客家與匈奴
竹風
這篇文章澄清了客人來源的疑點,
的確, 漢人只是一個統稱, 但客人是漢民族的一支應無誤.
但也不能否認某些客人有匈奴的血統.
--
* Origin: ★ 交通大學資訊科學系 BBS ★ <bbs.cis.nctu.edu.tw: 140.113.23.3>
客家優先
==> 在 cxlin@cis_nctu (竹風) 的文章中提到:
> 這篇文章澄清了客人來源的疑點,
> 的確, 漢人只是一個統稱, 但客人是漢民族的一支應無誤.
> 但也不能否認某些客人有匈奴的血統.
世界各民族的DNA排列99%相同
白人黑人黃種人都是同一祖先
甚至猴子猩猩也是我們的堂兄表親
我想你也不能否認某些閩人有猴子的血統(如果按照您的推論模式)
--
交大客家板板主 Redding
新竹客家網站:http:\\www.geocities.com\tokyo\ginza\2168\index.htm
公元1199年南下之北方漢族,1730年東渡台灣,新竹關西客家人(1970生)
祖籍 廣東省饒平縣下善鄉嶺腳社, 溝通語言:海陸,饒平,四縣,北京語
關西國小 關西國中 建國中學 交通大學 工研院 永遠的義民爺子孫
客家恆久遠 母語永流傳................................長長久久
Engineer
太平天國 忠王 李秀成 為該政權重要人物 所以其兵法 世系 是有人
對其作深入研究的
據太平天國 忠王李秀成 家族譜, 他南遷的遠祖為南宋 倒數第二任宰相
(文天祥前一任) 李廷芝 的後代. (李秀成 應是為 李廷芝 的
21 世孫.)
據該族譜記載 而李廷芝 出生於河南 是為唐皇室裔 , 宋封唐皇室裔
家族於河南 一面安撫 一面就近監視.
而李淵家族 據該族譜稱是與漢朝李陵為同家族 在漢武帝抄家後 便遠
離"漢"的領土 混入邊疆民族之中 直到五胡亂華後 再度與胡人一起出現
在中原.所以唐朝 對邊疆民族 態度極為友善. 且從不否認與邊疆民族
的親密關係.甚至極度誇許匈奴族對該家族庇護.
如此 連皇帝都是來自匈奴之國的狀況下 唐朝 古文學家 和 節度使
會有多大比例是漢人呢????
而唐朝宰相李林甫 在諫請 用安碌山為 節度使 時說 " 胡人較為老實
可靠 , 漢人則........ " 若唐王室是純"漢人"的話 李林甫怎敢出此
言??? 唐朝時滿朝文武 胡人極可能過半數.
所以在唐朝時期 邊疆民族在中原的地位大幅提升應該無誤.
李秀成家族這支客家人 是在蒙古攻打中國時才南遷 並非為下文所說的
在五胡亂華時即南遷. 因為該家族原本一直都混在胡人之中 怎會怕"五胡亂華".
西晉-東晉 與 北宋-南宋 的兩次民族大遷移 現在的"客家人"中 是哪次大移民
南下的呢? 兩者皆很可能
再者胡人在晉朝統治之下 未必全體 社會地位 低落 司馬(遷)家族有恩於
在胡人陣營中的李陵家族 想必在當年應為非常親密.
**********************************************************************
現在最令人起疑的是
司馬遷當年為何如此強調 六國時期文化水準極高 秦滅六國 及焚書坑儒...等事
,而五胡亂華後中原文化水準 不降反升 以及為何胡人政府會要放棄自己文化....等
我的大膽假設 as below
中國北方邊疆民族在當年 人少 物質水準差 為何能建立足以讓中原害怕的國家
極可能該國政府為 六國那些諸子百家 在秦滅六國後 北逃到蠻荒之地所建立的
因為春秋戰國時代 中原有很多聰明人士 在秦朝時全體消失.....被全體殺掉的
可能性很低 聰明的人會跑掉.而最有可能的躲避地方就是北方的匈奴國.
且以秦朝當年的狀況 匈奴實在沒有"突然"強大的理由
在戰國七雄時 每國都小小的 而且內鬥不斷 卻不怕北方民族
在秦統一天下後 國力應該比較強 反而怕匈奴............太不合裡了
如果以上成立 那五胡亂華後 躲在胡人之中的"六國人士"之後 自稱是漢人 且漢化
回來 就很合理了.
**************************************************************************
> 可能是為了躲避有計劃的集體大屠殺, 一些匈奴人喬裝成漢人, 和漢人一同移到了南方.
> 很多漢人貴族也有數百到數千的匈奴僕人和士兵. 然而, 晉朝是一段有高度階級區分的
> 時期. 有明顯不同的外表特徵的人即使是文明人也難以混入漢人中除非有種族間的同婚
> 或與漢人貴族附和. 匈奴要在漢人之間成為貴族幾乎是不可能的事. 能夠混入漢人且逃
> 到南方的匈奴人數量不會太多. 以文化上而言, 雖然劉淵是完全漢化了, 但大部分的匈奴
> 住在中國中部無法接受到這種教育. 如果匈奴的後代會教養出像韓愈, 王陽明, 朱熹...
> 等名人是很令人吃驚的.
這是有可能的 Hun 這個民族並不"笨" 在歐洲的科學家 hun 佔很大比例
以現代科技而言 漢民族反而落後 hun 民族
像當年有很重匈奴血統的 李世民 就表現得很聰明 一點也不輸 "純漢人"
他的後代 太平天國"李秀成" 也表現得允文允武 相當了得
*****************************************************************************
>
> 發信人: jcyu@cis_nctu (客家之戀), 信區: Hakka
> 標 題: 客家與匈奴
> 發信站: Email (Mon Mar 30 20:53:36 1998)
> 來 源: smart.ice.cycu.edu.tw
>
> 一篇在 Hakka Chinese Homepage (http://www.asiawind.com/hakka) 上
> 由香港客家人 Dr. S. L. Lee 所寫的文章, 翻不通順的地方請指教
>
> Hakka and Xiongnu
>
> 客家與匈奴
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> There has been some discussion on the origin of Hakka and its relationship
> with Han and Xiongnu. The following is a collection of information intended
> to further explore this concept.
>
> 有一些關於客家起源的討論及其與漢族及匈奴的關係. 以下是一些資訊的收集用來進一步
> 探究此概念.
>
> The definition of Han should be traced to Han dynasty as a conglomeration of
> the various tribes Hua 華 , Xia夏 , Man蠻 , Yi夷 , Rong戎 , Di狄 during the
> Chunqiu-Zhanguo 春 秋 戰 國 era. Although the unification was actually done
> in Qin秦 dynasty, historically Qin has been labeled a negative period in
> Chinese history. So, even the word "Chinese" was derived from "Chin" (Qin)
> as it was known to the west at that time, Chinese people rather identify
> with Han than Qin. To that effect, Han people is in fact an inclusive term
> of many tribes.
>
> 漢族的定義應當被追朔到在春秋戰國時期以各種種族華, 夏, 蠻, 夷, 戎, 狄所凝聚的
> 漢朝. 雖然統一是真的在秦朝時完成, 歷史上的秦朝在中國歷史上被標示為負面的時期.
> 所以, 即使"中國人"這個字是由當時被西方人所認識的"秦"所衍生出來的, 中國人寧願用
> 漢而不願用秦來稱呼. 因為那樣, 漢人實際上是一群種族的集合用語.
>
> North of Han are a number of nomadic tribes which are more distinct in their
> language, custom, and physical features: Xiongnu匈 奴 , Xianbei鮮 卑 ,
> Wuyuan烏 垣 , FuYu夫 餘 ,Wusun烏 孫 , Dingling丁 零 , Jiankun堅 昆 . In the
> south there were southwest Yi西 南夷 , southern Man南 蠻 , and the Hundred
> Yues 百 越 .
>
> 漢朝的北方是一些在他們的語言, 風俗, 和身體特徵有更多差異的遊牧民族:
> 匈奴, 鮮卑, 烏垣, 瓴l, 烏孫, 丁零, 堅昆. 在南方有西南夷, 南蠻, 和百越.
>
> At the end of Han dynasty, there was a major integration of the northern
> tribes with the Han people. From the 4th century, Xiongnu, xianbei, Jie, Di,
> Jiang from the north established their kingdoms and moved to central China.
>
> 在漢朝結束時, 有一個主要的北方民族和漢民族的種族融合. 從第四世紀起,
> 匈奴, 鮮卑, 羯, 狄, 羌從北方建立了他們的王國並且移動到中國中心地帶.
>
> The composition of Xiongnu is no less complicated than Han. During Han
> dynasty, Xiongnu became a major tribe in the north, covering Xinjiang to
> northeast China, driving Wuyuan and Xianbei to Liaodong遼 東 , Liaoxi遼 西.
> Wuyuan and Xianbei both helped Han to fight Xiongnu, and some of them
> adopted Han culture. In the middle of this, there were a lot of mixing
> between Xiongu, Xianbei and Wuyuan.
>
> 匈奴的組成不會比漢族來得簡單. 在漢朝時期, 匈奴變成北方主要的部族, 包括
> 新疆(Xinjiang)到東北中國, 驅趕烏垣, 鮮卑到遼東, 遼西. 烏垣和鮮卑都幫助
> 漢朝打匈奴, 而他們的一部份人接受了漢文化. 這其中, 匈奴, 鮮卑, 烏垣
> 也有大量的混合.
>
> Due to an internal dispute of inheritance, Xiongnu split into south Xiongnu
> and north Xiongnu. 52 BC, South Xiongnu led by HuHanYe呼 韓 邪 surrendered
> his 5000 people and settled in Shanxi山 西 . They guard the border for Han
> and fought against the north Xiongu. During Han HeDi漢 和 帝 period, there
> were 230,000 south Xiongnu under the sovereignty of Han. They started to
> intermarry Han.
>
> 因為內部對繼承的爭� 匈奴分裂為南匈奴和北匈奴. 西元前52年, 由呼韓邪領導的
> 南匈奴放棄了他的5000人而在山西奠基. 他們戒備和漢的邊界並再與北匈奴戰鬥.
> 在漢和帝在位期間, 有230,000個南匈奴在漢朝的統治下. 他們開始和漢人通婚.
>
> North Xiongnu finally got defeated by a combined force of Xianbei,
> Dingling(from Siberia), south Xiongnu and Han. Around 90 AD, 400,000 north
> Xiongnu surrendered to Han. Han sent back the south Xiongnu to take over
> the territory of north Xiongnu. Part of north Xiongnu's territory was also
> occupied by Xinabei. Some of the south and north Xiongnu people did settle
> down in Han territories. The rest of the defeated north Xiongnu moved
> westward to Siberia and perhaps Europe. They were probably referred to as
> the Huns by the Europeans.
>
> 北匈奴最後被鮮卑,丁零(從西伯利亞), 南匈奴和漢朝的聯軍所敗. 大約西元90年,
> 400,000個北匈奴降於漢朝. 漢朝讓南匈奴接管北匈奴的領地. 部分的北匈奴領地也被
> 鮮卑所佔. 南匈奴和北匈奴的一部份人在漢朝的土地下定居. 其餘被打敗的北匈奴往西方
> 移到了西伯Q亞或許也到歐洲. 他們或許是歐洲人稱的野蠻人.
>
> There were 19 tribes of Xiongnu settling in Han territories. During Wei魏
> dynasty, the decendents of HuHanYe changed the name to Liu 劉 (that is how
> it got confused. Liu Bang 劉 邦 of Han dynasty was about 400 years earlier).
> The total number of Xiongnu was about several hundred thousand.
>
> 匈奴有19個部落定居在漢朝的土地下. 在魏朝期間, 呼韓邪的後代改成姓劉(這就是
> 讓人混淆的地方. 漢朝的劉邦大約早了400年). 匈奴的總數大約有數十萬.
>
> During Jin晉 dynasty, the population of all Chinese was 2.45 million while
> around 280 AD, about 260,000 Xiongnu were allowed to settled in Shanxi
> region. However, they did not receive equality treatment with Han, and were
> never recognized as part of the Han group. Liu Yuan 劉 淵 was a Xiongnu who
> totally adopted the Han culture and used Han language. He later established
> Han kingdom 漢 國 (304-318 AD, which is NOT to be confused with the Han
> dyansty). They finally took Henan 河 南 and Shanxi山 西 , and destroyed West
> Jin 西 晉 . Liu Yuan claimed to be a nephew of the Liu family of Han dynasty
> and adopted Han emperors as his ancestors. He even held ceremonies twice a
> year to commemorate the Han emperors. EVEN SO, the Xiongnu Liu did not gain
> the confidence of the Han people. The Xiongnu noblemen were only treated as
> peasants and servants by the Han group. Finally the Xiongnu decendent Liu Yao
> 劉 曜 changed the name of the kingdom to Zhao 趙 (前 趙 ） , and abandoned
> the Liu Bang "Han" ancestry. The Xiongnu "Han" kingdom was later conquered
> by Hou Zhao 後 趙 led by Shi Le 石 勒 of a Jie羯 tribe. Hou Zhao divided the
> Chinese territory with East Jin at Huai River淮 水 .
>
> 在晉朝時期, 約西元280年, 所有中國人的人口數是2.45百萬, 大約260,000個匈奴人
> 被允許在山西地區定居. 然而, 他們沒有受到與漢人同等的對待, 而且也不被當作是
> 漢人團體的一部份. 劉淵是個完全接受漢文化且使用漢語的匈奴人. 他後來建立了漢國
> (西元304-318, 這和漢朝不會被搞混). 他們最後攻佔了河南和山西, 並且消滅了西晉.
> 劉淵聲稱是漢朝劉氏家族的侄子並且接受漢朝的皇帝當他的祖先. 他甚至一年舉行兩次
> 儀式紀念漢朝皇帝. 即使如此, 劉氏匈奴並沒有得到漢人的信賴. 匈奴貴族只被漢人社會
> 視為粗魯人和僕人. 最後匈奴後裔劉曜改國號為趙(前趙), 並且放棄劉邦的家系.
> 匈奴"漢"王國後來被由羯人石勒所領導的後趙征服. 後趙與東晉以淮水為界分治中國.
>
> The wars between the xiongnu "Han" kingdom and Jie, and the downfall of
> West Jin caused the southward migration of the Han tribe. And this was
> thought to be the first major maigration of Hakka (Lo Hsiang Lin).
> Jie 羯 tribe have high nose bridge and deep eye sockets, easily recognized.
> When Shi Le's nephew became the emperor, a Han general Ran Min 冉 閔
> overthrew Hou Zhao and slaughtered all people with high nose bridge.
> This indicates an extreme ethnic conflict existed between the Han and
> non-Han at that time, close to the ethnic cleansing we see today in Bosnia.
>
> 匈奴"漢"王國和羯的戰爭, 及西晉的衰落造成了漢人的南遷. 這被認為是客家人第一次的
> 大遷徙(羅香林). 羯人有高的鼻樑及深的眼窩, 很容易識別. 當石勒的侄子成為皇帝後,
> 一個漢人將領冉閔推翻了後趙並且屠殺所有有高鼻樑的人. 這顯示了當時在漢人和
> 非漢人之間存在有及嚴重的種族衝突, 類似我們今天在波士尼亞看到的種族淨化.
>
> It is likely that to avoid genocide, some Xiongnu disguised as Han and move
> to the south with the Han. Many Han aristocrats also had hundreds to
> thousands of Xiongnu servants and soldiers. However, Jin dynasty is a
> period with highly distinct class difference. It is difficult for someone
> with a clearly distinct physical feature to infiltrate Han even as a
> civilian unless there was some inter-ethnic marriage or affiliation with
> the Han aristocrats. It was almost impossible for a xiongnu to become a
> nobility among Han. The number of Xiongnu who could mingle with Han and
> fled to the south could not be in great number. Culturally speaking,
> although Liu Yuan was totally Sinicized (Hanized), most of the Xiongnu
> inhabitants in central China could not have received the kind of education.
> It would be quite amazing if the Xiongnu decendents could upbring so many
> famous names like Han Yu韓 愈 , Wang YangMing 王 陽 明 , Zhu Xi朱 熹 ....
>
> 可能是為了躲避有計劃的集體大屠殺, 一些匈奴人喬裝成漢人, 和漢人一同移到了南方.
> 很多漢人貴族也有數百到數千的匈奴僕人和士兵. 然而, 晉朝是一段有高度階級區分的
> 時期. 有明顯不同的外表特徵的人即使是文明人也難以混入漢人中除非有種族間的同婚
> 或與漢人貴族附和. 匈奴要在漢人之間成為貴族幾乎是不可能的事. 能夠混入漢人且逃
> 到南方的匈奴人數量不會太多. 以文化上而言, 雖然劉淵是完全漢化了, 但大部分的匈奴
> 住在中國中部無法接受到這種教育. 如果匈奴的後代會教養出像韓愈, 王陽明, 朱熹...
> 等名人是很令人吃驚的.
>
> If the Hakka language was really a Xiongnu tongue they maintained, they
> would not have survived at all in East Jin territory. They would have been
> all massacred. So Hakka language must be at least the language spoken by
> Han people during Jin dynasty if not earlier. As indicated by the
> architecture of Hakka 5-Phoenix Building五 鳳 樓 , the residents cannot
> be just ordinary civilians, as the structure is like a miniaturized
> Imperial palace. They have to be related to the emperor or key court
> officials. It is difficult to imagine that under such extreme ethnic
> hostility and class distinction at that time, that Hakka could be derived
> from Xiongnu and enjoyed such treatment in Han occupied territories.
> (How many Bosnians can disguise as Moslims, or Serfs, or vice versa?)
>
> 如果客家話真的是匈奴所維持的一種方言, 他們在東晉的領土上根本不可能倖存.
> 他們都會被大屠殺. 所以客家話必定至少是晉朝時漢人所使用的語言. 像客家五鳳樓
> 的結構所象徵的, 居民不可能只是普通的百姓, 因為這結構就像是縮小的皇宮. 他們必定
> 和皇帝或重要的大臣有關. 很難想像在當時如此深的種族敵對及階級區分中, 客家能從
> 匈奴脫胎出來並且在漢人佔領的領土中享受如此的待遇.
> (有多少波士尼亞人能喬裝成Moslims, 或 Serfs, 或反過來?)
>
> Even if some Hakkas were Xiongnu, their language, behavior must be totally
> integrated with Han to survive this era. Culturally speaking, if certain
> Hakka were Xiongnu decendents, they should be totally indistinguishable
> from the Hans. It is not impossible, but unlikely that 400 years can
> upgrade the identity and class of Xiongnu to equal the Hans. Even nowadays
> with all the communication tools and education, African Americans took more
> than 200 years to gain their current social status.
>
> 即使有些客家是匈奴, 他們的語言, 舉止也同化於漢人以渡過這歷史時代. 以文化而言,
> 如果這些客家是匈奴後代, 他們和漢人也完全不能區分. 那並非不可能, 但400年未必能
> 將匈奴的特性與族類提升到與漢人相同. 即使現在用所有的通信設備和教育, 非洲的
> 美國人花了超過兩百年才得到他們現在的社會現況.
>
> In conclusion, the theory that Hakkas were derived from Xiongnu needs a lot
> more substantial support. However, it cannot be excluded that some Hakkas
> do have blood relationship with Xiongnu. Whatever the situation, Hakka
> culture should be mainly Han culture and not Xiongnu culture.
>
> 做個結論, 客家導源於匈ㄙ熔z論需要更多實際的支持. 不過有些客家和匈奴有血緣
> 關係也不能被排除. 不論何種情形, 客家文化主要是漢文化而不是匈奴文化.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Notes:
>
> Clyde Kiang proposes that all Hakkas were "sinicized" Xiongnu(Huns)
> assimilated with Han. Based on that, he claims Hakkas are not even
> indigenous Chinese. That is a crucial point of the debate.
> Unfortunately, there are some very fundamental errors in his book that
> even a layman would not make in defining Han漢 . Here are some interesting
> quotations:
>
> Clyde Kiang提議說所有的客家人都是被中國化了的匈奴,被漢族所同化. 基於那,
> 他宣稱客家甚至不是土生土長的中國人. 那是此一爭論的決定性的重點.
> 很不幸, 有一些非常基礎的錯誤在他的書裏那是即使一個外行人在定義漢
> 的時候也不會犯的錯誤. 以下是一些有趣的引文:
>
> {Kiang : The Hakka Odyssey - p.77
> According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word han in English is an
> ancient form of Khan which is the turkish word meaning lord, or price,
> but originated in Tartars......Clearly the Chinese character Han derives
> from the sound of what the rulers called themselves Han (Khan) in their
> mother tongue. This pictophonetic character is a phonogram for water,
> representing the Mongolian sound of han. Therefore, the original Han
> people signifies the people of sinicized Huns or barbarisan Mongols
> dominant cultural group in China....} ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> {Kiang: 客家的遷徙 - p.77
> 根據牛津英文字典, han這個字在^文裡是Khan這個表示國王或諸侯但源於韃靼的
> 土耳其字的一個古老形式......很明白地, 中文字Han(漢? or 汗?)源於這統治者
> 用他們的母語稱呼他們自己為漢(or 汗)的發音. 這個pictophonetic字是表示水的
> 表音字,表示han的蒙古語的音. 因此, 原來的漢人意味著是被中國化而在中國支配
> 文化圈的匈奴人或未開化的蒙古人...}
>
> The Mongolian "Khan" (or "Han") is only a sound that happen to be same as
> the Han people. Khan as in Gingis Khan is written in word as "sweat"汗
> which is only a phonetic translation. It surely means prince or lord,
> but it is totally way off from what the Chinese "Han" 漢 was from.
> (Liu Bang劉 邦 would be rolling over in his grave if he heard this.)
> Han people as a Chinese ethnic group is from the identification with
> Han dynasty created by Liu Bang, who was King of Han 漢 王 , ruling the
> territory of Sichuan四 川 , southern Shanxi山 西 and Hubei湖 北 .
>
> 蒙古語 "Khan" (或 "Han") 只是剛好和漢民族的發音相同而已. Khan是Gingis Khan
> 把它寫成"汗"只是發音上的轉換. 它確實是表示王子或國王, 但它卻和中文的"漢"的來源
> 大相逕庭. (如果劉邦聽到這句話, 他會從墳墓裡面跳起來.) 漢民族身為中國民族的一支
> 是由統治四川,山西和湖北等領土的漢王劉邦所建立的漢朝而確立.
>
> {Kiang: The Hakka Odessey. p. 79 : ...if he(Liu Bang) came from the Chinese
> Liu clan, why didn't he use the family name Liu to proclaim the Liu dynasty?}
>
> {Kiang: 客家的遷徙 p.79: ...假如他(劉邦) 來自中國的劉氏家族, 為什麼他不用劉
> 這個族姓去顯揚劉氏王朝?}
>
> Here is a list of the dynasties and family names associated:
>
> Dynasty Surname
> Qin秦 Ying嬴
> Han漢 Liu劉
> Jin晉 Sima司馬
> Sui隋 Yang楊
> Tang唐 Li李
> Song宋 Zhao趙
> Ming明 Zhu朱
> Qing清 Aixinjuelo愛新覺羅
>
> In none of the dynasties was the family name used as the dynasty name.
> Why should Liu Bang be different? There were kingdoms in the Chunqiu/Zhanguo
> period that when a king was "knighted" (Feng) and given a state, the people
> also adopt the name of the state as the clan's name, but never for a dynasty!
>
> 沒有一個朝代是用族姓當作朝代的名稱. 為什麼要劉邦不一樣呢? 有些春秋戰國時期的
> 王國當國王被授與爵位且被給一塊封邑時, 人們也用那塊封邑的名字當作家族的名字,
> 但朝代從來沒這樣.
>
> These statements cast a heavy shadow on the credibility of the book.
>
> 這些敘述對這本書的可信度投下了重大的陰影
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> S. L. Lee
> September 14, 1996
> 1996 Copyright.
> Translated by jcyu, Jul 1997
> --