Handling of returns/cancelations (was: extourne/annulation d'un mouvement)

[Mathias Behrle]

* Raphael Hertzog: " Re: [tryton-fr] Re: extourne/annulation d'un
mouvement" (Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:37:06 +0100):

I am pulling this discussion of the french mailing list to tryton, because I
find it interesting enough for the wide public and I would suspect, that at
least in Europe we should have some common or at least similar procedures about
the handling of credit notes versus cancellation notes.

I have put the research together done by the german community at that
time (dating back to 2008) and posted it at

https://code.google.com/p/tryton/wiki/CreditNotevsCancelation

May be we can find together the most common denominator of this business case.

> Le mardi 24 mars 2015, Richard PALO a écrit :
> > > En effet, avec le Nouveau Plan comptable (1999), une obligation de
> > > traçabilité des modifications d'écritures comptables impose l'utilisation
> > > des contrepassations d'écritures (voir Mémento Comptable 2015 § 332.3 III
> > > "Traçabilité".
> > >
> > > Au delà des règles comptable, la traçabilité est imposée également par
> > > l'Administration fiscale qui risquerait de ne pas se satisfaire d'une
> > > comptabilité contenant des écritures négatives.
> >
> > Donc, il est impérative d'organiser un aménagement pour tenir
> > une comptabilité légale avec tryton en France.
>
> Moi je comprends tout cela bien différemment... « la traçabilité impose
> l'utilisation des contrepassations d'écritures » ca veut juste dire qu'on
> ne modifie pas l'écriture d'origine mais qu'on effectue la correction
> avec une ou plusieurs écritures supplémentaires.

Absolutely agreed about tracibility and immutability of posted moves. For german
installations we are disabling the button, that allows to change posted moves.

> Cette question de signe me semble tout à fait anecdotique. L'usage d'un
> signe négatif pour une contrepassation qui annule totalement la première
> écriture me semble légitime (pourvu que l'écriture soit documentée comme
> telle!).

As Cédric has pointed out in another mail, the result between annulating a
move with negative amounts to the same account (debit/credit) versus
positive amounts on the contra account is different. While one will not
increase the balance, the other will.

> Mais je ne suis pas comptable...

I am an accountant neither, so happy on further input.



--

Mathias Behrle
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[Cédric Krier]

On 26 Mar 16:39, Mathias Behrle wrote:
> As Cédric has pointed out in another mail, the result between annulating a
> move with negative amounts to the same account (debit/credit)

We call it "cancellation"

> versus
> positive amounts on the contra account is different. While one will not
> increase the balance, the other will.

I think we should call it "reversal"

--
Cédric Krier - B2CK SPRL
Email/Jabber: cedric...@b2ck.com
Tel: +32 472 54 46 59
Website: http://www.b2ck.com/

[Richard PALO]

It is unfortunate that no discussion has happened on this topic.
I'd like to see:

1. Cancelling, or rather *voiding* (to use the more generally accepted accounting term),
should only be 'by default' possible on non-posted moves.

Perhaps those who really believe they need it on posted move can
enable a separate module enabling this pernicious operation.

2. Permitting deletion of cancelled entries should probably be configurable (to avoid holes if one wishes),
but in any event should be logged if historisation is enabled.

3. Reversing should be added for posted moves (somewhat illogical for draft moves) with the
logic to be able to put the reversed move into the first day of the first non-closed period.
This would, for example, greatly simplify reversing end of year 'inventory' moves in the
opening of the new year.

4. It would be natural to add a 'cancel' (or 'void') state in addition to 'draft' and 'posted'.
Perhaps 'cancelling' is needed as well for the counter part move.
There may be a better way, but these are all somewhat self documenting.

This is immediately crucial in the French plan, but I remind here as it can be generalised
in a respectful manner.

I might add that is is non-sensical to reconcile draft entries and should therefore be avoided.

At least in France, the 'validation' date is the posted date, and as such the reconciliation date
needs to use this posted date.
It seems illogical to use any other date, excepting only for cancelled moves which, could use the
creation date of the cancelling move.

Cheers,
--

Richard PALO

[Richard PALO]

Le 26/03/2015 à 16:39, Mathias Behrle a écrit :

For info, https://bugs.tryton.org/issue5180 has been updated with an initial
patchset proposal supporting an 'allow_negative_moves' configuration parameter.

--

Richard PALO

[Richard PALO]

Le 08/04/2018 à 09:41, Richard PALO a écrit :
>
> For info, https://bugs.tryton.org/issue5180 has been updated with an initial
> patchset proposal supporting an 'allow_negative_moves' configuration parameter.
>

Perhaps this should be alternately named 'allow red storno moves' as that seems to be
a recogniseable term used for this, particularly in eastern europe where it is widely used.

try entering 'accounting red storno' in your favourite internet search engine.

It seems typically that western accounting packages need to have an option enabled to permit negative moves as I propose above and, if used, the negative moves are even marked up in red,
as the name suggests.

--

Richard PALO