An open letter to Alan Pope

[Samuel Thurston]

Dear Mr Pope and the rest of the Ubuntu Community Council,

Alan, you have displayed your true colors today. After assuring me
that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
rather than today's, I decided to disregard the inflammatory rhetoric
about your character, and put my trust in you as a representative of
the community.

That trust was obviously misplaced.

I say this because I feel that on top of you misleading me (and
others) about the time of the meeting, you also chose to deliberately
mischarachterize a number of my statements and selectively present the
evidence I so exhaustively prepared, so as to bolster your own opinion
that the list should be closed.

I call foul. I call foul on the entire CC. Because if you voted to
close the list you did so because it was your opinion that it should
be shut regardless of community input and evidence to the contrary OR
because you neglected to do your duty and investigate the information
put forth by Mr. Pope (he was kind enough to link to original messages
while quoting out of context, isn't that nice?)

Whether it be negligence or malfeasance, I stand disappointed in your service.

Due to this misconduct, and other recent flagrant missteps by the
Ubuntu community, I will be looking elsewhere for my Linux needs. I
have no need for a community in which someone so dishonest and
underhanded gains a respected and representative status.

Thank you and good day,
Samuel

--
sounder mailing list
sou...@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder

[Paul Sladen]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:
> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting

This was not my understanding. Of course you are free as anyone else
to bring a topic to the Ubuntu Community Council: (it's a wiki)

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda

> I say this because I feel

Your personal feelings are no excuse for making unfounded, presumptive
or baseless statements towards others. Please keep it to the facts.

The transcript of the Ubuntu Community Council IRC meeting shows the
lengths to which one particular member of the CC went to raise the
suggestion of carrying the item over:

http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:18

> I call foul on the entire CC.

Perhaps I've missed your IRC nickname in the IRC transcript. Was
there a point that you had raised during the discussion and which you
feel was ignored or overlooked?

-Paul

[Michael Haney]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Paul Sladen <ubu...@paul.sladen.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
>
> This was not my understanding.  Of course you are free as anyone else
> to bring a topic to the Ubuntu Community Council:  (it's a wiki)
>
>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
>> I say this because I feel
>
> Your personal feelings are no excuse for making unfounded, presumptive
> or baseless statements towards others.  Please keep it to the facts.
>
> The transcript of the Ubuntu Community Council IRC meeting shows the
> lengths to which one particular member of the CC went to raise the
> suggestion of carrying the item over:
>
>  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:18
>
>> I call foul on the entire CC.
>
> Perhaps I've missed your IRC nickname in the IRC transcript.  Was
> there a point that you had raised during the discussion and which you
> feel was ignored or overlooked?
>

I would suggest a "Vote of No Confidence" in the current Ubuntu
Community leadership. The current CC needs to be removed and a new
one voted in. They're proven they cannot be trusted with the burden
of leadership.

--
Michael "TheZorch" Haney
"The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking
of morality by religion." ~ Arthur C. Clarke
"The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion and
politics, but it is not the path to knowledge, and there is no place
for it in the endeavor of science. " ~ Carl Sagan

Visit My Site:  http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1
To Contact Me:
http://sites.google.com/site/thezorch/home-1/zorch-central---contacts

Free Your PC from the Bondage of Windows http://www.ubuntu.com

[Mike Basinger]

On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:43 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:

> Dear Mr Pope and the rest of the Ubuntu Community Council,
>
> Alan, you have displayed your true colors today. After assuring me
> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
> rather than today's, I decided to disregard the inflammatory rhetoric
> about your character, and put my trust in you as a representative of
> the community.
>

Once again, this was a decision of a quorum for Community Council members not an sole undertaking by Mr. Pope.

> That trust was obviously misplaced.
>
> I say this because I feel that on top of you misleading me (and
> others) about the time of the meeting, you also chose to deliberately
> mischarachterize a number of my statements and selectively present the
> evidence I so exhaustively prepared, so as to bolster your own opinion
> that the list should be closed.

As I said in a previous email, the CC can not discuss a topic multiple times just to make it convenient for every time zone. I got up at 5am to discuss to attend the IRC meeting, surely someone from the 350+ member on the list could have attended to advocate for the Sounder community.

> I call foul. I call foul on the entire CC. Because if you voted to
> close the list you did so because it was your opinion that it should
> be shut regardless of community input and evidence to the contrary OR
> because you neglected to do your duty and investigate the information
> put forth by Mr. Pope (he was kind enough to link to original messages
> while quoting out of context, isn't that nice?)
>
> Whether it be negligence or malfeasance, I stand disappointed in your service.

I disappointed in the list for never starting a thread to discuss between it members this problem as perhaps giving the CC other options to consider. As far I can tell no one start this discussion till after the CC decided to close the list.

> Due to this misconduct, and other recent flagrant missteps by the
> Ubuntu community, I will be looking elsewhere for my Linux needs. I
> have no need for a community in which someone so dishonest and
> underhanded gains a respected and representative status.

That is your decision, and I wish you well in your further OSS/Linux endeavors.

Mike Basinger

--
Mike Basinger
mike.b...@ubuntu.com

[Paul Sladen]

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Michael Haney wrote:
> The current CC needs to be removed and a new one voted in.

Please do vote new CC members in! The current election term
is for two years; which expires on 2011-10-07:

https://launchpad.net/~communitycouncil/+members

-Paul

[Basil Chupin]

On 20/04/11 12:47, Paul Sladen wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:

that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting

This was not my understanding.

QUOTE

On 11 April 2011 22:26, Samuel Thurston <sam.th...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alan, Checking back on the wiki page no time is yet listed for this
> item on the community council agenda.  If I read this page correctly,
> if the item is indeed bumped to 21:00 UTC, then it will be discussed
> at the meeting May 3 instead of April 19.. is this correct?
>
> Please clarify.
>

That's right. Yes.

There's been a lot of feedback since the original proposal, and I'm
happy to collate that and present it objectively at either meeting.
It's often difficult to get the entire CC to meetings, so sometimes
there's not enough to make a decision there and then. But it's worth
discussing. It's not a foregone conclusion as some have suggested, and
the fact that I raised it and I'm on the CC doesn't really make any
difference, if anyone had added it to the agenda it would have been
considered the same way.

Cheers,
Al.

UNQUOTE


And now we go into the "let's play the pedantics-semantics game"..........



However, I really feel for Alan - what he states is not valued and is ignored by the other members of the CoC.

Not only is this a slap-in-the face and therefore hurtful to Alan but it also indicates the insensitivity of those who are on the CoC and how they "operate" (for want of a less offensive word).

Not nice, not nice at all.


BC

-- 
Great Man reaches complete understanding of the main issues; Petty Man reaches complete understanding of the minute details."

                                             Confucius

[Samuel Thurston]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:11 PM, Mike Basinger
<mike.b...@ubuntu.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:43 PM, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr Pope and the rest of the Ubuntu Community Council,
>>
>> Alan, you have displayed your true colors today.  After assuring me
>> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
>> rather than today's, I decided to disregard the inflammatory rhetoric
>> about your character, and put my trust in you as a representative of
>> the community.
>>
>
> Once again, this was a decision of a quorum for Community Council members not an sole undertaking by Mr. Pope.

Pope posted the item on the agenda. Pope assured those of us who
questioned him on it that he would be a fair and objective presenter.
He also stated that he would be moving the item to 2100 UTC on May
3rd.

I don't begrudge Alan for the votes cast by other CC members. I
begrudge him for failing to deliver on promises he made to the list.

>
>> That trust was obviously misplaced.
>>
>> I say this because I feel that on top of you misleading me (and
>> others) about the time of the meeting, you also chose to deliberately
>> mischarachterize a number of my statements and selectively present the
>> evidence I so exhaustively prepared, so as to bolster your own opinion
>> that the list should be closed.
>
> As I said in a previous email, the CC can not discuss a topic multiple times just to make it convenient for every time zone. I got up at 5am to discuss to attend the IRC meeting, surely someone from the 350+ member on the list could have attended to advocate for the Sounder community.

I'm not asking for multiple hearings. I was told the item would be
moved to May 3rd and that is what I set on my calendar.

>
>> I call foul.  I call foul on the entire CC.  Because if you voted to
>> close the list you did so because it was your opinion that it should
>> be shut regardless of community input and evidence to the contrary OR
>> because you neglected to do your duty and investigate the information
>> put forth by Mr. Pope (he was kind enough to link to original messages
>> while quoting out of context, isn't that nice?)
>>
>> Whether it be negligence or malfeasance, I stand disappointed in your service.
>
> I disappointed in the list for never starting a thread to discuss between it members  this problem as perhaps giving the CC other options to consider.  As far I can tell no one start this discussion till after the CC decided to close the list.

This is part of my difficulty right now... should I be upset with Alan
for claiming he would convey this information? Or with the other CC
members voting to close the list for not bothering to follow the links
he painstakingly embedded in his proposal to see if they actually said
what he thought they were saying?

the start of a HUGE thread where discussion of the condition of the
list takes place:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016351.html

In which I post an exhaustive study of a month's worth of list traffic
and conclude that it is *mostly* civil, topical and worthwhile.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016375.html

In which I lay out a clear and concise argument against closure of the
list, and alternative proposals should they be deemed necessary.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016382.html

In that thread, a large number of people who are readers more
frequently than posters, came out to voice their support of the list.

And a separate thread
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2011-April/016396.html
where 10 or so of the 30-odd regular posters to the list express what
they value about the list... nothing that can't be maintained beyond
moderation.

So.... Where exactly is your disappointment at the lists' responses?
A lot of these linked posts are my own... but look at the thread view
in the archives. Dozens of people chiming in and offering exactly the
sort of examination and proposal that you're claiming we didn't do.
The reason that you don't know about it is that

1) Alan told us he would present this information to the CC
2) Alan told us the incorrect date for the CC meeting not once but twice.

>
>> Due to this misconduct, and other recent flagrant missteps by the
>> Ubuntu community, I will be looking elsewhere for my Linux needs.  I
>> have no need for a community in which someone so dishonest and
>> underhanded gains a respected and representative status.
>
> That is your decision, and I wish you well in your further OSS/Linux endeavors.
>

--

[Samuel Thurston]

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Paul Sladen <ubu...@paul.sladen.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:
>> that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting
>
> This was not my understanding.  Of course you are free as anyone else
> to bring a topic to the Ubuntu Community Council:  (it's a wiki)

I have already reposted the mail where pope confirmed that moving the
timeslot would put it at may 3. I have not reposted the link where he
said he would move the time to 2100, but he did in fact say he was
going to do it.

>
>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
>
>> I say this because I feel
>
> Your personal feelings are no excuse for making unfounded, presumptive
> or baseless statements towards others.  Please keep it to the facts.

My statements are well founded, documented and have a basis in
reality. You seem to disagree but only on the assumption that I
should not have taken pope on his word.

>
> The transcript of the Ubuntu Community Council IRC meeting shows the
> lengths to which one particular member of the CC went to raise the
> suggestion of carrying the item over:

He didn't suggest carrying the item over, he suggested it be discussed
at BOTH times rather than the time he said he intended to move it to.
Which, as we have been told (repeatedly), the CC can't be bothered to
do.

>
>  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:18
>
>> I call foul on the entire CC.
>
> Perhaps I've missed your IRC nickname in the IRC transcript.  Was
> there a point that you had raised during the discussion and which you
> feel was ignored or overlooked?
>

I was misled about the time of the meeting. Had I known that this
would be the one and only discussion time I would have absolutely been
there.... I've already invested an unreasonable amount of time in
researching the character of the list's content and getting a feel for
how it should be handled, not to show up.

Now you can say "oh you can look at the wiki" and I can say to you, if
someone tells me something that is not true, and I fail to go and look
it up elsewhere to confirm, does that mean the person did not mislead
me in the first place?

Perhaps you think I should believe that two incorrect statements of
date were "accidentally" posted to the list, by the person motioning
for its shutting at the CC?

And maybe I'm just being paranoid that the outline I specifically
asked Pope to present was not presented, but that one of my statements
was twisted to seem in support of closing the list?

[Basil Chupin]

On 20/04/11 13:04, Michael Haney wrote:

On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:47 PM, Paul Sladen <ubu...@paul.sladen.org> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Samuel Thurston wrote:

that this item would be brought up at the next community meeting

This was not my understanding.  Of course you are free as anyone else
to bring a topic to the Ubuntu Community Council:  (it's a wiki)

 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda

I say this because I feel

Your personal feelings are no excuse for making unfounded, presumptive
or baseless statements towards others.  Please keep it to the facts.

The transcript of the Ubuntu Community Council IRC meeting shows the
lengths to which one particular member of the CC went to raise the
suggestion of carrying the item over:

 http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/04/19/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:18

I call foul on the entire CC.

Perhaps I've missed your IRC nickname in the IRC transcript.  Was
there a point that you had raised during the discussion and which you
feel was ignored or overlooked?

I would suggest a "Vote of No Confidence" in the current Ubuntu
Community leadership.  The current CC needs to be removed and a new
one voted in.  They're proven they cannot be trusted with the burden
of leadership.

Vooops! Missed this one until now.

My feeling is is that the majority of people here - and most probably elsewhere if they were aware of it - are disillusioned with the performance of this CoC and the idea of having all the members replaced is appropriate.

However, there are 2 points about this.

Firstly, the current membership of the CC expires this coming July so it's only a matter of waiting a few months before they get replaced anyway.

Secondly, what exactly is the relevance of this "CC"?

A lame attempt at getting people to believe in this magical, Harry Potter-type world, of "community involvement" and all that....? (at least until the time that the "community" disagrees in any way?)

I stop here.

BC

-- 
"Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one."
           Inspector "Dirty Harry" Callahan

[Amedee Van Gasse]

On Wed, April 20, 2011 05:11, Mike Basinger wrote:

> As I said in a previous email, the CC can not discuss a topic multiple
> times just to make it convenient for every time zone. I got up at 5am to
> discuss to attend the IRC meeting, surely someone from the 350+ member on
> the list could have attended to advocate for the Sounder community.

I will try to attend the meeting on 3 may. I have aready logged into the
ubuntu-meeting channel with irssi, and I will remain on the channel,
lurking, thanks to a screen session that keeps running.

This is what I'm currently seeing:

10:27 -!- amedee [~ame...@intrepid.warp.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:27 -!- Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds |
Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
10:27 -!- Topic set by cody-somerville
[~cody-some@ubuntu/member/somerville32] [Mon Jan 3 20:23:23 2011]
10:27 [Users #ubuntu-meeting]
10:27 [ adam_g ] [ cjohnston ] [ highvoltage ] [ komputes ] [
ogasawara ] [ Sp4rKy ]
10:27 [ Adri2000 ] [ cjwatson ] [ hyperair ] [ lamont ] [
ogra_ ] [ starcraftman]
10:27 [ agateau ] [ cnd ] [ ianmcorvidae] [ Laney ] [
oubiwann ] [ stgraber ]
10:27 [ ailo ] [ cody-somerville] [ IdleOne ] [ lifeless ] [
Pendulum ] [ SWAT ]
10:27 [ ajmitch ] [ court_jester ] [ ikepanhc ] [ lionel ] [
pgraner ] [ Technoviking]
10:27 [ akgraner ] [ Craig_Dem ] [ ikonia ] [ lool ] [
Pici ] [ Tm_T ]
10:27 [ AlanBell ] [ czajkowski ] [ inetpro ] [ maco ] [
plars ] [ Tonio_ ]
10:27 [ allee ] [ dagar ] [ itnet7 ] [ maxb ] [
pleia2 ] [ ToyKeeper ]
10:27 [ allison_ ] [ dantalizing ] [ ivoks ] [ mc44 ] [
popey ] [ TREllis ]
10:27 [ Amaranth ] [ DarkwingDuck ] [ james_w ] [ mdeslaur ] [
ppisati ] [ tsimpson ]
10:27 [ amedee ] [ davidcalle ] [ JamieBen1ett] [ mdz ] [
raphink ] [ tumbleweed ]
10:27 [ Ampelbein ] [ Daviey ] [ JanC ] [ merriam_ ] [
rgreening ] [ txwikinger ]
10:27 [ Andre_Gondim ] [ DBO ] [ jcastro ] [ Mez ] [
Riddell ] [ ubottu ]
10:27 [ AndrewMC ] [ debfx ] [ jdstrand ] [ mhall119 ] [
robbiew_ ] [ ubuntulo1 ]
10:27 [ apachelogger ] [ Destine ] [ jelmer ] [ MichealH ] [
rsalveti ] [ UndiFineD ]
10:27 [ apw ] [ dholbach ] [ JFo ] [ mlegris1 ] [
Sarvatt ] [ Ursinha ]
10:27 [ ArneGoetje ] [ DJones ] [ jhunt ] [ MootBot ] [
Sarvatt_ ] [ valorie ]
10:27 [ arun ] [ doko_ ] [ jibel ] [ mvo ] [
sbc ] [ vish ]
10:27 [ avelldiroll ] [ drubin ] [ jibel_ ] [ Nafallo ] [
sbeattie ] [ wallyworld_ ]
10:27 [ ayan ] [ duanedesign ] [ jiboumans ] [ Nakkel ] [
ScottK ] [ wendar ]
10:27 [ azeem ] [ elky ] [ jjohansen ] [ NCommander ] [
Seeker` ] [ wet ]
10:27 [ bazhang ] [ em ] [ Joeb454 ] [ nealmcb ] [
shadeslayer] [ wg ]
10:27 [ bdmurray ] [ evilnhandler ] [ johnc4510 ] [ neversfelde] [
shani ] [ YoBoY ]
10:27 [ bdrung_ ] [ fader_ ] [ jpds ] [ Ng ] [
shirgall ] [ yofel_ ]
10:27 [ bladernr_ ] [ felipe_ ] [ juliux ] [ nhandler ] [
skaet ] [ Zic ]
10:27 [ Bolle1961 ] [ freeflying ] [ jussi ] [ Nicke__ ] [
skfin ] [ zul ]
10:27 [ broder ] [ GatoLoko^ ] [ kees ] [ niekie ] [
sladen ]
10:27 [ cdbs ] [ ghostcube ] [ kenvandine ] [ nigelb ] [
slangasek ]
10:27 [ Chipaca ] [ head_victim ] [ kirkland ] [ niko ] [
smoser ]
10:27 [ chrisccoulson] [ hggdh ] [ Knightlust ] [ nixternal ] [
soren ]
10:27 -!- Irssi: #ubuntu-meeting: Total of 176 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0
voices, 176 normal]
10:27 -!- Channel #ubuntu-meeting created Sun Nov 26 07:42:48 2006
10:27 -!- Irssi: Join to #ubuntu-meeting was synced in 0 secs
10:28 -!- victorp [~vic...@91.189.88.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
10:28 -!- ivanka [~iva...@91.189.88.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting

[10:30] [amedee(+i)] [4:ubuntu/#ubuntu-meeting(+Ccz)] [Act: 1,3]
[#ubuntu-meeting]