Re: Article 01

[Zainor Nasrah Abdul Rahman]

Emm, what i meant on the spending is when banks encourage spending, people will tend to spend on something that unnecessary.

When spending with credit card, people will tend to spend more than what they afford.

I learn previously that Islam is not encourage people to borrow and live in debt. Is that true?

Our spirit will not reach Allah until our debt is settled.

What I understand is that, we should follow Islam, not the other way round. What I found in Islamic banks, Islam will follow finance when products of IFIs will be islamized while the objectives of IFIs is look the same with conventional.

This tafsir is taken from Ibnu Kathir.

Prohibiting Extravagance

Allah said,

[وَكُلُواْ وَاشْرَبُواْ]

(And eat and drink..). Al-Bukhari said that Ibn `Abbas said, "Eat what you wish and wear what you wish, as long as you avoid two things: extravagance and arrogance.'' Ibn Jarir said that Muhammad bin `Abdul-A`la narrated to us that Muhammad bin Thawr narrated to us from Ma`mar from Ibn Tawus from his father who said that Ibn `Abbas said, "Allah has allowed eating and drinking, as long as it does not contain extravagance or arrogance.'' This chain is Sahih. Imam Ahmad recorded that Al-Miqdam bin Ma`dikarib Al-Kindi said that he heard the Messenger of Allah saying,

«مَا مَلَأَ ابْنُ آدَمَ وِعَاءً شَرًّا مِنْ بَطْنِهِ بِحَسْبِ ابْنِ آدَمَ أَكَلَاتٍ يُقِمْنَ صُلْبَهُ فَإِنْ كَانَ فَاعِلًا لَا مَحَالَةَ فَثُلُثٌ طَعَامٌ وَثُلُثٌ شَرَابٌ وَثُلُثٌ لِنَفَسِه»

(The Son of Adam will not fill a pot worse for himself than his stomach. It is enough for the Son of Adam to eat a few bites that strengthens his spine. If he likes to have more, then let him fill a third with food, a third with drink and leave a third for his breathing.) An-Nasa'i and At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith, At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan'' or "Hasan Sahih'' according to another manuscript. `Ata' Al-Khurasani said that Ibn `Abbas commented on the Ayah,

[وكُلُواْ وَاشْرَبُواْ وَلاَ تُسْرِفُواْ إِنَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُسْرِفِينَ]

(And eat and drink but waste not by extravagance, certainly He (Allah) likes not the wasteful.) "With food and drink.'' Ibn Jarir commented on Allah's statement,

[إِنَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُسْرِفِينَ]

(Certainly He (Allah) likes not the wasteful.) "Allah the Exalted says that He does not like those who trespass the limits on an allowed matter or a prohibited matter, those who go to the extreme over what He has allowed, allow what He has prohibited, or prohibit what He has allowed. But, He likes that what He has allowed be considered as such (without extravagance) and what He has prohibited be considered as such. This is the justice that He has commanded.''

[قُلْ مَنْ حَرَّمَ زِينَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِى أَخْرَجَ لِعِبَادِهِ وَالْطَّيِّبَـتِ مِنَ الرِّزْقِ قُلْ هِى لِلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ فِى الْحَيَوةِ الدُّنْيَا خَالِصَةً يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ كَذَلِكَ نُفَصِّلُ الآيَـتِ لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ ]

(32. Say: "Who has forbidden the adornment with clothes given by Allah, which He has produced for His servants, and At-Tayyibat (good things) of sustenance'' Say: "They are, in the life of this world, for those who believe, (and) exclusively for them (believers) on the Day of Resurrection.'' Thus We explain the Ayat in detail for people who have knowledge. )

 

The normal Islamic banks are commercial entities which means their sole purpose of incorporation is to gain profit on behalf of their shareholders. Gaining profit is not prohibited in Islam. In fact those who think that gaining profit is unlawful may end up likening trading to riba. This act is highly condemned in Islam as it was stated again in Al Baqarah 275. The current Islamic bank is not a charity organisation. It is purely a business unit for all intends and purposes. They are not the place for the poor but instead they are the place for the rich people (who can afford to pay their loan) to get more liquidity (financing or loan) in order to be richer or wealthy. By doing that, it doesnt make the Islamic bank less Islamic from my point of view.

My interest is on personal loan. If people who seek personal loan is rich enough, they should not borrow since they are rich.

I thought borrowing is for the people who are in need.. That is why Allah ask us to give some time to the debtor if they are in difficulty to pay. Baqarah 280.

Extravagance. I personally think that personal loan have the element of extravagance and lead to unhealthy society.

I am not sure. I feel it's very heavy to think about this.

zainor

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 5:17:25 AM
Subject: Re: Article 01

Salam

Dear Zainor,

Please find my answers below (in italic):-

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 11:54 PM, Zainor Nasrah Abdul Rahman <zainor...@ymail.com> wrote:

Salam,

Just finish reading. I heard that we cannot gain more than 100% profit in selling.

The price is willing buyer or willing seller (means as long both parties agree), I never found any strong injunctions to limit any profit in a trading arrangement.

 Is that true? Why is it permissable to charge more if the sale in deferred term compare in cash price?

Taking into consideration of the credit risk (which may cause hardship to the seller) on deferred arrangement, the seller may charge more. The other consideration is that deferred payment can be deemed as a facility given to ease the hardship to the buyer (compared to purchase the item in cash). As such the facility given allows the seller to charge more in the selling price in a deferred arrangement.

 

In my humble opinion, personal loan itself is not that Islamic. And the advertisement itself encourage spending when they offer cash back on every amount spend using card credit/debit card. The latest, turn the spending into charity. The more u spend, the more u donate.

 

I tend to agree with you that a bank should not encourage public to spend exorbitantly, however you may want to draw the line between marketing activities and product structure. When a bank promote the public to spend, that is marketing and it has nothing to do with the product structure of personal loan. Yes I agree that current marketing strategies by most bank is very poor from Shariah/Islamic perspective and I dont know how to put more comment on that as it is not my area. However I do believe strongly that the current practice of personal loan using the commodity murabahah is shariah compliant.  

 

Dont know. This is seem not a right action because the bank are encouraging public to spend.

Amar maaruf nahi munkar.

I am not sure what do you meant by your statement above. Are you saying that spending is munkar? I thought spending is infaq (nafqah) and it is highly recommended in Islam. Imagine a country that all of its population only save but dont spend, what would happen to the economy? It will collapse; so does that mean now that saving is an act of evil? In this context you may want to refer to surah al A'raf 31 where it is clearly showing that only the act of extremism is prohibited. 

 Bank should promotes Islamic values in all their offerings not only profit seeking entities and escape by doing CSR and pay zakat. Islamic banks should be a pious muslim, not only muslim in the identity card.

Because it use the banner of Islam.

I agree with you that an Islamic bank should promote Islamic value. Seeking profit in this world is also a "highly" recommended value in Islam. For this you can refer to surah Al Baqarah 275. So once again I am afraid I am missing your point here. An Islamic Bank is an entity, usually by the virtue of the incorporation of a company. As such it is not a human and has no religion.The normal Islamic banks are commercial entities which means their sole purpose of incorporation is to gain profit on behalf of their shareholders. Gaining profit is not prohibited in Islam. In fact those who think that gaining profit is unlawful may end up likening trading to riba. This act is highly condemned in Islam as it was stated again in Al Baqarah 275. The current Islamic bank is not a charity organisation. It is purely a business unit for all intends and purposes. They are not the place for the poor but instead they are the place for the rich people (who can afford to pay their loan) to get more liquidity (financing or loan) in order to be richer or wealthy. By doing that, it doesnt make the Islamic bank less Islamic from my point of view.

 

 

With Warm Regards,
Zainor Nasrah binti Abdul Rahman
Universiti Teknologi MARA (UiTM) Shah Alam
Master in Accountancy (by Research)
+6013 998 0486

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 11:08:42 PM
Subject: Article 01

Salam

Dear All,

Include here is my article that will appear in Smart Investors Magazine soon. Eventhough the version that will appear for public viewing is about 1000 words (as per the magazine requirement) . I like to share with you the full length version that is about 4000 words. The article focuses mainly on commodity murabahah financing arrangement but it also touches on few major financing contracts in Islamic finance. Enjoy your reading!

Thanks

Razi

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

Salam,

Dear Zainor,

Yes you are right, Islam discourage living in debt. At the same time Islam encourage people to improve his/her life through means that are permissible. 

The human behavior of spending is always bad with or without banking institution. Bank may help to make it worst. However, if we look from a different perspective banking product can be used as a good facility to improve your life. 

Good or bad is very much depending on how smart you manage your money and spending habit. I seriously feel that it got nothing to do with banking products.

Salam

[maisarah mustapa]

salam to all...

i have e proposal here...

as we planned earlier, we will have module 4 class session 1 diz sunday rite?

so, my proposl is that i would like to suggest can we postpone diz week clas to next week on 12 june 2011 which is still on Sunday... this is because i need to go to Perlis diz friday(3june) - monday(6 june)...

moreover, we haven't taken the module 3 exam yet... so, it would be better for us to settle one at a time...

this is only a suggestion and i really hope co-operation from all as i really really love to join the class but will not able to make it this sunday...

Your early reply is highly appreciated..

sorry and thank you!

with regard,
Maisarah Haji Mustapa
013 220 9297

[nazlin...@yahoo.com]

I don't mind..but you've to ask Mr Razi 1st whether he is free on the date that you've suggested..;)
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

OK... 12hb ( a week afta) I am free.... but you all bincang dulu
whether nak postpone or not and let me know latest by thrusday 12pm
(sharp)... earlier better...

Thanks

[Zainor Nasrah Abdul Rahman]

I am agree to postpone..
 

With Warm Regards,
Zainor Nasrah binti Abdul Rahman

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 3:50:14 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[nan salwanie]

i have no problem with that...Agreed!

[afiqah_...@yahoo.com]

Hi all. As u all know, me and Ida will having Acca exam starting 13 June which is on Monday until Wednesday. I do hope u guys can consider it. Maybe postpone to another week?

Sent from my iPhone

[maisarah mustapa]

another week tu mmg we have class for module 4 but session 2 la..

--- On Mon, 5/30/11, afiqah_...@yahoo.com <afiqah_...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[ida nazrin]

Yup, seriously need you guys to consider doing the class on another date.

Me and afiqah still need to sit for our ACCA exam on 13th to 15th of June.

please pretty please 

kind regards, 

Ida Nazrin

---

From: maisarah mustapa <sarah...@yahoo.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 4:28:01 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[Nabila Roslan]

Salam,

It might be a bit difficult for us to have class on a date which each & every of us can attend. its great if everyone can attend rite? but kinda not possible coz some people have this commitment whilst some others have that commitment on different dates. so can we just make it on any date which majority can attend? btw, insyaAllah i can make it on any dates (as for now). anyways, this is just a suggestion after all...tiada paksaan :)

Warmest regards,
NABILA ROSLAN

[Norainzurni A.Bakar]

mai, ain x kisah..hehe..tp klu nk buat 12hb ad org exam plak ari isnin 13, tp 12hb tu ok da bg ak..

---

From: maisarah mustapa <sarah...@yahoo.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[nurul hidayah]

Assalamualaikum, Agreed with nabila roslan... With Regards, NURUL HIDAYAH ZAWAWI --- On Mon, 30/5/11, Nabila Roslan <nabilar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ali myda]

assalamualaikum...

 

yes,agree with nabila roslan...but,hopefully others will consider the important reason from another for cannot coming on the date suggested..tq...^_^

[ida nazrin]

May i suggest some options which we all could agreed on?

The options are:

1. continued with the 5th June class (but it will be unfair for maisarah)

2. do module 4 class on 19th June for the whole chapters?

3. or do module 4-part 1 on 19th and part 2 on 26th June?

If others have any suggestion or rejection on the options, i hope you guys could come out with something.

thank you
 

Best regard,

Ida Nazrin

---

From: ali myda <norsaadat...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 9:49:14 AM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[maisarah mustapa]

Hye....   26th june will be too late as we need to finish all of the modules toward the end of june... btw, atiqah will also not able to make it this sunday as she is on her way to korea now.. she will only be coming back nest tuesday...   as i said earlier, this is only a proposal and as nabila said, yes, everyone has their own commitment  which will not going to fall at the same exact date... i am totally agree with that..   if all of u willing to proceed this sunday,sure...no problems with me... it is only me and atiqah will not able to make it this sunday.. others pun okay kan? the absense of 2 of us wont stop the class.. hehe... kami x la significant mane pun... hehehe   i just making a suggestion here sbb i didnt realise that some got exam next day... sory!   so, any which will do.. =)   thank you!   regards, Maisarah   --- On Mon, 5/30/11, ida nazrin <idan...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[nan salwanie]

I think just proceed our class on this Sunday as planned if majority of us can attend.

[ida nazrin]

agreed to proceed the class on this sunday too :D

>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* ali myda <norsaadat...@gmail.com>
>> *To:* uitmci...@googlegroups.com
>> *Sent:* Tue, May 31, 2011 9:49:14 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Article 01

>>
>> assalamualaikum...
>>
>> yes,agree with nabila roslan...but,hopefully others will consider the
>> important reason from another for cannot coming on the date
>> suggested..tq...^_^
>>

>> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 9:04 AM, nurul hidayah <hidayah...@yahoo.com<http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hidayah...@yahoo.com>

>> > wrote:
>>
>> Assalamualaikum,
>>
>> Agreed with nabila roslan...
>>
>> With Regards,
>> NURUL HIDAYAH ZAWAWI
>>
>>

>> --- On *Mon, 30/5/11, Nabila Roslan <nabilar...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nabilar...@gmail.com>
>> >* wrote:

>>
>>
>> From: Nabila Roslan <nabilar...@gmail.com<http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nabilar...@gmail.com>>
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: Article 01

>> To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://us.mc1254.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>

>> Received: Monday, 30 May, 2011, 9:57 AM
>>
>>
>> Salam,
>>
>> It might be a bit difficult for us to have class on a date which each &
>> every of us can attend. its great if everyone can attend rite? but kinda not
>> possible coz some people have this commitment whilst some others have that
>> commitment on different dates. so can we just make it on any date which
>> majority can attend? btw, insyaAllah i can make it on any dates (as for
>> now). anyways, this is just a suggestion after all...tiada paksaan :)
>>
>> Warmest regards,
>> NABILA ROSLAN
>>
>>
>>

>> On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 5:20 PM, ida nazrin <idan...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=idan...@yahoo.com>

>> > wrote:
>>
>> Yup, seriously need you guys to consider doing the class on another
>> date.
>> Me and afiqah still need to sit for our ACCA exam on 13th to 15th of June.
>>
>> please pretty please
>>

>> kind regards,
>> Ida Nazrin
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* maisarah mustapa <sarah...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=sarah...@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> *To:* uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>
>> *Sent:* Mon, May 30, 2011 4:28:01 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Article 01

>>
>> another week tu mmg we have class for module 4 but session 2 la..
>>
>>
>>

>> --- On Mon, 5/30/11, afiqah_...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=afiqah_...@yahoo.com><
>> afiqah_...@yahoo.com <http://mc/compose?to=afiqah_...@yahoo.com>>
>> wrote:

>>
>> > From: afiqah_...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=afiqah_...@yahoo.com><
>> afiqah_...@yahoo.com <http://mc/compose?to=afiqah_...@yahoo.com>>
>> > Subject: Re: Article 01

>> > To: "uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>"
>> <uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>
>> >
>> > Cc: "uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>"
>> <uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>

>> >
>> > Date: Monday, May 30, 2011, 2:56 AM
>> > Hi all. As u all know, me and Ida
>> > will having Acca exam starting 13 June which is on Monday
>> > until Wednesday. I do hope u guys can consider it.
>> > Maybe postpone to another week?
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > On May 30, 2011, at 15:50, razi pahlavi abdul aziz <

>> rpabd...@gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=rpabd...@gmail.com>>

>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > OK... 12hb ( a week afta) I am free.... but you all
>> > bincang dulu
>> > > whether nak postpone or not and let me know latest by
>> > thrusday 12pm
>> > > (sharp)... earlier better...
>> > >
>> > > Thanks
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >

>> > > On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 1:58 PM, <nazlin...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=nazlin...@yahoo.com>

>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > >> I don't mind..but you've to ask Mr Razi 1st
>> > whether he is free on the date that you've suggested..;)
>> > >> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device via
>> > Vodafone-Celcom Mobile.
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----

>> > >> From: maisarah mustapa <sarah...@yahoo.com<http://mc/compose?to=sarah...@yahoo.com>
>> >
>> > >> Sender: uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>

>> > >> Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 22:47:03

>> > >> To: <uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>
>> >
>> > >> Reply-To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com<http://mc/compose?to=uitmci...@googlegroups.com>

[Norainzurni A.Bakar]

i'm also agreed to just proceed as scheduled earlier that is this sunday and 19th..to postpone also i don't have any problem but i hope all members can agree to one solution..

---

From: ida nazrin <idan...@yahoo.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

Guys.. Can we make it on saturday instead?

--
Sent from my mobile device

[maisarah mustapa]

which saturday? this or next week? --- On Tue, 5/31/11, razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com> wrote:

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

This sat

[Norainzurni A.Bakar]

this saturday?? can not..kenduri rumah sedara..

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>

To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01

[maisarah mustapa]

oh, i thought 18june... hehe... for, saturday still cannot but if majority want to proceed, i have no right to object... hehehe --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Norainzurni A.Bakar <ainz...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[nan salwanie]

im free on Saturday..Sunday as well..

--

Regards,

 

Nan Salwanie

[mida ali]

i'm sorry sir,my brother's wedding fall on this saturday,but if others want to proceed,it's ok..^_^

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

Nemind... We stick to sunday.. Tot nak bawak my kids tengok kongfuuu
pandaaaaaaaaa...

On 31/05/2011, mida ali <norsaadat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i'm sorry sir,my brother's wedding fall on this saturday,but if others
> want to proceed,it's ok..^_^
>
> On 31 May 2011, at 17:57, nan salwanie <nansa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> im free on Saturday..Sunday as well..
>> On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 5:38 PM, maisarah mustapa <sarah...@yahoo.com
>> > wrote:
>> oh, i thought 18june... hehe... for, saturday still cannot but if
>> majority want to proceed, i have no right to object... hehehe
>>
>> --- On Tue, 5/31/11, Norainzurni A.Bakar <ainz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Norainzurni A.Bakar <ainz...@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: Article 01
>> To: "uitmci...@googlegroups.com" <uitmci...@googlegroups.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, May 31, 2011, 2:21 AM
>>
>>
>> this saturday?? can not..kenduri rumah sedara..
>>

[Nabila Roslan]

alahai kesiannya. bring them on saturday la. xpun sunday after class pun sempat. hehehe.

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

heh heh heh.... yep dunt worries.. always have time for movie with
them... ni baru lepaih bawak tengok POTC 3D... perghhhh best

[azera Mohd Nor]

i am ok with any date set for our class... ^_^...

---

From: Nabila Roslan <nabilar...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 31 May 2011 22:01:52
Subject: Re: Article 01

[nan salwanie]

so..our class is on sunday la kan..??i need to tell pn.Adora if this is the final decision because she need our conformation by today.

--

Regards,

 

Nan Salwanie

[azera Mohd Nor]

mungkin.... if no other objection, proceed with the original date, this sunday..

---

From: nan salwanie <nansa...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011 11:56:30
Subject: Re: Article 01

[razi pahlavi abdul aziz]

you all dah sit for the 3rd module test ke belum??????

[azera Mohd Nor]

saya belum amik test modul3 lg....
-azera-

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, 1 June 2011 13:44:20
Subject: Re: Article 01

[mida ali]

ade yg dah ambik test utk module 3 ke??hehe..

[Norainzurni A.Bakar]

saya belum..chapter 6 x abis bce lg..hehe..

---

From: razi pahlavi abdul aziz <rpabd...@gmail.com>
To: uitmci...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Article 01