Reading #9, Question #1
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Kevin
Feb 19, 2011, 12:10:23 PM2/19/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
"Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
the same of the other soldiers? Why or why not?
"Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
the same of the other soldiers? Why or why not?
Nojai
Feb 22, 2011, 2:51:31 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I think Norman Bowker was led in hanging himself because he felt that
he didn't have anything else to do with his life. He spent his
evenings driving "around town in his father's car, mostly alone, or
with a six-pack of beer, cruising" (O'Brien 156). I believe that there
were various amounts of causes that could have pushed him over the
edge to hang himself. Bowker was described as being alone, "lived with
his parents...[seeming] too abstract, too distant, with nothing real
or tangible at stake" (155). He worked at multiple jobs but only
temporarily and he eventually just "spent his mornings in
bed..play[ing] pick up basketball at the Y," and then drving around
alone (155). Bowker repeatedly reminded himself on how he could've
have saved his friend "Kiowa [as he] just disappeared into the
crud" (157). He constantly blames himself which, I believe, made him
feel like he had a "problem finding a meaningful use for his life
after the war" (155). I do think that other soldier's wanted out but I
don't think that killing themselves was their final choice. I believe
that causing displeasure for themselves or inflicting pain amongst
themselves was a more used choice of outlet. When Rat Kiley wanted out
he "took off his boots and socks...doped himself up, and put a round
in his foot" (223). I believe that depending on the soldier's
situation or mind frame drove them to commit different actions.
he didn't have anything else to do with his life. He spent his
evenings driving "around town in his father's car, mostly alone, or
with a six-pack of beer, cruising" (O'Brien 156). I believe that there
were various amounts of causes that could have pushed him over the
edge to hang himself. Bowker was described as being alone, "lived with
his parents...[seeming] too abstract, too distant, with nothing real
or tangible at stake" (155). He worked at multiple jobs but only
temporarily and he eventually just "spent his mornings in
bed..play[ing] pick up basketball at the Y," and then drving around
alone (155). Bowker repeatedly reminded himself on how he could've
have saved his friend "Kiowa [as he] just disappeared into the
crud" (157). He constantly blames himself which, I believe, made him
feel like he had a "problem finding a meaningful use for his life
after the war" (155). I do think that other soldier's wanted out but I
don't think that killing themselves was their final choice. I believe
that causing displeasure for themselves or inflicting pain amongst
themselves was a more used choice of outlet. When Rat Kiley wanted out
he "took off his boots and socks...doped himself up, and put a round
in his foot" (223). I believe that depending on the soldier's
situation or mind frame drove them to commit different actions.
Natese
Feb 22, 2011, 2:50:30 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
The war dramatically changed Norman Bowker and he didn't feel like
the same person. To Bowker it seemed as if he "got killed over in Nam"
and his life basically has no purpose anymore (O'Brien). Everyone in
his small town seemed to move on in seemed to have no part to do with
him. Having no one to talk to about a critical part of his life drove
Bowker insane and it seemed the only people he had for companionship
had either died, they didn't care, or they had moved on. Although his
parents loved him, they seemed to be the only ones that cared. The war
had proved many soldier's to become insane and result in commiting
suicide. Varnado Simpson was an actual participant in the Vietnam war
and he believed commiting suicide was the only answer to end his
suffering. He was successful in his third attempt. Being able to live
with seeing such violence can only be succumbed my death.
the same person. To Bowker it seemed as if he "got killed over in Nam"
and his life basically has no purpose anymore (O'Brien). Everyone in
his small town seemed to move on in seemed to have no part to do with
him. Having no one to talk to about a critical part of his life drove
Bowker insane and it seemed the only people he had for companionship
had either died, they didn't care, or they had moved on. Although his
parents loved him, they seemed to be the only ones that cared. The war
had proved many soldier's to become insane and result in commiting
suicide. Varnado Simpson was an actual participant in the Vietnam war
and he believed commiting suicide was the only answer to end his
suffering. He was successful in his third attempt. Being able to live
with seeing such violence can only be succumbed my death.
Maeha Karlow
Feb 22, 2011, 5:54:03 PM2/22/11
to tttc20...@googlegroups.com
In all the posts so far, I have found something I agree with. I admire Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves] out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself" (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously, since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to the whole tragedy.
Maeha Karlow
Feb 22, 2011, 6:18:01 PM2/22/11
to tttc20...@googlegroups.com
Ha, well Kevin, what are the "basic" reasons? (You don't have to answer that). There is a plentitude of causes for his suicide. It could be something we have no clue about--something totally off the wall. Maybe he was tired of losing basketball games at the "Y;" he could have gone mad; he was sick and tired of that little town and doing/seeing the same thing everyday. Bowkers could have killed himself because he was angry at everyone who didn't appreciate him, as a soldier and/or an individual. It is a story that can be looked at from many angles: inside and out, deeply or shallow.
On Feb 22, 2011 6:01 PM, "Kevin" <rknig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Natese and Maeha make excellent points, Varnado was the one person I
> thought about when I read the chapter, and I also agree with Maeha's
> statement about how being lonely could cause him to commit suicide as
> well. Are there any different reasons you may be able to think of
> besides the basic ones?
>
> On Feb 22, 5:54 pm, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
> wrote:
>> In all the posts so far, I have found something I agree with. I admire
>> Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman
>> Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what
>> drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants
>> to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is
>> sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His
>> father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new
>> last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by
>> the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs
>> himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly
>> asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody
>> does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to
>> hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps
>> what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves]
>> out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself"
>> (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a
>> decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about
>> Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously,
>> since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to
>> the whole tragedy.
>>
>> On Feb 19, 2011 12:10 PM, "Kevin" <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
>> > "Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
>> > What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
>> > locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
>> > What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
>> > where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
>> > the same of the other soldiers? Why or why not?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
Kevin
Feb 22, 2011, 6:01:42 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
Natese and Maeha make excellent points, Varnado was the one person I
thought about when I read the chapter, and I also agree with Maeha's
statement about how being lonely could cause him to commit suicide as
well. Are there any different reasons you may be able to think of
besides the basic ones?
On Feb 22, 5:54 pm, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:
thought about when I read the chapter, and I also agree with Maeha's
statement about how being lonely could cause him to commit suicide as
well. Are there any different reasons you may be able to think of
besides the basic ones?
On Feb 22, 5:54 pm, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:
> In all the posts so far, I have found something I agree with. I admire
> Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman
> Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what
> drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants
> to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is
> sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His
> father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new
> last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by
> the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs
> himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly
> asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody
> does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to
> hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps
> what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves]
> out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself"
> (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a
> decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about
> Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously,
> since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to
> the whole tragedy.
>
> Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman
> Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what
> drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants
> to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is
> sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His
> father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new
> last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by
> the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs
> himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly
> asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody
> does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to
> hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps
> what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves]
> out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself"
> (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a
> decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about
> Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously,
> since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to
> the whole tragedy.
>
> On Feb 19, 2011 12:10 PM, "Kevin" <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
> > "Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
> > What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
> > locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
> > What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
> > where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
>
>
>
> > In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
> > "Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
> > What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
> > locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
> > What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
> > where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
Nicole
Feb 22, 2011, 4:58:14 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
When soldiers come home from being in a place that is completely
traumatizing, they can become depressed. Norman was just a young man
when he went to war and he had his whole life ahead of him, but the
war changed that. He witnessed things no young person should have to
see and it changed his state of mind. " What you should do, Tim, is
write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that
shithole," Norman is reffering to the way he feels and how he is
emotionally dead inside (O'Brien, 151). another good qoute that shows
his depression and state of mind is, " This guy wants to talk about
it, but he can't...."(O'Brien, 151). The quote from his letter shows
that sometimes people who go to war want to just scream out how they
feel and talk about what they saw, but the truth is, they can't. I
believe that a lot of the soliders who were over there had the same
issues. They bottled up their feelings and felt they could talk to
other men/women who lived through the same horrors. Most veterans do
not like to relive what happened. Either they feel guilt about killing
or just cannot talk about the horrors of war. War is something that
can scarr a person mentally and physically. I want to relate back to
Vernado, the man from the My Lai video. He was put on about 9
different anti-depressants and had a nevous hand gesture that he
always did. He also kept a scrap book of My Lai and picture of the
people he killed saying, "This is my life."(Johnson). A few years
after he was interviewed, he succeeded in killing himself after
failing 3 times before. So this is common amongst soliders.
traumatizing, they can become depressed. Norman was just a young man
when he went to war and he had his whole life ahead of him, but the
war changed that. He witnessed things no young person should have to
see and it changed his state of mind. " What you should do, Tim, is
write a story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that
shithole," Norman is reffering to the way he feels and how he is
emotionally dead inside (O'Brien, 151). another good qoute that shows
his depression and state of mind is, " This guy wants to talk about
it, but he can't...."(O'Brien, 151). The quote from his letter shows
that sometimes people who go to war want to just scream out how they
feel and talk about what they saw, but the truth is, they can't. I
believe that a lot of the soliders who were over there had the same
issues. They bottled up their feelings and felt they could talk to
other men/women who lived through the same horrors. Most veterans do
not like to relive what happened. Either they feel guilt about killing
or just cannot talk about the horrors of war. War is something that
can scarr a person mentally and physically. I want to relate back to
Vernado, the man from the My Lai video. He was put on about 9
different anti-depressants and had a nevous hand gesture that he
always did. He also kept a scrap book of My Lai and picture of the
people he killed saying, "This is my life."(Johnson). A few years
after he was interviewed, he succeeded in killing himself after
failing 3 times before. So this is common amongst soliders.
Robin B.
Feb 22, 2011, 5:18:34 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
Both Nojai and Natese bring up very great points. I agree one hundred
percent. There is no doubt that war dramatically changes every soldier
who enters it. The war becomes their life and sometimes stays with
them for a while after, just like Norman Bowker. He didn't have an
optimistic outlook on the future. He even said "It's almost like I got
killed over in Nam..., Feels like I'm still in deep shit" (O'Brien,
156). Bowker also didn't have anyone to talk to, he was always a quiet
boy. He kept all of his emotions balled up inside him, and its almost
as if they were tying him down. He didn't like to socialize or be with
people, he enjoyed the quiet. I think not expressing his feelings led
him deeper into insanity and to the extreme of killing himself. I
think other soldiers could well enough take the same escape. Some
soldiers don't want to live after they have been traumatized because
they want to be free of the haunting memories. In a way, death is
their only chance to be happy because they won't have to experience
the nightmares from war ever again, guaranteed. Others may choose to
recieve therapy, but that doesn't erase your memory completely. It is
a possibly that many soldiers would choose suicide as their way out.
percent. There is no doubt that war dramatically changes every soldier
who enters it. The war becomes their life and sometimes stays with
them for a while after, just like Norman Bowker. He didn't have an
optimistic outlook on the future. He even said "It's almost like I got
killed over in Nam..., Feels like I'm still in deep shit" (O'Brien,
156). Bowker also didn't have anyone to talk to, he was always a quiet
boy. He kept all of his emotions balled up inside him, and its almost
as if they were tying him down. He didn't like to socialize or be with
people, he enjoyed the quiet. I think not expressing his feelings led
him deeper into insanity and to the extreme of killing himself. I
think other soldiers could well enough take the same escape. Some
soldiers don't want to live after they have been traumatized because
they want to be free of the haunting memories. In a way, death is
their only chance to be happy because they won't have to experience
the nightmares from war ever again, guaranteed. Others may choose to
recieve therapy, but that doesn't erase your memory completely. It is
a possibly that many soldiers would choose suicide as their way out.
carla downs
Feb 22, 2011, 5:14:49 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
This is a great question that goes well with the stages of grief we
discussed in class. I agree with the points that Natese and Nojai
made, but I think the main factor that pushed Norman Bowker to the
point of suicide was a lack of communication. Sometimes it can help
the soldiers to talk with each other or write down how they feel as an
outlet. As O'Brien says "Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable
process, like clearing the throat. Partly catharsis, partly
communication, it was a way of grabbing people by the shirt and
explaining what had happened" (O'Brien 157-158). Without
communication O'Brien could have ended up the same way Bowker did, but
O'Brien turned his war experiences into story time. Bowker failed to
focus on the positive things he got out of war, leading to depression
and eventually suicide. I think Bowler felt suicide was his only way
to communicate with others. This could and probably was the outcome
for some soldiers, because they just didn't know how to handle the
experience. They would try to take their mind off bad experiences by
working, going to school or playing "pickup basketball at the Y," but
they ultimately couldn't get over their experiences during war
(O'Brien 155).
discussed in class. I agree with the points that Natese and Nojai
made, but I think the main factor that pushed Norman Bowker to the
point of suicide was a lack of communication. Sometimes it can help
the soldiers to talk with each other or write down how they feel as an
outlet. As O'Brien says "Telling stories seemed a natural, inevitable
process, like clearing the throat. Partly catharsis, partly
communication, it was a way of grabbing people by the shirt and
explaining what had happened" (O'Brien 157-158). Without
communication O'Brien could have ended up the same way Bowker did, but
O'Brien turned his war experiences into story time. Bowker failed to
focus on the positive things he got out of war, leading to depression
and eventually suicide. I think Bowler felt suicide was his only way
to communicate with others. This could and probably was the outcome
for some soldiers, because they just didn't know how to handle the
experience. They would try to take their mind off bad experiences by
working, going to school or playing "pickup basketball at the Y," but
they ultimately couldn't get over their experiences during war
(O'Brien 155).
Nicole
Feb 22, 2011, 5:26:13 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
Norman Bower was just a young man when he went to war. He had his
whole life ahead of him and instead, he saw things that no young
person should have to see, and it scarred him for life. There are
horrible things that happen in war, that no human should have to
witness or be part of. Soldiers, who fight in any war, can leave
emotionally scarred. I believe that they can become depressed and
unable to fully function in a normal setting. Norman showed signs of
depression in his letter to Tim. "What you should do, Tim, is write a
cannot live (O'Brien,151). Another qoute that fits this arguement is,
"This guy wants to talk about it, but he can't...", Norman feels like
no one would be able to understand how he feels so he continues to
keep things inside (O'Brien,151). Most men/women who participated in
the Vietman War feel as though they cannot talk about what happened.
They kept their emotions bottled up inside and felt as though they
could only talk to others who were there with them. Some could not
even do that. I want to referr back to Vernado Johnson in the My Lai
video. He was part of a mission that would take control of his
emotions for the rest of his life. He took about 9 or more anti-
depressants and kept a scrap book and picture of the people he killed
in My Lai. He told his interviewer that "This is my life." A few years
after the interview, Johnson succeeded in killing himself after
failing 3 times before. A lot of soliders cannot get back to reality
because they are haunted by what they did or saw. It is not uncommon
for soliders to commit suicide after returning from war.
whole life ahead of him and instead, he saw things that no young
person should have to see, and it scarred him for life. There are
horrible things that happen in war, that no human should have to
witness or be part of. Soldiers, who fight in any war, can leave
emotionally scarred. I believe that they can become depressed and
unable to fully function in a normal setting. Norman showed signs of
depression in his letter to Tim. "What you should do, Tim, is write a
story about a guy who feels like he got zapped over in that shithole,"
Norman feels dead inside, like he was killed over in Veitnam and
cannot live (O'Brien,151). Another qoute that fits this arguement is,
"This guy wants to talk about it, but he can't...", Norman feels like
no one would be able to understand how he feels so he continues to
keep things inside (O'Brien,151). Most men/women who participated in
the Vietman War feel as though they cannot talk about what happened.
They kept their emotions bottled up inside and felt as though they
could only talk to others who were there with them. Some could not
even do that. I want to referr back to Vernado Johnson in the My Lai
video. He was part of a mission that would take control of his
emotions for the rest of his life. He took about 9 or more anti-
depressants and kept a scrap book and picture of the people he killed
in My Lai. He told his interviewer that "This is my life." A few years
after the interview, Johnson succeeded in killing himself after
failing 3 times before. A lot of soliders cannot get back to reality
because they are haunted by what they did or saw. It is not uncommon
for soliders to commit suicide after returning from war.
Conley
Feb 22, 2011, 9:13:16 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
In all the posts so far I agree that Norman Bowker hung himself
because he was lonely. I also believe that he felt there was no more
meaning left in his life. When he was in Vietnam there was always a
command to follow and something to do. When he got back home he was
lost, he didn't know what to do with his life even after he tried
multiple jobs and attended a community college. It was almost as if he
wanted to be back in Vietnam; "My life, I mean. It's almost like I got
killed over their in Nam" (O'Brien 156). He feels like he left his
life in Vietnam where he belongs. I think another reason he kills
himself is not being brave enough to save Kiowa's life. "...he had
been braver than he ever thought posssible, but how he had not been so
brave as he wanted to be" (153). When he failed to save Kiowa, he saw
himself as a failure not being brave enough to save a close friend.
This is why he continues to tell how "[he] almost won the Silver
Star" (141). He thinks that he was not brave enough to save Kiowa that
night and wants to tell someone about it but he believes no one would
care. These reasons lead to his death when he eventually hangs
himself.
because he was lonely. I also believe that he felt there was no more
meaning left in his life. When he was in Vietnam there was always a
command to follow and something to do. When he got back home he was
lost, he didn't know what to do with his life even after he tried
multiple jobs and attended a community college. It was almost as if he
wanted to be back in Vietnam; "My life, I mean. It's almost like I got
killed over their in Nam" (O'Brien 156). He feels like he left his
life in Vietnam where he belongs. I think another reason he kills
himself is not being brave enough to save Kiowa's life. "...he had
been braver than he ever thought posssible, but how he had not been so
brave as he wanted to be" (153). When he failed to save Kiowa, he saw
himself as a failure not being brave enough to save a close friend.
This is why he continues to tell how "[he] almost won the Silver
Star" (141). He thinks that he was not brave enough to save Kiowa that
night and wants to tell someone about it but he believes no one would
care. These reasons lead to his death when he eventually hangs
himself.
> In all the posts so far, I have found something I agree with. I admire
> Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman
> Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what
> drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants
> to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is
> sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His
> father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new
> last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by
> the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs
> himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly
> asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody
> does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to
> hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps
> what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves]
> out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself"
> (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a
> decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about
> Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously,
> since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to
> the whole tragedy.
>
> Nicole and Natese for making the connection to Varnado Simpson. Norman
> Bowker appears to be quite lonely after the war; I believe this is what
> drives him to suicide. He wants to express his emotions to someone. He wants
> to tell how he almost won the Silver Star, to anyone who will listen. He is
> sure that no one cares to hear about the awful smell or lack of bravery. His
> father is too busy watching baseball; Sally Kramer is married now, (her new
> last name is Gustafson); his best friend, Max Arnold, is dead, drowned by
> the lake he encircles. From the time he loses Kiowa, to the moment he hangs
> himself, he feels as if "he [is] alone" (O'Brien 149). Bowker is constantly
> asking, "how'd you like to hear about--" then stopping, convinced nobody
> does want to hear (152). At least in Vietnam, is platoon cares--they want to
> hear his stories. Now he is home, and feels like a lonely coward. Perhaps
> what really makes him off himself--the last straw--is that O'Brien "le[aves]
> out Vietnam" (160). After all, "eight months later he hang[s] himself"
> (160). He potentially feels that even O'Brien doesn't care enough to write a
> decent story about him, as if O'Brien knows no one wants to hear about
> Vietnam, Kiowa, or the "shit." This inference is not the case, obviously,
> since O'Brien went through all the trouble of dedicating a few chapters to
> the whole tragedy.
>
> On Feb 19, 2011 12:10 PM, "Kevin" <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
> > "Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
> > What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
> > locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
> > What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
> > where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
>
>
>
> > In the chapter called "Notes," O'Brien talks about how he wrote
> > "Speaking of Courage" in 1975, which was suggested by Norman Bowker.
> > What do you think led to Norman Bowker "[hanging] himself in the
> > locker room of a YMCA in his hometown in central Iowa," (O'Brien 155)?
> > What do you think could have pushed him over the edge to the point
> > where sucide was his only outlet? Do you think this could have been
Andre
Feb 22, 2011, 9:54:39 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I agree with Carla, Norman Bowker experiences the stages of grief we
discussed in class. I believe his grief, in combination with, his
lack of purpose in life led Bowker to kill himself. Natese uses the
perfect quote, to Bowker it seemed as if he "got killed over in Nam,"
Bowker no longer has a purpose in life because the war was his life in
so many ways (O'Brien 156). Bowker has no purpose in his life so he
drives around the lake, drinking beer, wishing he could tell his story
to someone that actually cares to listen, someone who would
understand. I believe that is why he writes the 17 page letter to
O'Brien. He needed to tell his story to someone and after he gets it
off of his chest, he is finally able to "rest," in a sense that he is
finally at peace.
Bowker wasn't a one of a kind soldier. I'm sure other soldiers
experienced what Bowker did while others blended back into society,
like Tim O'Brien, for example. Vornardo Simpson, like Bowker, wanted
to commit suicide upon returning from 'Nam. The war was a terrible
thing and that effect it had on some people was for the worst.
> On Feb 19, 12:10 pm, Kevin <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote: h
discussed in class. I believe his grief, in combination with, his
lack of purpose in life led Bowker to kill himself. Natese uses the
perfect quote, to Bowker it seemed as if he "got killed over in Nam,"
Bowker no longer has a purpose in life because the war was his life in
so many ways (O'Brien 156). Bowker has no purpose in his life so he
drives around the lake, drinking beer, wishing he could tell his story
to someone that actually cares to listen, someone who would
understand. I believe that is why he writes the 17 page letter to
O'Brien. He needed to tell his story to someone and after he gets it
off of his chest, he is finally able to "rest," in a sense that he is
finally at peace.
Bowker wasn't a one of a kind soldier. I'm sure other soldiers
experienced what Bowker did while others blended back into society,
like Tim O'Brien, for example. Vornardo Simpson, like Bowker, wanted
to commit suicide upon returning from 'Nam. The war was a terrible
thing and that effect it had on some people was for the worst.
Jarrett Talley
Feb 22, 2011, 10:00:11 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I have to agree with you on this one Jacob that Norman Bowker killed
himself because he was lonely. I also believed he committed suicide
because Nam made him lose himself. Seeing people die every day and
being ordered what to do every waking moment of the day was nothing
like anything he had seen before, and upon coming home he couldn't
readjust to normal society. Bowker stated that, "That night when Kiowa
got wasted, I sorta sank into the sewage with him... Feels like I"m
still in deep shit" (O'Brien 156). He felt as if a large part of him
died right there in Vietnam with Kiowa, and there was no reason for
him to live anymore. Thus, causing Norman Bowker to take his own life
out of grief and trauma instilled in him by the death of Kiowa.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
himself because he was lonely. I also believed he committed suicide
because Nam made him lose himself. Seeing people die every day and
being ordered what to do every waking moment of the day was nothing
like anything he had seen before, and upon coming home he couldn't
readjust to normal society. Bowker stated that, "That night when Kiowa
got wasted, I sorta sank into the sewage with him... Feels like I"m
still in deep shit" (O'Brien 156). He felt as if a large part of him
died right there in Vietnam with Kiowa, and there was no reason for
him to live anymore. Thus, causing Norman Bowker to take his own life
out of grief and trauma instilled in him by the death of Kiowa.
Andre
Feb 22, 2011, 9:57:06 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I would like to add that Natese meant to put 156 after her quote and
her computer wouldn't allow to reply again so I'm doing it for her.
> On Feb 19, 12:10 pm, Kevin <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote:I
her computer wouldn't allow to reply again so I'm doing it for her.
Jarrett Talley
Feb 22, 2011, 10:01:37 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I have to agree with you on this one Jacob that Norman Bowker killed
himself because he was lonely. I also believed he committed suicide
because Nam made him lose himself. Seeing people die every day and
being ordered what to do every waking moment of the day was nothing
like anything he had seen before, and upon coming home he couldn't
readjust to normal society. Bowker stated that, "That night when Kiowa
got wasted, I sorta sank into the sewage with him... Feels like I"m
still in deep shit" (O'Brien 156). He felt as if a large part of him
died right there in Vietnam with Kiowa, and there was no reason for
him to live anymore. Thus, causing Norman Bowker to take his own life
out of grief and trauma instilled in him by the death of Kiowa.
himself because he was lonely. I also believed he committed suicide
because Nam made him lose himself. Seeing people die every day and
being ordered what to do every waking moment of the day was nothing
like anything he had seen before, and upon coming home he couldn't
readjust to normal society. Bowker stated that, "That night when Kiowa
got wasted, I sorta sank into the sewage with him... Feels like I"m
still in deep shit" (O'Brien 156). He felt as if a large part of him
died right there in Vietnam with Kiowa, and there was no reason for
him to live anymore. Thus, causing Norman Bowker to take his own life
out of grief and trauma instilled in him by the death of Kiowa.
Shelly
Feb 22, 2011, 10:12:17 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I agree with Nojai. Bowker feels like he is "sinking down" and like
there is nothing he can do with his life. It almost seems as though he
has served his purpose (fightin in the war) and that his life is just
pointless afterwards. In the letter that Bowker writes to O'Brien, he
talks about "a guy who can't get his act together and just drives
around town all day and can't think of any place to go and doesn't
know how to get there anyway" (O'Brien 151). I think that his
realization of what his life was like outside of the war and the
feelings of uselessness he felt were what drove him yo' the point of
suicide.
On Feb 19, 12:10 pm, Kevin <rknight...@gmail.com> wrote:
Shelly
Feb 22, 2011, 10:16:20 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
Maeha, that's a really good point. As readers we really have no idea
why he killed himself. Yes, it could have been something related to
his war experience, but it could definitely be something else,
something that we don't see.
On Feb 22, 6:18 pm, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:
why he killed himself. Yes, it could have been something related to
his war experience, but it could definitely be something else,
something that we don't see.
On Feb 22, 6:18 pm, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:
> Ha, well Kevin, what are the "basic" reasons? (You don't have to answer
> that). There is a plentitude of causes for his suicide. It could be
> something we have no clue about--something totally off the wall. Maybe he
> was tired of losing basketball games at the "Y;" he could have gone mad; he
> was sick and tired of that little town and doing/seeing the same thing
> everyday. Bowkers could have killed himself because he was angry at everyone
> who didn't appreciate him, as a soldier and/or an individual. It is a story
> that can be looked at from many angles: inside and out, deeply or shallow.
>
> that). There is a plentitude of causes for his suicide. It could be
> something we have no clue about--something totally off the wall. Maybe he
> was tired of losing basketball games at the "Y;" he could have gone mad; he
> was sick and tired of that little town and doing/seeing the same thing
> everyday. Bowkers could have killed himself because he was angry at everyone
> who didn't appreciate him, as a soldier and/or an individual. It is a story
> that can be looked at from many angles: inside and out, deeply or shallow.
>
John
Feb 22, 2011, 11:14:55 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
I feel that Carla and Nojai both make great points on the reason why
Norman Bowker hanged himself in the locker room. In the chapter,
O'Brien clearly explains Bowker had no true meaning in life after his
return from Vietnam "He had worked briefly at a automotive parts
salesman, a janitor, a car wash attendant, and a short-order cook at
the local A&W fast-food franchise. None of these jobs, he said, lasted
more than ten weeks." (O'Brien 155). Bowker has lost all interest in
the normal life of any American. He cannot sustain a job or raise and
support a family. His time in Vietnam had taken away all aspect of a
normal life and had left him scarred with nothing to remember except
recreation, as they had time in the army. Bowker has also lacks the
ability to communicate about his problems with society, his fears and
his personal life, since he doesn't want to burden another person with
his difficulties as well as their own. The army has erased these
aspects of life with their basic training and the Vietnam war and
Bowker never tried to rebuild them in order to survive in the civilian
society.
Norman Bowker hanged himself in the locker room. In the chapter,
O'Brien clearly explains Bowker had no true meaning in life after his
return from Vietnam "He had worked briefly at a automotive parts
salesman, a janitor, a car wash attendant, and a short-order cook at
the local A&W fast-food franchise. None of these jobs, he said, lasted
more than ten weeks." (O'Brien 155). Bowker has lost all interest in
the normal life of any American. He cannot sustain a job or raise and
support a family. His time in Vietnam had taken away all aspect of a
normal life and had left him scarred with nothing to remember except
recreation, as they had time in the army. Bowker has also lacks the
ability to communicate about his problems with society, his fears and
his personal life, since he doesn't want to burden another person with
his difficulties as well as their own. The army has erased these
aspects of life with their basic training and the Vietnam war and
Bowker never tried to rebuild them in order to survive in the civilian
society.
John
Feb 22, 2011, 11:15:36 PM2/22/11
to TTTC Discussion (Gold) spring 2011
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