The behavior on this group has changed significantly since Ryan
finally admitted that Whitelisting no longer exists. I've never seen
anyone discuss methods of getting around TOS before, well there was
Edward H., and we saw what happened to him. Now there are free flowing
discussions of MTurk and other tricks to go way beyond the rate
limits. I think this is great. Frankly, Twitter has done a good job of
offering free resources to devs, which I thank them for, but there was
way too much fear before. Now there are no extra benefits that can be
given and withdrawn "on a case by case basis." Boy do I hate that
phrase. Of course, they can ban people from this list, but maybe the
irony of Twitter blocking free speech on their own forum may restrain
that urge in the future.
Personally, I've treated Whitelisting like Social Security. It ain't
going to be there when I need it. That has turned out to be a winning
strategy. I don't really violate TOS, since I'm not as spammer, but I
have never tried building anything that would fail if Twitter didn't
give me Whitelisting "after it got into production", which BTW was the
most disrespectful thing I've seen from a platform vendor. Everyone
should assume that you need to use what is there by default, and
always be ready with a workaround if that gets taken away. My gut
tells me that things will get worse before they get better. Twitter HQ
will be under huge pressure to make money before the IPO, and we are
likely to get some of the cuts. The inevitable "they are parasites
leeching off of us" will surface. Anyone here old enough to remember
Ed Esber? But in the long run, I've never seen a global phenomenon
like Twitter, so I'm in it for the next 10 years at least. Then I can
retire.
Let's keep the discussion open guys. They've already taken away the
most important thing you wanted. Now we can build with our eyes open.
And don't be afraid to speak up. This is Twitter. Revolutions happen
here.
Adam Green
Twitter API Consultant and Trainer
http://140dev.com
@140dev
--
Twitter developer documentation and resources: http://dev.twitter.com/doc
API updates via Twitter: http://twitter.com/twitterapi
Issues/Enhancements Tracker: http://code.google.com/p/twitter-api/issues/list
Change your membership to this group: http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk
Now, Twitter and it's API groups claim that, they, are putting artificial limits of rates to ensure proper delivery for regular service.
User Streams is in fact in production and has been for months. The only
restrictions on User Streams, other than what's documented in the
technical documentation, is that it is *only* for desktop *clients*, not
servers or mobile. I'm not sure where iPad fits in this spectrum, but
for sure an iPhone is mobile.
*Site* Streams is designed for servers and it is still in beta. Perhaps
you need to be pitching your idea to Twitter and adapting your service
to Site Streams if it's a server-backed app, which I'm guessing an
iPhone/iPad app would be.
> That said, Twitter's API evolution
> practices, presumably approved by their CTO, Mr. Sarver, are not, in
> my opinion, helping their partners grow with Twitter.
[snip]
> Another example is the closed roll-out of promoted tweets. I think
> every third party app developer would love to find a way to further
> monetize their Twitter application. Twitter did announce that they
> would find a way to allow their developer partners to participate
> with
> the promoted tweets program. That has not yet happened. Currently, as
> Twitter has made a floor price of $0.00 for iOS apps, I have to
> resort
> to Apple's iAds to capture revenue from my labors. I don't mind but
> it
> does cut my other market-making partner, Twitter, out of the revenue
> stream. As it reduces my revenue opportunities, I think this is
> sub-optimal. I win when my partner wins.
The key word in this rant is "partner". A *partner* is, IMHO, someone
who has a *formal* partnership arrangement. Sure, there's a certain
formality when you accept Twitter's TOS, but I think if you want to use
Site Streams or Promoted content, you should be negotiating as a
business with Twitter as a business. What's in it for Twitter?
Twitter has built a powerful brand. I was there in early 2007 when the
vast majority of pundits predicted that it would go nowhere - that it
was just a bunch of Ruby hackers with too much time on their hands, that
it would destroy flow, etc. It's now one of the top ten sites world wide
according to Alexa. If you want to be a "partner" with Twitter, *you*
are the one who needs to have something to offer *them* IMHO.
[snip]
> Overall, everyone needs to remember that we are dealing with a
> company that publicly claims to not yet be trying to capture revenue
> from their platform.
I seem to have missed that claim. As far as I know, they *are* trying
to capture revenue through a combination of Promoted Accounts, Tweets
and Trends with bundled analytics and data licensing.
> What do I want? I want a better developer experience. Both Apple and
> Microsoft show what a good experience can be. I want user streams, a
> promoted tweet API and annotations. I hope Twitter can deliver these
> technical features to enable new business opportunities for
> themselves
> and the Twitter app ecosystem. Myself included.
I think you have User Streams, though it may not be suitable for your
specific application. You may be eligible to get in the Site Streams
beta, although I'm guessing that was invite-only. You can always ask -
as a business negotiating a partnership with another business.
We'll have to wait and see about the Promoted products. Advertising
sales is a fiercely competitive business and it's not something I
personally want to deal with at the moment.
Annotations? That was definitely a case where Twitter's reach seems to
have exceeded its grasp. The story I've heard is that there are people
in Twitter hacking away on it but the priorities do get adjusted
according to the demands of the marketplace. If it could be a
breakthrough spam killer, I think they'd push it front and center in a
big hurry. ;-)
--
http://twitter.com/znmeb http://borasky-research.net
"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems." -- Paul
Erdős
If Twitter wants to be embedded into the infrastructure of
corporations around the world, they must have outside developers. If
they want it to be a cool toy for the Kardashians and Justin Beiber to
amuse their fans. They don't need us at all. It is their choice.
> --
> Twitter developer documentation and resources: http://dev.twitter.com/doc
> API updates via Twitter: http://twitter.com/twitterapi
> Issues/Enhancements Tracker:
> http://code.google.com/p/twitter-api/issues/list
> Change your membership to this group:
> http://groups.google.com/group/twitter-development-talk
>
--
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:18:11 -0600, "Andrew W. Donoho" <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It is clear from this thread that many developers made, perhaps
>> unwisely, product plans based on Twitter's continued support for white
>> listing. In my case as a client developer, the increase of my API
>> count from 150/hour to 350/hour due to moving to OAuth totally removed
>> my need for white listing. If user streams was supported, I could
>> easily live with 150/hour limit. If they would stand behind their user
>> streams API, I would switch to it immediately. (Beta status is not,
>> frankly, good enough. If they cannot make a commitment to their new
>> API, why should I? By my count, user streams has been in beta for
>> almost 6 months.)
>
> User Streams is in fact in production and has been for months. The only restrictions on User Streams, other than what's documented in the technical documentation, is that it is *only* for desktop *clients*, not servers or mobile. I'm not sure where iPad fits in this spectrum, but for sure an iPhone is mobile.
>
> *Site* Streams is designed for servers and it is still in beta. Perhaps you need to be pitching your idea to Twitter and adapting your service to Site Streams if it's a server-backed app, which I'm guessing an iPhone/iPad app would be.
Mr. Borasky,
Any API where the very first line in the schema section says it is "subject to change" is not, in fact, in production. Now it may be due to sloppy documentation but I doubt it. Twitter's documentation process has become much better.
IOW, user streams is in beta. If it is production worthy, then Twitter should commit to it. This API, until they version the route, should no longer be subject to change.
>> That said, Twitter's API evolution
>> practices, presumably approved by their CTO, Mr. Sarver, are not, in
>> my opinion, helping their partners grow with Twitter.
>
> [snip]
>
>> Another example is the closed roll-out of promoted tweets. I think
>> every third party app developer would love to find a way to further
>> monetize their Twitter application. Twitter did announce that they
>> would find a way to allow their developer partners to participate with
>> the promoted tweets program. That has not yet happened. Currently, as
>> Twitter has made a floor price of $0.00 for iOS apps, I have to resort
>> to Apple's iAds to capture revenue from my labors. I don't mind but it
>> does cut my other market-making partner, Twitter, out of the revenue
>> stream. As it reduces my revenue opportunities, I think this is
>> sub-optimal. I win when my partner wins.
>
> The key word in this rant is "partner".
Let me be very clear. The term "rant" was applied by the opening poster.
I am pointing out what I think are concrete issues which we all, as business partners with Twitter should consider. That is not a rant.
> A *partner* is, IMHO, someone who has a *formal* partnership arrangement. Sure, there's a certain formality when you accept Twitter's TOS, but I think if you want to use Site Streams or Promoted content, you should be negotiating as a business with Twitter as a business. What's in it for Twitter?
The ToS is a contract. I've also based my business on Twitter's APIs. I view the APIs and other aspects of the relationship I have with Twitter to effectively be a partnership. Twitter, as the senior partner in this relationship, barely knows I exist.
As to what's in it for Twitter? They have support a public API because it makes their product better. And they do want people like me making their and my product better.
> Twitter has built a powerful brand. I was there in early 2007 when the vast majority of pundits predicted that it would go nowhere - that it was just a bunch of Ruby hackers with too much time on their hands, that it would destroy flow, etc. It's now one of the top ten sites world wide according to Alexa. If you want to be a "partner" with Twitter, *you* are the one who needs to have something to offer *them* IMHO.
And, I believe I do. I suspect that you believe you offer them value and vice versa or you would not waste your time on this list. This email and those of other developers do improve their product. Every bug discovered helps their product.
Are we suckers? Perhaps. Overall, I have profited from this arrangement. I wish Twitter well and I hope they improve their relationship with the developer community.
>
> [snip]
>
>> Overall, everyone needs to remember that we are dealing with a
>> company that publicly claims to not yet be trying to capture revenue
>> from their platform.
>
> I seem to have missed that claim. As far as I know, they *are* trying to capture revenue through a combination of Promoted Accounts, Tweets and Trends with bundled analytics and data licensing.
"Stone, reacting to a question from TechEye, said that there was still so much the company wanted to do, including proving that it had a viable financial and sales profile."
OK, so I misremembered the quote. What is clear is that they haven't even proven to themselves that they have a business.
>> What do I want? I want a better developer experience. Both Apple and
>> Microsoft show what a good experience can be. I want user streams, a
>> promoted tweet API and annotations. I hope Twitter can deliver these
>> technical features to enable new business opportunities for themselves
>> and the Twitter app ecosystem. Myself included.
>
> I think you have User Streams, though it may not be suitable for your specific application. You may be eligible to get in the Site Streams beta, although I'm guessing that was invite-only. You can always ask - as a business negotiating a partnership with another business.
As I say above, user streams is not in production. Yes, they just have to remove a single sentence and declare it done but they haven't done that. Mature engineering organizations do promote items formally to production. As my app does not need user streams, I can wait until they are ready to commit to it. It is a modest extension of my code. As white listing was one of those "nether" commitments, I am not surprised that it has been withdrawn. Site streams may be what all of the white list dependent folks need. But, Twitter canceled white listing without making site streams widely available. That is an example of an API evolutionary stumble.
> We'll have to wait and see about the Promoted products. Advertising sales is a fiercely competitive business and it's not something I personally want to deal with at the moment.
The point of Twitter encouraging me to show promoted tweets, as they said was their goal, is to enhance each or our revenue streams. They do the sales and I do the display. Seems pretty easy to me.
> Annotations? That was definitely a case where Twitter's reach seems to have exceeded its grasp. The story I've heard is that there are people in Twitter hacking away on it but the priorities do get adjusted according to the demands of the marketplace. If it could be a breakthrough spam killer, I think they'd push it front and center in a big hurry. ;-)
A mature engineering organization backs away from things they aren't going to do. Fortunately, my business does not depend upon annotations. I could do interesting things with annotations.
Let me be very clear. Twitter is a great resource. Could they be a great company? Perhaps. But to be a great company means you have great partners. If you look at Apple, Microsoft, IBM and Oracle, great companies all, they have significant partner ecosystems. Those partners make those companies great -- and vice versa.
Anon,
Andrew
____________________________________
Andrew W. Donoho
Donoho Design Group, L.L.C.
a...@DDG.com, +1 (512) 750-7596
"We did not come to fear the future.
We came here to shape it."
-- President Barack Obama, Sept. 2009
Well, I'm old enough but I was doing something radically different from
Ashton-Tate at the time. This whole thread is starting to sound eerily
similar to last year, when Fred Wilson made the infamous "filling holes"
blog post, followed by Twitter buying Tweetie, followed by Chirp. I'd be
surprised if the *Twitter* ecosystem could support 10,000 independent
developers - they'd self-organize into businesses with some sort of
power law size distribution, where the largest such business is Twitter
itself.
I don't know that Twitter "wants to be embedded into the infrastructure
of corporations." It seems to me that Twitter is unique and not at all
suited to intra-enterprise communications. Besides, there are dozens of
enterprise software platforms that can do everything Twitter can do
except talk to the hundreds of millions of Twitter users in real-time.
;-)
Maybe I am thinking too small, but then again, people aren't coming to
*me* with problems big enough to require whitelisting, or for that
matter Cassandra, or MapReduce, or sending thousands of DMs a day. Even
if they did, there's no way I could compete with Twitter. I really
should save this for my blog - it's been a while since I wrote a post
about Twitter, and that's what my search analytics tell me people read
there. ;-)
I have an idea. Why doesn't Twitter hire a developer relations person?
Not a support person. Matt and Taylor do a good job of technical
support. I appreciate what they do. I mean someone who could run a
developer program. I haven't seen someone like that yet. Could some of
the $200 million pay that salary?
I look forward to your blog post on this, Edward.
My impression is that this is exactly the sort of thing @anywhere was
designed to do - make it possible for a CNN or even the Original Coffee
Brake to incorporate Twitter into their web site with a budget of, say,
8 hours of HTML editing time. ;-) I haven't kept up with how well
@anywhere is fulfilling that promise, though. I ran it for a long time
on my blog but shut it down because the trips to Twitter's servers were
slowing down page loads. I should probably revisit that now that I'm
starting to get traffic again.
> Multiply that by every TV show, radio program,
> newspaper, magazine, movie, real estate office, hospital, retailer,
> you get the point. There are way more than 10,000 programmers who
> work
> on websites and mobile apps around the world. They are all possible
> Twitter developers, among other tasks they did.
I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in PDX, the skills
that are in huge demand are HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript and user interface
design. We've got a small collection of people who "do stuff with
Twitter", but you don't see help wanted ads for Twitter API coding -
that's something people do in their "spare time". Most folks use Twitter
the old-fashioned way - from the web app or from a client - or license a
monitoring platform that talks to Twitter and Facebook.
> Too big an idea?
> Maybe, but with the right assistance from Twitter, there would be
> enough developers that when a competitor comes along Twitter would
> have a base that would make it hard to switch. That is what we offer
> them.
I think it would be harder for a competitor to get Twitter's millions
of active subscribers than to get thousands of developers. ;-) I was
just looking at the Alexa statistics - Twitter is in 9th place
world-wide now.
Who's ahead of us? Twitter is just below the huge Chinese site
Baidu.com. Neither Facebook nor Twitter is active in China, although I
have seen accounts claiming to be from Guangzhou. Next up the ladder is
Wikipedia. In short, it's been a long climb since March of 2006 to get
there, and there's a lot of power above Twitter -
Google/Youtube/Blogger, Yahoo, Microsoft, Facebook, Wikipedia and
Baidu.com. Twitter is, as they say, running with the big dogs. And we're
ahead of Aol. ;-)
> I have an idea. Why doesn't Twitter hire a developer relations
> person?
> Not a support person. Matt and Taylor do a good job of technical
> support. I appreciate what they do. I mean someone who could run a
> developer program. I haven't seen someone like that yet. Could some
> of
> the $200 million pay that salary?
Maybe again I'm thinking small, but I have yet to run up against
anything that Twitter did that seriously impacted me. Twitter's not like
Microsoft, Android or Apple where you need a huge standardized SDK /
MSDN-like library. The one thing I'd want as an independent developer
would be some kind of keyword tools along the lines of what Google
provides for webmasters. I can easily determine what people tweet about
but I *can't* determine what they search for. Oh, yeah - a Streaming
endpoint that delivers the overall tweets per minute every minute, so I
can draw pretty graphs in real time like Carolyn Penner did on the
Twitter blog.
http://blog.twitter.com/2011/02/superbowl.html