EVALUATION - TurboGears Persistency System

[Ilias Lazaridis]

I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project
and was wondering which version to use best at this point.

The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would
look somehow like this:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoProductFictional

I don't like the used "Car" model, and would prefere to use a more
intuitive model.

Any suggestions are welcome.

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

[Michele Cella]

Sincerely, I suggest you evaluate this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Lazaridis

Ciao
Michele

[Sylvain Hellegouarch]

Michele Cella a écrit :

Pwned :D

[Adam Jones]

So should we feel good about being popular enough to be worth trolling,
or bad about having to deal with that in the community now? I am so
conflicted.

[Cliff Wells]

On Sat, 2006-09-02 at 13:33 -0700, Adam Jones wrote:

> So should we feel good about being popular enough to be worth trolling,
> or bad about having to deal with that in the community now? I am so
> conflicted.

I feel good that we have members who are so attentive ;-)

Regards,
Cliff

[Julio Oña]

"Dogs are barking Sancho, signal that we advanced" ("Ladran los perros Sancho, señal de que avanzamos") Don Quijote de La Mancha - Cervantez.

Sorry for the poorly googlelate of a famous quoting.

--
Julio

[Kevin Dangoor]

Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list.
I have looked at that wikipedia page.

Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't
mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no
intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior
complaints about him is a non-starter.

So here's my take: I'm going to uphold an "internet death penalty" on
Ilias based on him coming off looking like a troll in other forums.
If he tosses out useless criticism here, it would likely just be
ignored by everyone. If he has useful criticism/praise, then we
benefit. If he makes a nuisance of himself, we can take action then.

If you, personally, have an issue with Ilias from some other forum,
feel free to filter his email messages. Until there's actually an
issue in *this* forum, I don't intend to take action.

Kevin

[Cliff Wells]

On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote:

> Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list.
> I have looked at that wikipedia page.
>
> Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't
> mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no
> intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior
> complaints about him is a non-starter.

I'm sure Patrick K. O'Brien thought the same thing:
http://schevo.org/lists/archives/schevo-devel/2006-May/000749.html

But reading Ilias' page, he claims that despite Patrick's clear refusal
of his commercial services, Orbtech, LLC retained him anyway:
http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo

This seems rather odd, given that Orbtech's home page claims that it's
lead by Patrick K. O'Brien:
http://orbtech.com/

Further, he creates the impression that Patrick's refusal of his
services somehow reflected badly on the project lead:
http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoTeamRating

So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would
perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or
Ilias is a blatant liar.

I'm not fond of banning, except in the case of spamming and I think
Ilias is a spammer. His technique is more subtle, but the goal is
clearly the same. Every single post he makes is sure to include one or
more links to his site. The fact that he disguises it as legitimate
conversation doesn't change what it is.
I don't think he's a troll so much as an entrepreneur with very poor
ideas about honesty and how to properly garner business for himself. I
don't think he's likely to attract much business from this list, but it
does bother me a bit that he's using this list to try to legitimize what
is apparently a complete falsehood.

I expect it's only a matter of time until he's claiming he's been
retained by Blazing Things, LLC to audit TurboGears despite the open
animosity the project lead Kevin Dangoor showed toward him <wink>.
Watch out Kevin, next thing you know, Blazing Things will have you
replaced ;-)

Regards,
Cliff

--

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Cliff Wells wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
>
> > Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list.
> > I have looked at that wikipedia page.
> >
> > Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't
> > mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no
> > intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior
> > complaints about him is a non-starter.
>
> I'm sure Patrick K. O'Brien thought the same thing:

[...] - (fascinating 'analysis')

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Please#PleasebePoliteandCivilized

-

I've not the time to analyze the 'wikipedia-article-case', but for
those interested:

Two persistency cases have negative results:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/DjangoAudit
http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/SchevoAudit

And two wikipedia users (Ubernostrum, Gldnspud) are very active in
publishing 'informations':

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ilias_Lazaridis&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ilias_Lazaridis

Just create an account and join thousands of wikipedia authors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&type=signup

But please take care of the wikipedia policies and your own reputation.

.

[Patrick K. O'Brien]

Cliff Wells wrote:
> On Sun, 2006-09-03 at 22:55 -0400, Kevin Dangoor wrote:
>
> > Ilias emailed me after running up against trouble on the Django list.
> > I have looked at that wikipedia page.
> >
> > Ilias had some valid points on his wiki regarding Django. I don't
> > mind productive criticism. I also made it clear that I had no
> > intention of buying services, so that commercial aspect to prior
> > complaints about him is a non-starter.
>
>
> I'm sure Patrick K. O'Brien thought the same thing:
> http://schevo.org/lists/archives/schevo-devel/2006-May/000749.html
>
> But reading Ilias' page, he claims that despite Patrick's clear refusal
> of his commercial services, Orbtech, LLC retained him anyway:
> http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo
>
> This seems rather odd, given that Orbtech's home page claims that it's
> lead by Patrick K. O'Brien:
> http://orbtech.com/
>
> Further, he creates the impression that Patrick's refusal of his
> services somehow reflected badly on the project lead:
> http://audit.lazaridis.com/schevo/wiki/SchevoTeamRating
>
> So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would
> perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or
> Ilias is a blatant liar.

While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I
feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts
that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that
would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed
retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped
that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.

My relationship with Ilias had its ups and downs, but there came a time
when I decided to no longer retain his services. I don't hold any
animosity towards Ilias and wish him well. I believe he feels the same
way towards me.

I'd rather not comment too much on his methods or reputation as a
spammer other than to say that while I do not agree with many of his
methods, I think some of his reputation is undeserved and unfortunate.
Hopefully you won't believe everything you read about a person and will
attempt to make your own judgements, or just stick to the technical
details of the discussion.

I hope that was helpful. Ilias is free to disagree with any of my
statements (not that he needs my permission since this is a public
forum).

--
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech http://www.orbtech.com
Schevo http://www.schevo.org
Louie http://www.pylouie.org

[Cliff Wells]

On Mon, 2006-09-04 at 06:43 -0700, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> Cliff Wells wrote:

> > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would
> > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or
> > Ilias is a blatant liar.
>
> While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I
> feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts
> that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that
> would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed
> retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped
> that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.

Well, in that case, my apologies to Ilias. Clearly there's more to the
story than is publicly available.

So... schizophrenic it is?

<wink>

Regards,
Cliff

--

[Kevin Dangoor]

On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Cliff Wells wrote:

> I expect it's only a matter of time until he's claiming he's been
> retained by Blazing Things, LLC to audit TurboGears despite the open
> animosity the project lead Kevin Dangoor showed toward him <wink>.
> Watch out Kevin, next thing you know, Blazing Things will have you
> replaced ;-)

Man, those 100% reductions in force can be a real bummer :)

Seriously, though, I'll state unequivocally that Blazing Things and
myself have not and will not be retaining Ilias' services. I'm pretty
sure in a "my word against his" contest, I would win.

Kevin

[Kevin Dangoor]

On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:00 AM, Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

> [...] - (fascinating 'analysis')
>
> http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Please#PleasebePoliteandCivilized

I would like to see the meta discussion end here unless something
comes up to change that. With a 1.0b1 release imminent, we have more
useful things to discuss than this.

Kevin

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> Cliff Wells wrote:

...

> > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would
> > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or
> > Ilias is a blatant liar.
>
> While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I
> feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts
> that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that
> would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed
> retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped
> that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
>
> My relationship with Ilias had its ups and downs, but there came a time
> when I decided to no longer retain his services. I don't hold any
> animosity towards Ilias and wish him well. I believe he feels the same
> way towards me.

This is right.

No animosity towards you, and wish you and the schevo project well.

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Cliff Wells wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-09-04 at 06:43 -0700, Patrick K. O'Brien wrote:
> > Cliff Wells wrote:
>
> > > So apparently Patrick is at odds with Orbtech management, which would
> > > perhaps mark him as schizophrenic (since he *is* the management) or
> > > Ilias is a blatant liar.
> >
> > While I would rather stay out of this discussion as much as possible, I
> > feel I must address these comments since I have access to certain facts
> > that others do not. I do own the company known as Orbtech, so that
> > would definitely make me part of management. And Orbtech did indeed
> > retain the services of Mr. Lazaridis for a period of time. I had hoped
> > that good things might result from hiring one of my harshest critics.
>
> Well, in that case, my apologies to Ilias.

Apology granted.

Can you (or any other reader) please tell me, which version to use
best?

I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable
enouth.

[Jorge Godoy]

"Ilias Lazaridis" <il...@lazaridis.com> writes:

> I would like to use the latest development version, if it is stable
> enouth.

I'm working with the head of 1.0 branch. Including production servers. It is
stable enough for me. The trunk had some ups and downs, I'm not there
anymore. I recommend the 1.0 branch from svn. If this isn't possible, 0.9a9
is fine.

--
Jorge Godoy <jgo...@gmail.com>

[Kevin Dangoor]

At this point, sticking with the released/easy_installable version is
probably fine. (0.9a9, in this case). Soon enough, "easy_install
TurboGears" will give you 1.0b1.

Kevin

[Ilias Lazaridis]

easy_install TurboGears

retrieved version 0.8.9

I used this version (but could change to 0.9a9 if you tell me a way).

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/TurboGearsProductEvaluation

(please await the final result before commenting the evaluation, I will
open a new thread)

.

[Karl Guertin]

On 9/6/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> easy_install TurboGears
>
> retrieved version 0.8.9

easy_install -f http://www.turbogears.org/preview/download/index.html
--script-dir /usr/local/bin TurboGears

Installs the current version (0.9a9). The docs for this version are at:

http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0

When Kevin is ready to release 1.0b, then you'll get a current version
by doing "easy_install TurboGears". Please use 0.9a9 until then.

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Seriously, commercial services within open source are nothing special.

I share most results as open source (or publicized factual knowledge)
in order to attract collaboration partners (as I cannot fulfill the
workload of such a complex project myself).

Additionally, I provide commercial services to any entity which likes
to influence the flow of the case project:

http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/CommercialServices

I try this way, thus I am not asking for donations (like other
projects).

I could of course close source all results (but that's against the
nature of the overall project).

Hope this clarifies a little things about the 'evil commercial
services'.

.

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Karl Guertin wrote:
> On 9/6/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> > easy_install TurboGears
> >
> > retrieved version 0.8.9
>
> easy_install -f http://www.turbogears.org/preview/download/index.html
> --script-dir /usr/local/bin TurboGears

This hint comes to the right moment, thank's a lot.

I used "easy_install -U -f ..." in order to get 0.9a9.

Seems that things go on now fine.

> Installs the current version (0.9a9). The docs for this version are at:
>
> http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0
>
> When Kevin is ready to release 1.0b, then you'll get a current version
> by doing "easy_install TurboGears". Please use 0.9a9 until then.

ok

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> I would like to evaluate TurboGears for use within a personal project
> and was wondering which version to use best at this point.
>
> The evaluation focuses initially on the persistence system and would
> look somehow like this:

How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject)
provided within turbogears?

e.g. for a very simple schema-evoluation support:

define a class in model

$ tg-admin sql create

populate class with catWalk

define another class in model

? (command to use thus data is not lost)

.

--
http://lazaridis.com

[Karl Guertin]

On 9/7/06, Ilias Lazaridis <il...@lazaridis.com> wrote:
> How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject)
> provided within turbogears?

AFAIK, it's not.

[Jonathan LaCour]

Karl Guertin wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis::

>> How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject)
>> provided within turbogears?
>
> AFAIK, it's not.

Short Answer:

What Karl said.

Long Answer:

That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy SQL
toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can
use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema
evolution and migration.

The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I mentored
and provides the ability to manage and version your database changes
over time, including creation/modification/removal of tables, columns,
indexes, and constraints in a database independent way.

The only other framework that provides something like this is Ruby on
Rails' ActiveRecord ORM in its "migrations" package, but it is highly
restrictive when it comes to what kinds of schemas are supported due
to ActiveRecord's strict adherence to the design pattern of the same
name.

--
Jonathan LaCour
http://cleverdevil.org

[Alberto Valverde]

On Sep 7, 2006, at 5:31 PM, Jonathan LaCour wrote:
> That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy
> SQL
> toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can
> use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema
> evolution and migration.
>
> The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I
> mentored
> and provides the ability to manage and version your database changes
> over time, including creation/modification/removal of tables, columns,
> indexes, and constraints in a database independent way.
>
> The only other framework that provides something like this is Ruby on
> Rails' ActiveRecord ORM in its "migrations" package, but it is highly
> restrictive when it comes to what kinds of schemas are supported due
> to ActiveRecord's strict adherence to the design pattern of the same
> name.

Wow!! Can't wait to try it!
(Why on earth hasn't this been publicized before on this list?? ;) )

Thanks!
Alberto

[Karl Guertin]

On 9/7/06, Alberto Valverde <alb...@toscat.net> wrote:
> Wow!! Can't wait to try it!
> (Why on earth hasn't this been publicized before on this list?? ;) )

I could have sworn that Kevin has mentioned it a couple times on his
blog and I thought Jonathan had mentioned it at least once on this
list. I've been away and known about it for months, where have you
been? :P

[Alberto Valverde]

\me blushes :*) ohhh, summer, summer... where was my mind? ;)
Alberto

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Jonathan LaCour wrote:
> Karl Guertin wrote:
> > Ilias Lazaridis::
> >> How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject)
> >> provided within turbogears?
> >
> > AFAIK, it's not.
>
> Short Answer:
>
> What Karl said.
>
> Long Answer:
>
> That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy SQL
> toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can
> use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema
> evolution and migration.

ok, sounds good!

EVALUATION - TurboGears Persistency System 2, SQLAlchemy
http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears/browse_frm/thread/bea3f92d257c8901/b2c4d2552ff8e913#b2c4d2552ff8e913

> The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I mentored

[...] - (description, comparison)

> Jonathan LaCour
> http://cleverdevil.org

btw: Winston and Nelson look very nice!!!

http://cleverdevil.org/article/47/winston-and-nelson

.

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Jonathan LaCour wrote:
> Karl Guertin wrote:
> > Ilias Lazaridis::
> >> How is the schema-evolution support (which exist within sqlobject)
> >> provided within turbogears?
> >
> > AFAIK, it's not.
>
> Short Answer:
>
> What Karl said.
>
> Long Answer:
>
> That being said, TurboGears does provide support for the SQLAlchemy SQL
> toolkit / ORM. If you use SQLAlchemy rather than SQLObject, you can
> use the migrate package (http://erosson.com/migrate) for doing schema
> evolution and migration.

ok, sounds good!

EVALUATION - TurboGears Persistency System 2, SQLAlchemy
http://groups.google.com/group/turbogears/browse_frm/thread/bea3f92d257c8901/b2c4d2552ff8e913#b2c4d2552ff8e913

> The migrate package was a Google Summer of Code project that I mentored

[Jorge Godoy]

Alberto Valverde <alb...@toscat.net> writes:

> \me blushes :*) ohhh, summer, summer... where was my mind? ;)

You should worry less about women... LOL...

--
Jorge Godoy <jgo...@gmail.com>