Sounder is a valuable Ubuntu community asset.
Samuel Thurston
I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
community. I have only my own perspective to offer, limited as it is.
As Alan seems predisposed to press the case for the closure of the
list in the face of vocal and vehement public disapproval, I'd like to
enlist your help.
What do you value about the sounder list?
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Nathan Bahn
Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list anymore."
[...]
What do you value about the sounder list?
- As infuriating as some of the posts can be, I must say this: This list is rarely dull. It provides a variety and spice that is in direct contrast to the regular Q&A listserve -- and that's a good thing!
- I do hope that Alan Pope doesn't take this opposition personally -- I just happen to think that the proposed punishment is WAAAY disproportionate to any infractions that may or may not have occurred. It would also be counterproductive; there would be much more temptation to bring more off-topic comments to the Q&A listserve.
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Harold Sawyer
Thank you all for what you contribute.
Sent from Harold's BlackBerry
Anthony Papillion
Perhaps the list doesn't meet Mr. Popes expectations or approval but I
think it's obvious that it meets the needs, expectations, and approval
of many here.
Every list will have debates and discussions from time to time. Even
the much heralded Cipherpunks list of the 1990's had heated off-topic
debates and is still widely seen as one of the most important
listservs ever. If you don't like what's being discussed on the list,
you *always* have two options: unsubscribe or 2) use the delete key.
If the list is a waste of your time, then choose not to waste your
time.
I definitely *do not* support the deletion of this list.
Anthony
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Basil Chupin
> Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list anymore."
>
> I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
> community. I have only my own perspective to offer, limited as it is.
> As Alan seems predisposed to press the case for the closure of the
> list in the face of vocal and vehement public disapproval, I'd like to
> enlist your help.
>
> What do you value about the sounder list?
Sounder is a safety/relief valve.
If you didn't have sounder you would have people in the "real" mail
lists wanting to go "off-topic" occasionally but with nowhere to go [and
typing in OT at the beginning of the Subject Header is NOT the way to
go!] - as it has happened in the past, and will happen in the future.
However, when this happens someone will always say, "Take this to the
off-topic list Sounder you naughty-type person you!" but if sounder is
not then.............
There has been more discussion over the past few days in Sounder than
there has been in something like ubuntu-users. Why? Because, as I
mentioned, it is a "safety/relief valve".
And I don't know if anybody noticed, but those who have been writing in
Sounder over the past few days are totally unknown to most (?all) of us
who normally read the ubuntu-users list (or even the little used,
"'cause everyone is frightened shitless for stepping out of line",
Kubuntu-users list). I have seen names of people in Sounder over the
past few days which I have never seen before!
Now is that a GREAT thing!
People who are users of Ubuntu but have been lurking without even
casting a shadow have suddenly come out and expressed themselves!
Woo-ho! Wonderful! Absolutely, mind-bogglingly, *wonderful*!
People are COMMUNICATING and letting their ideas - good or bad - flow to
others!
One is not confined to reading NoOp giving a list of URLs to read as a
response to some dreary techno question :-) (no offence meant Gary!) in
ubuntu-users.
So, don't anyone be a anal-retentive person and stop this mail list from
existing!
Now, having said this there is a need for some guidelines concerning
what is posted here.
The best example I can come up is what occurs in the OFFTOPIC mail list
in openSUSE.
Firstly, OFFTOPIC is *NOT* allowed to be captured by Google so that
whatever is posted there is not searchable by anyone.
Secondly, that list is *not* moderated *per* *se* - there IS a moderator
but he will only step in if a number of mother's boys/wankers/religious
fanatics/tossers/and those of similar tendencies consider that a
person(s) is/are being exceptionally vulgar/annoying/pains-in-the-arse.
Naturally, the conditions of use of this openSUSE Offtopic mail list are
written down, and of course there could be someone who would be thrown
off the list for "not following the guidelines" - as someone who is now
here on this list knows because the odds where stacked against her/him
by some tossers who wanted her/him out from OFFTOPIC.
BTW, just for the record, that OFFTOPIC mail list in now
dead-in-the-water because people who made some contribution to its
vibrance simply left to use other distros or gone to another mail list
where discussion is not considered to be something which is subject to
people with anal-retentive dispositions.
Sounder needs to remain alive!
There is NO arguments against this. None.
BC
--
"I believe what I am programmed to believe."
A robot in Futuruma
chris
> On 09/04/11 13:01, Samuel Thurston wrote:
> > Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list anymore."
> >
> > I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
>
> Sounder needs to remain alive!
>
> There is NO arguments against this. None.
>
> BC
>
> --
> "I believe what I am programmed to believe."
> A robot in Futuruma
>
draconian types?
--
Cheers the kiwi
Paul Sladen
> what can one do against draconian types?
Perhaps to uphold everyone and offer the possibility that other people
are actually nice and not proponents of 2,500-year-old Greek laws.
-Paul
Christopher Chan
> Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list anymore."
>
> I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
> community. I have only my own perspective to offer, limited as it is.
> As Alan seems predisposed to press the case for the closure of the
> list in the face of vocal and vehement public disapproval, I'd like to
> enlist your help.
>
> What do you value about the sounder list?
>
Basil had this key word in his post: communicating
Members of a community communicate with each other. They do not only
answer or ask technical questions. Yes, members of a community can talk
to each other in private. But they also use public forums. The sounder
list appears to serve this purpose.
It is so not ubuntu to deprive the Ubuntu community of such an area.
Cybe R. Wizard
Christopher Chan <christop...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:
> It is so not ubuntu to deprive the Ubuntu community of such an area.
+1
...from likely the worst 'offender'.
Hey, you folks stretch my mind every OT (is that really possible?)
thread. I've enjoyed it immensely so far. If sounder goes the way of
the ancient giant birds we will all be the poorer for it.
Cybe R. Wizard
--
I suppose that writers should, in a way, feel flattered by the
censorship laws. They show a primitive fear and dread at the fearful
magic of print.
John Mortimer
Samuel Thurston
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Samuel Thurston <sam.th...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list
>> anymore."
>> [...]
>> What do you value about the sounder list?
>
>
> I do hope that Alan Pope doesn't take this opposition personally -- I just
> happen to think that the proposed punishment is WAAAY disproportionate to
> any infractions that may or may not have occurred. It would also be
> counterproductive; there would be much more temptation to bring more
> off-topic comments to the Q&A listserve.
>
> --N.B.
I surely hope that Alan does not take people wanting to keep a
resource (one that I've been pleased to enjoy for several years now)
personally.
I do want to stress that I am specifically looking for the kind of
comments that I can quote to the community concern as justification
for the list. I appreciate everyone's great input so far!
There are some regular contributors that we haven't yet heard from--
please chime in folks, we need your input!
One of the things I value about the list is that it's a way for me to
keep abreast of the "contentious" issues within the community (e.g.
the unity freakout) without having to wade through a high-traffic
list. I feel like it's a filter for the issues that, while usually
lacking in technical depth, stir emotional reactions and that's part
of why the discussions become so heated.
Samuel Thurston
<cybe_r...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 22:04:30 +0800
> Christopher Chan <christop...@bradbury.edu.hk> wrote:
>
>> It is so not ubuntu to deprive the Ubuntu community of such an area.
>
> +1
>
> ...from likely the worst 'offender'.
I don't really consider you an 'offender' in any sense. I do however
feel that you more than most provide the type of fodder that someone
wishing to shutter the list might use as evidence that it should be.
You do, however, offer good insight into many topics, so it's not as
though I would advocate purging you from the list. I would however
suggest that you think about the salient points of the CoC before
pressing send. I could probably heed the same advice. :)
>
> Hey, you folks stretch my mind every OT (is that really possible?)
It is possible, unfortunately. The list once bore an "anything goes"
type of mission statement but I think two years ago this was redefined
to keep things specifically "Ubuntu-related" after some threads got
distinctly personal. I think that in itself is an incredibly vast
scope of subject matter, but not without limits.
> thread. I've enjoyed it immensely so far. If sounder goes the way of
> the ancient giant birds we will all be the poorer for it.
Agreed.
Samuel Thurston
> I'm a lurker but I, for one, get a *lot* of value from this list.
> Perhaps the list doesn't meet Mr. Popes expectations or approval but I
> think it's obvious that it meets the needs, expectations, and approval
> of many here.
Thanks for making yourself heard!
*snip*
> If you don't like what's being discussed on the list,
> you *always* have two options: unsubscribe or 2) use the delete key.
> If the list is a waste of your time, then choose not to waste your
> time.
This sentiment has been expressed a few times, and it deserves a counterpoint.
As you may or may not be aware, the contents of this list are archived
on ubuntu-hosted servers. While I do agree that people can
unsubscribe if they *merely* find the list a waste of their own
personal time, there may be some merit to the argument that some of
the discussions reflect poorly on the community as a whole.
So rather than a "you know where the door is," type response I want to
focus on what the strength and value of the list is.
Thanks again everybody!
chris
> On Sat, 9 Apr 2011, chris wrote:
> > what can one do against draconian types?
>
> Perhaps to uphold everyone and offer the possibility that other people
> are actually nice and not proponents of 2,500-year-old Greek laws.
>
> -Paul
>
>
We can hope so, but lets see what happens.
chris
Cybe R. Wizard
Samuel Thurston <sam.th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list
> anymore."
>
> I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
> community. I have only my own perspective to offer, limited as it is.
> As Alan seems predisposed to press the case for the closure of the
> list in the face of vocal and vehement public disapproval, I'd like to
> enlist your help.
>
> What do you value about the sounder list?
>
Truth be told, Ubuntu /doesn't/ need this list any longer; only its
community of humans does. That won't be a consideration, I imagine,
and /it will fall/ to whether or not the list can make the Ubu PHBs and
PsTB feel all goody-goody about it, the OS and themselves with
(typically) little or no regard for the feelings or needs of the little
people.
Goodbye, old Sounder friend, you were nice for a while until the Big
Fellas became uncomfortable with your topics and ran up the censorship
flag once again.
Cybe R. Wizard
--
Registered GNU/Linux user # 126326
Registered Ubuntu User # 2136
Amedee Van Gasse
> Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list
> anymore."
>
> I feel that sounder provides a very valuable function in the Ubuntu
> community. I have only my own perspective to offer, limited as it is.
> As Alan seems predisposed to press the case for the closure of the
> list in the face of vocal and vehement public disapproval, I'd like to
> enlist your help.
The only way to help is to be present at that online meeting that Alan
talked about. I think it's on irc. If nobody there objects to Alan's
proposal then it will just be accepted.
chris
> On Sat, April 9, 2011 05:01, Samuel Thurston wrote:
> > Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list
> > anymore."
> >
> The only way to help is to be present at that online meeting that Alan
> talked about. I think it's on irc. If nobody there objects to Alan's
> proposal then it will just be accepted.
>
>
So we need as many as can be there.
the kiwi
Jan Claeys
> On Mon, 2011-04-11 at 10:25 +0200, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:
> > On Sat, April 9, 2011 05:01, Samuel Thurston wrote:
> > > Alan Pope feels that "the Ubuntu community doesn't need this list
> > > anymore."
> > The only way to help is to be present at that online meeting that Alan
> > talked about. I think it's on irc. If nobody there objects to Alan's
> > proposal then it will just be accepted.
> So we need as many as can be there.
Actually, I think the CC prefers quality over quantity, so it matters
more who is there, and what they have to say/propose, than how many are
there...
--
Jan Claeys