Abu Ghraib question #1
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Hannah Baran (Louisa HS)
Feb 3, 2011, 6:20:59 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Is Seymour Hersh, the journalist who exposed military abuses in My Lai
(1969) and Abu Ghraib (2004), a hero, a traitor, or something else?
What about Joe Darby, the soldier who reported the actions of his
fellow soldiers to their superiors?
I completely forgot to post these questions; therefore, you may have
until the end of the day Saturday to answer one of the three. To get
full credit, you must quote from the article and/or the videos.
(1969) and Abu Ghraib (2004), a hero, a traitor, or something else?
What about Joe Darby, the soldier who reported the actions of his
fellow soldiers to their superiors?
I completely forgot to post these questions; therefore, you may have
until the end of the day Saturday to answer one of the three. To get
full credit, you must quote from the article and/or the videos.
Lakey
Feb 3, 2011, 6:44:18 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I like how you related both of these people in this question Mrs.
Baran. I believe that they are both heroes. Hersh is a hero because
he was able to show the world what the reality that was hidden from
them. If anything needs to be kept a secret it is almost always bad.
Now the world can see who these criminals really are. We are now
better able to stop another atrocity like these from occuring. Joe
Darby is not a traitor, like the general interviewed in Abu Ghraib
said he was. He may have threatened his fellow soldier's honor of
being in thier company, but he did the right thing and was able to
stop the prisoners from being harmed any more. He made it so justice
could be done to anyone involved and so the ordeal could be stopped.
He put his life into jeapordy to help others.
On Feb 3, 6:20 pm, "Hannah Baran (Louisa HS)" <hannah.ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Baran. I believe that they are both heroes. Hersh is a hero because
he was able to show the world what the reality that was hidden from
them. If anything needs to be kept a secret it is almost always bad.
Now the world can see who these criminals really are. We are now
better able to stop another atrocity like these from occuring. Joe
Darby is not a traitor, like the general interviewed in Abu Ghraib
said he was. He may have threatened his fellow soldier's honor of
being in thier company, but he did the right thing and was able to
stop the prisoners from being harmed any more. He made it so justice
could be done to anyone involved and so the ordeal could be stopped.
He put his life into jeapordy to help others.
On Feb 3, 6:20 pm, "Hannah Baran (Louisa HS)" <hannah.ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Jessica
Feb 3, 2011, 6:49:53 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's a good question Mrs. Baran. I think that Seymour Hersh and Joe
Darby are both heroes because they went against their friends and
stood up for what they believed was right. Hersh and Darby both told
people about what was going on in the prisons because they knew it was
very immoral and innappropriate. Special Agent Scott Bobeck said that
"Darby had initially put an anonymous letter under our door, then he
later came forward and gave a sworn statement. He felt very bad about
it and thought it was very wrong." Darby knew of the consequences he
could face by telling of treatment of the prisoners, which is why I
believe he sent an anonymous letter before coming forward and
revealing his identity. In a way I can see why some people would
consider Darby a traitor because he wasn't loyal to his fellow
soldiers, but personally I think he is a hero. What the soldiers were
doing to the prisoners was very wrong, and he was brave to step up and
turn them in.
Darby are both heroes because they went against their friends and
stood up for what they believed was right. Hersh and Darby both told
people about what was going on in the prisons because they knew it was
very immoral and innappropriate. Special Agent Scott Bobeck said that
"Darby had initially put an anonymous letter under our door, then he
later came forward and gave a sworn statement. He felt very bad about
it and thought it was very wrong." Darby knew of the consequences he
could face by telling of treatment of the prisoners, which is why I
believe he sent an anonymous letter before coming forward and
revealing his identity. In a way I can see why some people would
consider Darby a traitor because he wasn't loyal to his fellow
soldiers, but personally I think he is a hero. What the soldiers were
doing to the prisoners was very wrong, and he was brave to step up and
turn them in.
Ian McKay
Feb 3, 2011, 7:46:58 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Those are both great points Lakey and Jessica.
I believe both Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby were heroes. Hersh first
revealed the horrors of the masscre at My Lai; this was purely heroic
as he was able to investigate the happenings and show the world what
was hiding beyond the concealed truth at My Lai. Also, he performed
another heroic task by revealing the torture chamber that was Abu
Ghraib. By exposing to the world the heinous acts the soldiers were
carrying out on the prisoners, it gave us a sense of feeling that we
Americans are not always the "good guys". Joe Darby was a hero because
he provided Hersh with the evidence to support the allegations being
made. The soldiers took pictures and videos of their inhumane acts;
Darby got a hold of these pictures by accident from one of his
friends. Seeing these pictures was horrifying for Darby and he knew
the right thing was to make it public. The pictures showed the
extemely graphic and gruesome torture being done to the Iraqis. "Two
Iraqi faces appeared in the photographs of those dead men. There is
the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of
another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice" (Hersh).
These ways of "softening up" the prisoners were immoral and cruel, and
should not have been executed. Whether these Iraqis were prisoners of
war or dangerous or innocent, no one should be tortured to that
extent; also, being torturing that way will not get the soldiers to
tell the truth. "They'll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no
truth" (Rowell). The prisoners were only going to say what the
soldiers wanted them to say so they would be let free, so torture was
a failure. All in all, I believe these men were heroes because they
showed to the world the true colors of the soldiers of My Lai and of
Abu Ghraib, even at the risk of putting their own lives in danger.
They exposed the secrets of these places so the sadistic acts being
performed on the innocent and defenseless victims could be stopped.
I believe both Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby were heroes. Hersh first
revealed the horrors of the masscre at My Lai; this was purely heroic
as he was able to investigate the happenings and show the world what
was hiding beyond the concealed truth at My Lai. Also, he performed
another heroic task by revealing the torture chamber that was Abu
Ghraib. By exposing to the world the heinous acts the soldiers were
carrying out on the prisoners, it gave us a sense of feeling that we
Americans are not always the "good guys". Joe Darby was a hero because
he provided Hersh with the evidence to support the allegations being
made. The soldiers took pictures and videos of their inhumane acts;
Darby got a hold of these pictures by accident from one of his
friends. Seeing these pictures was horrifying for Darby and he knew
the right thing was to make it public. The pictures showed the
extemely graphic and gruesome torture being done to the Iraqis. "Two
Iraqi faces appeared in the photographs of those dead men. There is
the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of
another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice" (Hersh).
These ways of "softening up" the prisoners were immoral and cruel, and
should not have been executed. Whether these Iraqis were prisoners of
war or dangerous or innocent, no one should be tortured to that
extent; also, being torturing that way will not get the soldiers to
tell the truth. "They'll tell you what you want to hear, truth or no
truth" (Rowell). The prisoners were only going to say what the
soldiers wanted them to say so they would be let free, so torture was
a failure. All in all, I believe these men were heroes because they
showed to the world the true colors of the soldiers of My Lai and of
Abu Ghraib, even at the risk of putting their own lives in danger.
They exposed the secrets of these places so the sadistic acts being
performed on the innocent and defenseless victims could be stopped.
Jonathan Jackowicz
Feb 3, 2011, 7:51:21 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That is an excellent question Mrs. Baran. I believe that they were
both heroes but they also didn't think anything through. Seymour Hersh
probably saw this as an excellent opportunity to write another award
winning report and further his career. He most likely did not think of
the possible repercussions that would occur after reporting, for the
second time now, that American soldiers have once again mistreated
possible enemy units. But overall he acted like a hero. Joe Darby was
the same way. When he discovered the abuse against the prisoners, he
reported to Scott Bobeck, a member of the Army's Criminal
Investigation Division. Bobeck reported that Joe had come across some
very revealing pictures of the criminal acts being committed by US
Military Police. Bobeck said, "he came across pictures of naked
detainees.........[and] put an anonymous letter under our door, then
actions were heroic but could have resulted in a wave of anti-american
feelings.
both heroes but they also didn't think anything through. Seymour Hersh
probably saw this as an excellent opportunity to write another award
winning report and further his career. He most likely did not think of
the possible repercussions that would occur after reporting, for the
second time now, that American soldiers have once again mistreated
possible enemy units. But overall he acted like a hero. Joe Darby was
the same way. When he discovered the abuse against the prisoners, he
reported to Scott Bobeck, a member of the Army's Criminal
Investigation Division. Bobeck reported that Joe had come across some
very revealing pictures of the criminal acts being committed by US
Military Police. Bobeck said, "he came across pictures of naked
detainees.........[and] put an anonymous letter under our door, then
he later came forward and gave a sworn statement. He felt very bad
about it and thought it was very wrong"(Torture at Abu Ghraib). His
actions were heroic but could have resulted in a wave of anti-american
feelings.
Emily Richards
Feb 3, 2011, 8:10:45 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's a great question, Mrs. Baran. I agree with Jessica and Lakey. I
believe both Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby were heros. I believe that
Hersh is a hero not just because he exposed both the stories about My
Lai and Abu Ghraib, but because he wasn't afraid what his collegues
and his critics would think of him. He decided to do the right thing
over what appeared to be a better option. While this sounds a little
contradictory because it sounds like a winning headline, I believe the
story would be more of a risk because of the wrath of the soldiers who
tortured the Iraqis and the wrath of the United States military. I
believe that Darby was a hero because like Ian pointed out, he was
willing to give very private and secretive information about his
fellow soldiers to the authorities. He didn't care about the
consequences, and as we learned in the video, he will be suffering the
rest of his life for it. He can't ever go home. He decided to turn in
his friends, something many of us would have trouble doing even in
school or the workplace. In Darby's interview on CBS, he even said
that he was good friends with Graner, the soldier who gave him the
disc with the pictures on it. After he turned him in, Graner hated him
and shot him angry looks in court. But, I believe Darby was a hero
because even though he knew the consequences of his actions, he chose
to do the right thing because "'he felt very bad about it and thought
it was very wrong'" (Hersh 2).
> > full credit, you must quote from the article and/or the videos.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
believe both Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby were heros. I believe that
Hersh is a hero not just because he exposed both the stories about My
Lai and Abu Ghraib, but because he wasn't afraid what his collegues
and his critics would think of him. He decided to do the right thing
over what appeared to be a better option. While this sounds a little
contradictory because it sounds like a winning headline, I believe the
story would be more of a risk because of the wrath of the soldiers who
tortured the Iraqis and the wrath of the United States military. I
believe that Darby was a hero because like Ian pointed out, he was
willing to give very private and secretive information about his
fellow soldiers to the authorities. He didn't care about the
consequences, and as we learned in the video, he will be suffering the
rest of his life for it. He can't ever go home. He decided to turn in
his friends, something many of us would have trouble doing even in
school or the workplace. In Darby's interview on CBS, he even said
that he was good friends with Graner, the soldier who gave him the
disc with the pictures on it. After he turned him in, Graner hated him
and shot him angry looks in court. But, I believe Darby was a hero
because even though he knew the consequences of his actions, he chose
to do the right thing because "'he felt very bad about it and thought
it was very wrong'" (Hersh 2).
>
> - Show quoted text -
Moria
Feb 5, 2011, 5:14:19 PM2/5/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I agree with most of the people that replied with the fact that they
both were heroes.
Seymour Hersh saw that things our soldiers were doing were not very
moral. He chose to expose them so that Americans would know what goes
on across the country during wars. At the time that he wrote about
both of these, Hersh was not thinking about the possible consequences
it could have on our soldiers. Joe Darby was also not thinking about
the danger he could be putting our soldiers in. He saw the unmoral
things that the soldiers in the prison were doing and refused to
participate and let it go on. He did it quietly just to have the
actions stopped, however it was leaked and made into a big deal. As
the sergeant from the video said, "we love our soldiers, were just not
always proud of them". Both of these men saw the things they did to
expose the wrongdoing of soldiers as a way to look out for America's
reputation and fix things that they didn't stand for.
both were heroes.
Seymour Hersh saw that things our soldiers were doing were not very
moral. He chose to expose them so that Americans would know what goes
on across the country during wars. At the time that he wrote about
both of these, Hersh was not thinking about the possible consequences
it could have on our soldiers. Joe Darby was also not thinking about
the danger he could be putting our soldiers in. He saw the unmoral
things that the soldiers in the prison were doing and refused to
participate and let it go on. He did it quietly just to have the
actions stopped, however it was leaked and made into a big deal. As
the sergeant from the video said, "we love our soldiers, were just not
always proud of them". Both of these men saw the things they did to
expose the wrongdoing of soldiers as a way to look out for America's
reputation and fix things that they didn't stand for.
Raymond
Feb 5, 2011, 10:19:36 PM2/5/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I also agree with everyone about both Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby
being a hero.
Seymour Hersh is a hero because in both the cases of My Lai and Abu
Ghraib, he exposed the truth to the public when the Army was trying or
could have tried to cover it up. Joe Darby is also a hero because even
when it meant betraying members of his unit, he stood up for what he
knew was right because "he felt very bad about it and thought" what
was going on at Abu Ghraib "was very wrong." It was really shocking to
me to find out that people in Darby's hometown harassed him and even
threatened him because of his choice to report his unit. The actions
of the members of the Military Police Company assigned to guard the
Abu Ghraib prisoners were clearly wrong. Darby reporting his unit's
wrong doing did not endanger the lives of any soldiers fighting in the
war like some people argued. The "breaking chemical lights and pouring
the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pooring cold water on naked
detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair," by the
accused officers was what endangered the lives of U.S. soldiers. In my
response to whether the soldiers at My Lai should be given pity over
what they did, I argued that they should becuase they were in an
environment where their enemy was killing their friends daily without
the soldiers being able to see them. This constant sense of fear is
what set them over the edge. At Abu Ghraib, nothing along these lines
of a defense could be used. Those soldiers were in no immediate
danger. They tortured and degraded detainees who up to 60 percent
where wrongfully detained. Their actions damaged the national
reputation of the U.S. Army and turned the detainees away from the
Army. Their actions endangered the lives of every soldier fighting the
war. Hersh uncovering the story and reporting it along with Darby
reporting the MP guards' actions to his superior officers make both of
them heroes.
being a hero.
Seymour Hersh is a hero because in both the cases of My Lai and Abu
Ghraib, he exposed the truth to the public when the Army was trying or
could have tried to cover it up. Joe Darby is also a hero because even
when it meant betraying members of his unit, he stood up for what he
knew was right because "he felt very bad about it and thought" what
was going on at Abu Ghraib "was very wrong." It was really shocking to
me to find out that people in Darby's hometown harassed him and even
threatened him because of his choice to report his unit. The actions
of the members of the Military Police Company assigned to guard the
Abu Ghraib prisoners were clearly wrong. Darby reporting his unit's
wrong doing did not endanger the lives of any soldiers fighting in the
war like some people argued. The "breaking chemical lights and pouring
the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pooring cold water on naked
detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair," by the
accused officers was what endangered the lives of U.S. soldiers. In my
response to whether the soldiers at My Lai should be given pity over
what they did, I argued that they should becuase they were in an
environment where their enemy was killing their friends daily without
the soldiers being able to see them. This constant sense of fear is
what set them over the edge. At Abu Ghraib, nothing along these lines
of a defense could be used. Those soldiers were in no immediate
danger. They tortured and degraded detainees who up to 60 percent
where wrongfully detained. Their actions damaged the national
reputation of the U.S. Army and turned the detainees away from the
Army. Their actions endangered the lives of every soldier fighting the
war. Hersh uncovering the story and reporting it along with Darby
reporting the MP guards' actions to his superior officers make both of
them heroes.
Lindsay Padgett
Feb 5, 2011, 10:29:13 PM2/5/11
to tttc20...@googlegroups.com
I agree with the points you have made here Moria and I also believe that Seymour Hersh and Joe Darby should be considered heroes. I think both of these men chose to bring to light the inhuman ways that the American troops were treating citizens from other countries. U.S. soldiers in Vietnam killed innocent Vietnamese civilians while in Abu Ghraib, soldiers were found to be, "breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle....". By Joe Darby giving the CD of pictures to military officials, displaying scenes of mistreated prisoners, he made the choice to turn his fellow men in because, "he felt very bad about it and thought it was wrong." I believe what the two men did was very honorable. To go against their own people and show the world the immoral acts that their very country was capable of doing took an abundance of courage and bravery. They knew they could possibly be disliked and even hated for "betraying" their own, but they felt like letting people who were doing wrong get away with their actions would have been even more of an injustice.
Abigail Seay
Feb 5, 2011, 11:12:36 PM2/5/11
to tttc20...@googlegroups.com
I agree with Lakey that they both Seymore Hersh and Joe Darby are heroes. Anyone who exposes abuses in the military isn't doing any harm, they are saving lives. The military abuses in My Lai needed to be reported so that similar situations would not occur again. The soldiers who tortured prisoners in Abu Ghraib needed to be reported to prevent thousands more prisoner's torture. I remember that Darby says something like, "I had to turn them in." I agree with this and feel that it is a soldier's duty to report actions such as these. I would consider not turning the soldiers in as cowardly.
Virginia
Feb 5, 2011, 11:18:52 PM2/5/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
You all have made very good points and arguments in response to Mrs.
Baran's question, but I have to disagree with a point that Jonathan
made about Seymour Hersh. In my opinion, both of these significant men
are heroes for the part they had in revealing the wrongdoings at Abu
Ghraib. Just because Hersh holds the position of a journalist does not
mean that his intentions were wrong. I believe that he, along with
Darby, felt that the crimes at Abu Ghraib needed to be revealed and
that those who were committing those crimes needed to be held
accountable.
As we watched in the video, there were those who declared Darby a
traitor for ‘selling out’ his fellow soldiers. I think that these
people are inconsiderate in the way that they put their national pride
ahead of ethics and natural morals.
Baran's question, but I have to disagree with a point that Jonathan
made about Seymour Hersh. In my opinion, both of these significant men
are heroes for the part they had in revealing the wrongdoings at Abu
Ghraib. Just because Hersh holds the position of a journalist does not
mean that his intentions were wrong. I believe that he, along with
Darby, felt that the crimes at Abu Ghraib needed to be revealed and
that those who were committing those crimes needed to be held
accountable.
As we watched in the video, there were those who declared Darby a
traitor for ‘selling out’ his fellow soldiers. I think that these
people are inconsiderate in the way that they put their national pride
ahead of ethics and natural morals.
Meagan
Feb 5, 2011, 11:24:40 PM2/5/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's interesting to compare Seymour Hersh and Joseph Darby, Mrs.
Baran.
I also agree with the other responses in that the two men should be
considered heroes. I believe exposing the abuses, in both cases, was
consequential to the men, but they revealed what they found anyway.
For two Americans to stick up for enemy countries was probably both
difficult and conflicting, but I believe both men did the right
thing. America is supposed to be the 'good guy', the peacemaker.
It's tainting to the American image to know that such abuses were
allowed, by our military, to take place. However, in the case of the
abuses at Abu Ghraib, "the actions of a few did not reflect the
conduct of the military as a whole" (Torture at Abu Ghraib 6). Since
the abuses were mostly conducted by seven soldiers, I think that gave
Darby even more reason to turn in the information he had. This would
not be treasonous to the Army, but just bring light to the wrongdoings
of a few. Similar to My Lai, superiors were partly to blame for
abuses at Abu Ghraib. "...his client's defense will be that he was
carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the
directions of military intelligence" (3). No matter who was at fault,
there's no doubt that unnecessary abuses took place both at My Lai and
Abu Ghraib, and the men who revealed those abuses should be considered
heroes, not traitors.
Baran.
I also agree with the other responses in that the two men should be
considered heroes. I believe exposing the abuses, in both cases, was
consequential to the men, but they revealed what they found anyway.
For two Americans to stick up for enemy countries was probably both
difficult and conflicting, but I believe both men did the right
thing. America is supposed to be the 'good guy', the peacemaker.
It's tainting to the American image to know that such abuses were
allowed, by our military, to take place. However, in the case of the
abuses at Abu Ghraib, "the actions of a few did not reflect the
conduct of the military as a whole" (Torture at Abu Ghraib 6). Since
the abuses were mostly conducted by seven soldiers, I think that gave
Darby even more reason to turn in the information he had. This would
not be treasonous to the Army, but just bring light to the wrongdoings
of a few. Similar to My Lai, superiors were partly to blame for
abuses at Abu Ghraib. "...his client's defense will be that he was
carrying out the orders of his superiors and, in particular, the
directions of military intelligence" (3). No matter who was at fault,
there's no doubt that unnecessary abuses took place both at My Lai and
Abu Ghraib, and the men who revealed those abuses should be considered
heroes, not traitors.
Kierra W.
Feb 6, 2011, 11:05:11 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
While everyone seems to have the same responce as Lakey; being that
they are both heroes because they uncovered military abuse I must beg
to differ. In the case of Seymour Hersh I would conclude that he is no
hero nor a traitor he was simply good at his job. I say this because
he had nothing to lose by reporting the two inccidents. Unlike what
Emily had stated about the possible disparagements from his collegues
being a reason for him not to post it, in all reality if he wouldn't
have one of his so collegues would have. The overall act of reporting
the abuse to the public's eye was noble because it let the people fuel
the militaries re-action to the wrong doing. In Joe Darbey's case I
would say he was acting in a heroic manner by releasing the pictures
to the Scott Bobeck, being that he saw the inhumane and disrespectful
way that his fellow comrades exhibited towards the prisoners in the
photo's. He was well aware that if the soldiers in his unit would have
known, before they were deployed back to the U.S., that he was the one
who "snitched" on their unconventional activities they would have
killed him. Darby had his life at stake but still chose to unveil the
wrongs of the soldiers in his unit which is what makes him a hero.
they are both heroes because they uncovered military abuse I must beg
to differ. In the case of Seymour Hersh I would conclude that he is no
hero nor a traitor he was simply good at his job. I say this because
he had nothing to lose by reporting the two inccidents. Unlike what
Emily had stated about the possible disparagements from his collegues
being a reason for him not to post it, in all reality if he wouldn't
have one of his so collegues would have. The overall act of reporting
the abuse to the public's eye was noble because it let the people fuel
the militaries re-action to the wrong doing. In Joe Darbey's case I
would say he was acting in a heroic manner by releasing the pictures
to the Scott Bobeck, being that he saw the inhumane and disrespectful
way that his fellow comrades exhibited towards the prisoners in the
photo's. He was well aware that if the soldiers in his unit would have
known, before they were deployed back to the U.S., that he was the one
who "snitched" on their unconventional activities they would have
killed him. Darby had his life at stake but still chose to unveil the
wrongs of the soldiers in his unit which is what makes him a hero.
Brianna
Feb 6, 2011, 11:24:57 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Good question Mrs. Baran. I believe that Seymour Hersh is a great
person for letting the public know what evils that soldiers are
committing to people. It was very necessary for Americans to punish
those who committed such heinous crimes. In My Lai, if people did not
find out about that, all of those innocent lives slain would have been
forgotten. Thanks to Seymour they have not. Joe Darby did the right
thing by turning in the pictures. If he hadn't turned in the pictures
then no one but the prisoners and soldiers would have known and this
could have still been going on today with more innocent dead.
person for letting the public know what evils that soldiers are
committing to people. It was very necessary for Americans to punish
those who committed such heinous crimes. In My Lai, if people did not
find out about that, all of those innocent lives slain would have been
forgotten. Thanks to Seymour they have not. Joe Darby did the right
thing by turning in the pictures. If he hadn't turned in the pictures
then no one but the prisoners and soldiers would have known and this
could have still been going on today with more innocent dead.
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