Axe-Fx II vs. 2290 (etc.)

[Jeff Shirkey]

Here's a question for Axe-Fx II (or possibly also Axe Ultra) owners
who have also used/owned TC 2290s. Are the Axe-Fx delays as good as
those in the 2290? I mean down to the last little freakin' detail,
folks. Can you adjust all of the same parameters? Is the sound *spot
on*?

Also: Can you use two delays (two 2290 algorithms, basically) in
parallel (or series, for you nutcases who insist on doing so. ;) )?
Does the Axe-fx have an analog delay algorithm? Basically I'm asking
if it has a Memory Man algo in there somewhere?

Finally: For those of you who just use your Axe-Fx for effects, would
you say they are as good as Eventide's stuff?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thank you,

Jeff

[Karsten Fliegner]

"Can you use two delays (two 2290 algorithms, basically) in parallel (or series, for you nutcases who insist on doing so. ;) )? Does the Axe-fx have an analog delay algorithm? Basically I'm asking if it has a Memory Man algo in there somewhere?"

 

The answer to these questions is yes (I've never owned a 2290 or Eventide device, so I can't answer the other questions).

 

I thought this link to the Axe-Fx II Wiki regarding the controllable delay parameters (and types) might be helpful:

 

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Delay_(FX_block)

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[Jeff Shirkey]

Thanks for your reply, Karsten. I always forget about that fractal
audio wiki.

Jeff

[Karsten Fliegner]

I tried to create for you a screen shot of a preset in Axe-Edit with parallel 2290 delays, but I'm not sufficiently savvy :(

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jeff Shirkey <jcsh...@frontier.com> wrote:

Thanks for your reply, Karsten. I always forget about that fractal audio wiki.

Jeff

[Edgewannabe]

try this link if it doesn't work:

http://tinyurl.com/czzkk9f

On Dec 2, 6:56 pm, Karsten Fliegner <kflieg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried to create for you a screen shot of a preset in Axe-Edit with
> parallel 2290 delays, but I'm not sufficiently savvy :(
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Jeff Shirkey <jcshi...@frontier.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for your reply, Karsten. I always forget about that fractal audio
> > wiki.
>
> > Jeff
>
> > --
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[Jeff Shirkey]

>
> I thought this link to the Axe-Fx II Wiki regarding the controllable
> delay parameters (and types) might be helpful:
>

Request to any Axe II owners: Some clips (or videos) that demonstrate
how the following delay types sound--2290 w/mod (I'm sure Michael has
provided this already, but I'd still like to hear more), analog mono,
vintage digital (with fairly high bit-rate) and mono tape delay.

I'd also love to hear from people who own the Strymon Brigadier, El
Capistan or Timeline who also have tried (or own) the Axe II. Can the
Axe II delays hang with these Strymon products?

Thanks in advance,

Jeff

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 12:15 PM, Edgewannabe wrote:

> try this link if it doesn't work:
>

Both worked. Thanks.

Jeff

[Karsten Fliegner]

Here are a few screen shots that depict graphically the delay parameters (attached). Note the parallel delays. The five screen shots show the five pages of controls for one of the two delays.

I'll try to make some delay demo clips tonight or tomorrow, if I can just displace my son from the Room of Rock.

Jeff

[Jeff Shirkey]

A million thanks, Karsten!

I guess you guys can figure out what I'm considering doing--replacing
my Eventide H8000 with an Axe II. The Eventide is incredible, but it
also has a ton of stuff I don't need. The Axe II is more guitar
friendly.

Jeff

[Karsten Fliegner]

Hence my helpfulness. How can I benefit from Jeff Shirkey's acquisition of an Axe-Fx II? Let me count the ways ;)

Seriously, though, happy to assist any way I can.

Jeff

[Toopy14]

Isn't the Axe full of stuff you don't need?  :-)

[Mjk]

Hahaha I've of those sons as well i will never get my music room back

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[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 2, 2011, at 6:11 PM, Toopy14 wrote:

>
> Isn't the Axe full of stuff you don't need? :-)

Just the amp models. But it's more guitar friendly than the H8000 for
fx. There are hundreds of fx in the H8000 that are just for vocals,
drums, post-production, film/tv...you name it. I just need to be sure
the fx in the Axe are as good as in the 'Tide. Who knows. Some may be
better. Wish I could A/B them. Who wants to loan me their Axe II? :)

If Fractal made a version of the Axe without the amp models, I'd
probably be all over it. I heard they might be doing something like
that, but it's supposed to be a floor unit, I think? Not interested in
that.

Jeff

[Michael O'Hare]

Jeff, I have owned a TC2290 and while I'm was not as experienced with it as Mick, my opinion is the Axe delays are even better.  More flexibility and control over the parameters.  Easier to use and more powerful.  Here is a quick comparison I did of the SDD-3000 (the real vintage one) and the Axe Ultra.  I realize it's not with an amp and I'm not try to prove anything about the preamp tone.  But as far as the delay mod and tone, you can get the Axe to be exactly like it.  I only spent 20 minutes "modeling" the SDD setting that I used in this clip.  If you hear any differences here, you can adjust for it and fix it easily.

Only thing that I haven't tested is whether the Axe can do the super warble that the SDD3k can do.  Not sure yet, haven't tried.  The mod dial on the SDD is super sensitive and can do some wacky stuff.

The TC2290 was a digital delay so I see the Axe as as "TC2290 Plus Pro."  The delays in the Axe are just as good or better than the TC2290.  Again, I can't speak to the output of the tc2290 vs the Axe and effect on the amp.  I'm talking about the delay quality and parameters.

Mick has used the delays in the Ultra for a long time.  Sounds spot on to me every time.

M

[Michael O'Hare]

Ooop, here is the link"

http://soundcloud.com/u2gt/delay-comparison

[Jeff Shirkey]

Thanks for the 2290 info, but how about the analog and tape delays?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Mjk]

2290 and axe are two different units, I don't think there a fair comparison , I own both and I still have 2290 in my rack, the axe was sold, I think mick said it here quite  a while now, it really does depend on playing and amps and experience, at the end of the day it's just opinions 

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[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 10:40 AM, Mjk wrote:

> 2290 and axe are two different units, I don't think there a fair
> comparison ,

They have an algorithm that replicates the 2290--it's actually called
"2290 delay"--so it's quite a legitimate comparison.

Jef

[Mjk]

Yes I know that, but that's not what I meant, one is multi effects unit and amp simulation and other just delay

Sent from my iPhone

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 11:55 AM, Mjk wrote:

> Yes I know that, but that's not what I meant, one is multi effects
> unit and amp simulation and other just delay

As I said, though, I'm not interested in the amp models. I just need
to know about the quality of the fx. I need to know if the delays in
particular are as good as what I already have--the Eventide's 2290
algorithm, as well as the Strymon pedals.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Edgewannabe]

I'm not sure it's that way I would look at it, as a "TC2290
algorithm". I don't know if that is the same way that Eventide uses
algorithms. It's just a set of parameters that FAS has tweaked for
you, using the same parameters that are available in the delay block.
Same as they've probably done with a MXR phaser or a Big Muff fuzz. So
you have something like the Line6 models that are given names after
existing vintage FX. For easier tweaking of course. If that is whay
you mean with algorithms this is a pointless reply from me.

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 12:02 PM, Edgewannabe wrote:

> I'm not sure it's that way I would look at it, as a "TC2290
> algorithm". I don't know if that is the same way that Eventide uses
> algorithms. It's just a set of parameters that FAS has tweaked for
> you, using the same parameters that are available in the delay block.

So, in the Axe, there is one delay block. FAS has then tweaked those
paramaters in various ways and slapped labels on them to describe the
results of those tweaks? "This is our '2290' tweak; this is our analog
delay tweak; this is our tape delay tweak", etc?

If so, no, that's not how Eventide does things. The underlying
architecture of the 2290 delay algorithm is different than, say, the
vintage delay algorithm. Each algorithm is built, from the ground up,
using different fx-building modules, the sum total of which produces a
full fx algorithm. It's not a one-size-fits-all approach, in other
words.

Jeff

[Edgewannabe]

that is the difference I wanted to point out, or suggest at least

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 12:49 PM, Edgewannabe wrote:

> that is the difference I wanted to point out, or suggest at least

Thanks.

It could be that they are simply two different approaches or paths to
the same end. If the Axe's delay block is built in such a way that it
can morph into every desirable delay type by changing its various
parameters, then great. I just need to hear the results.

I keep coming back to the Strymon pedals, too. Take the Brigadier and
the El Capistan. They don't sound anything alike. So, is there one
underlying delay algorithm that Strymon has managed to tweak in
different ways to produce these two pedals? Or are the delays built
differently, so that no amount of tweaking is going to make one sound
like the other?

Jeff

[Edgewannabe]

But reading that, I'm not sure that is what I meant. Because you
mention tape delay and analog delay also. My point is more that you
have to look at it differently than to how Eventide do things, that is
where the algorithm word is used more.

[Michael O'Hare]

It's not an algorithm.  It's just a "preset" of the digital mod delay with different EQ settings (hi, lo cut etc.).  It's not anything other than the Axe digital mod delay with parameters set to get close to the TC2290.  

In a double blind test, I say there is no way you can hear the difference if set up correctly.  Mick gets great delay sounds with all sorts of pedals. To say the SDD or the TC is everything is in my humble opinion not fair. 

M

[Michael O'Hare]

I would like to know exactly what those algorithms or building blocks are.  A simple clean repeat of a note is not something special.  Then you add modulation algorithms.  How different can they really be?  A sine wave is a sine wave and then you adjust amplitude, freq etc.  Guys dont let these companies "sell" you.  I'm a former electrical engineer and there is a lot of marketing on this stuff.  Hardware quality is one thing and software is another, but in a delay you either get a clean replication of the original note or you dont, and you apply mod or you dont.  Quality parts are important.

Back in the CD player days they touted oversampling as some huge advantage.  2x, 3x, 10x!!!!  It was all BS.  More oversampling just meant you could use a cheaper filter to get rid of all the duplicate images you get in A to D conversion.  You get the exact same quality sound at 2x as you do with 10x but you need a more expensive filter to get rid of the duplicate images at 2x than at 10x.   

I think my clip I sent earlier shows how the Axe sounds virtually the exact same as the SDD.  And remember just a slight difference in volume can make you think they are different.  The brain plays a lot of tricks with this stuff.  But it's just math and EQ end of day.  

I'll try to find and send a video on this stuff.

M

Jeff

[Michael O'Hare]

One pedal may have a fixed cut off frequency on either end, or boosted or removed freq within the spectrum, that you can't adjust, so they could sound different just because of the part/filters.  Just a thought.  Unless you see the software/hardware, there is no way to tell.  They could be the same with very slight changes.

Jeff

[Karsten Fliegner]

Seems to me the bottom line question (and one I can't answer) is: are there delay parameters/components (e.g., timing or wave-form options) that are absent from the Axe-Fx but present in the other mentioned units?  If not, it should be possible to recreate the other units pretty much exactly.

A couple of quick samples, FWIW (with attached preset screen shots):

Using An Cat Dubh preset:

http://soundcloud.com/kfliegner/analog-delay-sample

Me noodling to a familiar BT:

http://soundcloud.com/kfliegner/stereo-tape-delay

http://soundcloud.com/kfliegner/2290-sample

Dunno if this is helpful at all, Jeff.

[Jeff Shirkey]

On Dec 3, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Michael O'Hare wrote:

One pedal may have a fixed cut off frequency on either end, or boosted or removed freq within the spectrum, 

I don't know how they do it either, but I do know that bucket brigade delays sound nothing like tape delays and vice versa. How Strymon recreates the sound of bucket brigade and tape delays in the digital realm is also beyond me. But I would think that it's more complicated than just changing EQ or filter settings, etc.

Jeff

[Bob]

Michael, I am not sure what that clip was about. I don't hear any of the unique tone from the units you where testing.

You know I am a fan of your work but not sure if the point was to to say the axe replicates a SDD3000.

Bob

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[Michael O'Hare]

First repeat in each set was the SDD and then the Axe and then back and forth within each set.  

That was the point.  There is no unique tone between them.  This was a comparison of pure delay in two units with all other things in the chain the exact same.

My point was that the delay (repeats and mod) are virtually the same.  I'm not testing the effect of the preamp on the amp (Axe doesnt have the sdd3k preamp but I'm not driving anything in this clip).  It's just guitar into delay into the Liverpool.  I set up the Axe settings to equal the the SDD settings.  The "delay quality" is the same in my opinion.  You really can't hear any difference in the "algorithm" so to speak.  The repeats and mod sound almost exactly alike.

M

[Bob]

Yes I understand the concept of the delay parameters which you tested and agree they do sound similar. I wish I had an Axe FX so as to compare the sonic quality between the units, and I am sure with multi programming capabilities the Axe offers you can nail the SDD3000 pre-amp. 

In my opinion and only my opinion i think the 3KP pedal is the closest to the Korg SDD3000. 

Bob

[Michael O'Hare]

Yep, Axe does not have that type of preamp in it so you likely would need the 3kp pedal with the Axe for that particular tone.  

I guess if I had time to get my amp out, I could compare the sdd3000 with the Axe & Triad together.  That would be the ultimate show down.

M