http://www.livestream.com/lovewins
Mark5...@aol.com
A few of you asked for some further information on Rob Bell given our lively discussions of late...so am emailing this in response. I didn't know about him prior to Anh's introduction. I think its good we have some varied reactions to him in our group, and feel that underneath some disagreement, there is a desire to be faithful to the gospel. Here is an article by the President of Fuller Seminary who knows Rob, and also the link to the new book which is controversial. Controversy does tend to attract attention...lets continue our discussion and healthy debate, while respecting one another.
Rob Bell in Love Wins: A stingy to a generous orthodoxy, says
evangelist
Rob Bell is not a Universalist, but he is
simply calling readers away from "a stingy orthodoxy to a generous orthodoxy,"
claims the President of Fuller Theological Seminary, Richard J. Mouw.
The
evangelist recently joined the heated debate over Bell's latest title Love
Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever
Lived, which has drawn widespread criticism from prominent evangelicals for
its teaching on universal salvation, that is, all men will eventually be
reconciled to God regardless if they have accepted Christ or
not.
"Suppose, he likes to say, we go up to someone and tell them that
God loves them and sent Jesus to die for their sins. Accept Jesus right now, we
say, because if ten minutes from now you die without accepting this offer God
will punish you forever in the fires of hell," Prof. Mouw proposes.
"What
kind of God are we presenting to the person?...What would we think of such a
father?"
Instead, he believes Bell, the founder and pastor of Mars Hill
Bible Church in Michigan, USA, is simply "a creative communicator who likes to
prod, and even tease us a bit theologically."
"So, here is Rob Bell:
people who refuse a “vital connection with the living God” are given over to a
“kind of life [that] is less and less connected with God” (Love Wins, 66). And
this is no mere theoretical state of affairs, “because it is absolutely vital
that we acknowledge that love, grace and humanity can be rejected” ...and if so,
“God gives us what we want, and if that’s hell, we can have it” (72)," Prof.
Mouw deduced via a recent blog post.
"Why don’t folks who criticize Rob
Bell for wanting to let too many people in also go after people like that who
want to keep too many people out?" he then asked. "Why are we rougher on
salvific generosity than on salvific stinginess?"
"Maybe they think that
folks like Rob Bell and me go too far in the direction of leniency, but what
about folks who go in the other direction?"
Prof. Mouw goes on to ask:
"Did Mother Teresa go to hell?"
"My guess is that she was a little
confused about justification by faith alone. If you think that means she went to
hell, I have only one response: shame on you."
Bell himself has rejected
claims of preaching universal salvation to both believers and
unbelievers.
When asked about his view on universalism at his book launch
for Love Wins last week, he responded: "No, if by Universalist we mean there's a
giant cosmic arm that swoops everybody in at some point whether you want to be
there or not," reported The Christian Post.
"That violates the laws of
love and love is about freedom, it's about choice, it's about do you want to be
there? Because that's what would make it heaven," he explained.
"My
interest is in what's true and where is the life and where is the heart and what
inspires. And if that happens to stir up a few things, that's something I
accept."
Prof. Mouw concludes by quoting from renowned evangelist Billy
Graham, who was once asked about the destiny of “good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists,
Hindus or secular people.”
"Billy had this to say: “Those are decisions
only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be
there and who won’t … I don’t want to speculate about all that. I believe the
love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I
think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have."
Richard J.
Mouw was appointed as the Professor of Christian Philosophy and Ethics at Fuller
Theological Seminary in 1985, and elected as president in 1993.
The evangelist recently joined the heated debate over Bell's latest title Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived, which has drawn widespread criticism from prominent evangelicals for its teaching on universal salvation, that is, all men will eventually be reconciled to God regardless if they have accepted Christ or not.
"Suppose, he likes to say, we go up to someone and tell them that God loves them and sent Jesus to die for their sins. Accept Jesus right now, we say, because if ten minutes from now you die without accepting this offer God will punish you forever in the fires of hell," Prof. Mouw proposes.
"What kind of God are we presenting to the person?...What would we think of such a father?"
Instead, he believes Bell, the founder and pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church in Michigan, USA, is simply "a creative communicator who likes to prod, and even tease us a bit theologically."
"So, here is Rob Bell: people who refuse a “vital connection with the living God” are given over to a “kind of life [that] is less and less connected with God” (Love Wins, 66). And this is no mere theoretical state of affairs, “because it is absolutely vital that we acknowledge that love, grace and humanity can be rejected” ...and if so, “God gives us what we want, and if that’s hell, we can have it” (72)," Prof. Mouw deduced via a recent blog post.
"Why don’t folks who criticize Rob Bell for wanting to let too many people in also go after people like that who want to keep too many people out?" he then asked. "Why are we rougher on salvific generosity than on salvific stinginess?"
"Maybe they think that folks like Rob Bell and me go too far in the direction of leniency, but what about folks who go in the other direction?"
Prof. Mouw goes on to ask: "Did Mother Teresa go to hell?"
"My guess is that she was a little confused about justification by faith alone. If you think that means she went to hell, I have only one response: shame on you."
Bell himself has rejected claims of preaching universal salvation to both believers and unbelievers.
When asked about his view on universalism at his book launch for Love Wins last week, he responded: "No, if by Universalist we mean there's a giant cosmic arm that swoops everybody in at some point whether you want to be there or not," reported The Christian Post.
"That violates the laws of love and love is about freedom, it's about choice, it's about do you want to be there? Because that's what would make it heaven," he explained.
"My interest is in what's true and where is the life and where is the heart and what inspires. And if that happens to stir up a few things, that's something I accept."
Prof. Mouw concludes by quoting from renowned evangelist Billy Graham, who was once asked about the destiny of “good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people.”
"Billy had this to say: “Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won’t … I don’t want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have."
Richard J. Mouw was appointed as the Professor of Christian Philosophy and Ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary in 1985, and elected as president in 1993.
Mark Driscoll Responds to Rob Bell Controversy on Hell Pastor Mark Driscoll says he doesn’t intend on “attacking any individual” with his blog post Monday on hell. But a section in the blog addressing why a loving God would send people to hell inevitably draws him into the emotionally-charged debate surrounding preacher Rob Bell’s new book, which happens to be released tomorrow.
In the post, Driscoll, who is founding pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, states that it is important to understand that God doesn’t send just anyone to hell, but only those who reject His revelation and choose to suppress the truth that He plainly reveals to them.
“Hell is only for those who persistently reject the real God in favor of false gods,” writes the Seattle pastor. “To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, either people will say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ or God will say to them, ‘Thy will be done.’”
Driscoll also responds to the argument that a loving God would be more tolerant by posing a counterargument that if God was tolerant of everyone then he should also tolerate rapists, pimps, pedophiles, and those who sin against the very people criticizing God as intolerant.
“The idea is completely absurd and unjust,” argues Driscoll. “A loving God protects His children from sin and evil by separating them. In this way, God is a father who is tolerant of all who obey Him and are safe for His children. But He is intolerant of those who sin against Him and do evil to His children.”
Order Online: Satan And His Kingdom
In our society, Driscoll points out, there is also cultural intolerance for those who drink and drive, steal, rape and murder and we separate those people from society.
“To call such actions on God’s part intolerant is shameful, because tolerance would denote both approval and support of evil.”
Recently, there is an explosion of interest about hell due to the soon-to-released book by Rob Bell, pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church (no relations to Driscoll’s church) in Grandville, Mich., called Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. The book has drawn much fire from prominent evangelical leaders, with some accusing Bell of heresy.
“Will only a few select people make it to heaven? ... And will billions and billions of people burn forever in hell?" Bell poses in a promotional video for the book.
"Millions and millions of people were taught that the primary message, the center of the gospel of Jesus, is that God is going to send you to hell unless you believe in Jesus. So what gets subtly sort of caught and taught is that Jesus rescues you from God. How could that God ever be good? ... And how could that ever be good news?"
In the video, he states that the good news is that “love wins.”
Justin Taylor, vice president of editorial at Crossway, criticizes Bell as appearing to be promoting universalism.
While Pastor Joshua Harris of Gaithersburg, Md., tweeted that Bell was preaching a false gospel.
Respected evangelical pastor John Piper tweeted on Feb. 26, “Farewell Rob Bell.”
Driscoll tried to stay away from the fray by not naming names, but he makes a strong case against Bell’s alleged universalistic view and the argument that God cannot be loving and send people to hell at the same time.
The Seattle pastor calls on people to look at what Jesus did on the cross and how he suffered for the ungodly sinners and his enemies.
“Or, to say it another way, Jesus suffered and died for mean people. A God who will suffer and die for mean people is not mean,” asserts Driscoll. “In fact, such a God alone is altogether loving; to be condemned by a God of perfect love shows how damnable our sin truly is.”
In his post, Driscoll also answers the argument that eternal torment in hell is unjust punishment for people who sin only for a few decades. He responds by referring to Daniel 12:2 as well as what Jesus says in the Bible in making the case that hell is unending.
“Today, though, it is becoming popular to hope that sinners will eventually repent and everyone will end up in heaven,” writes Driscoll. “This is universal reconciliation, the ancient view of Origen. However, there is not a shred of evidence for post-mortem repentance.”
Bell’s Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived will be released on March 15.
--------------------
Robert Holmes "Rob" Bell Jr. (born August 23, 1970) is an American author and pastor. He is the founder of Mars Hill Bible Church located in Grand Rapids, Michigan and is also the featured speaker in a series of spiritual short films called NOOMA.
Bell is the son of Judge Robert Holmes Bell, who was nominated by Ronald Reagan to the federal judiciary and publicly confirmed by the United States Senate.[1][2] Bell grew up in a traditional Christian environment.
Bell attended Wheaton College. While at Wheaton, he roomed with Ian Eskelin of All Star United. With friends Dave Houk, Brian Erickson, Steve Huber and Chris Fall, he formed the indie rock band, "_ton bundle", which was reminiscent of bands such as R.E.M. and Talking Heads. This is when _ton bundle wrote the song "Velvet Elvis", based upon the same Velvet Elvis painting that he used in his first book Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Wheaton College was also where Bell met his wife, Kristen. The band _ton bundle started to gain some local fame and was even asked to perform at large events, but when Bell was struck with viral meningitis[3] these plans fell through.[4]
Bell received his bachelor's degree in 1992 from Wheaton and taught water skiing in the summers at Wheaton College's Honey Rock Camp, making about thirty dollars a week. During this time, Bell offered to teach a Christian message to the camp counselors after no pastor could be found. He taught a message about "rest". He said that God led him to teaching at this moment.[citation needed] Bell was later approached by several people, each of them telling him that he should pursue teaching as a career.
Bell moved to Pasadena, California to pursue this calling for teaching and received a M.Div. from Fuller Theological Seminary. According to Bell, he never received good grades in preaching class because he always tried innovative ways to communicate his ideas. During his time at Fuller he was a youth intern at Lake Avenue Church. He did, however, occasionally attend Christian Assembly in Eagle Rock, California, which led to him and his wife asking questions in the direction of how a new style of church would appear.
Between 1995 and 1997, Bell formed a band called Big Fil which released two CDs; the first was a self-titled disk and the second was titled Via De La Shekel. When asked what style of music they played, Bell would respond with "Northern Gospel!", which later became the name of a song on the second album. Even after Big Fil stopped performing, Bell continued with two more projects by the name of Uno Dos Tres Communications volume 1 and 2, both of which had a similar musical sound to Big Fil.
In the January 2007 issue of the magazine TheChurchReport.com, Bell was named No. 10 in their list of "The 50 Most Influential Christians in America" as chosen by their readers and online visitors.[5][broken citation]
[edit] Mars Hill Bible Church
Bell and his wife moved from California to Grand Rapids to be close to family and on invitation to study under pastor Ed Dobson. He handled many of the preaching duties for the Saturday Night service at Calvary Church. Bell announced that he would be branching out on his own to start a new kind of community and he would call it "Mars Hill" after the Greek site where the apostle Paul told a group, "For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you."[6]
In February 1999, Bell founded Mars Hill Bible Church, with the church originally meeting in a school gym in Wyoming, Michigan. Within a year the church was given a shopping mall in Grandville, Michigan, and purchased the surrounding land. In July 2000 the 3,500 "grey chair" facility opened its doors. As of 2005, an estimated 11,000 people attend the two "gatherings" on Sundays at 9 and 11 AM.[7] As of March 2011, Sunday attendance numbers between 8,000 and 10,000.[8] His teachings at Mars Hill inspired the popular "Love Wins" bumper sticker, and the congregation freely distributes these stickers after services.[9]
In order to maintain balance in his life, Bell maintains his Fridays as a personal sabbath, where he does not allow contact by electronic means, and has all pastoral duties transferred to other Mars Hill pastors.[10]
[edit] Other projects
Bell is the featured speaker in NOOMA – a series of short films created by a West Michigan-based non-profit film company called Flannel. The title of the video series, "NOOMA", is an English variation of the Greek word pneuma which means breath or spirit. All the videos feature the teachings of Rob Bell, accompanied by music written and sung by local independent artists with the exception of The Album Leaf's music being licensed for the Nooma DVD Lump.
In August 2005, Zondervan Publishing published Bell's first book, Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Velvet Elvis is for people who are, in Bell's words, "fascinated with Jesus, but can't do the standard Christian package".
His Everything is Spiritual national speaking tour launched on June 30, 2006 in Chicago, drawing sold-out crowds in cities across North America. The proceeds from ticket sales were used to support WaterAid, an international non-profit organization dedicated to helping people escape the poverty and disease caused by living without safe water and sanitation. Everything is Spiritual is available from.[11] (The link includes a preview clip).
His second book, titled Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality, was released in March 2007. In February and March 2007 Bell hosted a "Sex God" tour on six university campuses to promote his book. The tour functioned more as a time for engaging questions and conversation. Questions ranged from Old Testament codes to homosexuality to what should Christians do with the word "evangelical". Each night ended with the showing of NOOMA number 15 entitled "YOU".[citation needed]
In June 2007 Bell toured the United Kingdom and Ireland, calling all peacemakers.[12]
Bell launched another speaking tour on November 5, 2007, in Chicago, ""The Gods Aren't Angry"" again drew sold-out crowds in cities across North America. The subject matter of this presentation was a narrative defense of justification through faith and not works (sacrifice). Proceeds from this tour were used to support the Turame Microfinance program supporting the poor in Burundi, a mission supported by Bell's church.
Bell's 2009 project, Drops Like Stars, explores the links between creativity and suffering. Drops Like Stars was an international tour and a book, initially handwritten by Bell, with photographs. The title of the project comes from a young child's view of raindrops on a window at night. Rather than focusing on the conundrum of why an all-powerful God would allow suffering, Bell instead looks at the creativity, empathy, new connections, and growth that can spring from suffering.[13] When asked in an interview how he had become interested in suffering, Bell replied that as a pastor he had been given a front row seat in the most poignant moment's of people's lives. At the same time he was doing lectures on creativity and realized, "There was a connection between these two halves of my life – all these connections between suffering and art-making."[14]
[edit] Beliefs
In his writings, Bell affirms things as truth regardless of the source, saying "I affirm the truth anywhere in any religious system, in any worldview. If it's true, it belongs to God."[15] However, he acknowledges Scripture as the authoritative source of truth by which to compare all other truths in the Mars Hill Bible Church statement of narrative theology.[16]
Bell says, "This is not just the same old message with new methods. We're rediscovering Christianity as an Eastern religion, as a way of life. Legal metaphors for faith don't deliver a way of life. We grew up in churches where people knew the nine verses why we don't speak in tongues, but had never experienced the overwhelming presence of God."[9]
[edit] Bell's response
In a Chicago Sun Times article entitled The Next Billy Graham?, Bell responded to his critics:
"When people say that the authority of Scripture or the centrality of Jesus is in question, actually it's their social, economic and political system that has been built in the name of Jesus that's being threatened," Bell says. "Generally lurking below some of the more venomous, vitriolic criticism is somebody who's created a facade that's not working...But I love everybody and you're next!" he says, giggling. "That's how I respond to criticism."[17]
Jessica
Wins" in general.
1. With so many media choices out there, and so many perspectives
within the Church, I think it's up to individuals/families to decide
for themselves what is acceptable/permissable to read, and to actually
read something before critiquing it. "Don't judge a book by its
cover"--get a well-rounded perspective. The books I am thinking of
include the Harry Potter Series, The Shack, etc. So much of this
controversy came before the book was even released!
2. I wonder which traditions Rob Bell leans toward. Reformed or
Wesleyanism? And just as I say that, I'm reminded of his "Everything
is Spiritual" -- "Free will or predestination?" "Yep" (the marker
example)
3. Interesting thought: I read a blog article, before the book was
even released, that referred to the title of "Love Wins" as either
being bad theology (hence the controversy) or good publicity.
4. Discussion question -- What does it mean to let love win in our
own lives? What I am reminded of is to allow God to purify our hearts
so that we can love God with all our hearts/souls/minds/strengths, and
love our neighbors as ourselves. Let's let Love win in our own lives
and in the lives of those around us.
peace out cub scouts.
Jessica