief Fire Officers.
In return for accepting a total erosion of their working conditions,
firefighters would receive a 16% increase spread over a period of
almost 3 years. When the full effects of the deal come into effect by
July 2004 the pay for a fully qualified firefighter would rise to
£25,000 pa. The Union could never contemplate accepting all the
conditions attached to this offer. It is remotely possible, however,
that ordinary firefighters may decide to take the money and run. Who
could blame them? They have been maligned and misrepresented by the
Government, vilified by the Press and, with war on the horizon, feel
that they will be portrayed as unpatriotic even though many
firefighters are ex-service themselves. If they do, it is we, the
public who will lose out, for we will never recover the Fire Service
that has served us so well, for so long.
<in...@westmidland-internet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bj3v6vc6lr1gginis...@4ax.com...
>
> . risk reduction and risk management in relation to fires and some
> other types of hazard or emergency,
>
> *************************************************************************
> What other types or hazards? What are we signing up to? Recent risk
> based reports concluded the need for massive investment in the fire
> service not cut backs, reductions and the loss of thousands of
> firefighter and fire control staff.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . community fire safety and education,
> *************************************************************************
> No problem here except we need proper funding, proper facilities and
> proper training - to achieve this and bring Community Fire safety into
> the 21st century we need investment.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . fire safety enforcement,
> *************************************************************************
> This is an area of great concern. Hundreds, if not thousands of
> firefighter jobs have already been lost due to the civilianisation of
> many fire safety posts. For us to effectively enforce fire safety the
> fire service needs both legal support, improved
> powers and investment.
>
> . emergency responses to fires and other emergencies where it is best
> fitted to act as the primary agency responsible for the rescue of
> people including road traffic accidents, chemical spillages and other
> large-scale incidents such as transport accidents; and
>
> *************************************************************************
> Much of this we already do. Although there is no mention of water, mud
> and ice rescue, rope rescue, animal rescue or firefighting at sea.
> These skills will therefore continue to be unrecognised and more
> importantly not funded. We will continue to perform life saving
> specialist skills without recognition or payment.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . emergency preparedness coupled with the capacity and resilience to
> respond to major incidents of terrorism and other chemical,
> biological, radiological or nuclear threats.
>
> *************************************************************************
> This is a massive undertaking. Just look at the time, effort and
> investment so far across the UK. Look at how desperate the Government
> are for there to be a professional response to such threats in order
> to satisfy public concerns. The fire service is already stretched to
> its absolute limits training to retain current competancies and this
> will be hit further if we allow thousands of job cuts. If this is to
> become yet another primary responsibility of the service it must be
> funded fully and staff at all levels must be consulted, allowed to
> respond and ultimately paid for the additional training, skills and
> responsiblities. Would your daily postman agree to deliver household
> furniture without expecting extra rescources, training and payment?
>
> *************************************************************************
>
> 2.3 The principal components of "firefighting" and "fire control" work
> are covered by the relevant fire service national role maps. These
> role maps reflect fire service responsibilities incorporated into
> local risk management plans in order to: . apply a risk-based approach
> to fire cover and to all its activities in deciding how best to use
> its resources,
> *************************************************************************
> The unpublished Government report into risk based fire cover concluded
> that massive investment was required throughout the UK fire service in
> order to meet
> the demands identified following detailed risk based reviews of fire
> cover. Why are
> we even considering reducing the size and ability of the UK fire
> service?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
> . focus on reducing the level of fire and other emergencies,
>
> *************************************************************************
> A direct increase in our community fire safety workload and
> responsibility. We will be expected to undertake education and
> preventative work in other areas which are not specified. This will
> require additional resources, training and time all of which will
> result in a need for additional funding not cost cutting exercises.
> *************************************************************************
>
> . develop and maintain effective partnerships with a range of agencies
> in the public, private and voluntary sectors where these can deliver
> cost effective improvements in community safety,
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Brilliant!! They have now dropped the word 'fire' and given us the all
> encompassing task of community safety. And, whilst we are expected to
> 'give' our time and learn new skills and competencies in order to
> educate our communities on all safety topics they expect others to pay
> for it. A truly modern method of addressing serious community safety
> issues?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> . adopt safe systems of working to secure the health and safety of
> both its staff and the general public: and
>
> *************************************************************************
> Reduce emergency fire cover. Reduce the number of firefighters and
> fire control staff. Expect long overtime hours. Fail to provide
> minimum safe crewing levels. Fail to crew fire engines and primary
> crewed specials. Fail to prevent Hampshire pumps to respond with only
> two and three riders. Expect control staff to work non-agreed
> prearranged overtime etc etc. These are just a few examples of the
> current commitment your employers give to adopting safe systems of
> work and securing your health and safety. Without a Grey Book what
> does your future hold?
>
>
> . minimise the impact of the incidents it attends and of its response
> at those incidents on the environment.
>
> *************************************************************************
> We are already committed to this. However to improve our efforts we
> require further funding to invest in new equipment and training.
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> 3. CONDITIONS OF SERVICE
> 3.1 The parties agree that the following principles will be included
> in a new agreement on working arrangements to replace all of Section
> II of the Grey Book with immediate effect:
>
> *************************************************************************
> Forget our pay claim; this is what the employers want. They want to
> rip up and throw away the national conditions of service that many of
> our familiy relations, friends and colleagues have fought long and
> hard to secure. They want a workforce powerless to changes and
> silenced over reductions and cut backs. Is this what you want?
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> . Management will determine the duty systems to be applied at each
> location after consultation with staff locally and will determine the
> working hours and deployment of employees within the framework of:
> Very clever use of legally defined words: consultation with staff
> means senior management to middle management; we are the employees -
> we are afforded no consultation never mind negotiation through our
> representative bodies. Just look at the problems in Hampshire at the
> present time - all as a result of local management decision-making.
> Just picture the future where our management team have a totally free
> hand with no means to challenge or appeal.
> *************************************************************************
>
> (i) Average 42 hours' basic week (inclusive of three hours' meal
> breaks in
> every 24 hours) for full-timers; pro-rata for part-timers.
> (ii) Standby, call-out and recall to duty arrangements similar to
> those currently operating may be required. (This would allow for the
> continuation of systems similar to the present day crewing and
> flexible duty systems and would facilitate whole-timers and/or
> part-timers undertaking retained duties where appropriate).
>
>
>
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Where has the employers promise of the continued shift system gone?
> They refer now to similar systems. They are also actively encouraging
> full time firefighters to prop up deficiencies in the part time
> service and commit long additional hours over and above a new local
> and flexible shift pattern that may change every six
> months and long additional overtime hours - all in the name of
> . In determining working arrangements, brigade management will take
> into consideration where practicable any special circumstances
> relating to individual employees.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> That's nice! But its also lies!
> *************************************************************************
>
>
> . Before changing working arrangements for groups of employees,
> brigade management will consult the accredited representatives of
> recognised unions and give appropriate consideration to their views.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> Local management will consult but not negotiate. They will consider
> your views.
> On past and current experiences they will then do exactly what they
> want.
> Consider the ruling by ACAS last year on the crewing of the ICU in
> Hampshire; they consulted, they negotiated, they were challenged and
> taken to ACAS for arbitration, they lost and still they fail to crew
> the vehicle in accordance with the ruling. With that level of
> arrogance and commitment to work with your representative union what
> hope is there for the future if all we are offered is consultation in
> reality a quick chat to inform us a what is about to happen!
>
>
>
> 3.2 The parties agree to include in the national agreement by 31st
> August 2003 statements of commitment on:
>
> . health and safety
> . occupational health
> . family friendly working arrangements
>
> *************************************************************************
> The FBU have been demanding these commitments for years and in reality
> this is nothing other than the employers being seen to comply with
> already accepted laws and best working practices. However we do
> welcome this acknowledgment to include these very important subjects
> in our detailed and extensive national conditions of service - which
> they are about to TRY put through the shredder!!
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> 3.3 The parties agree to review by 31st August 2003 the following
> parts of the national agreement:
> . fairness at work
> . maternity provisions
>
> *************************************************************************
> Ditto the above.
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
> 3.4 By 30th June 2003 a joint working group will prepare for the NJC's
> consideration a new Conditions of Service document to take the place
> of the Grey Book. The new document will be drawn up on the principle
> that - other than in relation to a framework of hours, leave, pay,
> sick leave and maternity arrangements - most conditions of service
> issues will be decided locally.
>
>
> *************************************************************************
> The loss of everything that gives us a voice and a right in the
> workplace. The loss of everything others have fought long and hard to
> secure for you. And, most worryingly of all your future is put
> squarely in the hands our your local management team and fire
> authority. Whatever motivational or political agenda they have they
> will be given an almost free hand to impose and change what ever
> they wish, whenever they wish.and they will because they, like all
> . pensions
> . replacement for the Appointments and Promotions Regulations
> . abolition of the Discipline Regulations
> . joint control rooms
> . collaborative arrangements
> . implementation of integrated risk management
> . non-negotiable aspects of IPDS implementation
Jake
>fire-fighters are ex-service themselves
Who joined the brigade as it was double the wage and half the work they had
been used to, less hours with more money in the bank. To keep the family
I am ex-service but did not think of the easy route to civvy street
The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
£12.500 per year as of 2003
Doctors, senior nursing staff, paramedics, scientists surgeons and
electronic engineers who have qualified via university may have a salary of
about £18.000 - £24.000
Ordinary workers get between £8.000 and £13.000 if they are lucky and work
unsocial hours for no extra allowances
You really need to see what you really are in the real world, a bunch of ex
no-body's who made a decision to do something other than, motor mechanic,
butcher, shop assistant, ex-forces or door to door salesman to become a
fireperson dedicated to save people from themselves
I suggest you read the situations vacant in your local paper and see what is
available and the wages offered
you may get an idea of what real life is about and the wages available to us
commoners
In the current situation, with the country at the moment
facing the possibility of War. Even though many
fire-fighters are ex-service themselves you really are traitors putting our
sons and daughters even more in danger for your own gain
Yes I am bitter, as I work 42 hours a week 10:00 to 14:00 then 1700 - 21:-00
Mon off Tue then on Wed off Thu on Fri Sat then Sun 11:00 - 21-00
Oh I do get a company car which I can not work without
so the Gov take £700 of my salary of £12.670 pre tax
Not many people want their homes decorated or their cars serviced, chimney's
swept,kitchens fitted or gym instruction at night so I am unable to do your
second jobs to improve my take home pay
Sod you Jack I am alright
The Real world
Jake
--
Nil Bastardus Carborundum
Andy T
<the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>unpatriotic even though many
>>fire-fighters are ex-service themselves
>
>I am ex-service but did not think of the easy route to civvy street
Now why does that NOT surprise me!
>
>The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
>£12.500 per year as of 2003
Complete and utter fabrication! If you insist on posting lies please
get your lies right!
Regards Andy T
--
For users by users - BY-users group
<http://www.by-users.co.uk>
Jake
>Now why does that NOT surprise me!
I have no idea, but when I left the forces I did not think
of joining another government service. I just wanted to be a civilian, and
the fire service was not even a contender
I just took a job in civvy street and for the past twenty years just
accepted the recommended government pay rise which varied around 4% per
year till the last couple of years when it became around 1% or 2.5% as it
is now
I had no option actually as the company said take it, leave it, or go. I
had a mortgage and a family to keep so I just accepted it rather than
unemployment and now I am stuck where I am, too old to quit for anything
else and not old enough to retire on my £149 pw PENSION
>>The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
>>£12.500 per year as of 2003
>Complete and utter fabrication! If you insist on posting >lies please get
your lies right!
Please post some employment opportunities that would offer more for a
working man as in
Painter and decorator
Motor mechanic
Office clerk
Shop assistant
Special needs assistant
Teachers, Nurses, and Para medics scientific service officers and SOCO have
to have a University degreee now and I think you will find the salary is
about £18500 rising to £22000 after five years fully qualified including
shift allowances
Read any local paper Situations Vacant page, and you will find most
employment is offered at £5.10 per hour inclusive of shifts, unless you have
a University degree when a salary is offered which is usually between
£18.000 and £24.000 per annum
What do you find to be lies then Andy T,
I am reading job offers in the North East /West of England or Scotland
Maybe employers in the South offer lots more but I am not a liar and only
quote what I know I am not a liar and I resent the insinuation by you that I
am
Jake
Regards Andy T
--
Nil Bastardus Carborundum
Jake
>>£12.500 per year as of 2003
>Complete and utter fabrication! If you insist on posting >lies please get
your lies right!
I visited the local site
www.fifeonline.co.uk but the wages are hidden from public view as in salary
= £0 more on application
I can copy items from the Newcastle press Carlisle press and Scottish press,
but then it would not be proof to you as I could have typed anything, but I
assure you I am honest and the wage inclusive of evening, night or weekend
work is £5.10 ph (average)for a working man
A working man is a manual worker as in machinist,painter,office
worker,driver,shop assistant,help line worker.electronics engineer, service
worker,mechanic
All these jobs are offered a renumeration between
£4.20 and £5.10 inclusive of shift work
Then we have the white collar workers and Graduates who's salary ranges from
£18.000 - £24.000 these are
the people who have attended University for five years and have and
overdraft of around £8000 to pay off
and make light decisions of whether or not to turn your life support machine
off at 0400 in the morning or wait to tell your mother first at 0600 before
they make their way home to bed ready for their next shift
(I do not know if many of these repair cars or fit kitchens in their time
off too tired maybe)
Oops off on a we rant there, we were discussing wages yes in the NE/West The
wage for a working man really is about £5.10ph irrespective of the hours
worked
Andy T
<the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
>>>£12.500 per year as of 2003
>
>>Complete and utter fabrication! If you insist on posting >lies please get
>your lies right!
>
>I visited the local site
>www.fifeonline.co.uk but the wages are hidden from public view as in salary
>= £0 more on application
>
>I can copy items from the Newcastle press Carlisle press and Scottish press,
>but then it would not be proof to you as I could have typed anything, but I
>assure you I am honest and the wage inclusive of evening, night or weekend
>work is £5.10 ph (average)for a working man
>
Hi jake
Again your attitude and manner has changed . Now perhaps we can get
into a dialogue as to why we are worth more.
Perhaps I can point you towards a web site called www.thunderin.co.uk
and let you read that for a day or so and come back when you need
something clarified.
You have come up with localised rates and mentioned most jobs which
are not skilled or at best semiskilled.
We are now associate, technical and proffesional.
>A working man is a manual worker as in machinist,painter,office
>worker,driver,shop assistant,help line worker.electronics engineer, service
>worker,mechanic
Just to give you some idea I can operate a lathe, I can paint, I can
work in an office, I always have fixed my own cars and many of my
family etc I can do any of the others you name AND in my case I was a
qualified chef and worked as an electronics technicial immediately
before joining the fire service. (fortunate to fit your list I accept)
SO I have the ability and skills MANY of which come in at fires and
SSC's etc BUT LIKE YOU I AM TIED IN WITH MY PENSION although if what
they want comes to fruition even that is coming under attack.
>Then we have the white collar workers and Graduates who's salary ranges from
>£18.000 - £24.000 these are
>the people who have attended University for five years and have and
>overdraft of around £8000 to pay off
>and make light decisions of whether or not to turn your life support machine
Interesting we make LIFE threatening decisions that decide if you
reach that stage actually.......but I dont want to sound aggressive i
would rather debate the issues with you sensibly!
>off at 0400 in the morning or wait to tell your mother first at 0600 before
>they make their way home to bed ready for their next shift
Shall I tell you what I do after I have finished a 15 hour night shift
even if I have been out all night.......come home and look after my
wife.. I am unable to do part time work does that make me less
demonised.
Oh and why is it not ok for a FF to do the job of a car mechanic in
his spare time BUT its fine for the car mechanic to do the job of a FF
in his spare time?? I can never understand the logic in this??
>(I do not know if many of these repair cars or fit kitchens in their time
>off too tired maybe)
I know many people who fix cars in their weekends off. They have to to
make ends meet. And THEY are not even in the fire service.
>
>Oops off on a we rant there, we were discussing wages yes in the NE/West The
>wage for a working man really is about £5.10ph irrespective of the hours
>worked
Ah wages in the North west I see . Quite a different thing really
answer me one thing please......are fires in the North east/west less
hot than those in London??? I think you have a few questions answered
but check out Mikes site and then come back and feel free to ask away!
bye for now
Andy T
<the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
I seem to feel this address is familiar but gaget will let us know!
So you get the benefit of the doubt for now!
>
>What do you find to be lies then Andy T,
I will reply to the rest later but right now I need to get some
sleep..note the time please. BUT
I quote
"The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
£12.500 per year as of 2003"
end quote
nothing about in the North West or East.. Scotland or anywhere else
for that matter!
>
>I am reading job offers in the North East /West of England or Scotland
>
>Maybe employers in the South offer lots more but I am not a liar and only
>quote what I know I am not a liar and I resent the insinuation by you that I
>am
But you are now adding in different criterior now! What am I also
supposed to be a mind reader now :) I am already going to be a
decontamination expert for no extra money and no training but what the
hell............
perhaps if you were a little clearer we could give you a better reply?
Gadget
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Jake wrote:
>I am ex-service but did not think of the easy route to civvy street
I what life was that shapeshifting entity?
A few months ago you were telling us you were a fourteen year old
schoolboy.
Go find another profile this one's broke.
--
Gadget
to email me direct use;
gadget((at))bluewatch((dot))fsnet((dot))co((dot))uk
sorry about all the spamblockage!
Gadget
wrote:
>I am not a liar and only quote what I know I am not a liar and I resent
>the insinuation by you that I am
!!!!
Hmm, I'm convinced [strokes chin]...
Gadget
>• develop and maintain effective partnerships with a range of
>agencies in the public, private and voluntary sectors where these can
>deliver cost effective improvements in community safety,
>************************************************************************
>*
>Brilliant!! They have now dropped the word ‘fire’ and given us the
>all encompassing task of community safety. And, whilst we are expected
>to ‘give’ our time and learn new skills and competencies
<Snip>
This is the part where they will be able to make us into a third rate
ambulance service.
Gadget
>work are covered by the relevant fire service national role maps. These
>role maps reflect fire service responsibilities incorporated into local
>risk management plans in order to: • apply a risk-based approach to
>fire cover and to all its activities in deciding how best to use its
>resources,
>************************************************************************
>*
>The unpublished Government report into risk based fire cover concluded
>that massive investment was required throughout the UK fire service in
>order to meet the demands identified following detailed risk based
>reviews of fire cover. Why are we even considering reducing the size
>and ability of the UK fire service?
Because the Govt want to adopt cost benefit analysis to fire cover.
The risk they refer to, is not the risk to life [public and FS] like the
Pathfinder report, but the risk to the government's purse.
If cost benefit analysis is applied to fires, and the fire cover
deployed to tackle it; then decisions have to be made as to whether it
would be cheaper to provide cover [24/7] to deal with fires, or to pay
the costs of letting the fires burn.
Gadget
>The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
>£12.500 per year as of 2003
see Average gross weekly earnings: by area, April 2002,
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBASE/ssdataset.asp?vlnk=6243
Gadget
>On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Jake wrote:
>>I am ex-service but did not think of the easy route to civvy street
>
>I what life was that shapeshifting entity?
>A few months ago you were telling us you were a fourteen year old
>schoolboy.
I am always ready to wind my neck in,
given good evidence for me to do so.
It may be just an unfortunate coincidence that Jake here has the same
email profile as Chris Martin/Fireman Sam/Phillip Edwards/Dan
Dare/Norman Bates/Capt Nemo/Scott Townsend/Richard Baker [and more
recently Gay Lord Bottomley/Bolt Upright].
As I said back on 8 Jan 2003,
Look out for Mr Morph in his many guises he will no doubt be back soon,
best spotted by a good look at his headers. He will try to suck you in
by initially seeming reasonable, then go to town as the thread grows.
Jake
>given good evidence for me to do so.
>It may be just an unfortunate coincidence that Jake here >has the same
>email profile as Chris Martin/Fireman Sam/Phillip >Edwards/Dan
>Dare/Norman Bates/Capt Nemo/Scott >Townsend/Richard Baker [and more
>recently Gay Lord Bottomley/Bolt Upright].
You need to go back to header training school then
gadget :-)
This is only my fourth post ever to your group
I am off to read Andy T's recommended reading to
edumicate myself, catch you all later
Be safe Jake
Andy T
<the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>You need to go back to header training school then
>gadget :-)
>
>This is only my fourth post ever to your group
As jake maybe but some co-incidences are apparent. You will be very
aware I have ways of knowing than others may not be able to. Say no
more. But even if you do not wish to open up to who you are which is
you right would I be right in thinking I know who you are??
I have not even looked at headers or spoken to man who can either :)
>
>I am off to read Andy T's recommended reading to
>edumicate myself, catch you all later
If it is who I think it might be I hope you are doing well! I have had
no relies from you recently and was wondering if you can still use PC
ok..............if its not who I think it might be have a good read.
>
>Be safe Jake
Yes be safe jakebow! :)
chrishiggo
standared job
"Jake" <the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:NWRba.1936$lY3.17...@news-text.cableinet.net...
Jake
100% correct
>I have had
>no relies from you recently and was wondering if you >can still use PC ok
.
I have not had anything sent to reply to :-)
As for the PC use, I use WinXP , Flash up the narrator prog, set text to
500% and cause havoc
>ok..............if its not who I think it might be have a good >read
I will have a good read anyway thank-you Andy
>
>>Be safe Jake
>Yes be safe jakebow! :)
>Regards Andy T
jakebow lol
Regards Jake aka Jack McHammocklashing RO9
--
Nil Bastardus Carborundum
Mike Barnard
<the...@obnoxiousmailblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>I am ex-service but did not think of the easy route to >>civvy street
So am I. 2nd RTR, 1978. What regiment? When?
>I have no idea, but when I left the forces I did not think
>of joining another government service. I just wanted to be a civilian, and
>the fire service was not even a contender
I worked as a parcel driver, paper guillotine operator, trainee bus
mechanic and as a guard on the underground. Then I joined the Fire
Service in 1981. I recieved a wage I could live on, in London, and
found a job I enjoyed at last.
>I just took a job in civvy street and for the past twenty years just
>accepted the recommended government pay rise which varied around 4% per
>year till the last couple of years when it became around 1% or 2.5% as it
>is now
So, your a self confessed slave with no interest in improving your
lot. Whats the job? Street sweeper, or dishwasher?
>I had no option actually as the company said take it, leave it, or go. I
Strange, we keep getting told the same by the know nothings. But we
try to improve things, not sulk.
>had a mortgage and a family to keep so I just accepted it rather than
>unemployment and now I am stuck where I am, too old to quit for anything
>else and not old enough to retire on my £149 pw PENSION
You can ALWAYS try something else. Again, so we keep getting told.
>>>The average "WORKING MAN'S" wage is about
>>>£12.500 per year as of 2003
>>Complete and utter fabrication! If you insist on posting >lies please get
>your lies right!
>Please post some employment opportunities that would offer more for a
>working man as in
>Painter and decorator
Back in the late '90s my bank manager said "Is that all you take home?
The average painter and decorator takes more than that!"
>Motor mechanic
I know a guy who works as a mechanic from his house garage. Nice
house, nice car. Don't know his income, but it's not too bad thank
you very much.
>Office clerk
My ex wife (God bless her) works in a doctors surgery as a secretary /
receptionist. Don't know her current wage but a couple of years ago
it was about 17k and she took home nearly a grand.
>Shop assistant
Current girlfriend worked in sainsburys as a 'customer care
assistant'. In that little box where people go to complain. Part
time she took home £600+ a month, which is about 9k I think.
>Special needs assistant
Don't know one of these.
>Teachers, Nurses, and Para medics scientific service officers and SOCO have
Go to uk.community.ambulance and ask paramedic what their real take
home wage is.
>to have a University degreee now and I think you will find the salary is
>about £18500 rising to £22000 after five years fully qualified including
>shift allowances
"I think"...
>Read any local paper Situations Vacant page, and you will find most
>employment is offered at £5.10 per hour inclusive of shifts, unless you have
>a University degree when a salary is offered which is usually between
>£18.000 and £24.000 per annum
Yes, lots of jobs for shit money, but they are mostly jobs with
comparatively little responsability, not jobs where you often have
seconds to react to a possibly life threatening situation.
>What do you find to be lies then Andy T,
>
>I am reading job offers in the North East /West of England or Scotland
>
>Maybe employers in the South offer lots more but I am not a liar and only
>quote what I know I am not a liar and I resent the insinuation by you that I
>am
However, I will admit to being in the south.
--
www.thunderin.co.uk has an overview of how this started.
If it needs amending, please let me know.
(These comments are personal and in no way related to
my Employer or others who work with me for my Employer)
Mike Barnard
Ff
Blue Watch
Worthing Fire Station
West Sussex
"Time is too precious a thing to waste".
(Remove my TROUSERS spamblock to reply by email)
Jake
>www.thunderin.co.uk has an overview of how this >started.
>If it needs amending, please let me know.
Title TODAY
Para 5
The resulting changes to our working environment are tremendous. No longer
are we 'Manual Workers', but all of the authorities involved in this dispute
agree that we should be re-classed as "Technical & Professional" workers.
The average wage for this class of worker is I understand about £34,000,
much less than the wage we are asking for.
Shurley shum mistook. that last sentence?
Regards Jake
--
Nil Bastardus Carborundum
Gadget
>re-classed as "Technical & Professional" workers. The average wage for
>this class of worker is I understand about £34,000, much less than the
>wage we are asking for.
>Shurley shum mistook. that last sentence?
What mistake would that be? Ending a sentence with a preposition?
Or do you think the £34,000 average wage
for a "Technical & Professional" worker is askew?
Or do you think the £30,000 that the Labour Research Dept said we are
worth is _not_ much less than £34,000?
Useful reading
http://www.labourleftbriefing.org.uk/ff5.html
Mike Barnard
Lol... well spotted Jake, it's been there since I first wrote it up
and no-ones spotted it yet! Thanks.
--
www.thunderin.co.uk has an overview of how this started.
If it needs amending, please let me know.
(These comments are personal and in no way related to
David Kemper
"Andy T" <an...@westmidland-internet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dv617vsn9s10mo2e9...@4ax.com...
> As jake maybe but some co-incidences are apparent. You will be very
> aware I have ways of knowing than others may not be able to. Say no
> more. But even if you do not wish to open up to who you are which is
> you right would I be right in thinking I know who you are??
>
> I have not even looked at headers or spoken to man who can either :)
Andy, I think you've "Lost the Plot", IYSWIM. ;-)
--
David Kemper
Not a fan of loosing the plot
+----------------------+
| FIRE STATION |
| FOR SALE |
| Apply to J Prescott |
+--------+-+---------+
| |
| |
| |
| |
....\\|.|/....
Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with
talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
-President Calvin Coolidge
Andy T
>What mistake would that be? Ending a sentence with a preposition?
>
>Or do you think the £34,000 average wage
>for a "Technical & Professional" worker is askew?
He is right gadget in that its actually much MORE than we are asking!
NOT less :)
But never the less the facts speak for them selves with this latest
offer.