[ADMIN] [ANNOUNCE] This list
Alan Pope
the sounder list down.
When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
- it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
reminder nearer the time.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
It can of course also be discussed on this list, and at the meeting
I'll do my best to objectively pull together opinions and proposals
from those not present.
Thanks,
Al.
--
sounder mailing list
sou...@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder
David Sanders
> I've added an proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council agenda to shut
> the sounder list down.
>
> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
It depends on what you mean by "isn't helpful to the project". As far
as I'm concerned this still *is* the place where Ubuntu features and
gripes are discussed and general community chit-chat happens. We're
all Ubuntu users on this list - and most of us probably fairly
experienced users (or IT professionals) who don't want to read a "How
do I install Photoshop on my Ubuntu KTHXBYE" list. So, naturally as
our systems are happily running Ubuntu on a daily basis we don't need
to discuss the ins and outs of the software. You'll note that most
posts are at least IT and Ubuntu related (occasional political and
historical diatribes notwithstanding). So, some of it goes off-topic -
so what? This is a list of human beings discussing things, arguments
are bound to happen.
If you pull this list, you'll have made the Ubuntu eco-system just
that little bit less interesting. I, for one, think of Sounder as the
real water-cooler of Ubuntu and would be sad to see it go.
David Gerard
> I've added an proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council agenda to shut
> the sounder list down.
I can't help but think this is because your marketing snideness here:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016111.html
was called out:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016113.html
- d.
Nathan Bahn
[...] You'll note that most
posts are at least IT and Ubuntu related (occasional political and
historical diatribes notwithstanding). So, some of it goes off-topic -
so what? This is a list of human beings discussing things, arguments
are bound to happen.
If you pull this list, you'll have made the Ubuntu eco-system just
that little bit less interesting. I, for one, think of Sounder as the
real water-cooler of Ubuntu and would be sad to see it go.
For whatever it MAY be worth, I concur.
--N.B.
--
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html & http://www.libreoffice.org/ (Nathan Bahn)
David Sanders
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016111.html
> was called out:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016113.html
It's the old, classic failure of revolutions - Ubuntu is starting to
resemble the Bug No 1 problem that made it happen in the first place.
Liam Proven
> the sounder list down.
>
> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
>
> If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
> turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
>
> The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
> and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
> reminder nearer the time.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
> It can of course also be discussed on this list, and at the meeting
> I'll do my best to objectively pull together opinions and proposals
> from those not present.
Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
I want it closed."
--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lpr...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpr...@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lpr...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508
Avi Greenbury
> Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
> I want it closed."
Not really. This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are
likely to expect, going on the mailman description. If Canonical wanted
to be hosting a mailing list dedicated to religious and political
discussion, they'd do so and describe it as such.
ubuntu-users is supposed to be for technical support; this list is
supposed to be where the conversations that are not strictly technical
support, but still ubuntu-related in some way, end up.
Avi.
Liam Proven
> Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
>> I want it closed."
>
> Not really. This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are
> likely to expect, going on the mailman description. If Canonical wanted to
> be hosting a mailing list dedicated to religious and political discussion,
> they'd do so and describe it as such.
>
> ubuntu-users is supposed to be for technical support; this list is supposed
> to be where the conversations that are not strictly technical support, but
> still ubuntu-related in some way, end up.
If they want a focussed list, then it needs to be moderated. If it's
unmoderated, wibble happens. Personally, I do not see wibble to be a
problem.
--
Liam Proven • Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lpr...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpr...@gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • MSN: lpr...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508
--
Samuel Thurston
> Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
>> I want it closed."
>
> Not really. This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are
> likely to expect, going on the mailman description. If Canonical wanted to
> be hosting a mailing list dedicated to religious and political discussion,
> they'd do so and describe it as such.
>
> ubuntu-users is supposed to be for technical support; this list is supposed
> to be where the conversations that are not strictly technical support, but
> still ubuntu-related in some way, end up.
>
Most of the threads start out as non-technical semi-ubuntu-related and
devolve. I think this owes a lot to the fact that many of the
non-technical issues surrounding Ubuntu are philosophical or
political. It also owes a lot that holy wars threads are often
instructed to "take it to sounder."
The issue of closing sounder for this very reason has been brought up
no less than once per year since it started. I agree with liam that
if you want focus it's probably got to be moderated.
If you don't personally like the content of an unmoderated list, leave
the list, or try to get it moderated. Advocating shutting down a
community service because you disapprove of how it's being used is
just odd...
J
> On 8 April 2011 13:11, Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
>> Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
>>> I want it closed."
>>
>> Not really. This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are
>> likely to expect, going on the mailman description. If Canonical wanted to
>> be hosting a mailing list dedicated to religious and political discussion,
>> they'd do so and describe it as such.
>>
>> ubuntu-users is supposed to be for technical support; this list is supposed
>> to be where the conversations that are not strictly technical support, but
>> still ubuntu-related in some way, end up.
>
> If they want a focussed list, then it needs to be moderated. If it's
> unmoderated, wibble happens. Personally, I do not see wibble to be a
> problem.
+1
And to add to that, I think that removing Sounder would simply cause
these types of discussions to start happening in other lists more
frequently. I sit on a few of them, but not all, so perhaps my view
is limited, but in general, the other lists seem to *usually* stay on
topic and when OT things popup, they are *usually* quickly moved with
a polite "This doesn't belong here, move it to Sounder and discuss to
your heart's content".
So Sounder, while maybe straying WIDELY off topic from time to time,
serves well as a grounding rod that keeps the noise lower on the
other, more topical lists.
Besides, this is the first REAL OT discussion I've seen in a while.
To be honest, rather than being the child who takes his ball and runs
home when the other kids don't play by the rules, the ones who
egregiously break the rules should be put in moderation until they
calm down.
Personally, I find the OT discussions on Sounder to be rather
entertaining, and often fascinating, and a welcome diversion from the
very specific discussions on the rest of the Ubuntu lists.
Cheers,
Jeff
Christopher Chan
> Lord, how hard is it to unsubscribe yourself if you don't like what you
> see? If the list is being utilized, it makes no sense to shut it down.
> Just another $0.02 worth - U.S. currency.
>
This looks like another example of community and "community". Although
members of sounder are users of Ubuntu, they are not considered part of
the "community" and therefore not deserving of a list that meets their
needs. On IRC, there is an offtopic channel but there should not be an
offtopic list?
Amedee Van Gasse
> I've added an proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council agenda to shut
> the sounder list down.
>
> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
>
> If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
> turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
>
> The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
> and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
> reminder nearer the time.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
> It can of course also be discussed on this list, and at the meeting
> I'll do my best to objectively pull together opinions and proposals
> from those not present.
+1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
Gilles Gravier
And ubuntu-whatever ... but that's already there, and it's called
"sounder". :)
Gilles.
Mike Basinger
> +1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
> ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
>
>
There is a place for that, it is call "The rest of the Internet" :).
Cheers,
Mike
--
Mike Basinger
mike.b...@ubuntu.com
David Sanders
>> ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
>>
>>
> There is a place for that, it is call "The rest of the Internet" :).
from a lot of posts on Sounder, there is very little that all those
who post regularly have in common, except .. Ubuntu.
Now if that isn't close to the spirit of both ubuntu and Ubuntu then I
don't know what is.
Erik Pomerantz
Hello,
I haven't been saying a whole lot since I originally subscribed so I figured I would throw a little weight around.
On Apr 8, 2011 11:14 AM, "Mike Basinger" <mike.b...@ubuntu.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 17:07 +0200, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:
>
> > +1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
> > ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
> >
> >
> There is a place for that, it is call "The rest of the Internet" :).
I guess a more specific pointer would cnn, bbc , gaurdian, whatever those news media their general problem (or asset depending on the way you look at it) is that they generally remain local, I have been intrigued by the controversy and the amount of perspective. In this sense though I have seen only some relation to ubuntu/FOSS/linux which as some mention tends to spiral out from the subject matter so the subject and message have almost,if not completely, no relation so a completely different topic.
OTOH, I have found some things on here have inspired me to look further into detail than was being discussed. I do believe that sounder continues to serve its purpose even if the topics do "overgrow" their original meaning. A lot of other ubuntu-* lists are specific to a repair or tweaking a setting to fix an issue. Sounder has been one of the rare lists that make me want to look further and I enjoy that aspect of it.
-Erik
John McCabe-Dansted
> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
OK, Ubuntu doesn't *need* the list, but I don't see why Ubuntu needs
to delete this list either.
Apparently some people think the list is useful. Some don't. If there
is no cost to maintaining sounder then keeping sounder is at *worst*
harmless. I presume this issue it brought up because there is some
form of cost to maintaining the list. I imagione the direct financial
cost of running sounder is so small as to be negligible.
> If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
> turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
The obvious counter proposal is do nothing. It is hard to suggest a
counter proposal without knowing what problem closing sounder is meant
to solve. A concern raised by Avi is that "list is utterly not what
people who sign up to it are likely to expect". If that is the
concern, we could, for example, create a water-cooler list for
discussions are only related to Ubuntu in that two or more Ubuntu
users are involved in the discussion (and dump non-software related
discussions there). If there is concern is that the opinions on that
list may be misrepresented as the official opinion of Canonical, we
could perhaps distance water-cooler from Canonical and the Ubuntu
trademark. For example, by not hosting water-cooler on
lists.ubuntu.com
--
John C. McCabe-Dansted
Samuel Thurston
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Alan Pope <al...@popey.com> wrote:
>> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
>> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
>> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
>> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
>> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
>> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
>> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
>
> OK, Ubuntu doesn't *need* the list, but I don't see why Ubuntu needs
> to delete this list either.
>
> Apparently some people think the list is useful. Some don't. If there
> is no cost to maintaining sounder then keeping sounder is at *worst*
> harmless. I presume this issue it brought up because there is some
> form of cost to maintaining the list. I imagione the direct financial
> cost of running sounder is so small as to be negligible.
>
>> If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
>> turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
>
> The obvious counter proposal is do nothing. It is hard to suggest a
> counter proposal without knowing what problem closing sounder is meant
> to solve.
Let's just analyze the last 20 topics posted to the list, to see if
Alan's initial assumtion: that "the list now serves as a way for a few
people to argue about subjects only tertiarily related to ubuntu",
oldest activity first.
1)Four Reasons Firefox 4 can make a go of it--And one reason why it
can't.: 1 participant, 1 message, relevant to ubuntu (since firefox is
ubuntu's default browser), completely civil
2)Firefox Bags 1 Million Downloads in 3 Hours: 4 participants, 5
messages, relevant to ubuntu, completely civil.
3) GLSlideshow: 6 participants, 10 messages, relevant to ubuntu,
completely civil.
4) Apple to copyright individual letters: 3 participants, 3 messages,
amusing satire related to computers and intellectual property.
Completely civil.
5) Unity is made of fail: 3 participants, 4 messages, relevant to
ubuntu, completely civil.
6) Open source's UI handicap explains Google's Honeycomb move: 1
participant, 1 message, relevant article about linux & oss. completely
civil.
7) The battle rages on............: 1 participant, 1 message, relevant
article about ubuntu. completely civil.
8) Tips for trying the Natty beta in a VM: 2 participants, 3 messages,
relevant to ubuntu. completely civil.
9) maloader: Mach-0 Loader for Linux: 2 participants, 2 messages,
relevant to linux, completely civil.
10) Sorry guys,: 2 participants, 2 messages, apology for list
etiquette, completely civil
11) Ubuntu 11.10 makes Unity compulsory: over 170 messages, at least a
dozen participants. originally a discussion of the desktop switch in
natty, diverges into a political/philosophical debate after about 15
messages when mint leader's purported "anti-semitic" comments are
raised. Mostly civil, with the first somewhat incivil message posted
by: Alan Pope! *gasp* (though it was "on topic,"
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016111.html )
12) Good Article About Unity: 3 participants, 3 messages, relevant to
ubuntu, completely civil.
13) Problems Linux Enthusiasts Refuse to Address: 10 participants, 37
messages, relevant to linux in general, completely civil.
14) Ubuntu 11.04 Beta 1 Review and First Impressions: 1 participant, 1
message, relevant to ubuntu, completely civil
15) GNOME 3 released; Ubuntu GNOME remix announced: 6 particpants, 6
messages, relevant to ubuntu, completely civil
16) Don't Know Whether To Laugh Or Cry About This One: 3 participants,
4 messages, microsoft bashing, completely civil
17) Now apologise for America, Britain told: 14 participants, 30
messages, irrelevant amusement, mostly civil.
18) 20 Years of Linux down, and the best is yet to come, 1
participant, 1 message, relevant to linux, completely civil
19) Polyglots are better Linux users ;-): 2 participants, messages,
not really relevant but an attempt to bring calm to the out of control
religious discussion, completely civil
20)[ADMIN] [ANNOUNCE] This list: 13 participants, 19 messages, list
meta thread. mostly civil.
NOW FOR THE ANALYSIS OF THE CLAIM:
================================
There seems to be only about 20-25 active list posters. 20 is more
than a few, by most standards it would be called "several." But the
number is not large relative to other list communities. So the claim
that it serves a small number of people may be accurate, however what
is unknown is the number of passive subscribers.
Looking at the list above we have 20 topics. 9 of them are directly
relevant to ubuntu (at least at initial posting), 6 releavant to linux
or computing in general, 3 meta posts and 1 completely off-topic
thread. One thread started directly relevant and went haywire. but
even if we don't count that one, by topics we're at a 90% relevance
rate by-thread. even if we go by post, the relevance rate is pretty
close to 50% (although a huge number of the irrelevant posts were
generated by 2 users). The claim that the list is primarily used for
topics "only tertiarily related to ubuntu." is at best a half-truth.
A larger sample than 20 threads would probably be better for
establishing this.
Now for argument. While many of the threads have varying levels of
disagreement, the term "argue" implies contentiousness or incivility.
as shown, the 20 most recently active topics have been either
completely or mostly civil. On a per message basis, you can see that
the level of incivil posts is close to 6% of posts, again with most of
those being generated by two problem users.
Conclusion: While religoius/political discussions get out of hand and
generate a lot of traffic between a few users, they don't represent
the bulk of the list traffic. Over 90% of both messages and users are
completely civil and non-argumentative. Most of the topics posted,
and the general traffic of the list, is in fact related quite directly
to ubuntu, linux/oss, or computing in a larger context.
In other words, the only justification for closing the list that I can
see is that a few bad apples have spoiled the bunch.
Nathan Bahn
In other words, the only justification for closing the list that I can
see is that a few bad apples have spoiled the bunch.
--
S.T.--
Good god; I sincerely hope that I'm not being considered one of the bad apples!
donn
Wow, I stand impressed, good work. I like sounder, mostly as read-only.
With posts like that one, it's gold.
\d
Samuel Thurston
themselves in the line of fire) but for instance there's one user who
accounts for 25% of the posts in the crazy OT religion and politics
thread, by himself. I think a large number of other people responding
to this obvious troll doesn't help matters a whole lot, but the fact
is, that's a huge number of posts by any standard.
That's what I'm talking about. All of us engage in some
less-than-topical banter from time to time. People who make a career
out of it are a different subject. Even some of this chronic
offender's posts are topical, but the vast majority are not.
Samuel Thurston
> On 08/04/2011 19:48, Samuel Thurston wrote:
> Wow, I stand impressed, good work. I like sounder, mostly as read-only.
I'm in the same boat, I only post sporadically but I read quite
regularly. The idea of shuttering the list because it has a relative
few trolls with high post counts does not appeal to me in the least.
This is why we have banlists and admins. Not to threaten the entire
population of the list when things get a little out of hand.
Fact is, I like the population of the list, even the guys I habitually
disagree with. You're like the folks at my local tavern: I wouldn't
call them friends so much as familiar faces, but the conversation is
never boring.
> With
> posts like that one, it's gold.
Kind and humble thank-yous. I was just interested to see if Alan's
claim was backed by facts.
chris
> I've added an proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council agenda to shut
> the sounder list down.
>
>
> The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
> and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
> reminder nearer the time.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
> It can of course also be discussed on this list, and at the meeting
> I'll do my best to objectively pull together opinions and proposals
> from those not present.
>
> Thanks,
> Al.
>
I wonder if this is not an over reaction? Having followed this list for
quite some time, I have noticed that it does have the ability to be self
policing. I have a delete key to use for the bulk of the immature
nonsense that childish egos feel they need to post.
However, there is also some very good information posted by the "adults"
If there is an ability to vote I would vote for keeping the list going,
and let the self policing continue
--
Cheers the kiwi
chris
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Avi Greenbury <li...@avi.co> wrote:
> > Liam Proven wrote:
> >>
> >> Translation: "I don't like the playground, the kids there are mean. So
> >> I want it closed."
> >
> > Not really. This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are
> > likely to expect, going on the mailman description. If Canonical wanted to
> > be hosting a mailing list dedicated to religious and political discussion,
> > they'd do so and describe it as such.
> >
> > ubuntu-users is supposed to be for technical support; this list is supposed
> > to be where the conversations that are not strictly technical support, but
> > still ubuntu-related in some way, end up.
> If you don't personally like the content of an unmoderated list, leave
> the list, or try to get it moderated. Advocating shutting down a
> community service because you disapprove of how it's being used is
> just odd...
>
the kiwi
Samuel Thurston
> I've added an proposal to the Ubuntu Community Council agenda to shut
> the sounder list down.
>
> When the Ubuntu project was started, the sounder list was a place
> where new ideas and fun things like 'Ubuntu sightings' were discussed
> - it was the first mailing list you would read in the mornings.
> However nowadays I don't believe this list is serving its purpose &
> isn't helpful to the project. It only serves to allow a small set of
> people to argue about subjects very tenuously related to Ubuntu, or
> unrelated at all. The Ubuntu project doesn't need this list anymore.
>
> If anyone has an opinion / counter proposal I would recommend they
> turn up to the next CC meeting where it can be discussed.
>
> The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
> and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
> reminder nearer the time.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
> It can of course also be discussed on this list, and at the meeting
> I'll do my best to objectively pull together opinions and proposals
> from those not present.
>
So, Alan, I will attempt to show up for the meeting but I want to make
sure that the following points are perfectly clear should I be unable
to attend:
1) so far the overwhelming majority of responding list users reject
the proposal for shutdown
2) on the basis of presented evidence your thesis is not accepted as fact
3) sounder serves a useful, legitimate role in the Ubuntu community as
a place for community members to discuss Ubuntu, Linux and computing
issues outside the scope of other community lists.
4) if you proceed to seek shutdown regardless of 1,2 & 3, please
accept the following counterproposals:
a) do nothing, as there is no consensus that anything need be done
b) if there is a sense that something must be done, light touch
should be employed: warn and block access to habitual offenders of the
community CoC
c) if it is felt that (b) is inadequate, assign a list moderator
& a clear statement of what is to be considered OT. The traffic is
not high enough that this is an overwhelming burden.
5) Whatever the problem is, throwing baby out with bathwater should
not be considered a favorable option.
Thanks and regards,
Samuel
David Gerard
> b) if there is a sense that something must be done, light touch
> should be employed: warn and block access to habitual offenders of the
> community CoC
And the messages noting that one of the main offenders in incivility
is the person proposing shutting the list down definitely needs
mention at the meeting.
- d.
Samuel Thurston
> On 8 April 2011 21:58, Samuel Thurston <sam.th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> b) if there is a sense that something must be done, light touch
>> should be employed: warn and block access to habitual offenders of the
>> community CoC
>
>
> And the messages noting that one of the main offenders in incivility
> is the person proposing shutting the list down definitely needs
> mention at the meeting.
>
I'm conflicted. On the one hand Alan is clearly a valuable member of
the community by his contributions to the podcast etc. On the other
hand he proposes this ham-handed "fix" to the problem that he doesn't
think sounder is "fun" anymore, and does frequently come across as
snide. Sadly because he is more invested in the community than some
of us other jokers, his proposal will probably carry some weight.
It's really kind of scary that I now have to set aside time to save
something I like because one guy doesn't think it's "fun."
Edward Craig
I lurk here, rarely post. I find it occasionally useful, ofen amusing, and rarely offensive. I doubt we'll gain anything by eliminating this troll trap except some comfort for the complacent and perhaps a warning of oncoming problems.
On Apr 8, 2011 2:49 PM, "Samuel Thurston" <sam.th...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 4:40 PM, David Gerard <dge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 April 2011 21:58, Sam...
I'm conflicted. On the one hand Alan is clearly a valuable member of
the community by his contributions to the podcast etc. On the other
hand he proposes this ham-handed "fix" to the problem that he doesn't
think sounder is "fun" anymore, and does frequently come across as
snide. Sadly because he is more invested in the community than some
of us other jokers, his proposal will probably carry some weight.
It's really kind of scary that I now have to set aside time to save
something I like because one guy doesn't think it's "fun."
--
sounder mailing list
sou...@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists....
David Sanders
"off-topic" list?
I'm certainly as guilty, if not more, than most list users for being
occasionally inflammatory on subjects I feel passionate and
well-informed about, but I don't really know what it is you find so
unreasonable about the discussion. We discuss computers - which really
do have an impact on ethics, politics and other subjects - as was well
evidenced by the start of the conversation regarding Israel - and so I
feel we should be free to express our wider opinions on the world as
it relates to technology. My views on history, politics and the rest
are directly relevant to the reasons why I value the meritocratic
system favoured by FOSS developers (and I am also a developer, just to
keep it in perspective), so it seems silly to pigeon-hole an off-topic
list that is, in a wide sense, related to technology of the free kind
and say that, just because it displeases you to read long-winded and
rage-filled discussions, you'd prefer it to not exist. Frankly that
sounds pretty autocratic.
What's your reasoning?
David
Nathan Bahn
On 8 April 2011 10:17, Alan Pope <al...@popey.com> wrote:
>[...]
> The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
> and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
> reminder nearer the time.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>[...]
Is this 11 A.M., Greenwich Mean Time?
David Gerard
>> On 8 April 2011 10:17, Alan Pope <al...@popey.com> wrote:
>> > The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
>> > and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
>> > reminder nearer the time.
>> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
> Is this 11 A.M., Greenwich Mean Time?
Yes, UTC ~= GMT. (12 noon BST.)
- d.
Robert Holtzman
.........snip(maybe too much)........
> It's really kind of scary that I now have to set aside time to save
> something I like because one guy doesn't think it's "fun."
Actually, it's not scary. It's infuriating.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
Samuel Thurston
>
>
>
>> On 8 April 2011 10:17, Alan Pope <al...@popey.com> wrote:
>> >[...]
>> > The next CC meeting is due to be on the 17th April 2011 at 11:00 UTC
>> > and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on freenode IRC. I'll send a
>> > reminder nearer the time.
>> >
>> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>> >[...]
>
>
>
> Is this 11 A.M., Greenwich Mean Time?
> --N.B.
Ah, so not only do I have to schedule time to defend the list at an
IRC meeting... but I have to be ready to do it at 6:00 AM on a Sunday
in my timezone. Wonderful.
I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I will not be in the mood to make it as
irritating for the person who made it necessary as possible.
P.S. are my <sarcasm> tags still rendering text in all caps?
Steve Furbish
>
> +1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
> ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
>
Nathan Bahn
On 4/8/2011 11:07 AM, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:Or a third called ubuntu-pretentious-NWO-types.
+1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
?
Angelus
reasons for not closing this list. I wanna send a message for Alan . I
think this must be thought with cold mind . I mean ,
Sounder list never had a particular purpose , and this way sounder
list have run very well for years without rigid rules . It's
statistical that in this years more than 2 and 3 topics where really
offtopic , but i think there hasn't been any change in the time of
sounder list to think in closing it.
I appeal to your mind with this classical and emotive words that all
computer geek must know:
If something runs , DONT TOUCH IT .
:D good day to all
J. L.
> So, Alan, I will attempt to show up for the meeting but I want to make
> sure that the following points are perfectly clear should I be unable
> to attend:
>
> 1) so far the overwhelming majority of responding list users reject
> the proposal for shutdown
> 2) on the basis of presented evidence your thesis is not accepted as fact
> 3) sounder serves a useful, legitimate role in the Ubuntu community as
> a place for community members to discuss Ubuntu, Linux and computing
> issues outside the scope of other community lists.
> 4) if you proceed to seek shutdown regardless of 1,2 & 3, please
> accept the following counterproposals:
> a) do nothing, as there is no consensus that anything need be done
> b) if there is a sense that something must be done, light touch
> should be employed: warn and block access to habitual offenders of the
> community CoC
> c) if it is felt that (b) is inadequate, assign a list moderator
> & a clear statement of what is to be considered OT. The traffic is
> not high enough that this is an overwhelming burden.
> 5) Whatever the problem is, throwing baby out with bathwater should
> not be considered a favorable option.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> Samuel
I suppose i'm too short a (primarily only "listening" / reading)
subscriber to sounder to fully judge / appreciate the worth of this list
but at least the five points above deserve nothing less than 100 % of my
approval => FULL ACK!
Really excellent writing and argumenting! Thanks a lot for Your
thoughts! :-)
J. L.
P.S.:
Usually it is much more easy to destroy s.th. or to shut s.th. down than
it is to build s.th. from scratch.
At least in just under some seven weeks i am subscribed to this list i
honestly have to admit that up i did not feel offended by any thread so
far. But i have to admit that of course i do not read every single post
but only those that seem to be interesting guessing from the subject
matter. But from this quite short experience i can not realize any real
problem whatsoever ...!
Samuel Thurston
Given that Avi Greenbury raised the issue:
"This list is utterly not what people who sign up to it are likely to
expect, going on the mailman description."
Your short-term experience is very important. Thanks for the
compliments and your insights.
Having been active on the list at various levels for several years, I
almost agree with Avi's statement, except that just because it's not
what you expect doesn't mean it's not good. Perhaps returning the
mailman description to the original "anything goes" wording would fix
that issue.
I read through a substantial chunk of the archives over the weekend.
With rare exception, the list has remained predominantly civil and
topical since its formation.
Steve Furbish
On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Steve Furbish <sfur...@nerdshack.com> wrote:
On 4/8/2011 11:07 AM, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:Or a third called ubuntu-pretentious-NWO-types.
+1 for this decision, however I suggest creating 2 other lists:
ubuntu-politics and ubuntu-religion.
S.F.--
?
N.B.
As a regular longtime peruser and seldom contributor to this list (they call us lurkers, I believe) it never ceases to amaze how many times the shutdown/off-topic threads appear. I'm just a retired American policeman (authoritarian issues of my own don't you know) who finds it amusing that so many highbrow intellectuals seem to reside here with nothing better to do than stomp the latest person or group deemed guttersnipe by the masses. They are clever for sure, but even with the obligatory on-topic Ubuntu musings which they never forget to include with their offerings one is unlikely to actually learn anything new. I have occasionally encountered edifying materials here, but it's really the politics and religious discussions that get the internationalists and nationalists and the various religious enthusiasts at each others throats and provide gruesome entertainment for the more warped souls among us.
Steve