A friend who is Mormon

[Echo]

From ESH:

Dear Echo,

Thank you sooooooo much for all of your postings to Alan. You are
both in my prayers RIGHT AT THIS VERY MOMENT. My husband attends the
law school at Regent University, a Christian university started by Pat
Robertson, and there are four families of Mormons living on the
campus. Truthfully, I think there is an underlying reason as to why
they are attending this university.

I write because I am deeply saddened. One of my dear friends who has
been raised a Mormon, married at the Temple in Salt Lake City, and
defends her "religion," is sharing her "gospel" with me. My
personality is one to listen and remain her friend even though some
people here have treated her and her family as an outcast. (I can
explain more on that later) I have only been a follower of Christ for
3 years. I was raised in a Catholic Church that never clearly shared
the gospel, or if they did I was SO BLINDED I do not remember hearing
it. When I left for college I heard the gospel for the first time,
but it took 2 1/2 years for me to fully surrender my life. I see a
lot of parallels between the doctrine in the Mormon and Catholic
Church and the "good works" teachings. I know the Gospel and the
Mormon ideas of the "scriptures" are VERY DIFFERENT, but I can sort of
relate to where my friend is coming from because of my Catholic
upbringing. (Understand, I am not saying all Catholics are not
Christian, that is not my point!!!)

I am writing to first say thank you for the passages in scripture you
have posted. They have encouraged me a lot! As a new believer and
one who never fully grasped the teachings that children learn in
Sunday School, I am now learning for myself. Jesus is absolutely
AMAZING AND the Old Testament is so BEAUTIFUL! How can I as a new
believer love on my Mormon friend when she comes at me with scripture
and rituals of their church? To me, I want to share with her in love
and truth; however, as a new believer I feel unequipped to share with
her. This website is perfect... and I intend on purchasing some of
the materials you have for sale to help witness to Mormons, but what
in your opinion would be the best thing to do? To let you know I
have...

1. Told her I do not believe her prophet, Joseph Smith.
2. Told her it confuses me that Jesus and God both appeared to Joseph
Smith and how could that be so.
2 (a) Asked her the question how could they both appear if Jesus
and God are one in the same?
2 (b) her reply was more that the Heavenly Father and Jesus are of
One Purpose not one substance... like we believe with the Trinity.
3. I've looked at 1 Cor 15:41 where she has said that passage relates
to her belief of 3 levels of heaven. (Is she stretching it to make it
what she wants?)
4. Told her that I believe no other prophets have come after Jesus
because of what JESUS did for us on the cross. HOWEVER, THE VERSE:
Hebrews 1:1-2 "In the PAST God spoke to our forefathers THROUGH THE
PROPHETS at many times and in various ways, BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS he
has spoken to us by his Son," you told Alan about is amazing and I
would love to share with her.


Lastly, in looking up 1 Cor 15, I read the entire chapter and it
speaks on baptism for the dead. Paul was asking the Corinthians why
they were still practicing this ritual. This is the chapter my friend
directed me to for the previous statement #3. My Mormon friend has
told me about her baptism for a particular woman in her family line
and even started tearing up when explaining how much it meant to her.
Can you look at 1 Cor 15:29 and let me know what you think. Thank
you.

I know this is a lot to ask, but you have truly inspired me to press
on. She has told me that she believes the Mormon Church is the one
true church. Truthfully, I knew she thought that but it really did
not offend me. I guess b/c Greater is He who is in me than in the
world. One good thing between my meetings with my Mormon friend is
that when she shares her beliefs it encourages me to dive deeper into
His Word, and only His Word.

Thank you for THIS WEBSITE, THIS BLOG, AND YOUR LOVE FOR THE LOST.
ESH

[Echo]

The Catholic Church doesn't preach the true gospel and that is why you
unfortunately never heard it there.
And I agree with you that it doesn't mean that all Catholic's are not
Christian. If they read and believe the gospel in the Bible, they are
saved.

I am touched by your love and concern for your Mormon friend! You are
a true friend indeed.

The first and most important thing you can do for your friend is to
pray for her and for yourself as a witness to her. Ask God to keep you
from falling into deception and to equip you as his witness. Pray that
God will open your friends eyes and heart to the truth.

To begin with, when your Mormon friend comes to you with Scripture and
rituals of her church, you could continue to listen and learn what she
believes. Keep in mind that when she explains something to you, it may
"sound Christian" but the LDS puts different meanings into the words.
Familiarize yourself with Mormon definitions by clicking here on our
website:

http://www.truthinlovetomormons.com/resources/downloads/mormonese_dictionary.pdf

and/or you can purchase the book: "speaking the truth in love to
Mormons" written by Pastor Cares and it is available from the "Truth
in love to Mormons" website. It is a great book to help you gain an
understanding of Mormonism and how it differs from Christianity. It
contains witnessing tips as well as a Mormonese dictionary. You are a
fairly new believer yourself so perhaps you would want to familiarize
yourself with Christian definitions as well. You can do that here:

http://www.wels.net/university/moodle/mod/glossary/view.php?id=3324


You have to remember that in all your witnessing attempts, it is
through the gospel that Mormons will come to believe. And so in all
your witnessing attempts, you will always be thinking how to bring
this discussion to the gospel message.
Debates in and of themselves, don't cause faith. They may destroy the
faith Mormons have in the LDS church, but they don't bring Mormons
into faith in Jesus. So our "focus" should never be debating doctrine.
However, that doesn't cross out pointing out the truth, but each of
those points should somehow be used to bring the conversation back to
the gospel and its beautiful message. And of course, everything should
be done with love, respect and gentleness as you already know.

With the points you have brought up with her so far, I have just a few
comments to clarify for you what she is really telling you.

On Point #2 The LDS believes that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3
separate Gods, 3 separate persons with one purpose. In Christianity
the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 1 God in 3 persons. You probably
will get nowhere fast discussing this topic simply because the trinity
is not easily grasped by even the true Christian.

Your point:

"3. I've looked at 1 Cor 15:41 where she has said that passage
relates
to her belief of 3 levels of heaven. (Is she stretching it to make it
what she wants?)"

You have to remember that your friend is not stretching anything she
believes. She sincerely believes what she is being taught. Rather try
to look at it as her being deceived into believing these things. But
yes, The LDS is stretching the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:41 and
taking it out of context. If you will read 1 Corinthians 15:35-55 you
will see the context. Firstly, the LDS believes in 3 kingdoms of
heaven. They are the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom and
the telestial kingdom. The verses in Corinthians only mention the
words celestial and terrestrial. If LDS teachings were true, why is
the telestial kingdom excluded here? It shouldn't be excluded, is the
answer. But a more important point is that in context, 1 Corinthians
15 is not talking about three heavens, but it is talking about our
earthly bodies and our glorified bodies. Read those passages and if it
still confuses you let me know and I will go into more detail on it
for you.

Your Point:

"4. Told her that I believe no other prophets have come after Jesus
because of what JESUS did for us on the cross. HOWEVER, THE VERSE:
Hebrews 1:1-2 "In the PAST God spoke to our forefathers THROUGH THE
PROPHETS at many times and in various ways, BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS he
has spoken to us by his Son," you told Alan about is amazing and I
would love to share with her."

Yes and the reason Jesus still remains our Prophet, High priest and
King is because he still lives and reigns. Prophets and Priests died
and thus were prevented from continuing in that position. But Jesus
lives forever. In the same way, not only does Jesus nullify Joseph
Smith as prophet, but he also nullifies the entire priesthood in the
sense that the LDS believes it still exists. Hebrews 7:23-25 "Now
there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from
continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a
permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those
who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for
them." Read through Hebrews Chapter 7 to get an understanding of the
context. But the other verse I gave is important also: Ephesians 2:20
"built on the foundation of THE apostles and prophets, with Christ
Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." This passage clearly points
out that our foundation is built on the apostles and prophets of the
Bible, not on an ongoing succession of apostles and prophets as the
LDS teaches and believes.

Your Point:

"Lastly, in looking up 1 Cor 15, I read the entire chapter and it
speaks on baptism for the dead. Paul was asking the Corinthians why
they were still practicing this ritual. This is the chapter my friend
directed me to for the previous statement #3. My Mormon friend has
told me about her baptism for a particular woman in her family line
and even started tearing up when explaining how much it meant to her.
Can you look at 1 Cor 15:29 and let me know what you think. Thank
you."

If you examine the passage closely, it says "...what will those do who
are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are
people baptized for them? And as for us..." Notice that Paul
distinguishes between "THOSE" who baptize for the dead and "US". So
whoever was baptizing for the dead wasn't a part of that Christian
group. As for explaining who Paul is speaking about, we cannot explain
it fully and it would be just speculation. No other scripture passage
gives us a clearer understanding of who Paul is talking about here.
But that said, the dead cannot change their eternal destiny for we are
judged based on what happened while we were in this life. 2
Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of
Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,
according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

Your point:

"I know this is a lot to ask, but you have truly inspired me to press
on. She has told me that she believes the Mormon Church is the one
true church. Truthfully, I knew she thought that but it really did
not offend me. I guess b/c Greater is He who is in me than in the
world. One good thing between my meetings with my Mormon friend is
that when she shares her beliefs it encourages me to dive deeper into
His Word, and only His Word."

I love this! I love that you want to dive into his word! That is the
only way to avoid deception and to learn the truth. I commend you for
that!
It is so great to hear that you don't get offended. As Christians, we
need to be that way for the sakes and souls of the lost. They can't
help what they do or say for the one who is in the world is in them,
but like you said: "greater is he who is in us!"


If you have more questions, you keep asking! Don't worry if it's too
much! That is what we are here for!

Keep in his word!
Echo

[erins...@gmail.com]

Dear Echo,

Thank you so much for the thought and preparation that went into your
response to my posting. Thank you for the links to the Mormon
definitions. That helped me a lot in understanding where my friend is
coming from. You were right in saying that what she tells me "sounds"
Christian when she speaks, but through further examination of their
doctrine and the Gospel, it is different. To be truthful with you,
when hearing their ideas at first they can be very appealing. However,
in digging deeper there is a true contrast with one who believes
Christ is Divine.

You are so right in saying that " it is through the gospel that
Mormons will come to believe," because that is how I came to know the
Lord. (Also, by witnessing other's lives around me who truly lived
out the Gospel. I saw something so different in them.) Therefore, I
will always pray that the Holy Spirit would guide me to share the
message of Christ crucified on our behalf, not that "after all we can
do," can we go to heaven- like I used to believe.

Thank you for the references to Hebrews 7. I am going to copy that
verse and memorize it. Also, thank you for and explaining 1 Cor 15:29
about baptisms for the dead and that Paul said "those" instead of us.
That was EXTREMELY helpful.

However, when my friend was explaining the 3 levels of heaven, in her
reference to 1 Cor 15:41 she was talking about how we would also
receive different bodies according to what level we were going to...
so that still confuses me. Can you elaborate farther on earthly
bodies and heavenly bodies? Thank you. :) I can only really see
where you are coming from but do you have a clue where she is coming
from? Thanks.

When my friend tells me "everyone is a child of God," does that come
from her belief that Heavenly Father has spirit babies in heaven? (so
they believe literally everyone is a child of God.) I tell her we are
all created and that God knew how many hairs would number on our head
from the beginning of time, but that only through surrendering one's
life to Christ can one become a child of God. Funny this is, I was
taught the same concept that we are all God's children from my mother
growing up. Truthfully it is a hard to hear one thing all your life
and then read that it was not what the Bible said. So, in all that
how would you share with my Mormon friend who believes this?

My friend says that she believes only the worst of the worst will go
with Lucifer and his angels like Murderers and Adulterers. How do I
really explain to her that God views all sin the same... I've told her
but how do I show her? This concept seems very similar to the way I
used to think in the Catholic Church, before I was presented the
Gospel.

Thank you so much for all of your time and love you have for the lost
and helping me witness to my friend. May the Lord see you and know
that you are doing a mighty work. Thanks be to Him! I am so grateful
for this website and all the people on it!

Love
ESH

On Feb 16, 7:22 pm, Echo <echo.mount...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> The Catholic Church doesn't preach the true gospel and that is why you
> unfortunately never heard it there.
> And I agree with you that it doesn't mean that all Catholic's are not
> Christian. If they read and believe the gospel in the Bible, they are
> saved.
>
> I am touched by your love and concern for your Mormon friend! You are
> a true friend indeed.
>
> The first and most important thing you can do for your friend is to
> pray for her and for yourself as a witness to her. Ask God to keep you
> from falling into deception and to equip you as his witness. Pray that
> God will open your friends eyes and heart to the truth.
>
> To begin with, when your Mormon friend comes to you with Scripture and
> rituals of her church, you could continue to listen and learn what she
> believes. Keep in mind that when she explains something to you, it may
> "sound Christian" but the LDS puts different meanings into the words.
> Familiarize yourself with Mormon definitions by clicking here on our
> website:
>

> http://www.truthinlovetomormons.com/resources/downloads/mormonese_dic...

> ...
>
> read more »

[Echo]

Hi ESH

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words!

Okay here are my thoughts:

1 Corinthians 15:41

The LDS believes in 3 levels of heaven. The Celestial is symbolized as
the Sun, the Terrestial as the Moon and the telestial as the Stars. So
when they read the passage above, they see a reference to the 3
kingdoms of heaven that they believe in. This symbolism comes apart
from(outside of) the Bible and therefore is read into the Bible and as
a result, it fits their doctrine. I don't think a conversation on this
particular topic will be very fruitful for you unless you can find a
way to bring it to the gospel message. But I do think it is good for
you to understand what they believe about it. I think the best thing
to do is to focus on their celestial kingdom. Don't use the term
"heaven". Use terms such as "Celestial Kingdom" or "Exaltation" or
"eternal life" when speaking to your friend. These terms, to your LDS
friend, refer to the Celestial Kingdom itself and not the other
kingdoms of heaven they believe in.
In order to get into the celestial kingdom, the LDS believe there are
conditions. We believe there are no conditions. This is where the
gospel comes in.

The LDS believes we are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
as you said. They believe that angels and demons, and even Jesus and
Satan as well as all mankind together are our literal brothers and
sisters. You are right as you said, God "created" Adam and Eve. Adam
and Eve fell into sin and as a result they sold themselves to the
devil to be his children. We are the offspring of Adam and Eve and so
we are in the same family as they are. God tells us now that we must
be "born again" to enter into his family. He also describes us
becoming his children etc.

Here are some passages on being born again:

John 3:3 "In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can
see the kingdom of God unless he is born again"

1 Peter 1:23 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed,
but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God."

Some others:

John 3:6-7 "FLESH GIVES BIRTH TO FLESH BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES BIRTH TO
SPIRIT. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born
again"

John 1:12-14 "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in
his name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD-- children born
not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but
born of God."


The below verse describes how receiving the Spirit makes us sons. And
how prior to that we were slaves to fear in the devils family.
Romans 8:15-16 "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a
slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by
him we cry, "Abba, Father."

Romans 9:8 "In other words, it is NOT THE NATURAL CHILDREN WHO ARE
GOD'S CHILDREN, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded
as Abraham's offspring."

1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who
the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is
not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."


I know what its like to believe or hear one thing all your life only
to learn the truth later. I wasn't raised Christian at all and I
always believed we had to be really, really good to enter heaven and
so we could never be certain wether or not we would go to heaven until
the way we lived our whole life proved we were good enough.
But I am glad I learned the truth! I rejoice with you that we aren't
"saved after all we can do" but that we are saved because of all that
Jesus did! What peace and assurance of God's love that brings!

I attend one of many WELS(Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
churches and I have never heard the phrase: "we must surrender our
lives to Christ to become a child of God" from anywhere or from anyone
within WELS. I have heard it from Christians outside of WELS only, but
I am uncertain exactly what is meant by it. I know you believe we are
not saved by works because of your comment about us not being saved by
grace after all we can do. But my first impression in hearing it aside
from whatever the true meaning is, is always that I must be obedient
in order to become a Child of God or I must do something to become a
Child of God. And we both know that that is opposite of the truth in
scripture. If I misunderstand its meaning, then unbelievers will
misunderstand it also especially since the spiritually blind
unbeliever always assumes that we become a child of God by our
obedience. So whatever it truly means isn't as important as the
impression it gives unbelievers and especially the LDS since they are
ingrained into that type of thinking. Could I suggest an
alternative? Since Jesus has done all the work for us in our behalf
as you already know, keep the focus on him alone and what he has done
for your friend. Talk about his unconditional forgiveness. Tell her
that she is already forgiven for all her sins. Tell her that she is
forgiven IN her sins. Tell her that she doesn't first have to overcome
a sin in order to be forgiven. If you need more help with this, please
don't hesitate to ask! I am not sure where you are at in your walk
with God so I am unsure if I am saying more than I need to or if I am
not saying enough.


The fact that God views all sin the same including all that Jesus
taught in the sermon on the mount is shown in the following verses:


James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just
one point is guilty of breaking ALL OF IT."

Galatians 3:10 "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse,
for it is written: "CURSED is everyone who does not continue to do
EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law."


Truly, your friend is extremely blessed to have a friend like you who
is very concerned about her eternal welfare!

Keep in the word!
Hugs
Echo




On Mar 5, 9:18 am, "erinsig...@gmail.com" <erinsig...@gmail.com>
wrote:

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