Heracles decks

[Hunter Hogan]

1. Shian 5/29/2012 http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGBDKoF7gOG6fnvJgogh
   
2. Poktash 5/28/2012 http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAf+gRIGgh+i
   
3. IamaTumor 5/30/2012 http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGG6fnG6gJghfng4G6 Missing the 10th card
   
4. kenigmatic 5/31/2012 http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGgTfnghIR
   

[Hunter Hogan]

Folks, I need your help. As soon as I get two more Gateway Nodes, I will have Heracles. The problem is that I have no idea what I am going to do with him. I do own Svetlana, but I don't own most of the other normal cards people use with Heracles: Mobile Base, Pantheon, Pantheon Shard, or Night Ranger. Yes, have Prism and Kilgore, but so what? I digress.

I need help collecting information about current Heracles decks. I want to see what people are using so I can try to figure out what cards I own that will work with him. I've already posted some decks, and I will post some more decks, but I need some help. (I'm also going to post an "Announcement" that is somewhat related to this,)

[Hunter Hogan]

I uploaded 12 videos to YouTube. They show battles I have fought against Heracles decks. Some of the battles are decks that I already posted in the first post, but I have not transcribed the cards for most of the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjyGm1PmIcQ&list=PL637877C5258E8A0E&feature=view_all

[Hunter Hogan]

I'm uploading three more videos right now. Although, no one has watched any of the first 12, so I get the feeling that these are not interesting to other people. That's cool. 

What I've learned is that I cannot make a normal Heracles deck because I don't have Mobile Base. That is the card that seems to make the difference.

[Tony Zhang]

Agreed - Mobile Bases are extremely important due to their fast rally. Herc begins with low attack in the beginning, and Mobile Base can quickly bring it up. For now, what do you think about rally flags? They would be extremely weak to siege, but might be a possible alternative to Mobile Base?

[Hunter Hogan]

Honestly? I haven't even considered them. I'll take a look at them, but I suspect that they are too fragile. Plus, I dislike the idea of building a deck around one card. TR53 has a good deck, in my opinion, because even though I often kill his Heracles, I can rarely beat him because by time I kill Heracles, Kilgore and his other cards kill me.

[Tony Zhang]

Yes - TR53 looks like quite a nice deck - Solitary Mechs look pretty similar to Sulfuris Sentries - if it flurries, it gets really dangerous. You definitely need mobile bases and other high rally cards for those cards to work though, since their initial attack is even lower than Heracles.

I also remember seeing an Acropolis in a heracles deck one time. What that person did was put it out early, and wait for the enemy Heracles to kill / severely damage himself through counter, think it's quite a neat idea.

[Hunter Hogan]

Quite right about Acropolis. I would generalize that strategy a little more even. Most people try to get Heracles into play as soon as possible and kill everything. Some people intentionally play him as late as possible. I think the second strategy is stronger.

[Hunter Hogan]

I have only seen two Heracles decks that were not just Svetlana decks with Heracles added. (Ok, that's not true. Shian's original Heracles deck had some original elements, but it was terrible. He was playing in a 24-hr tournament and was barely over 50% win rate. He changed the deck (to what, I don't know) and then he went 15-2 or something close to that.)

One original deck was a Sycophant deck Heracles. I don't remember who it was or much about the deck, but as odd as it sounds, the player put a lot of thought into the deck and it was very good.

I just fought Egalisator, and I was impressed with his approach to Heracles. The video is uploading now. It is part of the play list

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjyGm1PmIcQ&list=PL637877C5258E8A0E&feature=view_all 

Or you can skip directly to the video at

http://youtu.be/gGnHeazCpjw 

(I'm on a slow upload connection, so may not be available for another 20-30 minutes.)

[Hunter Hogan]

I just fought him/her again. The deck is very good. Second video is uploading.

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=QVIGJ9+ifn+iJ5I4+iF7+i

[Tony Zhang]

Sycophant deck Heracles? It sounds... very weird. What would be the point of Heracles? To kill and "control the board" while the Sycophants fear through slowrolls?

[Hunter Hogan]

Oops. I thought I replied to this already. I am not sure what the goal was, but against my strike deck, it was fantastic. My strike deck almost always destroyed Sycophant decks--because of Intercept. On the other hand, Heracles would cause problems with Evade. Combined with the Intercept it was brutal. I would easily kill the Sycophant, but I couldn't touch Heracles. Properly placed Adamantite Armor and Rally All action cards would kill my Assault cards and Heracles would walk over and stab Atlas in the heart. I have no idea if it would work against other types of decks. I have not seen it recently, so that makes me think it died against other decks.

[Hunter Hogan]

Some of my attempts at Heracles decks

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=QVIGfn+iCIG6+iBc+iHvHL 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=P5IGfn+iCIHLHvJ3G6+iBc 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGfn+iCIgJG6+iHLBc+i 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGfn+iCIHLHvJ3G6+iBc 

[lokolopo2]

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGCIG6BcgOgh+i

[Hunter Hogan]

Very interesting. Since I don't have Mobile Base or Pantheon, I don't completely understand their strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, I have a question.

This deck only has seven cards, but Pantheon takes three turns to activate. Since it is not a wall, until it activates it has almost no value. Does this cause you problems? Do you sometimes wish that it were active sooner? If so, why not use Pantheon Shard or Prism? If waiting three turns is not a problem, why not use Waypoint?

I like both Cannon Walker and Heli-Duster, and I also use both. But part of the reason I use both is because I don't have enough of either card to exclusively use one or the other. I assume you have two of each card, so I am curious why you decided to use one of each instead of picking one or the other. 

[Hunter Hogan]

I'm testing Heracles with strike. It is ok. I don't have Mobile Base or a lot of other normal Heracles cards, so I can't compare it to those decks.

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=P9IGCIAeBnJwJLIMJyHTJ5

Because of strike, Heracles rarely gets to use Burst. But his fast speed, high health (for Wait 1), Swipe, and Evade are all strong. If Heracles can work well in a strike deck, it will have to be a better deck than this one.

[Jackdaw]

I think IamaTumor uses Kilgore, not sure.

I'm thinking of a build like this once I get Heracles:

Svetlana: Pantheon Shard, Mobile Basex2, Adamantite Armor, Heracles, Heli-Duster, Kilgore, Command Centerx2, Acropolis

[stylejunkie]

i'm using a built like this
Svetlana,Helidusterx2, Herc, CCx2, Acropolis, Mobilebase, Prism, Pantheon and Mortar Bunker
and it kinda sucks...although counterwalls may kill or wound some assaults ,protect1 saves everything and if i get my assault units late i'm left without walls for protection.
It's only god if i have acropolis , pantheon and mobile base early to get me ready for full attack.
I've tried smaller decks with these cards but it's easy to lose even to a normal strike deck if you have 2walls and Herc to protect you and the enemy has 5-6 activated assault units
Anyway still trying to find a good to work for me....

[Hunter Hogan]

In math terms, your problem is that the standard deviation is too high for drawing your Assault cards. You can either increase your Assault cards, or you can decrease your total cards. Your deck might be a good candidate for cutting in half.

Svetlana

Heracles

Acropolis 

Heli-Duster x 2 

Command Center x 2

Mobile Base almost equals Mortar Bunker

Prism almost equals Pantheon 

Maybe:

Svetlana

Heracles

NOT Acropolis 

Heli-Duster x 1

Command Center x 1

Mobile Base OR Mortar Bunker

Prism OR Pantheon 

Or something like that.

Alternatively, you can use this card:

 

[Gowald]

I like to use in my deck:

Svet
5 Assaults
4 Structures (3 rally/wall & 1 protect)
1 Action Card

It's very frustrating not getting an assault until turn 10 or higher, so I like to maximize my chances.

[Hunter Hogan]

Thank you for this formula. I tried playing around with it, and I was surprised how accurate it is. In my opinion very few decks can be reduced to a formula like this, so I was skeptical, but this is an excellent starting point for building a Heracles deck. If you just got Heracles, or you are like me and are frustrated with your Heracles deck(s), I recommend starting with this setup. I gained some valuable insights by playing with this arrangement. 

Thanks!

[Hunter Hogan]

Some more Heracles decks I have tried. I keep messing with things because I don't like anything I have built. I have built decks without Longshot, and they seem to work fine. I think because I got Longshot first, I am emotionally attached to it.

Dracorex based (lame)

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=QVIGfn+iCIHvJ9gqJ5Bc+i

Svetlana decks (in general, Svetlana seems to be the best. In a tournament, some of these decks are better than others. For example, lots of Sycophant? Walls are great.)

[For my convenience, the links are first, and the images are second.]

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGgJfngoHvG6+jCIvJ 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGfn+iCIHvG6+iBc+iJ5 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGfn+iCIHvG6+iBc+iJL 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGfn+iCIHvG6+iBc+ivJ 

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGCIgJfWgq 

[Hunter Hogan]

Building on the Svetlana decks in the post above, this is my current tournament deck. I don't like it. It is a top 10% deck, but it is not as overpowering as other Heracles decks. [I've tried edit as I wrote this, but I'm too tired to do a full proofread right now. Sorry: maybe later.]

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGHvG6+iCIfn+iJ5BcIn

[Side note about inserting deck images: on the Fansite deck page, right click the image above and select copy image url. That is the fastest way to insert this image. Don't forget to change to original size so we can see it!]

First, the tournament meta has changed: except for Heracles decks, most Structure-intensive decks have disappeared. Slow Righteous with two to four structures are much less common. Bacon and Eggs (Utopia Beacon and Earthquake Generator) is nearly dead. Wallstall has stalled. When I first got Heracles, my super-fast Siege was devastating to many different decks and I did very well with Cannon Walker and Heli-Duster.

Things have changed. I feel like there are only five types of decks:

1. Heracles
2. Strike that is primarily based on Assault cards (rather than Structure cards like Earthquake Generator)
3. Sycophant (not Grim Specter)
4. Noob decks
5. "Other"

Some of the "other" decks are excellent, but that is often because the player who designed it and is playing it is an excellent player. Let's be honest: the first three deck archetypes do not require any deck-building skills and they only require minimal skill to choose which of three cards to play on any given turn. "Should I play Sycophant or Sycophant or Full Power?" Many of the decks in the "other" category are too sophisticated for most players, so they do not turn into mainstream decks; furthermore, nearly all of the good decks in the "other" category require serious War Bonds. My point: when you are designing your tournament deck, if you don't account for the "other" decks, you will not consistently break into the top 10%.

But this thread is about Heracles decks, so let's return to explicitly talking about the deck above, why I am using it, and why I don't like it.

Because of the dramatic shift away from Structures, I have less Siege. Against other Heracles decks, however, my fast Siege is often my advantage. Killing Mobile Base is often devastating to enemy Heracles, but because of Refresh, I must have two activated Siege cards that hit the base in the same turn. This can be difficult when multiple structures are in play. When fighting Heracles, I sometimes wish I had more Siege, but Cannon Walker and Heli-Duster are weak against almost every other common deck, so this is the balance I have settled for right now. Also, some games I like having two Heli-Duster and one Cannon Walker, and other games, I wish it were the other way around. It's frustrating.

Longshot is a bit of a strange card in this deck. In a significant number of games (more than half?), I hold Longshot and don't play it until the end of the game--when it is basically unnecessary because I have already won. I have built Heracles decks without Longshot and used a Raider Assault card or Structure instead, and those decks have been successful, too. On the other hand, in many games, Longshot makes it impossible for me to lose. When playing against Heracles, if I can keep the enemy Rally structures under control, then my opponent cannot kill Longshot, and I slowly win the game (Disease in the enemy deck can neutralize Longshot, though). Against Strike decks, an early Longshot can give me the edge and force my opponent to play Iron Maiden early in the game. But I might be biased towards Longshot: I was one of the first players to get it, I won a lot of games during that time, and I love the card. I might be overestimating Longshot's value, so especially if you are using Command Center (like I am!), you might want to look for a Raider Assault card (Night Ranger?).

This is a good time to mention a major reason my Heracles deck is so different than other Heracles decks: I don't own many of the typical Heracles cards. I have purchased a ton of Homeworld packs, but I don't have Mobile Base. I don't own Pantheon or Pantheon Shard. I don't have Adamantite Armor (which actually look like a good card for Heracles) or Night Ranger. So I have an approach to Heracles.

I have to admit that I irrationally hate Kilgore. I am always looking for something other than Kilgore, but it is just too versatile to ignore. Against Dracorex or Dalia, he can still attack (Dalia takes him to zero, but Svetlana Rally 1, then maybe add Burst 2); against Armored (Thunder Crag!) and Protect, he can Pierce; and against Refresh/Heal, Disease is great. Wait 2 is annoying, but Health 6 is good against Strike.

Teslatank is necessary to deal with Sycophant. Swipe and Enfeeble give me a chance to beat Sycophant. Wait 2 is annoying and Health 4 is a problem against Strike, but Armored 1 is good against Strike Decks. If Teslatank is in front of Ravenous Dredge and Teslatank has Protect 1, then Ravenous Dredge cannot damage and Poison Teslatank. 

And the latest addition is Obliterator.

The primary reason for this card is Sycophant. Teslatank can wipe out a ton of Sycophants, but only if it is activated. An activated Command Center is strong against Sycophant, but it almost impossible for one to survive long enough to activate. So far, Obliterator has been very useful against Sycophant, and, even better, it has been useful in all types of situations. Strike decks usually have cards with Attack 1, so when their Attack 1 becomes Attack -1, Rally isn't very useful (e.g., Ravenous Dredge and Mortar Bunker). It doesn't have Intercept (like Longshot), but it has Health 9 and Evade, so at worst, it soaks up a lot of damage and gives me time to activate other cards. In the long run, I'm not sure that this card will stay in the deck, but for now, it is useful.

Because of Obliterator and Longshot, I am considering Acropolis. I don't like the longer wait or the lower health, but I do like the extra attack for Longshot and the extra counter damage against Sycophant. 

This deck is relatively weak against Strike, which is a shame. The low Health and Attack of Heli-Duster and Cannon Walker can be a major problem. In tournaments with more strike, I might add Maximum Damage, Prism, and/or Mortar Bunker, but the Fast Siege aspect of the deck means it will always struggle against Strike more than other Heracles decks struggle against strike. 

Against many other Heracles decks, I have the advantage, but some Heracles decks nearly always kill me. My main advantage against other Heracles is Siege, but if they use Impulse Walker, then I lose that advantage and I usually die. Switching to Cannon Walker is not great, however, because Heli-Duster has a chance of Flying over Swipe and damaging or killing Heracles. Cannon Walker will always get hit but can survive one non-Rally Kilgore Burst or one non-Rally Heracles Swipe.

If I want to dramatically change this deck without using War Bonds, I think my only two options are Mobile Base and Undertaker. Every other card I think might improve the deck requires War Bonds. Maybe that will change with the mystery 90-card set that will allegedly be released soon, but right now, I believe that Heracles needs multiple War Bond cards to regularly break the Top 5% barrier. (I do have Svetlana, which is a War Bond card--I won some War Bonds during the time when I had Longshot and no one else did; now you know why I am so attacked to Longshot!)

[bu...@3p-online.de]

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=SAIGG6gh+ig4fn+iG6BD+i

This deck is the most dangerous attempt on a Heracles deck I came across so far.

[Hunter Hogan]

Yeah, that looks like a strong deck. I like that it has Siege, Disease, and AntiAir, and that is it is super fast. I use Cannon Walker, but Impulse Walker is even faster, obviously.

I can't build the deck to test it, so if someone has experience playing it or fighting against it, can you tell me (us) about a few things?

1. This seems relatively vulnerable to Strike, especially if the enemy gains the initiative. Armored 1 is not going to protect Impulse Walker from Strike. True, Svetlana and Pantheon Shard have protection, but if Strike gets the initiative and has more Strike cards that are active than this Heracles deck has active, then it seems that Strike might be able to destroy four of the five assault cards.
2. Which brings me to my next question: does this have the right mix of Assault, Structure, Action, and on Play cards? Earlier in this thread, Gowald posted a base "formula", and this deck follow the formula pretty well but not exactly. Four of the five Assault cards are pretty fragile, and I would like to know how to deal with that problem.
3. How does it handle Sycophant? With five structures, it is possible but rare that you will not draw an Assault card until your third turn. and only three of the Structure cards are walls, and only two of those walls have Counter 1. Only Heracles has swipe, and no one has Pierce. Is Sycophant pretty much an automatic loss? If not, how do you handle them?
4. What do you do against other Heracles?
5. [My brain is dead, suddenly: I swear I had another question.]

In any event, thank you for sharing, I had not seen this exact variation, and it does look strong. I wish I could build it!

[Lucas Eisenberg]

Heracles decks can be further improved with the recent release of the Awakening Pack. With my current cardpool I've come up with this deck. I can say from experience it works quite well in standard tournament (and also as a surge deck.)

http://tyrant.40in.net/kg/deck.php?nid=IGBcG6fn+igh+iLhg4vr

[Hunter Hogan]

Very interesting. A few questions. 

1. You accidentally left the commander out. I assume you use Svetlana. 
2. I generally see the usefulness of Typhon's Orders, but can you tell us a little more about it? What type of situation(s) would cause you to play it? 
3. Radio Officer is a strong card, but it seems incredibly slow for this deck. Why is it not slow?
   
4. Does Sycophant eat you alive?
5. I love both Cannon Walker and Heli-Duster, and I use both of them. You only have two slots for Wait-1 Assault cards. Why did you decide to choose one of each instead of two Heli-Duster or two Cannon Walker?

Thanks!

P.S. inserting deck images from the Fansite is pretty easy, just take a look at this post.

[Lucas Eisenberg]

1. Yes, I do use Svetlana, sorry for leaving that out.

2. Typhon's Orders is a good drop against a first drop Neverender, when you might need some extra damage done to something (with the strike 2), need some extra protect, or want Salvager and its Heal 1 soon.

3. Radio Officer can often survive if played next to Heracles and even sometimes without Hera's support. Once it activates (which it manages to do more often than you would think) like you said, it's a very strong card.

4.Sycophants are iffy. As long as I get Heracles, a Command Center and a Mobile Base early I win, but like most Svetlana decks, Sycos can be a weak spot. I say I beat them about half the time.

5. Why have two of the same card when the different ones each have different advantages? Heli-Duster is useful for its disease and flying, while CW's AA can devastate Support Carriers, Pods and other fliers. Also, their combined Siege can tear down structures pretty effectively. 

[Aszyre]

5. Why have two of the same card when the different ones each have different advantages? Heli-Duster is useful for its disease and flying, while CW's AA can devastate Support Carriers, Pods and other fliers. Also, their combined Siege can tear down structures pretty effectively.

Not to mention if you find that one is becoming more useful than the other, you'll know exactly when/why and you can swap for two of him. SCIENCE!

[oienoien]

I'm not going to reveal faction mate's decks, but I'd say Svetacles is dead and Dracorex reigns supreme once again. Herc + steadfast + summon spam beats everything except for fear.

[Golden119]

3 weeks on, I am still using Svetacles to get regular top 10% finishes. I have no use for Gold or Capacitors, so no desire to take the deck further, although I have little doubt it could make it. The only tourney deck I lose to more often than not is Sycophants, so if anything reigns supreme, it is them!

To be fair I haven't seen a memorable Herc/SFC/Summon deck, and maybe it beats pure Raider - but Svet/Herc is not dead yet.

[Golden119]

Interestingly, less than 12 hours after the above post, the 2h Standard I entered had such a glut of Sycophants that I had to change my deck. It was basically Svetlana, Heracles and 4 structures. You could get unlucky vs slowrolls with flyers, but Sycos were much easier. I did lose to 1 wallstall with the short deck though. If I'd had any healing, maybe different story.

I don't know whether the Syco flood was a fluke, or the way things are heading in tourneys, but I still got 10% with Svet/Herc.