Reading #8, Question #2
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Jason Guy
Feb 17, 2011, 10:55:51 PM2/17/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Do you think that O'Briens cruel form of revenge on the medic Bobby
Jorgenson was understandable or justified by O'Briens near death
experience?
Jorgenson was understandable or justified by O'Briens near death
experience?
Ralph Recto
Feb 19, 2011, 11:54:39 AM2/19/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's a good question, Jason.
While a near-death experience is something that is not so easily
forgotten, I think that O'Brien's revenge on Jorgenson was unjustified
since his fumble was a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to kill.
It was Jorgenson's true first day on the job, his first firefight, his
first patient on the field, and it was simply too many firsts to
expect a perfect job from him. Put in his shoes, I would wager that
most people wouldn't be able to tie their shoes in the midst of the
firefight. On some level I can see O'Brien's need for revenge - it was
his life, after all, and it is not much to expect a medic to know what
to do in such a routine situation - but I cannot agree with it. By the
end of story, he himself acknowledges this and regrets the whole plan,
imploring his partner-in-crime, Azar, to "come on...just quit" (202).
The plan could've ended badly. Jorgenson, as part of SOP, might've
returned fire to what could very plausibly have been enemy combatants
and instead hit Azar or O'Brien. In the end, good did come out of it,
as O'Brien "told him [Jorgenson] sorry; he told me the same
thing" (207). In a war, there are simply too many enemies trying to
kill soldiers for soldiers to start trying to kill one another.
While a near-death experience is something that is not so easily
forgotten, I think that O'Brien's revenge on Jorgenson was unjustified
since his fumble was a mistake and not a deliberate attempt to kill.
It was Jorgenson's true first day on the job, his first firefight, his
first patient on the field, and it was simply too many firsts to
expect a perfect job from him. Put in his shoes, I would wager that
most people wouldn't be able to tie their shoes in the midst of the
firefight. On some level I can see O'Brien's need for revenge - it was
his life, after all, and it is not much to expect a medic to know what
to do in such a routine situation - but I cannot agree with it. By the
end of story, he himself acknowledges this and regrets the whole plan,
imploring his partner-in-crime, Azar, to "come on...just quit" (202).
The plan could've ended badly. Jorgenson, as part of SOP, might've
returned fire to what could very plausibly have been enemy combatants
and instead hit Azar or O'Brien. In the end, good did come out of it,
as O'Brien "told him [Jorgenson] sorry; he told me the same
thing" (207). In a war, there are simply too many enemies trying to
kill soldiers for soldiers to start trying to kill one another.
Lakey
Feb 19, 2011, 4:31:43 PM2/19/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I defenitely agree with Ralph that O'Brien's revenge was unjustified,
but I do think it is very understandable. It is human nature to want
to get back at someone for a wrong they did to you. Jorgenson almost
let O'Brien die on the battlefield, therefore O'Brien wanted to get
even with him, which he did. Now O'Brien has the "satisfaction" of
sharing a same horror feeling with Jorgenson. On the other hand,
although he may feel satisfaction from the scare he gave Jorgenson, it
as Sanders portrayed, was still wrong. After O'Brien asks Sanders to
help him get revenge, "Sanders shook his head" (O'Brien 191) and says
"Man, you're sick" (O'Brien 191). O'Brien seems to be hesitant to
even pull the stunt, knowing that it is wrong. He has to keep telling
himself, "this isn't for real" (O'Brien 194) and made sure Azar knew
that it was "only a game" (O'Brien 192). It is easy to see how he was
lured into taking revenge even though he had no right to.
> > experience?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
but I do think it is very understandable. It is human nature to want
to get back at someone for a wrong they did to you. Jorgenson almost
let O'Brien die on the battlefield, therefore O'Brien wanted to get
even with him, which he did. Now O'Brien has the "satisfaction" of
sharing a same horror feeling with Jorgenson. On the other hand,
although he may feel satisfaction from the scare he gave Jorgenson, it
as Sanders portrayed, was still wrong. After O'Brien asks Sanders to
help him get revenge, "Sanders shook his head" (O'Brien 191) and says
"Man, you're sick" (O'Brien 191). O'Brien seems to be hesitant to
even pull the stunt, knowing that it is wrong. He has to keep telling
himself, "this isn't for real" (O'Brien 194) and made sure Azar knew
that it was "only a game" (O'Brien 192). It is easy to see how he was
lured into taking revenge even though he had no right to.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jonathan Jackowicz
Feb 20, 2011, 11:40:34 AM2/20/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I have to disagree Lakey. I think O'Brien's desire for revenge was
completely justified. Medics are put through intensive training so
that they don't screw up. Jorgenson should have go this head together
and thought, "Ok treat for shock and make sure the stitching is
complete and sterile." In stead he completely freaks out, botches the
stitching, and almost kills O'Brien. He's lucky he wasn't dishonorably
discharged, or worse killed. So O'Brien decided to show Jorgenson what
it feels like to think you might die any second."One by one, in
sequence, I tugged on each of the ropes, and the sounds came flowing
back at me with a soft, indefinite formlessness: a rattlesnake, maybe,
of the creak of a trap door, or the footsteps in the attic--whatever
you made of it. In a way I wanted to stop myself. It was cruel, I knew
that, but right and wrong were somewhere else. I heard myself
chuckle"(198). Jorgenson needs to learn that a soldier only screws up
once.
completely justified. Medics are put through intensive training so
that they don't screw up. Jorgenson should have go this head together
and thought, "Ok treat for shock and make sure the stitching is
complete and sterile." In stead he completely freaks out, botches the
stitching, and almost kills O'Brien. He's lucky he wasn't dishonorably
discharged, or worse killed. So O'Brien decided to show Jorgenson what
it feels like to think you might die any second."One by one, in
sequence, I tugged on each of the ropes, and the sounds came flowing
back at me with a soft, indefinite formlessness: a rattlesnake, maybe,
of the creak of a trap door, or the footsteps in the attic--whatever
you made of it. In a way I wanted to stop myself. It was cruel, I knew
that, but right and wrong were somewhere else. I heard myself
chuckle"(198). Jorgenson needs to learn that a soldier only screws up
once.
Ian McKay
Feb 20, 2011, 3:39:01 PM2/20/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Ralph, Lakey, and Jonathan, you all make great points, and my opinion
is a mixture of all of yours.
I do believe O'Brien's longing for revenge is understandable, but I do
not think it was justified. Although Jorgenson did come close to
almost letting O'Brien die, it was not a purposeful act by any means.
This was Jorgenson's first day on the job. It's just like your first
day at a new school or a regular job; you are nervous and you try not
to make mistakes, but sometimes you do. "When I got shot the second
time, in the butt, along the Song Tra Bong, it took the son of a b***h
ten minutes to work up the nerve to crawl over to me...Jorgenson
didn't know about shock, or if he did, the fear made him forget. To
make it worse, he bungled the patch job, and a couple of weeks later
my a** started rotting away" (O'Brien 181). Jorgenson was extremely
nervous on his first day, and he made a couple mistakes, but he is
only human. Although Jonathan was right that medics do get intense
training so they do not make mistakes, being in training is different
than being in the field. As you might recall from the My Lai videos,
Simpson had the same problem; although he had immense basic training
on killing, when he was ordered to kill that woman in My Lai, he
froze, and he couldn't do it, but when he worked up the courage to
shoot her, killing became second nature for him. This is precisely the
scenario Jorgenson was in. When he was in the position for the first
time, he hesitated, he didn't know what to do at first and he screwed
up. He should not be blamed for his mistakes though, because this was
his first taste of real action, outside of the animations of training.
After he messed up though, he learned from his mistakes and became a
better medic. "The kid messed up bad, for sure, but you have to take
into account how green he was. Brand new, remember? Thing is, he's
doing a lot better now" (188). Jorgenson became a better medic with
each time he was called upon. He was new when O'Brien was shot, but
when Morty Phillips was disease-ridden, Jorgenson kept him alive. This
is why revenge against Jorgenson was unjustified.
It was understandable for O'Brien to want revenge on Jorgenson.
Jorgenson was a medic and was supossed to know what he was doing; this
was all O'Brien was concerned about. O'Brien didn't take into account
that this was his first day out in the field. O'Brien especially
should have realized this because O'Brien was just a college boy when
he entered the war, without any experience either. It is though,
natural instinct for human beings to want revenge against someone who
does wrong to them. Although I believe O'Brien had somewhat of a good
reason to get revenge, he did it in the wrong way; a simple punch in
the face, for example, would have been sufficient. Torturing someone
at night in Nam however, was unnecessary and cruel. The soldiers were
already terrified enough about Nam, and to attempt to torture your own
fellow soldier is wrong. Jorgenson could have gone insane that night,
he could have lost his mind and done something dramatic, such as kill
himself, or something of that nature. He also could have opened fire
and possibly shot and/or killed Azar or O'Brien. In any event, I can
understand O'Brien's desire to get revenge, but he did it the wrong
way, he should not have been so cruel, I believe if revenge would have
taken place at all, it should have been in a more face-to-face manner.
On Feb 20, 11:40 am, Jonathan Jackowicz <jjackowic...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
is a mixture of all of yours.
I do believe O'Brien's longing for revenge is understandable, but I do
not think it was justified. Although Jorgenson did come close to
almost letting O'Brien die, it was not a purposeful act by any means.
This was Jorgenson's first day on the job. It's just like your first
day at a new school or a regular job; you are nervous and you try not
to make mistakes, but sometimes you do. "When I got shot the second
time, in the butt, along the Song Tra Bong, it took the son of a b***h
ten minutes to work up the nerve to crawl over to me...Jorgenson
didn't know about shock, or if he did, the fear made him forget. To
make it worse, he bungled the patch job, and a couple of weeks later
my a** started rotting away" (O'Brien 181). Jorgenson was extremely
nervous on his first day, and he made a couple mistakes, but he is
only human. Although Jonathan was right that medics do get intense
training so they do not make mistakes, being in training is different
than being in the field. As you might recall from the My Lai videos,
Simpson had the same problem; although he had immense basic training
on killing, when he was ordered to kill that woman in My Lai, he
froze, and he couldn't do it, but when he worked up the courage to
shoot her, killing became second nature for him. This is precisely the
scenario Jorgenson was in. When he was in the position for the first
time, he hesitated, he didn't know what to do at first and he screwed
up. He should not be blamed for his mistakes though, because this was
his first taste of real action, outside of the animations of training.
After he messed up though, he learned from his mistakes and became a
better medic. "The kid messed up bad, for sure, but you have to take
into account how green he was. Brand new, remember? Thing is, he's
doing a lot better now" (188). Jorgenson became a better medic with
each time he was called upon. He was new when O'Brien was shot, but
when Morty Phillips was disease-ridden, Jorgenson kept him alive. This
is why revenge against Jorgenson was unjustified.
It was understandable for O'Brien to want revenge on Jorgenson.
Jorgenson was a medic and was supossed to know what he was doing; this
was all O'Brien was concerned about. O'Brien didn't take into account
that this was his first day out in the field. O'Brien especially
should have realized this because O'Brien was just a college boy when
he entered the war, without any experience either. It is though,
natural instinct for human beings to want revenge against someone who
does wrong to them. Although I believe O'Brien had somewhat of a good
reason to get revenge, he did it in the wrong way; a simple punch in
the face, for example, would have been sufficient. Torturing someone
at night in Nam however, was unnecessary and cruel. The soldiers were
already terrified enough about Nam, and to attempt to torture your own
fellow soldier is wrong. Jorgenson could have gone insane that night,
he could have lost his mind and done something dramatic, such as kill
himself, or something of that nature. He also could have opened fire
and possibly shot and/or killed Azar or O'Brien. In any event, I can
understand O'Brien's desire to get revenge, but he did it the wrong
way, he should not have been so cruel, I believe if revenge would have
taken place at all, it should have been in a more face-to-face manner.
On Feb 20, 11:40 am, Jonathan Jackowicz <jjackowic...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lindsay Padgett
Feb 20, 2011, 9:38:45 PM2/20/11
to tttc20...@googlegroups.com
I completely agree with the points that you made here Lakey and Ralph. Even though Jorgenson almost did kill O'Brien it was just a mistake. I can't imagine how hard it would be to get over the fact that someone almost caused me to lose my life because they didn't do what they were supposed to. I think that O'Brien should realize how devastating and shocking it must have been for Jorgenson though.It was his first time out on the battlefield and his first injury and it was a very dramatic experience. While it is understandable that O'Brien would want to get revenge on Jorgenson I don't feel like it was justified. O'Brien had such high expectations for Jorgenson, mostly I think because of how well Rat Kiley had taken care of him after he had gotten shot for the first time. "Every so often, maybe four times altogether, he trotted back to check me out."----"Easy does it," he told me, "just a side wound, no problem..." (O'Brien 180) I think since Kiley had treated O'Brien so well it was harder for him to except anything less then how he was treated by him once he got his second injuries. Wht was it supposed to prove even after O'Brien had successfully gotten revenge on Jorgenson? I feel like O'Brien should have been the stronger person and forgiven Jorgenson for his mistake and he should have tried to be a little more understanding, although it is very difficult.
Austen Stevens
Feb 20, 2011, 10:49:57 PM2/20/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
Excellent points Ralph, Lakey, and Jonathan. I do have to agree that,
while O'Brien's hatred and intense desire for revenge are
understandable due to the wrong that was dealt to him, it is by no
means justified- the revenge that O'Brien lusts for against Jorgenson
is past a simple form of recompense for wrongs committed. As O'Brien
himself admits, "I'd turned mean inside. Even a little cruel at
times... It's a hard thing to admit, even to myself, but I was capable
of evil." (O'Brien, 190-191). He let his irrational hatred toward
Jorgenson consume him entirely, invade his thoughts and motivate him
to behave in ways he would have otherwise thought barbaric. Jonathan
does make a good point that Jorgenson should have been properly
trained in all of the standard procedures to be performed upon aiding
someone who has been shot, yet Jorgenson must be given some credit- as
Lindsay pointed out, this is Jorgenson's first firefight, and under
such pressure for the very first time, one cannot be expected to
perform perfectly. Some procedures may be forgotten. O'Brien's life
was on the line due to massive bleeding and the onset of shock, for
certain, and anger toward Jorgenson, who was seen as "green,
incompetent, and scared," is comprehensible (O'Brien, 181). The
incomprehensible point, however, is the desire to cause intense pain
to a person in return, rather than practicing a policy of forgive and
[certainly not] forget.
On Feb 20, 9:38 pm, Lindsay Padgett <linds.m.padg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I completely agree with the points that you made here Lakey and Ralph. Even
> though Jorgenson almost did kill O'Brien it was just a mistake. I can't
> imagine how hard it would be to get over the fact that someone almost caused
> me to lose my life because they didn't do what they were supposed to. I
> think that O'Brien should realize how devastating and shocking it must have
> been for Jorgenson though.It was his first time out on the battlefield and
> his first injury and it was a very dramatic experience. While it is
> understandable that O'Brien would want to get revenge on Jorgenson I don't
> feel like it was justified. O'Brien had such high expectations for
> Jorgenson, mostly I think because of how well Rat Kiley had taken care of
> him after he had gotten shot for the first time. "Every so often, maybe four
> times altogether, he trotted back to check me out."----"Easy does it," he
> told me, "just a side wound, no problem..." (O'Brien 180) I think since
> Kiley had treated O'Brien so well it was harder for him to except anything
> less then how he was treated by him once he got his second injuries. Wht was
> it supposed to prove even after O'Brien had successfully gotten revenge on
> Jorgenson? I feel like O'Brien should have been the stronger person and
> forgiven Jorgenson for his mistake and he should have tried to be a little
> more understanding, although it is very difficult.
>
while O'Brien's hatred and intense desire for revenge are
understandable due to the wrong that was dealt to him, it is by no
means justified- the revenge that O'Brien lusts for against Jorgenson
is past a simple form of recompense for wrongs committed. As O'Brien
himself admits, "I'd turned mean inside. Even a little cruel at
times... It's a hard thing to admit, even to myself, but I was capable
of evil." (O'Brien, 190-191). He let his irrational hatred toward
Jorgenson consume him entirely, invade his thoughts and motivate him
to behave in ways he would have otherwise thought barbaric. Jonathan
does make a good point that Jorgenson should have been properly
trained in all of the standard procedures to be performed upon aiding
someone who has been shot, yet Jorgenson must be given some credit- as
Lindsay pointed out, this is Jorgenson's first firefight, and under
such pressure for the very first time, one cannot be expected to
perform perfectly. Some procedures may be forgotten. O'Brien's life
was on the line due to massive bleeding and the onset of shock, for
certain, and anger toward Jorgenson, who was seen as "green,
incompetent, and scared," is comprehensible (O'Brien, 181). The
incomprehensible point, however, is the desire to cause intense pain
to a person in return, rather than practicing a policy of forgive and
[certainly not] forget.
On Feb 20, 9:38 pm, Lindsay Padgett <linds.m.padg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I completely agree with the points that you made here Lakey and Ralph. Even
> though Jorgenson almost did kill O'Brien it was just a mistake. I can't
> imagine how hard it would be to get over the fact that someone almost caused
> me to lose my life because they didn't do what they were supposed to. I
> think that O'Brien should realize how devastating and shocking it must have
> been for Jorgenson though.It was his first time out on the battlefield and
> his first injury and it was a very dramatic experience. While it is
> understandable that O'Brien would want to get revenge on Jorgenson I don't
> feel like it was justified. O'Brien had such high expectations for
> Jorgenson, mostly I think because of how well Rat Kiley had taken care of
> him after he had gotten shot for the first time. "Every so often, maybe four
> times altogether, he trotted back to check me out."----"Easy does it," he
> told me, "just a side wound, no problem..." (O'Brien 180) I think since
> Kiley had treated O'Brien so well it was harder for him to except anything
> less then how he was treated by him once he got his second injuries. Wht was
> it supposed to prove even after O'Brien had successfully gotten revenge on
> Jorgenson? I feel like O'Brien should have been the stronger person and
> forgiven Jorgenson for his mistake and he should have tried to be a little
> more understanding, although it is very difficult.
>
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