Reading #4, Question 1
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Jonathan Jackowicz
Feb 3, 2011, 7:59:09 PM2/3/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
What do you think was the purpose of mentioning the week long stay
with the old man at the docks?
with the old man at the docks?
Emily Richards
Feb 5, 2011, 11:03:55 PM2/5/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's a great question, Jonathan. I believe that the purpose of
mentioning O'Brien's stay with Elroy Berdahl is that he wants readers
to understand why he decided to go to war. He discusses earlier in the
chapter how he couldn't decide whether to run away to Canada, or to be
a hero and go to the war. He says he doesn't believe in this war, but
that he knows he will be a coward if he runs away, and he doesn't want
to disgrace his family. So he starts driving, and he arrives at the
Tip Top Lodge, where he meets and stays with Elroy Berdahl. While
Elroy doesn't seem to be significant, he makes a big impact on
O'Brien, as Tim mentions: "The man who opened the door that day is the
hero of my life...the man saved me" (O'Brien 46). I think the purpose
of this story is to help us understand how he saved Tim and the
significance of this man on Tim's life. He is described as quiet, but
O'Brien often says that he thought Elroy knew what he was thinking. He
knew that he was drafted without O'Brien having to tell him. He takes
Tim up the Rainy River and into Canada, where Tim finally decides that
he must go to war. He thinks that Elroy purposely does this, although
he can't be sure. He accredits this decision to Elroy, and he believes
that because of Elroy, he made a decision that changed his life. Tim
O'Brien goes as far as saying, "He was simply there, like the river
and the late-summer sun. And yet by his presence, his mute
watchfulness, he made it real. He was the true audience. He was a
witness, like God, or like the gods, who look on in absolute silence
as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make
them" (O'Brien 57). This means that just through his presence and
through the week he spent with Tim, Elroy helped him make the hardest
decision he ever had to make. I think physically taking O'Brien to
Canada and giving him the choice to jump into the water and to the
shore made Tim decide right there on the boat whether or not to go to
war, but I also think the things Elroy did and didn't say to O'Brien
made him decide to go to war. He helped O'Brien make the hardest
decision of his life, making him significant in Tim's story and in his
life.
mentioning O'Brien's stay with Elroy Berdahl is that he wants readers
to understand why he decided to go to war. He discusses earlier in the
chapter how he couldn't decide whether to run away to Canada, or to be
a hero and go to the war. He says he doesn't believe in this war, but
that he knows he will be a coward if he runs away, and he doesn't want
to disgrace his family. So he starts driving, and he arrives at the
Tip Top Lodge, where he meets and stays with Elroy Berdahl. While
Elroy doesn't seem to be significant, he makes a big impact on
O'Brien, as Tim mentions: "The man who opened the door that day is the
hero of my life...the man saved me" (O'Brien 46). I think the purpose
of this story is to help us understand how he saved Tim and the
significance of this man on Tim's life. He is described as quiet, but
O'Brien often says that he thought Elroy knew what he was thinking. He
knew that he was drafted without O'Brien having to tell him. He takes
Tim up the Rainy River and into Canada, where Tim finally decides that
he must go to war. He thinks that Elroy purposely does this, although
he can't be sure. He accredits this decision to Elroy, and he believes
that because of Elroy, he made a decision that changed his life. Tim
O'Brien goes as far as saying, "He was simply there, like the river
and the late-summer sun. And yet by his presence, his mute
watchfulness, he made it real. He was the true audience. He was a
witness, like God, or like the gods, who look on in absolute silence
as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make
them" (O'Brien 57). This means that just through his presence and
through the week he spent with Tim, Elroy helped him make the hardest
decision he ever had to make. I think physically taking O'Brien to
Canada and giving him the choice to jump into the water and to the
shore made Tim decide right there on the boat whether or not to go to
war, but I also think the things Elroy did and didn't say to O'Brien
made him decide to go to war. He helped O'Brien make the hardest
decision of his life, making him significant in Tim's story and in his
life.
Rosemary
Feb 6, 2011, 4:51:41 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I agree, Emily, and I think Tim O’Brien also uses this story to show
the change in himself that occurred before he could accept going to
war. When he was at Tip Top Lodge, he felt as if he had "slipped out
of [his] own skin, hovering a few feet away while some poor yo-yo with
[his] name and face tried to make his way toward a future he didn't
understand and didn't want" (O’Brien 52). He watched himself decide
how he was going to live his life, on the run or in war, and he
eventually fought the war, lived, and came back down to himself. He
not only fought a war in Vietnam but a war within himself. He states
"[he] can see [himself] as [he] was then" (52). He shows how two
different people have lived in his body, the Tim who existed before
the war and the Tim who came after. O’Brien uses "On the Rainy River"
to emphasize the separation and changes that occur within a person
fighting a war.
On Feb 5, 11:03 pm, Emily Richards <emilynicholericha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > with the old man at the docks?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
the change in himself that occurred before he could accept going to
war. When he was at Tip Top Lodge, he felt as if he had "slipped out
of [his] own skin, hovering a few feet away while some poor yo-yo with
[his] name and face tried to make his way toward a future he didn't
understand and didn't want" (O’Brien 52). He watched himself decide
how he was going to live his life, on the run or in war, and he
eventually fought the war, lived, and came back down to himself. He
not only fought a war in Vietnam but a war within himself. He states
"[he] can see [himself] as [he] was then" (52). He shows how two
different people have lived in his body, the Tim who existed before
the war and the Tim who came after. O’Brien uses "On the Rainy River"
to emphasize the separation and changes that occur within a person
fighting a war.
On Feb 5, 11:03 pm, Emily Richards <emilynicholericha...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Logan Torgerson
Feb 6, 2011, 4:52:45 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I agree with Emily's point, but I also think he mentions his stay with
Elroy Berdahl because it was the turning point in his life. O'Brien
had a life-altering choice to make, and the possibilities churn in the
pit of his stomach until he cannot bare it anymore. He states that,
"I remember the rage in my stomach. Later it burned down to a
smoldering self-pity, then to numbness." (O'Brien 40). He
contemplated whether he should run away to Canada and be a coward or
fulfill his duties in the war and become an American hero. The day he
up and left work, packed his bags and headed towards the Canadian
border without notice is the point when O'Brien felt lost and did not
know what else to do. Elory and O'Brien never specifically converse
about O'Brien's dilemma and fear of going into war, but it is said
that it seemed as if Elroy already knew why O'Brien was there and he
could tell what O'Brien was thinking. O'Brien says, "He offered
exactly what I needed, without questions, without any words at all.
He took me in. " (O'Brien 46). Elroy took O'Brien fishing on the
Rainy River across the border on his last day there because he knew it
was exactly what O'Brien needed to see that the right choice would be
going to war. Sitting on the boat crying and having the feeling of
drowning, was the turning point in O'Brien's life. He realized that
he couldn't leave behind his family, friends, and town to trade for
the the life of a coward and runaway. Elroy saved O'Brien from
choosing the wrong life, whether Elroy seemed significant or not.
Elroy Berdahl because it was the turning point in his life. O'Brien
had a life-altering choice to make, and the possibilities churn in the
pit of his stomach until he cannot bare it anymore. He states that,
"I remember the rage in my stomach. Later it burned down to a
smoldering self-pity, then to numbness." (O'Brien 40). He
contemplated whether he should run away to Canada and be a coward or
fulfill his duties in the war and become an American hero. The day he
up and left work, packed his bags and headed towards the Canadian
border without notice is the point when O'Brien felt lost and did not
know what else to do. Elory and O'Brien never specifically converse
about O'Brien's dilemma and fear of going into war, but it is said
that it seemed as if Elroy already knew why O'Brien was there and he
could tell what O'Brien was thinking. O'Brien says, "He offered
exactly what I needed, without questions, without any words at all.
He took me in. " (O'Brien 46). Elroy took O'Brien fishing on the
Rainy River across the border on his last day there because he knew it
was exactly what O'Brien needed to see that the right choice would be
going to war. Sitting on the boat crying and having the feeling of
drowning, was the turning point in O'Brien's life. He realized that
he couldn't leave behind his family, friends, and town to trade for
the the life of a coward and runaway. Elroy saved O'Brien from
choosing the wrong life, whether Elroy seemed significant or not.
Raymond
Feb 6, 2011, 9:41:59 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I think that O'Brien mentioned his week with Elroy Berdahl because
that week was the biggest turning point in his life. When O'Brien
received his draft notice, he couldn't believe it. "I was too good for
this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn't
happen. I was above it," (39). After thinking about fleeing to Canada
he feels "something break open in [his] chest," and starts the drive
north to the Canadian border (44). He is greeted by Elroy Berdahl at
the Tip Top Lodge. While at the lodge, O'Brien constantly struggles
with whether he should go to Canada or fight. Berdahl never asks
O'Brien why he is at the lodge or confront him about his wanting to
flee. "I would go to the war--I would kill and maybe die--because I
was embarrassed not to," (57). O'Brien makes this realization while
with Berdahl within 20 yards of the Canadian border. O'Brien mentions
Berdahl because this realization that was made while in the company of
Berdahl affected the rest of his life. Berdahl made him realize that
he could not flee because he would be a coward if he did.
that week was the biggest turning point in his life. When O'Brien
received his draft notice, he couldn't believe it. "I was too good for
this war. Too smart, too compassionate, too everything. It couldn't
happen. I was above it," (39). After thinking about fleeing to Canada
he feels "something break open in [his] chest," and starts the drive
north to the Canadian border (44). He is greeted by Elroy Berdahl at
the Tip Top Lodge. While at the lodge, O'Brien constantly struggles
with whether he should go to Canada or fight. Berdahl never asks
O'Brien why he is at the lodge or confront him about his wanting to
flee. "I would go to the war--I would kill and maybe die--because I
was embarrassed not to," (57). O'Brien makes this realization while
with Berdahl within 20 yards of the Canadian border. O'Brien mentions
Berdahl because this realization that was made while in the company of
Berdahl affected the rest of his life. Berdahl made him realize that
he could not flee because he would be a coward if he did.
Ashton Trice
Feb 6, 2011, 9:54:50 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I agree with Logan. O’Brien emphasized the week long stay at Elroy
Berdahl’s because it determined how he was going to live the rest of
his life. If he decided to head off to Canada, he would have to leave
his friend and family behind to be remembered as a coward. O’Brien
chose to head back to his home and face his destiny of going to the
war instead. His stay with Elroy was significant because it gave him
an opportunity to make his own decision. One night when O’Brien was on
the river with Elroy, he “gripped the edge of the boat and leaned
forward and thought, Now” (O’Brien 56). In that moment, he made the
most important decision of his life. If he jumped off the boat and
swam to the Canadian border, his life would be different. O’Brien
wouldn’t have experienced the hardship of the war. He wouldn’t have
met his fellow soldiers such as Jimmy Cross or Ted Lavender. "The
Things They Carried" wouldn’t have been written if O’Brien didn’t
accept his fate. I think O’Brien’s stay with Elroy also made him feel
more confident going into the war. He made his own decision to go into
the war instead of letting a draft tell him to. He had the opportunity
to flee to Canada to avoid the war, but he felt that it would be best
to go to war instead.
Berdahl’s because it determined how he was going to live the rest of
his life. If he decided to head off to Canada, he would have to leave
his friend and family behind to be remembered as a coward. O’Brien
chose to head back to his home and face his destiny of going to the
war instead. His stay with Elroy was significant because it gave him
an opportunity to make his own decision. One night when O’Brien was on
the river with Elroy, he “gripped the edge of the boat and leaned
forward and thought, Now” (O’Brien 56). In that moment, he made the
most important decision of his life. If he jumped off the boat and
swam to the Canadian border, his life would be different. O’Brien
wouldn’t have experienced the hardship of the war. He wouldn’t have
met his fellow soldiers such as Jimmy Cross or Ted Lavender. "The
Things They Carried" wouldn’t have been written if O’Brien didn’t
accept his fate. I think O’Brien’s stay with Elroy also made him feel
more confident going into the war. He made his own decision to go into
the war instead of letting a draft tell him to. He had the opportunity
to flee to Canada to avoid the war, but he felt that it would be best
to go to war instead.
Meagan
Feb 6, 2011, 10:31:19 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
That's an interesting question, Jonathan. I disagree, though, to
Emily's statement that Elroy Berdahl is the reason O' Brien decided to
go to war. I definitely agree that he was significant, and a
facilitator in that decision, but I also think that he was only that--
a facilitator. He didn't offer O' Brien any spoken advice or opinion,
but was merely a strong figure in a rocky time for O' Brien. O' Brien
felt strongly for the old man, and appreciated his hospitality,
saying, "the man who opened the door that day is the hero of my
life...the man saved me" (O' Brien 46). However, no one but Tim O'
Brien himself could ever make the decision to go to war or run away.
When O' Brien received his draft notice, he more or less lost touch
with the reality of his life, and became overwhelmed physically and
emotionally by the idea of a new life in Vietnam. He simply needed a
place to get away, a place to think about his next step in life.
Berdahl and the Tip Top Lodge fit that necessity and quietly fostered
O' Brien's decision to enter the war, instead of running to Canada.
The lodge and its operator represented a turning point in O' Brien's
life, but they did not solely represent the reason O' Brien decided to
go to war.
Emily's statement that Elroy Berdahl is the reason O' Brien decided to
go to war. I definitely agree that he was significant, and a
facilitator in that decision, but I also think that he was only that--
a facilitator. He didn't offer O' Brien any spoken advice or opinion,
but was merely a strong figure in a rocky time for O' Brien. O' Brien
felt strongly for the old man, and appreciated his hospitality,
saying, "the man who opened the door that day is the hero of my
life...the man saved me" (O' Brien 46). However, no one but Tim O'
Brien himself could ever make the decision to go to war or run away.
When O' Brien received his draft notice, he more or less lost touch
with the reality of his life, and became overwhelmed physically and
emotionally by the idea of a new life in Vietnam. He simply needed a
place to get away, a place to think about his next step in life.
Berdahl and the Tip Top Lodge fit that necessity and quietly fostered
O' Brien's decision to enter the war, instead of running to Canada.
The lodge and its operator represented a turning point in O' Brien's
life, but they did not solely represent the reason O' Brien decided to
go to war.
Kierra W.
Feb 6, 2011, 11:38:21 PM2/6/11
to The Things They Carried discussion, spring 2011 (green)
I like Emily's thoughts towards Elroy Berdahl being the reason he went
to war was why this story was mentioned but I think that the man
simply served as a short term companion that wasn't there to judge
when others would. The purpose behind this particular story would be
that O'Brien's time at Tip Top Lodge was for him to wind down and to
figure out what the sensible thing for him to do was. It was his
turning point because he decided to go on to war instead of fleeing
away to Canada. Before coming to that conclusion O'Brien struggled for
the entire week with just that question on his mind and an over
sensitive sense of his surrounds which put him on the edge. His
"conscience told me to run, but some irrational and powerful force was
resisting, like a weight pushing me toward the war."(O'Brien 49).
to war was why this story was mentioned but I think that the man
simply served as a short term companion that wasn't there to judge
when others would. The purpose behind this particular story would be
that O'Brien's time at Tip Top Lodge was for him to wind down and to
figure out what the sensible thing for him to do was. It was his
turning point because he decided to go on to war instead of fleeing
away to Canada. Before coming to that conclusion O'Brien struggled for
the entire week with just that question on his mind and an over
sensitive sense of his surrounds which put him on the edge. His
"conscience told me to run, but some irrational and powerful force was
resisting, like a weight pushing me toward the war."(O'Brien 49).
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