Chuck Lorre hissed-at for hiring non-Afghan actor for Afghan role

54 views
Skip to first unread message

Bob Jersey

unread,
Mar 21, 2021, 12:55:55 PM3/21/21
to TVorNotTV
On "United States of Al," débuting April 1st on CBS, the titular character, a former interpreter for a returning Marine veteran who moves to the vet's hometown, is played by Adhir Kalyan, born to Indian parents in South Africs... decision has haters and likers...


B

Adam Bowie

unread,
Mar 21, 2021, 1:47:32 PM3/21/21
to tvornottv
Just wait until people find out how many Brits (and Aussies) are playing Americans on US TV. They're really going to freak out then!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/23d10ec0-ab1e-4774-8d4e-7590d6828320n%40googlegroups.com.

Kevin M.

unread,
Mar 21, 2021, 2:26:14 PM3/21/21
to tvor...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:47 AM Adam Bowie <ad...@adambowie.co.uk> wrote:
Just wait until people find out how many Brits (and Aussies) are playing Americans on US TV. They're really going to freak out then!

Luke Skywalker wasn’t portrayed by an actual Jedi.



On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 4:55 PM 'Bob Jersey' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
On "United States of Al," débuting April 1st on CBS, the titular character, a former interpreter for a returning Marine veteran who moves to the vet's hometown, is played by Adhir Kalyan, born to Indian parents in South Africs... decision has haters and likers...


B

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/23d10ec0-ab1e-4774-8d4e-7590d6828320n%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.
--
Kevin M. (RPCV)

PGage

unread,
Mar 21, 2021, 2:35:18 PM3/21/21
to tvor...@googlegroups.com
This is one of those hot take issues in which over heated debate throws context and history out the window. 

It is maximally problematic when an ethnic group is systematically denied access to roles, and producers cast actors from privileged identity groups to play roles from the discriminated against community, especially when they have to use make up and prosthetics to change the actors appearance. It becomes less problematic, approaching not at all, when the actors from the group being portrayed are less systematically discriminated against, the actor portraying the role is from a less privileged group themselves, and the producers don't feel the need to alter the actors appearance for ethnic reasons. 

Putting white actors in red or black face to play American Indians or African Americans has been, and for a while yet will be, a problem. Having Mexican actors play Cubans, or Nigerian actors play Kenyans, or British Actors playing Americans, is less of a problem.

Now, I am open to being educated about systematic discrimination against Afghanis by Indians, and why this is particularly problematic, but the discourse I have seen so far does not appear nuanced enough to get into that. I am also very open to the possibility that any sitcom from Chuck Lorrie is a piece of shit, and it is more likely than not that this will be trite, simplistic and corny (though, unlike some here, I have found value in Reza Aslan’s prior work).

But, even with Lorre, maybe wait until you have seen at least one full episode (or even 5 min of one episode) before dismissing it on the basis of the promotional clip,

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/23d10ec0-ab1e-4774-8d4e-7590d6828320n%40googlegroups.com.
--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

M-D November

unread,
Mar 22, 2021, 12:57:38 PM3/22/21
to TVorNotTV
Lt. Commander Worf wasn't played by an ACTUAL Klingon.

Tom Wolper

unread,
Mar 22, 2021, 2:29:54 PM3/22/21
to TV or not TV
On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:57 PM M-D November <mdnov...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lt. Commander Worf wasn't played by an ACTUAL Klingon.

This problem is like the Othello situation. Traditionally all the actors were white and the actor playing Othello wore blackface. If you try to solve the problem by saying that only a Black actor can play Othello does that mean all of the other roles are limited to white actors? A lot of casts practice diversity in that roles in general can go to anybody regardless of region of origin for them or their parents. So if the Othello cast is diverse, then what about Othello? Can he now be white? There was at least one production of Othello with a Black cast and white Othello but that's as much a stunt as a way forward.

When I was watching The Great I got confused at first. The characters were all Russian with the exception of Catherine who was German. Yet the actors were white, Black, and Asian. It's likely that a port and capital city would have a more diverse makeup than the provinces and I remember that Russia's national poet, Pushkin, had some African ancestry and nobody held it against him. Plus the Russian Empire extended into Asia so Asians could be in the court. After a few episodes I figured out that they were being color blind in regards to casting and so non-white actors were playing white characters. In another show could the reverse be put into practice or is that appropriation?

Kevin M.

unread,
Mar 22, 2021, 2:47:32 PM3/22/21
to tvor...@googlegroups.com
A few years back, as Hamilton was at the height of its popularity, a nearby mega-church decided to steal some songs from the musical and incorporate it into the worship service... you know, just like Jesus would do. Whereas Hamilton on Broadway (and nearly every touring cast) made it a point of casting mostly minorities in the roles of historically white men and women, the church opted to revert to an all white cast, which is especially jarring considering the congregation is mostly Asian and Latino, which meant they had to go out of their way to not be diverse. 

I freely admit my white privilege, but I always believe the best person for the job should get the job. That meant John Colicos played a Klingon in the 1960s and Michael Dorm and Christopher Lloyd and Christopher Plummer in the 1980s and 1990s. It also means that sometimes a non LGBTQ actor is better at playing an LGBTQ role, and other times an LGBTQ actor is better in a non LGBTQ role (we all thought Mr and Mrs Brady had great chemistry back in the day, and Neil Patrick Harris played a great womanizer in How I Met Your Mother). Sometimes an actor with working legs is better to play a character confined to a wheelchair. 

If, as was the case at the aforementioned mega-church, casting directors are going out of their way to avoid a diverse cast, then that should indeed be called out, or if there is a genuine miscasting (Craig Ferguson notoriously auditioned to play a Latino role on “Suddenly Susan”), then by all means raise a fuss. But there is no indication that’s what is going on here... it might be, but as yet nobody can point to that.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.
--
Kevin M. (RPCV)

PGage

unread,
Mar 22, 2021, 3:23:06 PM3/22/21
to tvor...@googlegroups.com
Interesting that you bring up Othello - I am reading just now James Shapiro’s book *Shakespeare in a Divided America*, which includes a chapter on Othello in Antebellum America. That play was much more racialized then than when Shakespeare wrote it (the idea of race as we know it now was pretty much being invented as Shakespeare was writing). He discusses several permutations of actor and role in that and other plays.

My point is, again, context and history matter. White  actors in black face playing Othello means something different in 1603 England than it did in 1843 America than it might one day mean in 2203.

I don't set myself up as the arbiter of when and when it is not a problem, but I am tired of folks on either side pretending it is an absolute issue and then using an example wrenched from context to make the other side seem absurd. Reasonable people and and do disagree about what is and is not problematic, but those can be useful and productive conversations if they don't get sidetracked by red herrings. 

Personally I do look forward to a time when discrimination and prejudice are remote and irrelevant enough that any actor can play any role without limit. I don’t think we are there yet. But I also don't want an absolutistic argument aimed at silencing morons like Megyn Kelly to get us trapped in unproductive  debates.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TVorNotTV" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com.

Dave Sikula

unread,
Mar 23, 2021, 6:24:23 AM3/23/21
to TVorNotTV
I was talking about this with a director colleague of mine. For a long time, I admit I had issues with some aspects of cross-racial or color-blind casting -- especially if actors of different races were playing members of the same family. I eventually got over it and no longer care, and actually look forward to it now.

My own feeling is that, if the issues raised in the play/movie/television series aren't dealing with specifically racial issues (as "Othello" does, among other things), there's no reason to not cast anyone in any role. I wouldn't cast white people in an August Wilson play than I'd cast a Black actor in a David Henry Hwang play that was about the Chinese experience. About a decade ago, I saw a production of "West Side Story" that had a black Tony. I have no doubt the director was sincere in casting color-blind, but it made no sense in that there was no mention of it. The racial conflict at the heart of the play was rendered nonsensical. (It didn't help that the actor wasn't very good.)

I'd certainly use actors of color in Shaw, Chekhov, or Wilde plays, though, because those plays aren't about race. (Though it's got to be done carefully. There was a terrible production of "The Cherry Orchard" on Broadway a few years ago that used a multi-racial cast, but -- whether through design or not -- used Black actors in the lower-status roles. It cast an unpleasant pall over the proceedings [although most of the cast was floundering anyway]. Would I have had any objection to a white Ranyevskaya and a Black Gaev [her brother]? Not at all.) 

In my own case, I've cast a Chinese-Canadian actor in a role written for a Latinx actor (we didn't get any of the latter at the audition) because what the character was going through was more about an immigrant experience (running a family-owned restaurant) than it was specifically Latinx. (I also used the same actress in another production playing a couple of characters written as white men. There was no reason the characters had to be white or played by men, so in she went). I've also had Asian actors playing main characters in "Guys and Dolls," a production that also featured a number of women playing gangsters. I did a series of readings of my translations of Chekhov plays last year and cast all sorts of people from different backgrounds.

"Hamilton" has a few sins -- and is already seeming a little dated -- but what it proved to me more than anything else is that, in almost every case, any actor can play anything. This Lorre thing is one of the exceptions in that the character is specifically Afghan and dealing with the Afghan experience, and should be played by, yes, an Afghan. I wouldn't cast an Indian in the role any more than I'd cast an English, Nigerian, Icelandic, or Singaporean actor.

As for your specific examples, the racial issues in "Othello" can be substituted for issues about "others," so the actor playing the role should probably be another ethnicity than the rest of the cast. (I have seen at least one production where both Othello and Iago were Black, which made it more about jealousy and less about race than usual.) The Patrick Stewart production you cite seemed like more of a novelty than anything else.

I could barely get through one episode of "The Great," but not because of the casting; I couldn't stand the tone and writing. It was great to see actors of color get those opportunities. If I could abide "Bridgerton," I'd probably feel the same way.

And don't even get me started on Brits and Australians being cast as Americans.

--Dave Sikula

Tom Wolper

unread,
Mar 24, 2021, 3:33:22 PM3/24/21
to TV or not TV
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 6:24 AM 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV <tvor...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I was talking about this with a director colleague of mine. For a long time, I admit I had issues with some aspects of cross-racial or color-blind casting -- especially if actors of different races were playing members of the same family. I eventually got over it and no longer care, and actually look forward to it now.

My own feeling is that, if the issues raised in the play/movie/television series aren't dealing with specifically racial issues (as "Othello" does, among other things), there's no reason to not cast anyone in any role. I wouldn't cast white people in an August Wilson play than I'd cast a Black actor in a David Henry Hwang play that was about the Chinese experience. About a decade ago, I saw a production of "West Side Story" that had a black Tony. I have no doubt the director was sincere in casting color-blind, but it made no sense in that there was no mention of it. The racial conflict at the heart of the play was rendered nonsensical. (It didn't help that the actor wasn't very good.)
 
I could barely get through one episode of "The Great," but not because of the casting; I couldn't stand the tone and writing. It was great to see actors of color get those opportunities. If I could abide "Bridgerton," I'd probably feel the same way.

And don't even get me started on Brits and Australians being cast as Americans.

 I want to express my appreciation to everybody who participated in this discussion. It went deeper than I expected and I feel I walk away enlightened about the issue. I had a tough time trying to reconcile condemning blackface/yellowface while encouraging actors of color to take on clearly white roles like founding fathers or Russian courtiers. Now it makes sense to me.

While I know it's the right thing to do and over the long term will make for better comedies and dramas, it's jarring how quickly it seems to have come into the mainstream. I can certainly trace a history of "no miscegenation" in the Hollywood Production Code meaning any hint of interracial romance was impossible and scenes where Black performers in white musicals did their scenes apart and not part of the plot so southern theater owners could cut out those scenes. And then there were Norman Lear shows where race/ethnic relations in his sitcoms became deadly dull because each actor of color had to represent his whole group and self-righteousness buried any hope for comedy. The current situation still seems avant garde to me but if the shows aren't controversial or attacked on casting I can easily get used to it.

Bob Jersey

unread,
Mar 30, 2021, 8:10:19 PM3/30/21
to TVorNotTV
Reza Aslan, a religious-studies scholar and another of the show's execs, joins Lorre in a Variety interview saying, "don't judge"... their writers' room is inclusive, and Aslan, an Iranian, knows all about being misrepresented in TV... https://variety.com/2021/tv/news/united-states-of-al-afghan-community-producers-writers-room-1234940436/ (link)

B

Moi, March 21st:
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages