HEEELLLP ! (V.bad brews)
A. Drinker
quitting !
I'm about to pour my 4th 40 pint brew (in the space of 6 weeks !) down the
toilet.
The brews, 3 different brands, have ended up the same. They've appeared to
ferment OK, taking between 4 days & just over a week ....... but then, just
as the bubbles are beginning to slow, a foul-smelling, musty, white film of
*mould* forms across the top.
The beer (?) under the surface LOOKS normal enough, but smells like it has
TCP in it ! ( for non-Brits. TCP is a kind of medical, anti-septic cream
......... smells a bit like *root-beer* ! ).
I seem to remember, some time ago, someone posting "beer tastes like
medicine", in alt.homebrewing.
Somebody answered that it was to do with the fermenting vessel not been
thoroughly rinsed enough, after sterilising.
Remembering that, after my first bad brew I used a DIFFERENT fermenting
bucket & went *overboard* with the rinsing. The problem occured AGAIN
........ & ANOTHER two times since ! I have now had only ONE *normal*
brew from the last five. (this after HUNDREDS of previously, successful
brews)
Something is going wrong ...... this CANNOT be just coincidence.
We have had a LARGER than usual number of vinegar-fly in the air, in the
last few months ....... but I ALWAYS make sure that the vessel lid is on
firmly.
Anybody out there got any ideas ? ........... PLEEEEAAASE?!!
Pouring all this beer away is bringing tears to my eyes ......... and
wallet.
Cheers, AB. hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net remove NOSPAM to reply
Keith Simmonds
"A. Drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:YBlz5.7427$6b2.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> I'm now, after four problem-free years of h'brewing, on the verge of
> quitting !
Bad news!
Throw out all your existing stocks of cleaner, rinser etc in case they
are contaminated. You must treat EVERYTHING, not just your fermenter
(lids, air locks, brushes, spoons, jugs, everything) with a strong
bleach solution, and allow this to remain in contact with everything
(and all surfaces) for at least an hour. Rinse with plenty of water,
and follow with a new lot of sodium metabisulphite solution.
Do you pitch your yeast into a starter prior to adding to the main
batch, is this container and method sterile? Have you added anything
to the room you normally ferment in? Are your thermometer and
hydrometer sterile when you use them. Can you borrow a new fermenting
bin to eliminate this item.
You don't say if you are a full masher or kit maker. Are you boiling
your wort, or can you boil the water used for the brew.
Don't give up, but go over the top with your cleaning and sterilising.
HTH
--
Keith,
Living and brewing in Cheltenham, U.K.
Take out a *girl* to reply
Bob Welch
>If you have mould growing over the surface of your beer it sounds as though
the brew is getting infected with something unpleasant, either a yeast or a
bacteria.
The big question is when is it getting infected, during brewing or
fermentation. Personally I would favour during fermentation. Have you had
any work done on the house? Any building work or other changes around you?
I would follow the advise to sterilise or change everything that moves. I
would do everything to minimise exposure to the atmosphere during
fermentation.
I would not give up quite yet.
Let us know how you get on.
A drinker
Bob Welch <wychwoo...@lineone.net> wrote in message
news:8qln4p$cta$1...@supernews.com...
> >If you have mould growing over the surface of your beer it sounds as
though
> the brew is getting infected with something unpleasant, either a yeast or
a
> bacteria.
> The big question is when is it getting infected, during brewing or
> fermentation. Personally I would favour during fermentation. Have you had
> any work done on the house? Any building work or other changes around you?
> I would follow the advise to sterilise or change everything that moves. I
> would do everything to minimise exposure to the atmosphere during
> fermentation.
>
No recent *changes* to the brewing conditions. That's why I feel I have to
go along with the only real, possible culprit ........ the tap water.
The white (foul smelling)*mould* has appeared on the surface of the 4 brews
(just as the fermentation appeared to be ending), all brewed in the last
month or so, despite 3 different brand kits (ergo different yeasts) being
used.
I always sterilise & rinse ALL my equipment with "Chempro SDP", a
recommended cleaner/steriliser for homebrewers, here in the UK.
I DID mention the unusually HIGH number of vinegar flies that recently seem
to be around, whenever I've got beer brewing/fermenting, as I'm not sure
whether or not to rule them out as the cause of the problem.
Two reasons make me doubt them. I always keep the fermenting bin lid
securely fixed ....... and I read somewhere previously that the only effect
that they can have (on contact with alcohol) is to turn it sour & *vinegary*
(hence the name).
Anyway, I have (in the last few hours) got another 2 kits started
........... in order to fill up the growing number of empty bottles that the
dumped brews should have now been occupying ! Fingers crossed !
Cheers, AB.
pls dnt spam me@hotmail.com.nospampls.bs.com Hans Von Richter
"A drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:jIuz5.9294$He3.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Dan Listermann
"A. Drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:YBlz5.7427$6b2.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> The brews, 3 different brands, have ended up the same. They've appeared
to
> ferment OK, taking between 4 days & just over a week ....... but then,
just
> as the bubbles are beginning to slow, a foul-smelling, musty, white film
of
> *mould* forms across the top.
>
It looks like you have a Brettanomyces infection that is producing a pelicle
( the white film .) I have good news and bad news. The good news is that
this doesn't effect flavor all that much and is necessary in some Belgian
beers. The bad news is that it is very difficult to get rid of once it has
established a foothold.
I would suggest that you replace all the rubber and plastic stuff in your
brewery and give the other things a long ( days ) soak in a high strength
chlorine solution.
Dan Listermann check out our new E-tail site at www.listermann.com.
Bob Welch
Vinegar flies do not make the beer go off. However the bacteria and yeasts
attached to them do. Winter is coming may be that will help.
Another point you do not (quite rightly) say where you live. But in some
parts of the UK the water supply is private ie owned by a private
individual. The purification of such water is not as strict as the public ie
water companies supply. So who supplies your water and have they had any
problems.
Your beer is becoming infected, you have an infection control problem.
Roel_ter_stege
"A. Drinker" wrote:
> I'm now, after four problem-free years of h'brewing, on the verge of
> quitting !
>
> I'm about to pour my 4th 40 pint brew (in the space of 6 weeks !) down the
> toilet.
>
> The brews, 3 different brands, have ended up the same. They've appeared to
> ferment OK, taking between 4 days & just over a week ....... but then, just
> as the bubbles are beginning to slow, a foul-smelling, musty, white film of
> *mould* forms across the top.
>
> The beer (?) under the surface LOOKS normal enough, but smells like it has
> TCP in it ! ( for non-Brits. TCP is a kind of medical, anti-septic cream
> ......... smells a bit like *root-beer* ! ).
>
> I seem to remember, some time ago, someone posting "beer tastes like
> medicine", in alt.homebrewing.
>
> Somebody answered that it was to do with the fermenting vessel not been
> thoroughly rinsed enough, after sterilising.
>
> Remembering that, after my first bad brew I used a DIFFERENT fermenting
> bucket & went *overboard* with the rinsing. The problem occured AGAIN
> ........ & ANOTHER two times since ! I have now had only ONE *normal*
> brew from the last five. (this after HUNDREDS of previously, successful
> brews)
>
> Something is going wrong ...... this CANNOT be just coincidence.
>
> We have had a LARGER than usual number of vinegar-fly in the air, in the
> last few months ....... but I ALWAYS make sure that the vessel lid is on
> firmly.
>
> Anybody out there got any ideas ? ........... PLEEEEAAASE?!!
>
> Pouring all this beer away is bringing tears to my eyes ......... and
> wallet.
>
> Cheers, AB. hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net remove NOSPAM to reply
I have here 25 liters with the same probleme and I thinck it's an infection
from outside. I have openened the container after fermentation and the %
alcohol was very low.
I am glad that I am not the only person in the world with this problem
Is it still possible to destilaat the "beer" to get pure alcohol ??
Roel
Greg Salyer
"A. Drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:YBlz5.7427$6b2.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
ky_dan
not, one time I had a bad batch and couldn't figure out how. It had
been boiled, cooled (with an immersion chiller in the boil for 15 min),
and straight into the carboys. Batch went bad as you describe. Next
batch when I went to check everything for cleanliness, damn if there
wasn't some white growth inside the pickup tube!! The pickup tube was
also boiled for a long time. My guess was that possible since air
could have been trapped inside the boil kettle, the boil temp. did not
reach critical mass to sanitize the inside tube and passed on the
infection. Maybe not. Haven't had any more bad brews.
Ky_dan
In article <39d0c...@news.chartertn.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob DeVivo
survive a boil. Those mold spores then cool and are able to start producing
mold again. If I remember correctly the article said that to kill the
spores, you need to autoclave or pressure cook the spores. Maybe a strong
chorine or iodine solution would do also; I'm not sure. My memory is
pretty fuzzy on the topic, but I'm certain I read somewhere that boiling
alone is not a high enough temp to destroy all the spores. Whish I could be
more specific-- maybe someone else can be.
-Bob DeVivo
"ky_dan" <ky_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8qqidd$2qv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
S.Jeffrey
Bob DeVivo wrote:
> Another thought... I've heard that mold spores (not the mold itself) can
> survive a boil. Those mold spores then cool and are able to start producing
> mold again. If I remember correctly the article said that to kill the
> spores, you need to autoclave or pressure cook the spores. Maybe a strong
> chorine or iodine solution would do also; I'm not sure. My memory is
> pretty fuzzy on the topic, but I'm certain I read somewhere that boiling
> alone is not a high enough temp to destroy all the spores. Whish I could be
> more specific-- maybe someone else can be.
>
> -Bob DeVivo
>
>
There are mold spores all over the place, once you get your vessels
clean/sanitized, keep them covered as much as possible. We use Al foil (Yeah
Reynolds Wrap) in the lab to do this all the time.
Spores--bacterial or mold are relatively heat and *alcohol* resistant. They
are not however, resistant to chlorine/bleach. I bleach my downstream vessels
and then rinse with boiled and still hot water. I have panicked in the past and
thrown out what was probably a perfectly good brew--I can check my brews in the
lab under a scope and on plates etc. (slinging bacteria is what I do for a
living). Since I adopted this prcedure of bleach/rinse/boiled water rinse I
haven't had anything that I would think twice about in the lab. Bleach and heat
are wonderful for sanitation (not neccessarily at the same time). It is
imporatant to disassemble your fittings/couplers and make sure they are CLEAN
first-- then hit them with the bleach and then rinse.
Good luck.
Roe
Neil Nokes
> are wonderful for sanitation (not neccessarily at the same time).
I keep reading "almost" references to this all the time, but no-one just
comes right out and says it.
Is your bleach water to be hot or cold or does it not mater?
S.Jeffrey
Neil Nokes wrote:
Well, I'm not going to answer you either. What is more important is contact
time--the longer in contact with the bleach the better for killing bugs. I
typically fill up my fermentors to the brim with bleach solution ( all you
need is enough so you can smell it, we use 10% in the lab when we're not
using 70% EtOH or iPOH, but that would be overkill I think since we are
doing a wipe down in the lab). I keep mine cool since heat helps dissipate
the hypochlorite, then rinse with the boiled and still hot water to get rid
of the bleach.
Roe
john.mennell
can't you find a cleanser/steriliser combined such as "Chempro"
that is available here in England?
A fellow homebrewer
Keith Simmonds <Kesim...@girlbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:8qlckb$anc$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
>
> "A. Drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
> news:YBlz5.7427$6b2.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > I'm now, after four problem-free years of h'brewing, on the verge of
> > quitting !
>
>
martin...@my-deja.com
glass carboy. To sanitize the carboy, i just rinse with bleach water,
then rinse with tap water, and put the carboy in a cold oven and bake it
for an hour at 230F. When it comes out i quickly cap it with some
alcohol soaked napkins. Also i believe in boiling all water that is used
in your beer, extract or not. I utilize a wart chiller so the lag time
between active yeast is diminished. Also to sanitize all equipment i use
idophor no rinse sanitizer. I bought a big plastic storage container
from my local K-Mart ($10.00), I fill it with tap water and add idophor
sanitizer untill a golden color of water is realized. The great thing
about using this tub is that it fits most of the "long" equipment, such
as racking canes, wine thiefs and such. After the brew day, i rinse all
equipment in hot water and place into the "sanitizing tub". The
sanitizer stays active in the tub for about a week or so.
If you are sanitizing everything properly (the first rule in beer
making), look at all other variables. Typically water, fermentation lag
time and so on. Personally i think your problem is the water. When i was
just starting out, the guy at the local homebrew shop told me to boil
all water, no matter what the extract/kit can said. Even though all
drinking water is treated with anti bacterial agents it still has to
travel for miles in underground pipes. The water contains enough agents
to treat it, but not the pipes. But like you said in your reply posts,
boiling that amount of water on your kitchen stove is a chore and a
bother to the wife. Think about investing in a propane kooker. The cost
of the kooker will be forgotten once you realize the usefulness. Or if
the kooker is out of the question, think about a filtration system for
your water. Some filtering systems remove smells, chlorine, all
percipitates, and bacteria.
Just a thought!
MK
Giznawz
"A. Drinker" <hashve...@NOSPAMvirgin.net> wrote:
> The brews, 3 different brands, have ended up the same. They've
appeared to
> ferment OK, taking between 4 days & just over a week ....... but
then, just
> as the bubbles are beginning to slow, a foul-smelling, musty, white
film of
> *mould* forms across the top.
Are you absolutely SURE its mold? Have you seen the fuzzies on top or
the sinkers underneath? Have you tasted it?
No matter how foul it looks and smells, your best bet (unless you are
100% sure it's mold) is to follow through with your brew. Bottle it,
age it and drink it. There are umpteen things that could cause bad
odor and films, many of which do not alter the flavor of the brew, or
at least will age out of it. Since it costs you nothing more than time
to bottle it and wait, it would benefit your check book if not your
taste buds to "follow through on your brew"
I recently had an oatmeal stout that had a wierd white film on top in
the carboy and again in the bottles, but I sweated it out and braved a
taste and found to my pleasent surprise that it tasted fantastic. I
attribute the film to protein in the brew since I skipped my protein
rest during the mash.
Good luck!
Giz
Dan Listermann
"Giznawz" <giz...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8r47o4$fd2> I recently
had an oatmeal stout that had a wierd white film on top in
> the carboy and again in the bottles, but I sweated it out and braved a
> taste and found to my pleasent surprise that it tasted fantastic. I
> attribute the film to protein in the brew since I skipped my protein
> rest during the mash.
>
I am willing to bet that the white film was a Brettanomyces pelicle and had
nothing to do with protein. There is good news and bad news about Brett.
The good news is that is mostly harmless and considered necessary in some
Belgian brews. The bad news is that it is difficult to get out of your
equipment.
Dan Listermann
Check out our new E-tail store at www.listermann.com
Phil
> Really are you folks still using bleach, ugghh!
> can't you find a cleanser/steriliser combined such as "Chempro"
> that is available here in England?
>
I use Tesco Value bleach. I also use Chempro SDP. I don't think there's
any logic behind which I use at the time. I just use what's to hand.
--
Cyclops
Marc Gaspard
Dan Listermann <d...@listermann.com> wrote in message
news:39d5e...@news2.one.net...
Dan,
I always thought the pellicle came from the pediococcus bacteria,
not the Brett yeast. hmmmm....have to do some checking...
Marc Gaspard
--
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."-Ben Franklin
Dan Listermann
"Marc Gaspard" <mgas...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:H09C5.22426$K46....@typhoon.kc.rr.com...> > I am willing to bet that the white film was a Brettanomyces pellicle and
> had
> > nothing to do with protein. There is good news and bad news about
Brett.
> > The good news is that is mostly harmless and considered necessary in
some
> > Belgian brews. The bad news is that it is difficult to get out of your
> > equipment.
> >
> > Dan Listermann
> >
> >
> > Check out our new E-tail store at www.listermann.com
> *******************************************************
> Dan,
> I always thought the pellicle came from the pediococcus bacteria,
> not the Brett yeast. hmmmm....have to do some checking...
>
> Marc Gaspard
So did I until I checked it out.
Dan Listermann
Check out our New E-Tail site at www.listermann.com
headbrewer
I had exactly the same problem after a few years of excellent results. I
fitted a "water Gem" water filter to my brewing water supply. I only use
this water for everything to do with my brew. It works brilliantly. I've had
no more TCP flavours, except..... once when I accidentally rinsed my
fermentation bucket with tap water, once when I used a really old & out of
date yeast, and once after the filter (which normally lasts about six
months) had been in for about a year without changing.
TCP is the term for Tetra Chloro Phosphates. It is generated when the
chlorine in the water reacts with the hops during the boil. Previous answers
to boil your water are valid, but you must boil it ALL for at least 15
minutes, otherwise it's pointless.
I also tried going down to the local supermarket and buying large bottles of
their cheapest spring water. This also worked every time, but adds to the
cost.
The film of "mouldy" stuff on top of your beer is nothing to do with the TCP
flavour, so unfortunately, you have two things wrong. I think that it is
actually the oils released from the hops. I have had it in brews before, and
it isn't nice, but it hasn't ruined the flavour. Give everything a good soak
in Chempro SDP for a few hours and thoroughly rinse out.
Realto B. Love
Hotter or colder kills the chlorine santitation properties of the bleach.
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 10:07:51 GMT, "Neil Nokes"
<nno...@xyz.att.net> wrote something similar to:
+>Bleach and heat
+>> are wonderful for sanitation (not neccessarily at the same time).
+>
+>
+>I keep reading "almost" references to this all the time, but no-one just
+>comes right out and says it.
+>Is your bleach water to be hot or cold or does it not mater?
+>
ar...@hpcvplnx.cv.hp.com
> The answer is: Use water at 70-90 degrees. This will sanitize anything.
> Hotter or colder kills the chlorine santitation properties of the bleach.
C or F? I hope you mean C.
I know that >90F does not supress chlorine, or else my hottub would be
a cesspit (and no, I am not inviting you over to check... ;-).
--arne
DISCLAIMER: These opinions and statements are those of the author and
do not represent any views or positions of the Hewlett-Packard Co.