Reading #4, Question #1

[carla downs]

Is Tim O'Brien a coward for going to war against his own morals or is
he brave for fighting for his country?

[Shelly]

That's an interesting question, Carla. In my opinion, O'Brien is a
coward for going to war against his own morals because giving in was
so much easier than fighting against it and standing up for his
personal morals. No matter how you really look at it, O'Brien would
have been a coward. He was against the war and yet he went anyway, and
even though he did fight for his country, that doesn't make him brave
because he didn't even want to be there. He knows that he is a coward
for going to the war. "I survived, but it's not a happy ending. I was
a coward. I went to the war. (O'Brien 58).

[carla downs]

Shelly, are you saying that risking his life for his country isn't
brave? I'm sure most men didn't want to be there and I don't think
that dosen't make them brave.

[Andre]

I disagree with Shelly. Sure O'Brien shows acts of cowardice when he
flees to Canada but who wouldn't be scared, " I remember opening up
the letter, scanning the first few lines, feeling the blood go thick
behind my eyes -- I was no soldier" (41). I'm sure thousands of other
men shared O'Brien's fear when they opened their draft letters and I
bet more than half of them didn't want to go to Vietnam just like
O'Brien. Being afraid and objective to fighting in a war and quite
possibly dying isn't something to be labeled as cowardly. People are
naturally afraid, or apprehensive at least, of the unknown and to
O'Brien Vietnam was an unknown; he never in his life imagined being a
soldier. So I say he is brave for going and fighting in the war when
he was so close to freedom, in Canada, he turned it down to do his
duties.

[Rolph Recto]

Shelly and Andre: I have to agree with both of you because I think both of your viewpoints are valid. O'Brien is a coward in a sense that he did not have enough moral fortitude to resist the draft; however, his reluctance to escape to Canada was not limited just for this reason. He also thought that running away up north would be tantamount to abandoning his loved ones and the only life that he ever knew. The scene where he and Elroy are fishing is very telling: "And what was so sad, I realized, was that Canada had become a pitiful fantasy...I would not swim away from my hometown and my country and my life. I would not be brave" (O'Brien 55).  He then proceeds to have vivid hallucinations of his past, present and future. I don't think O'Brien actually had clairvoyant visions of his life; I think he is merely blending fiction with his memory. Still, they serve their purpose well: with the visions, he graphically conveys the weight of everything that he would leave behind had he escaped to Canada. He did not want to fight in an immoral war, but he does because it was the "patriotic" thing to do; he was timid and did not want to kill, yet he killed because he had been taught that the communist VietCong were the enemies of American democracy. To O'Brien, bravery is following what one knows is right; in that sense, he feels like a coward for acquiescing to the duty (which he saw as wrong) that everyone else gave him to carry. It was easier for O'Brien to fight an enemy whom he does not care for than to fight the ones close to him.

On the other hand, as Carla pointed out, O'Brien accepted - however grudgingly - the enormous responsibility of going to Vietnam. Surely one who willingly travels to a foreign country, away from everything and everyone he has known, is not a coward; surely one who willingly faces death is not a coward. What he lacked in moral fortitude made it up for physical fortitude; people who have not been to war only have a faint inkling of its horror. O'Brien briefly mentioned this dichotomy between moral cowardice and physical bravery previously in the chapter "The Things They Carried": "They carried the common secret of cowardice barely restrained...They carried the soldier's greatest fear, which was the fear of blushing. Men killed, and died, because they were embarrassed not to" (20). In essence, they were trying to preserve their honor in a war that is anything but honorable.

O'Brien and the other soldiers might have felt cowardly for fighting a war they did not believe in, but everyone else has no right to indict them as such - it would not be right, for it was not them that chose to fight in Vietnam. It was not them who chose to carry the weight of war, yet they carried it valiantly anyway.

--
Rolph Recto 

Louisa County High School

"And when your sorrow is comforted (time soothes all sorrows) you will be content that you have known me. You will always be my friend. You will want to laugh with me. And you will sometimes open your window, so, for that pleasure... and your friends will be properly astonished to see you laughing as you look up at the sky! Then you will say to them, 'Yes, the stars always make me laugh!' And they will think you are crazy. It will be a very shabby trick that I shall have played on you..."

[Carla Downs]

Rolph you said he made up for his lack of moral strength by physical strength, but which one is more important when fighting a war?  If a soldier lacks too many morals than he could do things he ends up regreting or he might not have that drive to fight.

[Kevin]

I have to agree with Shelly, I feel that O'Brien didn't try as hard as
he really could have in order to avoid going to war. By running north
to Canada he is only escaping the current problem, and isn't choosing
to express his beliefs and why he feels he shouldn't go to war. Though
his morals are worth expressing in opposition to the war, O'Brien
doesn't feel as though anybody will listen. He feels that those who
want the war to proceed should be the people being drafted, not him.
"There should be a law, I thought. If you support a war, if you think
it's worth the price, that's fine, but you have to put your own
precious fluids on the line. You have to head for the front and hook
up with an infantry unit and spill the blood," (O'Brien 42). Though
these thoughts may have been what he would have liked to see happen,
it proved to no avail.

On Feb 4, 11:29 am, carla downs <carladown...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Robin B.]

I have to say I agree with Andre. O'Brien is a coward in some ways but
in others he is brave. Any person to decide to go to war is brave. One
is risking everything; their life, their family, their memories,
everything they know. War is definitely not comforting. A soldier is
on the edge 24/7. If someone could leave all they know behind to fight
for something, they deserve a little credit. O'Brien is a scardy cat
also but who wouldn't be when they are in a life and death situation.
There is a possible that since he didn't believe in going, he wouldn't
fight as heartedly as a more dedicated soldier. I don't want to say he
could be the first to die but I believe he had a bigger chance to be
killed. He explains that it is against his morals and he questions why
he should go, but what matters the most is his ultimate decision to
fight for his country. I believe the old man, Elroy, had a big effect
on O'Brien's choice. He appeared to be a God-like figure to him. "He
was a witness, like God, or like the gods, who look on in absolute
silence as we live our lives, as we make our choices or fail to make
them" (O'Brien, 60). With Elroy by his side in the little fishing boat
to guide him, he made his choice whether or not he absolutely believed
in himself.

> > that dosen't make them brave.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Casey]

Carla you have made some great points and this question has seemed to
cause a lot of controversy. I agree with Andre and Robin that O'Brien
wasn't a coward for going to war, especially since he didn't believe
in what the war was about. However, I feel that he should have
followed his own beliefs even if that mean't abandoning his old life
and starting a new one. He didn't quite understand the war and
believed, "Certain blood was being shed for uncertain reasons (O'Brien
40). If he was willing to flee almost to Canada, his resistance to the
war is obviously very great. I wouldn't call him a coward for going
against what he believed in, but I would say that he gave into peer
pressure. He let the hype and what was expected of him get in the way
of how he felt. He was put into a tough situation, but if he didn't
understand what he was fighting then fighting at all was immoral. Its
almost like he forgot who he was under the stress of the crowd of
expectations and just blindly followed along.

[Lindsey]

I don't think O'Brian is a coward at all for not going through with
his plan to escape to Canada to avoid the war. Of course, as Andre
said, everyone would be a little scared receiving a basic death
sentence in the mail. I think O'Brian is more of a hero for actually
going through with the war. He overcame his inner child that was
trying to run away from reality and what scared him the most. He
stood up to himself and knew going to Vietnam was what he had to do.
He tried to find others to blame for his draft letter but deep inside
he knew that, "The problem, though, was that a draft board did not let
you choose your war " (O'Brian 45). He knew that there was no way he
could fully avoid this war and decided to suck it up and be a man
about what he was called to do. Running away from his problems would
have made him much more a coward than the decision he chose but he
probably would have been a lot better off running away in the first
place.

On Feb 6, 11:41 am, "Robin B." <brizendin...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us>
wrote:

[Zoe Kopin]

I agree with Andre. I believe that O'Brien was brave for going
to war, even though it was against his beliefs. As Andre said, the
majority of soldiers that got drafted probably did not want to go to
war, but it was their duty as citizens. When O'Brien first read his
draft letter, he thought "A million things all at once-I was too good
for this war" (O'Brien 41). O'Brien believed that the war was wrong
and that he should not be a part of it, and made the decision to flee
to Canada. Had he gone through with his plan, he would have been a
coward for fleeing his duties as a United States citizen. Other men
whom were drafted also probably had morals and did not agree with all
aspects of the war. Although personal morals are important, loyalty
to one's country is also important. This is why I believe O'Brien was
extremely brave for going to war. Although it was not in his personal
interest, he realized that he had an obligation to be a part of the
war.

[Carla Downs]

Do you think personal morals are more important than loyalty to one's country or is it the other way around?

On Feb 6, 2011 5:45 PM, "Zoe Kopin" <zoexka...@aim.com> wrote:

    I agree with Andre.  I believe that O'Brien was brave for going
to war, even though it was against his beliefs.  As Andre said, the
majority of soldiers that got drafted probably did not want to go to
war, but it was their duty as citizens.  When O'Brien first read his
draft letter, he thought "A million things all at once-I was too good
for this war" (O'Brien 41).  O'Brien believed that the war was wrong
and that he should not be a part of it, and made the decision to flee
to Canada.  Had he gone through with his plan, he would have been a
coward for fleeing his duties as a United States citizen.  Other men
whom were drafted also probably had morals and did not agree with all
aspects of the war.  Although personal morals are important, loyalty
to one's country is also important.  This is why I believe O'Brien was
extremely brave for going to war.  Although it was not in his personal
interest, he realized that he had an obligation to be a part of the
war.

On Feb 6, 4:11 pm, Casey <jin9le6ells2...@aol.com> wrote: > Carla you have made some great points a...

[Madison Stanley]

I agree with Andre, Robin, Casey, Lindsey and Zoe that O'Brien is
most definitely not a coward for going to war. War is not for the
cowardly. War is a world of terror and destruction, where the weak do
not last and the strong fight to prosper. O'Brien was not a coward the
second he faced his fears and made a decision. No matter which way he
chose to go (to Canada or to war), he was brave because he had faced
his nightmare and dealt with it.
Since O'Brien had chosen to go to war, he was a hero because he
fought for his country and met his fear of death and war. If he had
chosen to go to Canada, he would have been a hero for sticking to his
personal views against war, and not becoming involved in a war he did
not support. O'Brien faced a life-changing decision that many people
were lucky enough not to have to face, and because he was able to make
a decision, to evaluate his life and to decide which he should or
shouldn't do, that made him a hero. It is unfair for those of us
reading the book to call a man who was torn between fighting for our
country and supporting his own views of the war a coward at all.
Either way he was brave to face his problem and his life.
When it was time for O'Brien to make his decision, he is so torn
because of the reasons for both situations. He could not make up his
mind because he did not know which one is braver. The fact that he
could not choose, shows just how brave each one was- just how much
courage each one required. When he saw all of the faces swirling in
the river as he confronted his inevitable choice, he imagined them
telling him which choice is braver. "A million of ferocious citizens
waving flags of all shapes and colors--people in hard hats, people in
headbands--they were all whooping and chanting and urging me toward
one side or the other. I saw faces from my distant past and distant
future" (O'Brien. 58, 59). The choice was not obvious to O"Brien.
There was no concrete right and wrong, cowardly and brave, which made
his decision so much more severe and upsetting. He had to face an
overall evil problem with courage and pick the lesser of two evils.
His situations were equal and required just as much honor and courage
as the other.

[John]

I would have to agree with Andre in saying that O'Brien is not a
coward and should be upheld for his bravery in facing his fears of war
and fighting for his country. His thoughts, when he received the
draft letter, showed the repulse that he had to become a soldier; "I
was no soldier. I hated boy scouts. I hated camping out. I hated dirt
and tents and mosquitoes. The sight of blood made me queasy, and I
couldn't tolerate authority, I didn't know a rifle from a
slingshot." (O'Brien 41-42). Various soldiers during the draft for
the Vietnam war felt the same way, some burned their draft notices and
others ran to Canada. The thought of going and adventuring into a
virtually unknown country struck fear into multiple draftees, as most
had not left the country in their lifetime. O'Brien just needed time
to sort out his life and decide whether it would benefit him to run to
Canada, the time he spent at the Tip Top Lodge calmed his emotions and
collected his thoughts. These actions should not label him as a
coward but as a organized man who will do anything to sort out his
life.

[Natese]

I believe O'Brien would have been a coward if he would have chose not
to serve his country in Vietnam. Although he admits to knowing very
little about the war, there is no reason why he couldn't research it
or ask around for farther information. In Tim's mind he was "too good
for this war" and didn't feel like he should take part in the war
(O'Brien 41). Shelly made a good point and I love the quote she used.
He even states that he was a coward for going to the war but fleeing
to Canada would have been even worse.

[Emily Barnes]

This is a very confusing question, but I think that it was more than
just being afraid. O'Brian went to war because he was afraid not to,
yes, but also because he was embarassed. "I would go to war...because
I was embarassed not to." O'Brian was embarassed of being seen as a
coward, so in a way he became one.

[Nicole]

Tim O'Brien was not a coward for going against his morals. He was in
fact a very brave person for decided to go to war. Many young men
would've just fled and hid like scared children, but he didn't. To me
personally, I believe that all soldiers are extremely brave for going
out into the unknown and risking their lives for their country. They
are all heroes of war even if at time they get frightened to death.
O'Brien was stuck between the two thoughts and he went with honoring
his country. Wouldn't you? Sometimes, men and women who don't go fight
are referred to as a coward, so he would've been one regardless if he
went against his morals or stayed behind and ran. His father may have
not wanted him to go, but already knew, "when I told him I'd be
leaving, the old man nodded as if he already knew." (O'Brien, 58). It
was his decision and he was going to go through with it.

On Jan 30, 1:02 pm, carla downs <carladown...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ben]

I agree with Andre, John, Robin, Madison, Casey, Lindsey and Zoe that
O’Brien is not a coward for going to war. Putting your life on the
line fighting for your country is one of the bravest things a person
can do. Even though O’Brien is afraid that he will be shamed for
dodging the draft he also owns up to the risk that he could die and
end his potential in life. “I was too good for this war” (O’Brien
41). O’Brien clearly feels that his death would be a greater waste in
war than the average person’s. However, he understands that his
country needs him to fight and so he does go to war.