Reading #8, Question #2

[Conley]

When Tim O'Brien was shot the second time in the butt, Bobby Jorgenson
took "almost ten minutes to work up the nerve to crawl over to
[him]" (O'Brien 190). He almost dies from shock and later on the wound
was so bad "It was borderline gangrene" (190). Do you think getting
revenge on the young, inexperienced medic was right or justified by
O'Brien's near death experience? If not, what should he have done?

[Emily Barnes]

I can understand why O'Brien was angry, I would be to if I was dying
and my only hope to live is a bumbling, green medic, and I can also
understand why he wasn't able to let that anger go. Sometimes, when
you have gone through the horrors of war, it's hard to let things like
that "gut hate, the kind of hate that stays with you even in your
dreams" (O'Brien 182). What made it worse was that he had a wound to
remind him of what had happened, something to remind him that he could
have died. However, I don't think that such an elaborate plan was
necessary, because Jorgenson was young and inexperienced. In a way,
I'm of two minds over this question. On the one side, the mean,
vengeful side I guess, I applaud O'Brien's ingenuity and use of
materials. On the other side, the nice, moral side, I think that he
didn't need to be so extravagant. A simple prank may have worked
better, because Jorgenson was new and was going through the shock of
battle.I guess the answer to this question is decided by your own
moral standards; whether you're the type to get revenge or just let it
go with something mild or nothing at all.

[Robin B.]

Jacob, this is an awesome question. It might even be my favorite so
far! If I was in the same situation as O' Brien, I would probably act
the same way. I know that getting revenge isn't the proper way of
handling the situation, but when it comes to life or death, the
situation becomes more extreme. If I was O' Brien, I would give
Jorgenson a little leadway taking into consideration his inexperience.
O'Brien should have been mad at the board who assigned him to be a
medic if he was not in any type of shape to be able to handle the
stress of combat. War takes a toll on everyone, it was taking effect
on Rat Kiley too, but when Bobby Jorgenson came for the first time,
the fear was even worst. The soldiers didn't accept Jorgenson as they
accepted Kiley because they weren't used to him yet. "Jorgenson was no
Rat Kiley. He was green and incompetentand scared" (O'Brien, 190). He
didn't have a chance to get mentally ready for the war and once it
came it threw him into a frenzy. It may have been different if he had
more experience and more time to prepare. The situation could have
also been worst, O'Brien could have died. That is just the plain
reality of it.

> > O'Brien's near death experience? If not, what should he have done?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Nicole]

I feel that because Bobby was a new medic and this was probably the
first time he had been in a fire zone, he was scared. He was not able
to move and couldn't think because he was so upset and was not able to
cope with what was going on around him. O'Brien just gets angry
because he was used to have a medic who was experianced. Therefore he
wanted revenge, but it was not necessary for him to want revenage. It
was unjust and just completely unintelligent.

[Maeha Karlow]

This question is brilliant, Jacob. I like how I have to really think of an answer. The other respondents did an amazing job answering. I like what Emily said about going with "something mild." I think that O'Brien has every right to be mad at Bobby Jorgenson; I also think his revenge is totally justified. Jorgenson fails miserably at being a medic. A medic can not freeze up on the job. It is his duty to attend the wounded. O'Brien could die from shock, and the inexperienced medic, Jorgenson, doesn't even treat him for it. It is Jorgenson's fault O'Brien goes through such a traumatic experience. It is for this reason that O'Brien deserves to get revenge. Though, I think he should deal with the situation  differently--in a more mature manner perhaps. He wants "an experience from which [he] can draw some... pride," not from which he is "embarrassed; humiliation shouldn't be a part of it" (O'Brien 191). O'Brien therefore has the right to humiliate Jorgenson with a prank. Also, it is Azar's fualt the prank is so severe. O'Brien pleads to Azar to stop tormenting Jorgenson, but he is too carried away with his zeal.

On Feb 19, 2011 9:45 AM, "Robin B." <brizen...@gtest.lcps.k12.va.us> wrote:
Jacob, this is an awesome question. It might even be my favorite so
far! If I was in the same situation as O' Brien, I would probably act
the same way. I know that getting revenge isn't the proper way of
handling the situation, but when it comes to life or death, the
situation becomes more extreme. If I was O' Brien, I would give
Jorgenson a little leadway taking into consideration his inexperience.
O'Brien should have been mad at the board who assigned him to be a
medic if he was not in any type of shape to be able to handle the
stress of combat. War takes a toll on everyone, it was taking effect
on Rat Kiley too, but when Bobby Jorgenson came for the first time,
the fear was even worst. The soldiers didn't accept Jorgenson as they
accepted Kiley because they weren't used to him yet. "Jorgenson was no
Rat Kiley. He was green and incompetentand scared" (O'Brien, 190). He
didn't have a chance to get mentally ready for the war and once it
came it threw him into a frenzy. It may have been different if he had
more experience and more time to prepare. The situation could have
also been worst, O'Brien could have died. That is just the plain
reality of it.

On Feb 17, 7:37 pm, Emily Barnes <emilyrobinbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can understand why O'Brien...

[Rolph Recto]

While I can understand your position, Maeha, I will have to disagree: I don't think, under any circumstances, that people have a "right" for revenge. As the platitude goes, two wrongs do not make a right. Personally, I think the best way to "get back" at somebody is to forgive them, for then you have transcended their wrongdoing by being honorable.

However, while I don't think that O'Brien should have sought revenge against Jorgenson, I think it was necessary for him to do so. What one has to remember is that O'Brien is probably as young and inexperienced as Jorgenson - maybe not combat-wise, but his immaturity manifests itself in other ways. For example, after Jorgenson apologizes to him, after his hate for him dissolved, he still felt the thirst for revenge: "Something had gone wrong...I'd turned mean inside...For all my education, all my fine liberal values, I now felt a deep coldness inside me, something dark and beyond reason...I wanted to hurt Bobby Jorgenson the way he'd hurt me...Granted I didn't hate him anymore, and I'd lost some of the outrage and passion, but the need for revenge kept eating at me" (O'Brien 200). O'Brien feels that he has changed by having an inexplicable desire for revenge. But after he pleaded for Azar - who is having fun tormenting Jorgenson - to stop the revenge plan midway through, it is evident that he only felt changed because he has never felt the urge for revenge before, and that in reality he isn't "hollow and dangerous" as he feels he is (207). Hence, once he has tasted revenge - its bitterness - he doesn't want to partake of it anymore; he even sets straight with Jorgenson and the two call it even. This is why I think that O'Brien's plan of revenge against Jorgenson is necessary - to absolve himself of the "coldness" inside him, he had to act upon it.

--
Rolph Recto 

Louisa County High School

"And when your sorrow is comforted (time soothes all sorrows) you will be content that you have known me. You will always be my friend. You will want to laugh with me. And you will sometimes open your window, so, for that pleasure... and your friends will be properly astonished to see you laughing as you look up at the sky! Then you will say to them, 'Yes, the stars always make me laugh!' And they will think you are crazy. It will be a very shabby trick that I shall have played on you..."

[carla downs]

You all have made compelling arguments and I somewhat agree with
Maeha. I feel like O'Brien's revenge was justified, but then again if
this wasn't a war scenario then revenge would be uncalled for. I
mean, if you got into a car accident and the medics showed up, saw you
seriously wounded and froze up, how would you get revenge on them?
You wouldn't, sure you could take them to court, but that wouldn't
give them a taste of what you had to go through. I think O'Brien's
case is just boys being boys, "No pain," O'Brien said. "Basic
psychology, that's all. Mess with his head a little" (O'Brien 201).
O'Brien just wanted to play around with him. Sure, something worse
could have happened, but Jorgenson knew it was O'Brien, "That was a
nice touch," he said. "It almost had me-" (O'Brien 217). I think the
situation started out as revenge, but ended as a light hearted joke
with the men becoming friends in the end.

[Megan]

Rolph, I also thought of the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"
when I read Jacob's question. No one has the "right" to hurt or scare
someone else for revenge. No one holds that power to make things
"right" or "even". However, in this situation, I think the boundaries
for revenge are much harder to cross. As a medic, Jorgenson should
have been prepared to face all the gores and frightening sites of war.
It should not have taken "the son of a bitch almost ten minutes to
work up the nerve to crawl over to" O'Brien; Jorgenson should have
tended to O'Brien quickly and properly fixed him up (O'Brien190).
O'Brien wouldn't have gone through such a traumatic experience if
Jorgenson hadn't screwed up. Therefore, O'Brien did have the "right"
to be angry and upset with Jorgenson, but his prank did go too far.
Instead of taking revenge, O'Brien should have talked to Jorgenson and
made him feel how he felt when he was shot, but with words and not
actions. After Jorgenson apologized, O'Brien should have accepted it
sincerely. If O'Brien were the brand new medic, how does he know he
wouldn't have frozen on the spot too?

[Madison Stanley]

I agree with Maeha that the revenge was justified, however unlike
the previous posters, I do not believe it was simply because Jorgenson
was a bad medic or due to the fact that he obviously deserved it. It
was justified because of O'Brien; it was justified because O'Brien
needed closure from his traumatic experience with shock due to
Jorgenson's lack of experience. Who are we to judge O'Brien and say
that we would have done the same or differently? All we know is that
he was unable to forgive Jorgenson or to let the issue go, and he
needed revenge to move on, making his actions justified.
Before O'Brien gets revenge on Jorgenson, he is unable to shake the
man's hand and call the truce Jorgenson asks for. After scaring the
medic, and connecting with him through the fear of death, O'Brien is
finally able to call a truce and let the topic go. "We shook
hands..."We're even now?" He asked. "Pretty much." Again I felt that
human closeness. Almost war buddies. We nearly shook hands again but
then decided against it" (O'Brien 217). O'Brien "had to do what he had
to do." He was justified because for whatever reason, he felt unable
to forgive Jorgenson unless he got revenge, so he got it and moved on.

[Ben]

That is an excellent question Jacob; I do not think Tim O’Brian’s
revenge was justified because of the inexperience of the medic; a man
shouldn’t be crucified because he did not have time to get a handle on
his job. Everyone has to start somewhere and if the medic was nervous
under pressure that only makes him human. “But it made me hate Bobby
Jorgenson the way some guys hated the VC, gut hate, the kind of hate
that stays with you even in your dreams” (O’Brian). In this quotation
the reader gets a true since of O’Brian’s hatred for Jorgenson, which
plays out through the chapter. So I feel he is redirecting his damage
to his pride from being shot and it becoming infected splitting him
from his unit and his friends.

[Lindsey]

I'd have to agree with Megan and Rolph on this one. No one has the
right to seek revenge on someone for a pure accident. It was
Jorgenson's first day and like he said he "Got all frozen up, I
guess. The noise and shooting and everything- my first firefight- I
just couldn't handle it ... " (O'Brian 199). In my opinion, O'Brian
should have just manned up, and accepted Jorgenson's apology and
forgotten about it, not gotten revenge. O'Brian is a grown man and
should understand that everyone makes mistakes, including himself.
O'Brian felt the need to blame someone for his pain and he chose
Jorgenson instead of the real enemy, the Vietcong who were the ones
that shot him in the first place. Like Megan said, "how does he know

he wouldn't have frozen on the spot too?"

[Katelin]

I want to start off by saying, I'm sorry I was a day late with this
response, I had some technical difficulties. Great question Jacob and
you all have great responses. I believe getting revenge on the young,
inexperienced medic was justified by O'Brien's near death experience.
I could only imagine how scared O'Brien was and I can understand that
O'Brien was angered at the medic when he took "almost ten minutes to
work up the nerve to crawl over to [him]" (O'Brien 190). However, I do
not agree with getting revenge on the medic because who's to say that
they would not freeze up like he did? Maybe it was the medic's first
time seeing that happen to another guy or maybe it was just fear of
messing up. I believe that the soldiers did not like Jorgenson because
"he was green and incompetent and scared" and that played a major role
in his attempts to rescue someone (O'Brien 190). It could have been
much worse, O'Brien could have died, but he did not, so there's no
reason to seek revenge on someone, everyone makes mistakes.

On Feb 16, 8:01 pm, Conley <Yankeesd...@aol.com> wrote: