Gotek as 1581 "mechanism" vs. dedicated uIEC-SD/SD2IEC device

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Eric Christopherson

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Apr 27, 2016, 9:50:26 AM4/27/16
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I wonder if there is anyone out there who could tell me what practical differences would result from using a Gotek-type flash-memory-based floppy emulator in place of the C1581's mechanism, vs. using the uIEC-SD or similar.

I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case, or if Commodore DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on a microcontroller. I understand that you wouldn't get any of the directory-changing commands et al. from the SD2IEC firmware.

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Chris Syntichakis

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Apr 27, 2016, 10:12:44 AM4/27/16
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even then the 1581 is different beast than 1541, so no profit IMHO

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silv...@wfmh.org.pl

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Apr 27, 2016, 11:02:13 AM4/27/16
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> On 2016-04-27, at 15:50, Eric Christopherson <echrist...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if there is anyone out there who could tell me what practical differences would result from using a Gotek-type flash-memory-based floppy emulator in place of the C1581's mechanism, vs. using the uIEC-SD or similar.

AFAIR there was very little software written especially for the 1581 so the software support for SD2IEC is probably even more extensive today than it is for 1581.

> I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case,

Possibly. If someone writes firmware supporting d81 format that is.

> or if Commodore DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on a microcontroller.

A protocol is a protocol. Who/what implements it is mostly irrelevant.

> I understand that you wouldn't get any of the directory-changing commands et al. from the SD2IEC firmware.

1581 has its own kind of directory changing commands instead.

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SD!

Eric Christopherson

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Apr 28, 2016, 11:19:04 AM4/28/16
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On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:02 AM, <silv...@wfmh.org.pl> wrote:

> On 2016-04-27, at 15:50, Eric Christopherson <echrist...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if there is anyone out there who could tell me what practical differences would result from using a Gotek-type flash-memory-based floppy emulator in place of the C1581's mechanism, vs. using the uIEC-SD or similar.

AFAIR there was very little software written especially for the 1581 so the software support for SD2IEC is probably even more extensive today than it is for 1581.

Right, I didn't have 1581-specific software in mind; was just thinking of other ways of operating with flash media in a way that would simply emulate floppies.
 

> I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case,

Possibly. If someone writes firmware supporting d81 format that is.

Oh, I wasn't even thinking of the format... from what I understand, Gotek devices use some proprietary format, which would be bad for archiving and interoperability.

I'm pretty sure I would have to treat the device as a flat collection of floppy images, rather than like a hard drive with nested directories. (Even 1581 directories, mentioned below, are partition-like.)
 

> or if Commodore DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on a microcontroller.

A protocol is a protocol. Who/what implements it is mostly irrelevant.

I would beg to disagree! While the adherence to one protocol vs. another might not matter in this context, obviously in practice a protocol is useless if you don't have *something* that implements it.
 

> I understand that you wouldn't get any of the directory-changing commands et al. from the SD2IEC firmware.

1581 has its own kind of directory changing commands instead.


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        Eric Christopherson

silv...@wfmh.org.pl

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Apr 28, 2016, 11:53:09 AM4/28/16
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> On 2016-04-28, at 17:18, Eric Christopherson <echrist...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Right, I didn't have 1581-specific software in mind; was just thinking of other ways of operating with flash media in a way that would simply emulate floppies.

Right. That's what the Goteks are for. 1541U does it damned well though.

> > I don't know if the thing would even work in a 1581 case,
>
> Possibly. If someone writes firmware supporting d81 format that is.
>
> Oh, I wasn't even thinking of the format... from what I understand, Gotek devices use some proprietary format, which would be bad for archiving and interoperability.

I don't know what Gotek uses _originally_ but I'd be surprised if they chose to use some kind of obscure format. Who knows. For our use however the Amiga targeted firmware operates on the disk images (called ADFs). Something similar would have to be done in order to operate on D81s. Should be relatively easy for the author of ADF support. Less easy for everyone else ;-)

> I'm pretty sure I would have to treat the device as a flat collection of floppy images, rather than like a hard drive with nested directories. (Even 1581 directories, mentioned below, are partition-like.)

Gotek is a floppy emulator. You select a floppy image and that image presents itself to the system as real floppy with respective filesystem through real floppy-drive-alike hardware interface. In the context we talk about you can only use it as much as you would use any real floppy. since we talk 1581, you would only use it in the same way you'd use a 1581 floppy.

> > or if Commodore DOS or JiffyDOS would work with it; but if so, I wonder if the DOS would work slightly more like the real thing, because it would be actual C=/JiffyDOS running on an actual 6502, instead of something new running on a microcontroller.
>
> A protocol is a protocol. Who/what implements it is mostly irrelevant.
>
> I would beg to disagree! While the adherence to one protocol vs. another might not matter in this context, obviously in practice a protocol is useless if you don't have *something* that implements it.

Something - yes. But I don't care what kind of a CPU/MCU implements it. As long as I don't try to program it that is. If you had something very 1581 specific in mind, something that needs to run /inside/ the drive - then it would matter and putting a Gotek (with appropriate firmware) inside the 1581 could give you the ability to use this very specific software. Otherwise - who cares what processor runs on the other side of the cable?

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