New AFDKO build posted, b64958

[Read Roberts]

A new downloadable build of the AFDKO, build 64958, is now available from :

http://www.adobe.com/devnet/opentype/afdko.html

If the pages at the site show an earlier version than Nov 22 b64958, please just a wait a day - it can take time for the data to propagate through the Adobe servers.

This build has improved support for decimal coordinates, and has new internal copies of the Python interpreter: 2.7.10, 64 bit only.

If you downloaded build b64956, posted Friday evening, please get the new one. Ian Tuomi noticed a fatal bug in makeInstancesUFO, and provided a fix.

- Read Roberts

[Richard Fink]

Read wrote:

>A new downloadable build of the AFDKO, build 64958, is now available from :

> http://www.adobe.com/devnet/opentype/afdko.html

I was just updating my hardware - and workflow - to take Windows 10 into account and I got really confused about the installation of AFDKO because of the naming of the file that downloads from the link you've referenced above, and the file you get when you go to GitHub and click the Download Zip button.

https://github.com/adobe-type-tools/afdko

At the first location, when you unpack the zip, you get folder:

FDK-25-WIN.b64958

At the second location, you get a folder named this

afdko-master

which has, inside it, subfolder "FDK" which contains all the goodies and is referenced by exactly that name in the Read_Me_First.html document that outlines the installation procedures.

Now, it's been a long time since I've done a fresh install of Python and the AFDKO and this discrepancy - between the documentation and the name of the folder I had just downloaded from the Adobe devnet site - had me doubting myself from the very beginning.

Also, the Windows installation information in the Read_Me_First.html could be better written and it's XP-centric still and therefore at least partly obsolete and that didn't help either.

But setting the Windows instructions aside - why not just bounce any users looking for the current AFDKO over to GitHub, the same way you do with the Adobe Glyph Lists? 

Why two sources with file downloads with names that don't match?

Just saying....  If it had me on edge - and I'm an expert at Windows configuration, BTW - I'm wondering how edgy the average font designer might get? Very, I would think.

Regards,

Richard Fink

[Read Roberts]

Hi Richard;

I do not try to keep the github source repository root dir  named aligned with the downloadable AFDKO, as they are really quite different things.

The github AFDKO source repository is,  as the repository read-me notes, sources only, batteries definitely NOT included. For example, you need to supply your own Python interpreter, and add a bunch of third party modules, and some of these require compiler tools. Doing anything with this is for software developers only, or at least type developers who are comfortable with Python installation and command line scripts, and OK with keeping their MSDN and Apple Developer Tool up to date.  Also, the naming scheme is limited by the GitHub rules for naming masters and branches.

For the AFDKO, it would be nice if the download unpacked to a directory “FDK”. However, I have had strong requests asking the that the Macand Windows downloads be differentiated by file name. Some users keep multiple copies around, and run virtual machines for different OS’s, so it is useful to not have file name conflicts.

All that said, I am open to suggestions.

- Read Roberts

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[Richard Fink]

OK. Let me look closer and I'll have more to say.

In the meantime, I think the problem lies in the Read_Me_First.html page. If there is a distinction between what's in the repository and the package on devnet, it should be noted in the readme. You see, almost inevitably, anybody installing the AFDKO is going to be drawn to the repository because that's where the Fontlab tools are, and not in the downloadable package. Also, there's no harm in telling users to change the name of the directory after they unpack the zip files to "FDK" so the subsequent instructions don't keep referring to a directory that doesn't exist. 

I'll get back to you on this.  Thanks for the quick response.

Rich

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[Richard Fink]

Read wrote:

>>All that said, I am open to suggestions.

I wrote:

>I'll get back to you on this.  Thanks for the quick response.

I'm back!

A bit of quick explanation: 

What I'm trying to achieve is simply being able to follow the installation instructions written by Thomas Phinney and posted here:

http://store.fontlab.com/index.php?option=com_fss&view=kb&kbartid=13&Itemid=431

And where it says, encouragingly:

"You do not have to be a programmer to make use of these tools! While folks who are at least moderately geeky and technical will get more out of most of these tools, almost anybody who can use FontLab Studio will find value in tools such as TTX, and benefit from some scripts they can run “out of the box.” Once you get this stuff set up, you can install more macros/scripts just by dragging them to the FontLab macros folder, and restarting FontLab Studio."

And, of course, there are even more Fontlab friendly tools listed here:

http://old.fontlab.com/python-scripting/

My motivation is simple. The idea that a type designer would be discouraged or excluded entirely from self-installing the latest Python scripts because there are simply too many unfamiliar ins and outs; too many complexities and opportunities for error; irritates me. And if I can do a few simple things to smooth the way for others as I'm trying to smooth things out for myself, I'd like to do it.  I'm sure you would also.

I think that clearing up just a few foggy issues would help a great deal. And if you like, we could move this conversation elsewhere. I'm going to start with Windows as the OS. I have two Macs but I haven't moved along to them yet. 

To begin - I'd like to ask a couple of questions about the Fontlab tools that, from the Adobe docs, confuses me.

In both of the Read_Me_First.html files - meaning the one in the downloadable devnet package AND the one in the GitHub Repository - it says under item number 3:

3. FontLab scripts

There are some old scripts that provide a dialog for running autohint and checkOutlines within FontLab. These have not been maintained for years, but a few people still use them. It is better to use the command-line versions, which are actively maintained.

To install these, get a copy of the FDK FontLab directory. You can get this by downloading the OpenSource version of the FDK from github at https://github.com/adobe-type-tools/afdko. The FontLab directory is at FDK/Tools/Programs/FontLab. You can also get the FontLab directory by downloading it from Adobe build of the AFDKO (see below in the section "Contacts" for the link). Follow the link to download the FDK; one of the download options will be the FontLab directory.

First, why is the user who downloads the devnet package being sent over to GitHub to get confused? ('Cause that's what happened to me.) Why not just put the "old" Fontlab scripts into the download package to begin with?

Second, what does the phrase, "there are some old scripts", "these have not been maintained for years", and "It is better to use the command line version, which are actively maintained.

Does this mean, essentially, that the Fontlab macros in the GitHub repo are abandonware and that the user is probably better off running the command line versions and piping the output to a text file for review rather than running a sub-optimal version and relying on the convenience of viewing the output in Fontlab?

(And, BTW, I've been successful installing everything so far, except, the AFDKO Fontlab Tools. I can run autohint  and makeotf and all the other stuff at the command line, but I can't seem to get it to show up in Fontlab. It was running fine on my old installation of Fontlab, but when I updated to Fontlab 5.2.2, I decided to start with a clean slate.)

Enough for today. I've cc'd this to Thomas Phinney because, as the author of the installation recipe on Fontlab's web site, he might have something enlightening to contribute. Hopefully he's got time to look this over.

Maybe it's just time to retire the AFDKO Fontlab Macros entirely?

Looking forward to your responses.  And also, BTW, I will be writing up a slightly revised version of the Windows install section in the Read_Me_First.html. I'll send it over in a few days for your review.

Regards,

Rich

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[arno....@gmx.de]

@ Rich

With regard to the FontLab scripts: Miguel has outsourced them a few days ago from the AFDKO repository. And unfortunately the autohint macro does not work anymore since a long time. I really hope, that the bugs in the macro become fixed soon. And also the bugs in the Python script, which you use from the command line.

I am on Windows 7. When I had built the AFDKO from the repository, the main problem was the C compiler. I assume, that the compiler you need for building was natively integrated in Windows XP. But at least on Windows 7 you have to install Visual Studio 2010 Express and, with regard to the Brotli extension, the Microsoft Visual C++ Compiler Package for Python 2.7.

Note, that you should integrate Python 2.7.10 (32 or 64 bit) or 2.7.11 (32 bit, because of a bug in FontLab Studio 5.2).

Install Python 2.7 and copy it to FDK\Tools\win\Python\AFDKOPython27. But when you use FLS 5.0.4, uncheck the option of the installer to set the environment variable.

The rest of the FDK build notes is okay.

And if you use FontLab Studio 5.0.4, you have to install additionally Python 2.3 or 2.4 for the macros. The environment variable has to be set for Python 2.3/2.4 then.

@ Read

I agree with Rich, that there is an unnecessary hurdle with regard to the build process (the compiler). The rest is relatively easy and makeable for users like me or Rich --  for people, that are less experienced in software development than you.

And I think, that the AFDKO can only profit with regard to bug reports, if the number of end users grows. You know, that I have found a few bugs, which were not documented. Some of these bugs like the bugs in the autohint FontLab macro and the bugs in autohint.py are fat bugs in my opinion. Do you agree, that people like Rich or me are important for the development of software with regard to bug reports? I mean, Software should be used, but not programmed only. If the target is not the user, software development is just mindfuck. Well, I don't count you to this kind of developers. And mindfuck can be satisfying (own expreience). But I think, that the communication between software developers and people, that think less abstract, could be better.

[Richard Fink]

Thanks for the update Arno.

I'm glad I got sidetracked away from this now, because it looks like the Fonlab scripts are, indeed, deprecated. ( I assume by "outsource", you mean removed from the source code on the repo - I haven't gone there to look yet.)

I'm still a little mystified by Python - the weirdness resulting from different versions of Python is enough to drive anybody crazy. At least on Windows, for sure.

I'm studying up.

Thanks.

rich  

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[arno....@gmx.de]

Hi Rich,
 

I'm glad I got sidetracked away from this now, because it looks like the Fonlab scripts are, indeed, deprecated.

I don't know, whether the FontLab macros are deprecated. Maybe Miguel has moved them to an own repository, because they require FontLab Studio, which neither is freeware, nor available for Linux.
 

( I assume by "outsource", you mean removed from the source code on the repo - I haven't gone there to look yet.)

Yes.
 

I'm still a little mystified by Python - the weirdness resulting from different versions of Python is enough to drive anybody crazy. At least on Windows, for sure.

As far as I remember, the build notes recommend to install the latest Python 2.7 version, which actually is 2.7.11. FontLab Studio 5.2 does not work with the 64 bit version of Python 2.7.11. If you need Python for FontLab Studio 5.2, it would not make sense to install it twice --  one time for the AFDKO and one time for FontLab Studio 5.2. However, the 32 bit versions works fine with the AFDKO AND FontLab Studio 5.2.

(Just download the AFDKO master branch and integrate Python 2.7.10 32 bit or 2.7.11 32 bit.)

I wrote "install". But that is not the correct term. I only have installed Python, because you have to install it for unpacking the files contained in the installer. But after installation you can make a backup of the Python 2.7 folder. Then you can uninstall Python 2.7. And then you put a copy of the backup in the path Python\AFDKOPython27. The AFDKO is portable.

For the FontLab macros you need Python 2.3 or 2.4, if you use FontLab Studio 5.0.4, because version 5.0.4 does not correctly work with later Python versions. I am not sure, how FontLab Studio checks, whether Python is installed. I have not tried to use a prebuilt version (backup of installation folder) of Python 2.4. I am not sure, whether FontLab finds Python then.

However, if you use FontLab Studio 5.04 with Python and the AFDKO you have to use two Python versions parallel. And these version don't come into the cross.

----------------------------

The best is, if you control the AFDKO with the help of batch scripts, but not directly from the command line.

Then you can command for example:

@echo off
C:\FDK\Tools\win\Python\AFDKOPython27\python.exe C:\FDK\Tools\SharedData\FDKScripts\autohint.py -h

Then it is clear, which Python version is used for the Python script.

[Richard Fink]

I installed Python 2.7.11 over the version (I think it was 2.7.4 but not sure without looking), of Python because I was looking for pip to be preinstalled as a convenience. But it seems to be blocking the launch of Fontlab.  Can't get it open.  

Back to the drawing board....  as they say.  I WILL figure this out. 

Thanks for the tips, I'm taking them seriously. If I run into anything useful on my end, I will post it.

Richard Fink

On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:32 AM, <arno....@gmx.de> wrote:

Hi Rich,
 

I'm glad I got sidetracked away from this now, because it looks like the Fonlab scripts are, indeed, deprecated.

I don't know, whether the FontLab macros are deprecated. Maybe Miguel has moved them to an own repository, because they require FontLab Studio, which neither is freeware, nor available for Linux.
 

( I assume by "outsource", you mean removed from the source code on the repo - I haven't gone there to look yet.)

Yes.
 

I'm still a little mystified by Python - the weirdness resulting from different versions of Python is enough to drive anybody crazy. At least on Windows, for sure.

As far as I remember, the build notes recommend to install the latest Python 2.7 version, which actually is 2.7.11. FontLab Studio 5.2 does not work with the 64 bit version of Python 2.7.11. If you need Python for FontLab Studio 5.2, it would not make sense to install it twice --  one time for the AFDKO and one time for FontLab Studio 5.2. However, the 32 bit versions works fine with the AFDKO AND FontLab Studio 5.2.

(Just download the AFDKO master branch and integrate Python 2.7.10 32 bit or 2.7.11 32 bit.)

I wrote "install". But that is not the correct term. I only have installed Python, because you have to install it for unpacking the files contained in the installer. But after installation you can make a backup of the Python 2.7 folder. Then you can uninstall Python 2.7. And then you put a copy of the backup in the path Python\AFDKOPython27. The AFDKO is portable.

For the FontLab macros you need Python 2.3 or 2.4, if you use FontLab Studio 5.0.4, because version 5.0.4 does not correctly work with later Python versions. I am not sure, how FontLab Studio checks, whether Python is installed. I have not tried to use a prebuilt version (backup of installation folder) of Python 2.4. I am not sure, whether FontLab finds Python then.

However, if you use FontLab Studio 5.04 with Python and the AFDKO you have to use two Python versions parallel. And these version don't come into the cross.

--

[arno....@gmx.de]

[Deleted]

Have a look on the recommendations in the FontLab blog with regard to the Python version, that you should use with FontLab Studio 5.2. Versions later than 2.7.11 are not mentioned in that text.

With regard to PIP: As far as I remember there is an advanced installer mode, in which you can decide, if you want to install PIP.

You could try to clarify that on the FontLab forum. Maybe in a PN to Adam Twardoch.

(When you have written, that you had installed Python 2.7.4, I was irritated first. But then I have realized, that there is not dot between 1 and 0 / 1 and 1 in 2.7.10 / 2.7.11.)

[Richard Fink]

Thanks.

On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:27 PM, <arno....@gmx.de> wrote:

@ Rich

Am Sonntag, 24. April 2016 01:22:52 UTC+2 schrieb arno....@gmx.de:

[Deleted]

Have a look on the recommendations in the FontLab blog with regard to the Python version, that you should use with FontLab Studio 5.2. Versions later than 2.7.11 are not mentioned in that text.

And with regard to PIP: As far as I remember there is an advanced installer mode, in which you can check/uncheck, whether you want to install PIP.