Greetings all,
It seems that despite efforts to revive it, the Tunes project has been
dormant for 5 years or so. There are 17 people on this mailing list,
and most of us are working on something that's somehow related to
Tunes, but as a cohesive effort there's nothing happening. I'm not
hopeful that that'll change, as explained in my 'post-mortem' essay
[1] on Tunes, written last year. Bottom line, I think Tunes was
sidelined by the consumerization of computing, and maybe Tunes was too
ambitious anyhow. I don't know how you all feel, but that's my
opinion.
What's next? Do we update the website to say the project is inactive,
and just keep this mailing list around as a "computer visionaries'
club"? Close the list too? Or does someone want to keep Tunes going?
Thanks,
Tom
References
1. http://tnovelli.net/dream/tunes2010.html
I'm seeing this list from some months ago, but i'm checking tunes.org
from 2002, my silence is lack of understanding from these topics (i
can't code more than XML, XHTML), i'm thirsty about news from TUNES,
being good or bad news, i prefer that than silence.
Good luck guys,
QuarzoLiquido
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Tom Novelli <tnov...@gmail.com> wrote:Greetings all,
It seems that despite efforts to revive it, the Tunes project has been
dormant for 5 years or so. There are 17 people on this mailing list,
and most of us are working on something that's somehow related to
Tunes, but as a cohesive effort there's nothing happening. I'm not
hopeful that that'll change, as explained in my 'post-mortem' essay
[1] on Tunes, written last year. Bottom line, I think Tunes was
sidelined by the consumerization of computing, and maybe Tunes was too
ambitious anyhow. I don't know how you all feel, but that's my
opinion.I'll respond quickly, to mainly say that I agree with your overall assessment, and that we've all matured quite a bit since the project's initial run. I still feel that TUNES ideas are the core of what I want to promote in my career, and am working still on Slate (and now Atomo with a young undergrad) to develop as many of the ideas as possible on the language-side of the approach. There is also the FONC effort which is relevant but not externally visible yet.
What's next? Do we update the website to say the project is inactive,
and just keep this mailing list around as a "computer visionaries'
club"? Close the list too? Or does someone want to keep Tunes going?I'm not sure, but I want to keep some kind of ongoing discussion thread about the vision and where current software progress fits into that. There are plenty of places now to discuss topics like these in a larger setting but very few venues that can focus on an overall guiding philosophy and vision for the future. Rather than (say) a programming language popularity/coolness match. Certainly the commoditization of virtualization makes the reach of strange systems ideas a little easier.Maybe I'll have more to say later once I've had some time to consider our possibilities. It has occurred to me to just "re-brand" every TUNES idea into different garb/language but I haven't put something coherent together around that yet.
Hey, sorry for the late reply. But here are my few bits on the TUNES
project.
I agree with the things which you said in that blog, and not being a
part of the core team, I can't say much about the problems which lead to
this state of TUNES.
But generally saying that I've been a fan of the site since my college
days, using it as a source of wide information about operating systems,
languages etc. I still use the wiki for my own small project.
I've been involved in kernel development myself, though I am not that
experienced with it, but I think I would like to get involved or in
trying to revive it again. Being still in my 20s, my opinion is that TUNES
still has a lot of potential, and it would be worth another shot with it?
Everone learns from mistakes, and we can try avoiding them this time?
Anyones who can contribute to the project in some way or the other,
should do it. Yes, our lives are busy, but we do have time to make at
least one commit in say 5 months (just saying). I know that there will be
lots of planning which still needs to be done, and at least some
timeline is required.
I might not be experienced enough to do all of the above, its just that,
I wanted to let you guys know, that I'm game!
--
Regards
Chirag Anand
Blog: http://techfreaks4u.com/blog/?author=16
anything weird is worth a try...
Great, glad to hear it's useful to you. Too bad it's no longer
editable, but I don't think we have the energy to edit it like we did
when we were mostly students. Other students are probably doing the
same thing now... hopefully evaluating current projects through the
lens of history...
> I've been involved in kernel development myself, though I am not that
> experienced with it, but I think I would like to get involved or in
> trying to revive it again. Being still in my 20s, my opinion is that
> TUNES still has a lot of potential, and it would be worth another
> shot with it? Everone learns from mistakes, and we can try avoiding
> them this time? Anyones who can contribute to the project in some way
> or the other, should do it. Yes, our lives are busy, but we do have
> time to make at least one commit in say 5 months (just saying). I
> know that there will be lots of planning which still needs to be
> done, and at least some timeline is required.
>
> I might not be experienced enough to do all of the above, its just
> that, I wanted to let you guys know, that I'm game!
Hmm... I gather from your blog that you're interested in doing
self-modifying code (or dynamic compilation) in an OS kernel, either by
modifying Linux or starting from scratch (booting with GRUB - a
sensible expedient). Sure, why not. OpenGL drivers already do it
(badly, in most cases) in order to compile GPU code. People have
'embedded' interactive interpreters/compilers in kernel modules...
Richard Hohensee did that with H3SM about 10 years ago, and there have
been others since. Seems like a good way to try out kernel development
in other languages, and to interactively debug kernel code.
Linux and C really aren't that bad. At least C is simple, stable, and
easy to interface with at the machine code level. I've played with
Python, Ruby, Javascript, Lisp, Scheme, Lua, and C++ in the last few
years, but I'm back to C as a compiler implementation language. At
least C is stable, consistent, ubiquitous, and easy to interface with at
the machine level. Linux is heavily supported by corporate users who
care more about servers, but we *could* fork it and transform it into a
simpler OS for us programmer-users... of course, that's still a ton of
work.
Let's keep talking...
Tom
a no-kernel system could run libos' of android and gnu/linux and win32 and what have you, with kernel-privileged speed jit compilers and bytecode engines, in theory it could be possible to even have a system capable of running multiple platform applications on it seamlessly and concurrently.
There are 17 people on this mailing list, and most of us are
working on something that's somehow related to Tunes
Tunes was sidelined by the consumerization of computing
What's next? Do we update the website to say the project is inactive,
and just keep this mailing list around as a "computer visionaries'
club"? Close the list too? Or does someone want to keep Tunes going?
Is the TUNES website still in operation, or am I viewing an inert
archive at tunes.org?
Is it possible for me to sign up and become a participant, placing
documents on the wiki and so forth?
What are the essential new components for a TUNES-like system?
I'd say we need distributed revision control, text production, a programming language,
and editor, an implementation for said language, and communication tools.
And they all have to work well together.
What have I left out?
maybe a browser that can edit this stuff while talking to a wiki.
I believe that the essence of TUNES is to be found in whatever you
couldn't retrofit into Linux after the fact — or else, we could "just"
implement it as a mere Linux application.
My understanding is that the essential feature is an interactive
environment with full reflective control: the ability to do coherent
whole-system changes without everything falling apart because there is
too much informal state, because applications depend on subtle
interaction between of loosely coupled component, because you can't
contain the arbitrary runaway side-effects of the programs you run.
David Barbour notes:
> I'd think you also need an interesting application, something that can help drive what you do with the language for a while.
>
That is true. But my imagination fails, and beside a toplevel
controller for other systems, I can't imagine any specific application
that needs TUNES. The magic is precisely in the total system control.
Maybe the "killer app" would be one where control really matters — a
"shell" that is hardened against all kinds of spyware, malware, etc.,
and suitable for use by people who use cryptocurrencies, and/or who
want to evade the prying eyes of the NSA.
.... In the meantime,
you might enjoy this much simpler but actually existing and very fun
game: http://alexnisnevich.github.io/untrusted/
Greetings all,
It seems that despite efforts to revive it, the Tunes project has been
dormant for 5 years or so. There are 17 people on this mailing list,
and most of us are working on something that's somehow related to
Tunes, but as a cohesive effort there's nothing happening. I'm not
hopeful that that'll change, as explained in my 'post-mortem' essay
[1] on Tunes, written last year. Bottom line, I think Tunes was
sidelined by the consumerization of computing, and maybe Tunes was too
ambitious anyhow. I don't know how you all feel, but that's my
opinion.
What's next? Do we update the website to say the project is inactive,
and just keep this mailing list around as a "computer visionaries'
club"? Close the list too? Or does someone want to keep Tunes going?