Reading #3, Question #2

[Lindsey]

When O'Brien tells the story of Kat Riley torturing the baby buffalo
after his best friend's death and the other soldiers just stand around
and watch, does it prove the fact that war makes a person desensitized
or did he do it just out of anger from the event that happened only
moments before?

[Andre]

This scene in the book where he tortures the baby buffalo is the most
emotion filled section I've read so far. I dont believe the war has
desensitized Kat Riley at all. The anger and hatred towards the VC,
for killing his bestfriend causes him to do such a horrific thing.
Normally Riley is a fun easy going guy but the moment his friend dies
Riley cannot control himself and he takes it out on the baby buffalo.
As I said earlier it's the most emotion filled scene so far and by far
the most gruesome. "Amazing, My whole life, I never seen anything like
it" (O'Brien 80). These words of Dave Jensen give a brief description
of the incident where Riley lost it. Jensen has never seen anything
like it in his life and that's saying a whole lot because he has been
fighting in Vuetnam for write some time. Some soldiers are
desensitized by war while others show never before seen emotions in
large part to traumatic experiences; in a Riley's case it is the death
of his closest friend.

[Maeha Karlow]

I agree with you Andre. The anger Rat Kiley releases by shooting the
baby buffalo is caused by the death of Curt Lemon. This is not to say
though that he isn't desenitized by the war. Keep in mind that people
lose close friends here in the U.S. all the time. Now I pose the
question; "do they go out shooting body parts off of animals?" The
answer to this is no. In most cases, a person who has lost a loved one
would not torture another being. Now, I understand if there is a case
as this; usually if one watches a close friend or family member die,
they will cope with the anger in a less violent way. Because Kiley has
just lost his friend Lemon, nobody feels "a great deal of pity for the
baby water buffalo" (O'Brien, 79). See, if they were all at home, they
would be astonished at the cruel acts of Kiley, but they aren't; they
are at war-in Vietnam. Death surrounds them; it consumes them. The war
desensitizes them, making them think one dead buffalo means nothing.
Could you imagine being in the place of these men, but being here, at
home, in America, with no war? I think I have proved my point.

[Megan]

I agree with both Andre and Maeha; the violence shown by Rat Kiley
towards the baby buffalo is not because he is desensitized from the
war. "Curt Lemon was dead. Rat Kiley had lost his best friend in the
world" (O'Brien 79). The emotions Kiley feels consume him. He just
lost his best friend; he is hurt and angered by this traumatic
experience. When he stumbles across the baby buffalo, he tortues it by
shooting it. "It wasn't to kill; it was to hurt" (O'Brien 79). All the
men stand around to witness what Kiley was doing; no one tried to stop
him, they "had witnessed something essential, something brand-new and
profound" (O'Brien 79). Kiley didn't know how to cope with all the
hurt he was feeling, so he took it out on the baby VC water buffalo.
Kiley hates the VC, even more for killing his best friend. He can't
bring his best friend back, and the enemies are so hard to find that
the only revenge he can take at that moment is killing the VC buffalo.
He doesn't kill it because he's desensitized; he kills it because he
doesn't know how else to cope.

On Jan 28, 9:35 am, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:

> > > moments before?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Maeha Karlow]

Megan, I would like to ask a question that might spark an
understanding of why I believe he is unsensitized and/or lacks a
conscience. Let's say your best friend got in a car accident with her
neighbor, was not at fault, and died. Would you then torture the
neighbors cat or dog? I would hope not.

Now I know that it is hard to put yourself in other peoples shoes,
but just try. I really do think someone would not commit a crime like
this unless they lost their morals, as soldiers often did in Vietnam.

[Andre]

That is a great point Maeha, I completely agree and now that I
think of it I believe the death of Kurt Lemon was Riley's "breaking
point." After Lemon's death Riley desensitized.

On Jan 28, 9:35 am, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:

[Megan]

I like the way Andre put it as Rat Kiley's "breaking point." That
makes a lot more sense to me.

[carla downs]

I think Rat Kiley is angry about losing his friend and after his loss
he becomes desensitized. Lemon seemed to be making the best of his
time in Vietnam "playing catch with Rat Kiley, laughing, and then he
was dead" (O'Brien 78). After Lemon died, Kiley snaps "He shot
randomly, almost casually, quick little spurts in the belly and
butt"(O'Brien 79). If someone can just casually shoot an innocent
animal at point blank range multiple times and not feel anything, then
they have become desensitized. He becomes angry at everyone and
everything. I think if he wasn't in a war atmosphere he wouldn't have
done what he did, because if he would have lost his friend in America
out on the street, he wouldn't have killed the next person he saw.
"Well, that's Nam," he said. "Garden of Evil. Over here, man, every
sin's real fresh and original." This phrase said by Mitchell Sanders
implies that war can make a man do something evil, but since the men
are so young or fresh they have to carry around that burden for the
rest of their life. Kiley didn't think of killing the buffalo as a
desensitizing act, he just thought of it as a way to let off steam for
losing his friend.

[carla downs]

To add to my last post I agree mostly with Maeha. I always seem to
remember something else right after I post, sorry.

[Shelly]

I agree with Andre that Rat hasn't become desensitized. Throughout the
scene in the novel where he is killing the buffalo, there are little
things that he does that show that he is still feeling his anger, and
he knows what he's doing, and he is killing it out of anger. During
the killing, it is obvious that the motive wasn't to actually kill the
buffalo. "It wasn't to kill; it was to hurt" (O'Brien 75). Rat Kiley
goes from feeling all of this anger from losing a fellow soldier, to
finally letting that all go and feeling the sadness and despair from
losing his best friend. "Rat Kiley was crying, He tried to say
something, but then cradled his rifle and went off by
himself" (O'Brien 76).

I also agree with Megan that Kiley kills the buffalo because he
doesn't know how to deal with his loss. Instead of just going on with
his duties, he has to find some sort of out for his emotions, or else
he will harbor them and it will affect his performance.

[Katelin]

I have to agree with Andre on this one. This scene is so dramatic and
harsh and just shows what war can do to people. Rat Kiley lost his
best friend and it angered him dearly to the point where he feels the
need to make something suffer. I believe the war has not desensitized
Rat Kiley at all. The pain of losing a dear friend can be unbearable
and extremely hard to overcome, "Rat Kiley had lost his best friend in
the world" (O'Brien 79) and he took out his pain on the baby buffalo
by shooting it repeatedly all along it's body, "It wasn't to kill; it
was to hurt" (O'Brien 78). I believe as he hurt the baby buffalo, he
wanted that buffalo to be the VC that had murdered his best friend.
Kiley just lost control of himself due to the traumatic experience he
had just went through; and he lets it all out by writing a deep letter
to the sister of the brave soldier that lost his life.

On Jan 26, 8:05 pm, Lindsey <lindseyjone...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Robin B.]

I am going to stand neutral on this issue. I believe that war can
desensitize a person to death to a point. If you took a soldier and a
regular person that has not been in a war and compared their reactions
to one's death, the soldier would get over it more quickly than the
regular person. There is no doubt that the soldiers grieve for their
lost loved ones, but they are trained to deal with death to a point
where they don't neccesarily show emotion. The soldier can definitely
be hurting on the inside, but they are supposed to "take it like a
man." As O'Brien describes the soldiers watching Kat Riley torturing
the baby buffalo shows that soldiers can be desensitized to death.
They didn't show emotion or give a great reaction like Kiley. Rat
Kiley was the soldier who wasn't desensitized because he was killing
the buffalo to relieve his own pain of losing his best friend. "Rat
Kiley was crying. He tried to say something, but then cradled his
rifle and went off by himself" (O'Brien, 79).The other soldiers on the
other hand, I believe show desensitization to death.

[Casey]

I agree with you all. Rat Kiley is using the baby buffalo as a way to
get revenge on the Vietcong. They killed his best friend and they have
to pay in some way. I agree with Andre's statement about it being
Kiley's breaking point. He is somewhat of a happy go lucky person and
then, his heart is hardened by the loss of his friend. He has also
become desensitized by the war. Mitchell Sanders says,'" Well that's

Nam,' he said. 'Garden of Evil. Over here, man, every sin's real fresh

and original"' (O'Brien 80). It seems Vietnam is a place for men to
commit acts they have never done before. Like Maeha said, in the U.S.,
if your friend was killed by accident you wouldn't kill the person who
did it. In Vietnam these men become different people and they commit
sins that are almost unreal and tremendous. Kiley's anger and grief
are magnified due to the situation of the war and he no longer has a
filter. He is desensitized forever.

[Maeha Karlow]

Excuse the interruption; I would like to edit "(O'Brien, 79)" to
"(O'Brien 79)." I just took out the comma.

On Jan 28, 9:35 am, Maeha Karlow <karlo...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:

[Natese]

During the time Americans occupied Vietnam, they were surrounded by
hatred, fear and anger. The only way the soldiers seemed to gain
comfort was through their friends and superstitions they acquired at
home in the United States. Unfortunately, some of the soldier's new
friends would not survive because they where positioned in a war-zone
wired with booby traps, mines, and snipers hidden within the lush
mountains. Rat Kiley found comfort in a friend of his, Curt Lemon.
Shortly after they played a game, filled with laughter, to occupy
time. Kiley's best friend was killed. He didn't want to break down and
cry so he took it out on the baby buffalo. Although I agree with Andre
and his points to prove his argument, I believe Rat was get taking his
anger out on the buffalo because of the loss of his friend. "Curt
Lemon was dead. Rat Kiley had lost his best friend in the
world"(O'Brien 79). Even though the war may have desensitized the
soldiers, this example was simply done because the loss of his friend
was unbearable.

On Jan 26, 8:05 pm, Lindsey <lindseyjone...@gmail.com>

[Nicole]

I feel that it makes a solider do both. War is not the game we all
played when we were kids. It's real and people are dying all around
you. You have to just get use to it because it will happen all the
time. In a normal situation, like when a family friend or member dies,
we cry, but in war after the first few deaths, soldiers become immune
to it. Death is a horrible thing, but if you are around it long
enough, it becomes nothing to you. It is the same way with killing,
you kill and kill and kill and each time you do it gets a little bit
easier to do it. Although, Kiley does still have that hint of anger
welling inside of him. He is mad probably for being in the stupid war
and for not being able to prevent his best friend's death, but there
was nothing he could really do about it.