Pegasus Opera versus Sage Sovereign (Line 100)
Patrick Thody
last 8 years. We use all modules except payroll, bill of material, and
job costing. We have become increasingly frustrated with Sovereign
itself, Sage themselves, and dealer support, so we are seriously
contemplating on moving to Pegasus Opera for Windows. We have some
doubts over this as it is such a fundemental change for our company
which now cannot fuction without the accounts\business management system
running in "real time" ie instant access to stock and custoner records
etc.
Is there anyone out there who has experience of the two systems, and in
particular any of the snags or drawbacks of Pegasus Opera.
--
Patrick Thody
AngusNicol
In article <cA1AmCAj...@adtech.co.uk>, Patrick Thody <P...@adtech.co.uk>
writes:
My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of installations
in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
Angus Nicolson
Ken Ashcroft
it has additional functionality, but have not seen it. I think the
Opera has some useful features, but, as you rightly comment, it is not
a change to be undertaken lightly.
>We are a small company with 8 user network using Sage Sovereign for the
>last 8 years. We use all modules except payroll, bill of material, and
>job costing. We have become increasingly frustrated with Sovereign
>itself, Sage themselves, and dealer support, so we are seriously
>contemplating on moving to Pegasus Opera for Windows. We have some
>doubts over this as it is such a fundemental change for our company
>which now cannot fuction without the accounts\business management system
>running in "real time" ie instant access to stock and custoner records
>etc.
>
>Is there anyone out there who has experience of the two systems, and in
--
Ken Ashcroft
Dave
<angus...@aol.com> writes
>
Snipped article about Sage v's Opera
> My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of installations
>in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
>horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
>invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
>
>Angus Nicolson
Greetings one and all,
Opera is not for _small businesses_
The data structures are .dbf format, readable in excel for instance.
Personalised stationery is no problem if you get the toolkit module.
Report writing is as complicated as you want the report to be.
You should not let your dreadful experience cloud the judgement of
others.
And yes it's expensive. But you get what you pay for and if you take out
a support contract with your reseller and pay for the tuition and
training you will find that Opera beats Sage hands-down everytime.
Regards,
--
Dave
Patrick Thody
>
>>
>>We are a small company with 8 user network using Sage Sovereign for the
>>last 8 years. We use all modules except payroll, bill of material, and
>>job costing. We have become increasingly frustrated with Sovereign
>>itself, Sage themselves, and dealer support, so we are seriously
>>contemplating on moving to Pegasus Opera for Windows. We have some
>>doubts over this as it is such a fundemental change for our company
>>which now cannot fuction without the accounts\business management system
>>running in "real time" ie instant access to stock and custoner records
>>etc.
>>
>>Is there anyone out there who has experience of the two systems, and in
>
>My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of installations
>in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
>horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
>invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
>
>Angus Nicolson
Thanks Angus - This is what I have feared, although we get heavy discount as we
would be changing from Sovereign. Personalised outputs are very important as all
our stationary is now plain paper. We going to look at Scala on the
recommendations of close business friends in Sweden(!)
Thanks--
Patrick Thody
Patrick Thody
<g3...@g3msw.demon.co.uk> writes
>it has additional functionality, but have not seen it. I think the
>Opera has some useful features, but, as you rightly comment, it is not
>a change to be undertaken lightly.
>>last 8 years. We use all modules except payroll, bill of material, and
>>job costing. We have become increasingly frustrated with Sovereign
>>itself, Sage themselves, and dealer support, so we are seriously
>>contemplating on moving to Pegasus Opera for Windows. We have some
>>doubts over this as it is such a fundemental change for our company
>>which now cannot fuction without the accounts\business management system
>>running in "real time" ie instant access to stock and custoner records
>>etc.
>>
>>Is there anyone out there who has experience of the two systems, and in
>
We have been waiting for Windows version for over 2 years or more since it was
introduced to us at big presenation at Heathrow. We have no faith whatsoever in
Sage producing workable Sovereign upgrades - on past experience. I have never
met a user in 8 years who thinks Sovereign is great!
Patrick Thody
Patrick Thody
<Da...@ridyard-co.demon.co.uk> writes>Snipped article about Sage v's Opera
>
>> My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of
>installations
>>in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
>>horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
>>invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
>>
>>Angus Nicolson
>
>
>Opera is not for _small businesses_
>The data structures are .dbf format, readable in excel for instance.
>Personalised stationery is no problem if you get the toolkit module.
>Report writing is as complicated as you want the report to be.
>
>You should not let your dreadful experience cloud the judgement of
>others.
>
>And yes it's expensive. But you get what you pay for and if you take out
>a support contract with your reseller and pay for the tuition and
>training you will find that Opera beats Sage hands-down everytime.
>
>Regards,
Thanks Dave, We have Dummy Opera system to try, we also have Opera reseller we
trust and have even paid for training session, but we were looking for the snags
which no sales people ever mention. The cost is not important as it is VERY
important to get right.
PS What is a small company? We employ 16 people, have 2 factory sites, buy and
sell in different currencies and turnover £1.5 million. Are we very small,
small, or medium ?
PPS Connecting the computer our Scottish factory to our HQ in Gloucestershire
using DOS Sovereign program running under Win95 in Novell 4.1 aaagh! --
Patrick Thody
AngusNicol
In article <Avfw5NAk...@adtech.co.uk>, Patrick Thody <P...@adtech.co.uk>
writes:
From what you write, Opera is totally inappropriate on the ground of size and
complexity.
Your first priority is to ensure that program will run as you expect over a
network in terms of speed, security and printing at the remote site. Who is
going to take responsibility for wiring and maintaining the connections at both
ends? As an ocassional consultant it is normal to diagnose the problem as
being at the *other end*, and *not my problem guv* :-))
So, same firm giving support at both ends. What programs can they and do they
support? Get a visit to one of their other customers to see the actual speed
being achieved.
Are you going to be on line all day? Or batch updates over night? The later
may rule out some choices.
BT line? Leased line? ISDN? Do you know how much your phone bill will cost
for what you propose?
Could continue but won't!
Angus Nicolson
AngusNicol
In article <7evu1FAn...@adtech.co.uk>, Patrick Thody <P...@adtech.co.uk>
writes:
>
>Thanks Angus - This is what I have feared, although we get heavy discount as
>we
>would be changing from Sovereign. Personalised outputs are very important as
>all
>our stationary is now plain paper. We going to look at Scala on the
>recommendations of close business friends in Sweden(!)
>
>Thanks--
>Patrick Thody
I've never seen Scala in action. Let me know how it performs, please.
Angus Nicolson
Steve Lindley
>writes:
>
>>
>>We are a small company with 8 user network using Sage Sovereign for the
>>last 8 years. We use all modules except payroll, bill of material, and
>>job costing. We have become increasingly frustrated with Sovereign
>>itself, Sage themselves, and dealer support, so we are seriously
>>contemplating on moving to Pegasus Opera for Windows. We have some
>>doubts over this as it is such a fundemental change for our company
>>which now cannot fuction without the accounts\business management system
>>running in "real time" ie instant access to stock and custoner records
>>etc.
>>
>>Is there anyone out there who has experience of the two systems, and in
>
>My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of installations
>in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
>horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
>invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
>
>Angus Nicolson
August. Angus is absolutely correct, but perhaps he does not have
experience of Sovereign and therefore assumes that nothing can be worse
than Opera? WRONG! - Sovereign is simply disgusting. Opera is merely
dreadful.
Opera does not support local printers when workstation is running Novell
Client 32/Win 95 or Client 16/W3.11 - "Oh, we know about that - We can't
do anything - You'll have to stop using Client 32/16 if you want to use
local printers"
After setting up print server in accounts office so reports can be
produced :
When foreign currency statements option switched on in Sales Ledger, the
statements do not print remittance advice portion (in any currency).
When foreign currency statements switched off, remittance advice prints,
but foreign currency accounts print GBP amounts. No facility exists to
separate statement runs for different currencies. Multi-currency
statement printing is therefore unusable - "Yes you are right - No one
else has ever complained about this - nothing we can(will) do"
These, and other responses, together with our day to day problems, just
indicate that we are dealing with a "Cottage Industry" piece of
software.
We are also a small company (1.5M), but we need multi-currency. It just
hurts to pay so much money for a half-baked database application written
in Foxpro for Windows 2.6 which was abandoned virtually as soon as it
was launched several years ago. Clearly the only reason is to be able
to maintain the same data structures and virtually identical source code
as Opera for DOS which presumably was developed in Foxpro DOS 2.6.
Unfortunately, there appears to be no effective competition in the
multi-currency software market.
Steve Lindley
Lindair (Europe) Ltd Tel : +44-1264-771414
Andover Fax : +44-1264-771223
England http://www.lindair.co.uk
Patrick Thody
<st...@lindair.co.uk> writes
Steve thanks - will e-mail direct--
Patrick Thody
Daniel Clark
It is equivalent to Sage "85", but costs less than 2K for 10 users. Multi
currency and multi company as standard on all versions. Available in 40
countries.........
Visit ryba-macaulay.co.uk/rml/index.htm for details of how to download a
free copy
Daniel Clark
dcl...@ryba-macaulay.co.uk
AngusNicol wrote in message
<19981101151844...@ngol05.aol.com>...
>
>In article <Avfw5NAk...@adtech.co.uk>, Patrick Thody
<P...@adtech.co.uk>
>writes:
>
>>In article <GJt8NFAk...@ridyard-co.demon.co.uk>, Dave
>><Da...@ridyard-co.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In article <19981029143939...@ngol06.aol.com>, AngusNicol
>>><angus...@aol.com> writes
>>>>
>>>Snipped article about Sage v's Opera
>>>
>>>> My advice has got to be not to change to Opera. My experience of
>>>installations
>>>>in small businesses has been nothing but dreadful. Data structures are
>>>>horrendously complex; report writing is a nightmare; and personalised
>>>>invoice.statement output is difficult. Also it is very expensive.
>>>>
>>>>Angus Nicolson
>>>
Mark Stannard
I have followed this discussion with interest.
As an independent accounts program installer, supporter and trainer with 15
years experience of Pegasus & Sage products can I make a couple of points.
Opera is not "real time" on its management system, the nominal/general
ledger has to be batch updated at period end. Other modules are "real time"
Both systems are able to function over a modem/ISDN dialup though there are
speed restrictions and the potential problem of data corruption through line
loss. I regularly dial in over both of these to various clients sites
around the country to do remedial work.
The reports within Opera are fully configurable if you know what you are
doing. Training on not only the reporter module but also FoxPro syntax is
essential if you wish to use the module to its best advantage. The same can
also be said for Sage and its proprietary language.
If you are contemplating multi-currency and regularly deal with Europe there
is the question of the ECU.
Neither system at the moment as far as I am aware can handle triangulation
correctly nor can they produce a VAT report in sterling and have your base
currency in ECU, as per the current legislation. I am aware of only one
program that can so they are not alone and it will be available in future
releases I expect.
They both can handle the ECU as another currency.
There are a number of systems on the market fully windows 32 bit compatible
and multi-currency for the same price if not cheaper then either of these
systems.
If anyone would care to contact me, I would be happy to discuss their
requirements/problems in detail and provide them with an unbiased solution
to them.
Regards,
Mark Stannard
PM Consulting Services Ltd
http://www.pmconsultserv.co.uk
Tel :01227 752776
Fax:01227 750662
Mobile 07071 225069
E Mail ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk
AngusNicol
In article <722adm$ut7$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, "Mark Stannard"
<ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk> writes:
>Neither system at the moment as far as I am aware can handle triangulation
>correctly nor can they produce a VAT report in sterling and have your base
>currency in ECU, as per the current legislation. I am aware of only one
>program that can so they are not alone and it will be available in future
>releases I expect.
I saw Exchequer advertising full ECU compatibility so I assume that is whom you
are referring to.
Good to have an unbiased professional giving (free) advice ;-)
Angus Nicolson
Dave
Mark and all,
In article <722adm$ut7$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, Mark Stannard
<ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk> writes
>Gentleman,
>
>I have followed this discussion with interest.
>
>As an independent accounts program installer, supporter and trainer with 15
>years experience of Pegasus & Sage products can I make a couple of points.
>
>Opera is not "real time" on its management system, the nominal/general
>ledger has to be batch updated at period end. Other modules are "real time"
>
If your day books are transfered at the end of each posting session then
Opera is 'real time' as far as the nominal ledger is concerned. There is
no need to wait until period end to update.
Otherwise, agree with your assessment.
Regards,
--
Dave
Daniel Clark
As someone who has implemented Access and Pastel (as well as the above), it
always makes me laugh at the blind spots in the 1-5K market.
Pastel -
1 multi currency and multi company on all products - why pay 1'000's for
Sage 100 to get this simple functionality
2 Euro version. Yes, my understanding too is that Exchequer is the only
package to be "branded" to deal with VAT in described manner. However,
without a full euro strategy exercise driving the correct IT solution, , it
is not necessarily the correct product. Pastel has it's euro version out
this month.
As a euro consultant, the concept of "euro compatibilty" is a bit like "Y2K
compliant". It is probably better to use the phrase "ready". Each of the 11
"in" countries are still formulating plans. Each of the 4 "out" countries
are sticking to current practice.
3 updates - real time or batch - Pastel gives you the choice. Of course
multiple batch updates is as good as real time for most organisations
For more information on Pastel please contact off-line
Regards
Daniel Clark
Dave wrote in message ...
Mark Stannard
Dave wrote in message ...
>Opera is 'real time' as far as the nominal ledger is concerned. There is
>no need to wait until period end to update.
Yes but who does ? Even when they are trained that way.
>Otherwise, agree with your assessment.
Thanks :)
Mark
Mark Stannard
AngusNicol wrote in message
<19981108170218...@ngol05.aol.com>...
>
>In article <722adm$ut7$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, "Mark Stannard"
><ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk> writes:
>I saw Exchequer advertising full ECU compatibility so I assume that is whom
you
>are referring to.
I will mention no names, unbiased remember :)
>Good to have an unbiased professional giving (free) advice ;-)
Always happy to help if it is an easy question.. Otherwise my on site rates
are very reasonable :)
Regards,
Mark
PatThody
<ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk> writes
>Angus,
>
>
>AngusNicol wrote in message
><19981108170218...@ngol05.aol.com>...
>>
>>In article <722adm$ut7$1...@newsreader2.core.theplanet.net>, "Mark Stannard"
>><ma...@pmconsultserv.co.uk> writes:
>
>>I saw Exchequer advertising full ECU compatibility so I assume that is whom
>you
>>are referring to.
>
>
>I will mention no names, unbiased remember :)
>
>
>>Good to have an unbiased professional giving (free) advice ;-)
>
>
>Always happy to help if it is an easy question.. Otherwise my on site rates
>are very reasonable :)
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark
>
>
have deleted Opera from my list! (remember we are using Sage line 100 at
present). What we are looking for as a replacement for Sage is:
Modern 32 bit Win program.
Good sharp end - ie order processing, stock control, simple bill of
materials/manufacturing etc. (The rear end - the actual accountancy is
the easy bit (!))
True Multi currency based on Sterling.
Single company but with 2 profit centres.
Customisable reporting
About 7 concurrent users (but low actual data imput).
We have just looked at Scala 5, which appears to fit the bill, but price
of £15,000 for S/W and £10,000 for implementation seems a bit stiff.
Any further comments here or direct are very welcome - getting unbiased
info on accounts/business management S/W is just like getting pension
advice!
--
PatThody
AngusNicol
I would recommend TAS Books 2. But, it is still a DOS product, and will not be
Y2K compliant until next year. It does full SOP, POP and Assembly Stock. I
think it is truly wonderful.
Can I suggest that you buy it at UKP299 as an example of what you should
expect. If you don't sign the contract, you get 30 days Sale or Return, and 90
days unlimited testing (up to 1000+ transactions).
I have a smallish client with 3 sites with an Novell dial-up network and 6
departments who uses it for manufacturing pricing, Eurostat documentation and
commission tracking as well as full accounting tracking.
I would post this to the NG but I got shot down in flames for suggesting an
non-Y2K product previously!
I am sure there are other programmes which have the same functions, and maybe
execute them more neatly, but at the price it is a give away.
Angus Nicolson
Chartered Accountant in Public Practice
PS I should add that we use TAS heavily in our office and act as a reseller
becasue we like/love the product so much. Ask me nicely, and you'll get an
open ended testing period!
Mike RENALS
I have been reading your current thread with great interest, as we have been
also going through this identical process, however, our interest is not only for
our use, but to resell with our bespoke software.
We are a small company based in North Yorkshire, we have been established for
some seventeen years now. Our core business is writing software for small and
medium sized companies mainly to computerise the sales ledger side, as we have
found no to companies are alike, and so have vastly differing requirements.
Once our software has produced an invoice we than post the information into a
standard set of ledgers, like those from Sage, Pegasus, Access to name a few.
Some months ago we embarked on a project to standardise our accounting ledgers
onto one product, but found major draw backs with all the systems we looked at,
so we came to the conclusion that we had to either write our own, not a job we
really had the time to embark upon, or buy some all ready written ledgers which
we could modify.
To this end we have recently purchased source code for an American set of
ledgers, which are written in the same development language that we use. We now
feel we have a far stronger solution than ny of the shrink wrapped solutions on
offer today.
The programs we produce are all network ready, we have no muliti-user licensing
charges, all programs are 32 bit windows compliant, they are written in Clarion
which is owned by a company called Topspeed (www.topspeed.com).
If you, or anybody is interested in our services, please contact Dave on 01845
525528 for a informal chat.
Action Data Systems
Thirsk
North Yorkshire
Daniel Clark
AngusNicol wrote in message
<19981110194726...@ngol06.aol.com>...