Printing with Taulman3D Nylon 618

[Scott Turner]

One of my first tasks for my batch 1 Trinity One will be mastering printing with Taulman3D Nylon 618.

I've been working with it on a PrintrBot Jr, which, despite it's cost point, is actually a very precise 3D printer.

I was able to print 10 tooth XL pulley's and small extruder gears on Blue Tape. However, the large extruder gear would literally rip the Blue Tape completely off the Jr's Birch plywood print bed. The gear itself was well adhered to the Blue Tape but the tape was no longer stuck to the bed.

I've got a laser cut acrylic bed on the way from Maker Farm to see if that will stay stuck to the Blue Tape.

In the mean time reports are that Nylon 618 sticks to poplar wood sheets, so I figured: how about Birch plywood?

Nylon 618 does indeed stick to Birch plywood but still not well enough to keep the large extruder gear from curling up and eventually coming loose from the bed during the print.

So I began upping the BRIM in slic3r eventually reaching a whopping 16mm! This was literally the last gasp for the Birch bed as not one more mm of BRIM would fit on the bed around the large extruder gear! I'm happy to report that barely did the trick. After the print there were small cracks around the perimeter of the gear where it joined the BRIM but it had stayed flat on the bed and completed the print!

A little clean up of spider webbing from the super slippery nylon 618 leaking out during travels and I have a Nylon 618 large extruder gear.

My first Trinity One Taulman3D Nylon 618 experiment will be to use diluted Elmer's White Glue brushed on the Schott Borofloat 33 print bed to see if that will hold onto the Nylon 618 and if the heated bed will eliminate warpage.

I have 3 pounds on hand and another 3 pounds on the way. I figured I would start this thread to exchange tips with other Trinity One owners on how to tame this fabulous new filament. I have so many ideas for what to do with it once I can print it well.

[djoatm...@gmail.com]

Looks great. I just ordered two spools.

[Rick Zehr]

I've got sample quantities too, and will give it a try for my sport fencing products. 

Yesterday I tried the hammer test on sample parts made from ABS and sintered polyamide, from Ponoko. These will be subjected to the rigors of competition and will be replacing brass or stainless parts, so they have to be tough. For the hammer test I used a 2-lb. hammer on them on the concrete garage floor.

The ABS broke fairly easily, and came apart between layers. The polyamide was quite a bit tougher, but when it broke, it shattered into large pieces with sharp jagged edges.

I have hopes for the Taulman 618, but if I can't get a threaded insert bonded into it solidly, I'll go to polycarbonate - with luck the Taulman will do the job, as it seems fairly easy to print

[Jonathan Shapiro]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 7:41:36 AM UTC-8, Rick Zehr wrote:

I have hopes for the Taulman 618, but if I can't get a threaded insert bonded into it solidly, I'll go to polycarbonate - with luck the Taulman will do the job, as it seems fairly easy to print

Ignorant question: can the hot end on the Aluminatus handle polycarbonate materials? I thought that required higher temperatures.

[Rick Zehr]

I consulted with Ezra, and he says the hot-end will do the job, but will need a steel nozzle without teflon liner. I've ordered my printer with it.

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Very cool. Is that something on their website, or a special order item? At some point I'll want one of those nozzles myself, so if you have the item information I'd appreciate it.

[Rick Zehr]

Special order - contact their Support desk at http://support.trinitylabs.com

[Scott Turner]

Stow pictures of one of my tirture tests of a 3mm filament spool clip being clipped around a 16mm drill bit (used for clearing LM8UU mounting holes) and a picture of it afterwards looking perfectly happy and un distorted.

[Scott Turner]

Pictures of successfully printing a large extruder gear directly on Birch plywood using 16mm BRIM. You can see the crack with the BRIM. This was printed at 230C.

[Scott Turner]

Next effort was a Kossel end effector in which I bumped the temp to 240C and left BRIM at 16mm I will try reducing the BRIM and see if I can still keep it on the bed.

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

Very nice prints and good tips Scott, thanks! I did only get to play with the nylon once for a bit and it prints amazingly well and is nice and slippery stuff. But like Scott says curling of the parts off the bed are the issue. I got about 6 layters into my print and one of the corners curled up hard.

I didn't yet have time to figure out what the best build plate will be for this stuff. I used no heat so i will try some heat. But I have hearrd that wood or even some G10 PCB material with tons of little holes drilled like a breadboard sort of thing where the bottom layer of mnylon can stick in all the holes and keep itself attached that way is the way to go. I will also try some acrlyic etcxhed with some small crosshatch patterns with my new laser and see what I vcan come up with there.

But the good news is that I have verified and full tested that the stock jheadhot end that ships with these Aluminatus printers *will* handle the taulman nylong no problem without melting its PTFE liner. I was printing at 230C - 235C which is well within the 245C safety zone for a PTFE lined hot end.

-Ezra

[Scott Turner]

The secret to beating the warp is 245C. Which is the temperature they say to use on their web site but no one wants to use because of all the bad things that start happening at 247C. :-)

So far the PrintrBot Jr factory firmware is very well calibrated and it seems to be holding together for four prints at 245C.

Here are some pictures of my most recent large extruder gear. It came out completely flat with an 8mm BRIM.

I'm going to try the Blue tape again next print.

I'm up to 8mm of retraction and still getting travel webbing. But you can see that the post print drool is significantly reduced so perhaps upping the temperature did more for drooling than the higher retraction value did.

[Bravin Neff]

Are the thermal couplers accurate enough to actually nail, say, 245C when you command it to do so? I always thought it was only as good as the measuring device, and expect something like + or - 2% accuracy. But if my tolerance is correct, a set value of 245C could very well put the extruder at 250C. Are these things really that accurate?

By the way, what happens to Taulman at 247C?

Regards,

Bravin Neff

[Scott Turner]

Bravin, nothing bad happens to the nylon 618 but hot ends have Teflon tubes in them to make them slick enough for PLA. this Teflon tube starts decomposing into toxic gases at 247C.

Yes, the thermistors at 3% accurate but its even more exciting than that! Most thermistor sensor circuits use 4.7K resistors instead of 1K resistors. The impact of this is that the digital value for 245C is roughly 0 eg the thermistor signal is pretty much gone anyway.

Ezra hasn't mentioned if he had the RAMps for the Trinity One's custom built with 1K resistors...hopefully he did.

By the way, if you have a bird living with you a 3D printer will very likely kill it. ABS fumes and/or Teflon fumes are toxic for birds. ABS fumes give me a head cold effect and I don't want to know what Teflon fumes do to me.

I keep a Therapure air purifier going full blast with its nano particulate titanium dioxide UV pumped VOC breaker turned on next to my printers. This breaks down ABS and Teflon fumes and keeps me and the cat safe.

[Bravin Neff]

Jesus. And I have 19 month old toddler running around. I guess I need to rethink this whole thing, and where I'm going to do it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regards,

Bravin Neff

[Jonathan Shapiro]

On Saturday, January 26, 2013 7:13:16 AM UTC-8, Bravin Neff wrote:

Jesus. And I have 19 month old toddler running around. I guess I need to rethink this whole thing, and where I'm going to do it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Bravin: It's not an issue for PLA, which is part of why most vendors are zeroing in on that material. It's not a serious issue for ABS if I understand the issues right. But yeah, there are a bunch of issues here where you really want to stay within the safety envelope.

Jonathan 

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Scott:

I've got a space with exhaust fans, but I'm a little concerned about blowing HCN at my neighbors. Is there something like a Therapure that I could deploy in that kind of configuration?

Jonathan

[Scott Turner]

While PLA prints between 185C and 200C, which keeps the hot end away from the Teflon break down zone, there are remaining issues with PLA.

For example: only neutral or natural PLA is pure PLA.

The only PLA PrintrBot sells is natural PLA with no colorants added (Brook is focusing on selling PrintrBot Jr PLA-only 3D printers for kids to use). I affectionately call it Ice Ice Baby because prints made with it look like they were printed with ice. (lots of photos on my scotty1024 Twitter feed)

Any other form of PLA contains unknown (as in I doubt even the colorant makers knows everything that's in it), undocumented (as in Trade Secret) and completely unregulated (PLA filament is not food)  "colorants".

When melting PLA the moisture in the PLA flashes to steam and you will hear pops as the steam bubbles burst free from the molten PLA. This bursting action releases fragments of the molten PLA along with any colorants.

I have a fleet of my Ziploc Big Bag/Eva Dry working to pull the moisture from my PLA but it isn't possible to get it all out.

These particles of PLA get around and evidently on my skin. My cat thinks PLA is tasty and loves to lick it off my fingers. I actively discourage this but she's patient and waits for me to go to sleep and I will wake up with her licking my fingers (which she didn't do prior to 3D printing entering our lives). It doesn't seem possible to wash all of it off because many of the particles are hanging on due to barbs in the particles mechanically stuck to my skin.

The other hazard to PLA is similar to the six pack rings and birds. 3D printing produces all kinds of chaff, strings, particles, blobs, little pieces you remove from the prints... these pieces eat vacuum cleaners by wrapping around the beater bars and jamming them. I use a Shop Vac to clean up with the HEPA filter bag installed to protect the pump. But when you have small crawling children around they can find little bits of PLA you missed or tracked around on your shoes.

There is the swallow angle and the PLA is safe to swallow from the toxic angle. And hopefully any colorant is safe to swallow along with it. However, one thing you do not see mentioned much about PLA is how SHARP it is! A fragment of PLA printed with a layer height of .2mm is quite sharp. Breathing, ingesting or playing with .2mm sharp things is contra indicated for most youngsters.

Also keep in mind the clothing you wear whilst printing and cleaning up parts. The PLA gets into your clothes and is not removed by detergents because it is hanging on via the tiny barbs in the fragments not via some greasy organic goop.

Machinists and assembly line workers wind up with their work clothes being washed separately to protect their families. The other option is a Tyvek painter's suit and suiting up to print and clean up parts.

And the last PLA hazard I will mention is: the scent of hot PLA. It's quite nice. Hot PLA reminds me of hot pop corn and when I'm working with Lexan I've been known to use the buttery flavored PAM as a release compound just to amuse myself with the smell of hot buttered PLA. :-)

Unless you have an active air filter you will be sending enticing odors to young noses....

[Scott Turner]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 1:08:46 AM UTC-8, Scott Turner wrote:

[Scott Turner]

Well since I'm located near Crossroads and you might be pumping HCN into my air... :-)

Yes, you need to clean the exhaust with activated carbon (charcoal).

http://fresh.amazon.com/product?asin=B000CB3ZY0&qid=141058463&rank=6&sr=1-6&tag=title

That's a car air filter with the activated carbon nicely setup to have air blown through it. And you might even be able to get same day delivery via Amazon Fresh! :-)

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Thanks for the reference. The HCN levels for ABS are about 20x lower than levels considered hazardous. Negligable for PLA. Still: best to handle this properly.

[Rick Zehr]

Meanwhile, back in reality...

If you really want to get rid of VOCs using activated carbon, you need a considerably larger quantity of activated carbon than the half-ounce or so that might be embedded in the car filter. Like around a pound or so every few months.

You are also not going to get rid of much VOCs with the Therapure series, because the UV lamps used are low-power and emit the wrong frequencies to activate the Ti catalyst - their effect is very weak at best - mostly marketing. Filter systems using this technology to remove VOCs effectively are very costly:  http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/chemical-air-purifiers.html

If you want to do the research to get an effective air filter, try this site: http://www.air-purifier-power.com/  He has enough history and technical understanding to make good recommendations.

My pick is the Winix 9300 - around US$240 at Amazon and others.

[Scott Turner]

The problem with "considered hazardous" is it's generally based on a limited sample size of mostly healthy adults.

When I was 16 I was chronically exposed to Trichloroethane 1:1:1 which was generally considered safe. The effects of that exposure have been devastating to me. I'm happy no one makes it any more, to save the ozone layer not humans but whatever it took to get it banned!

Due to the 1:1:1 exposure ABS fumes have a profound effect on me. I wind up with all the symptoms of a head cold for three days and had to quit going to Metrix because of their continued use of ABS.

[Scott Turner]

Specs only take you so far and then you have to test. Scientists and engineers love to focus on "peak performance" and "the best frequency" but in the real world "Good 'nuff" generally get's 'er done. 

The Therapure works for me and I'm quite sensitive to the ABS fumes. (I do have two and both run 24x7 and are replaced annually and cleaned monthly) In addition they completely eliminate Cleo's silica crystal box odor. Visitors regularly comment their surprise when they see the box: you have a litter box, I can't smell anything!

Thank you though for the pointer to the more powerful unit, I'll be sure to check it out. I keep an open mind and live my life by taking good advice where ever I find it and try to remember that if you don't keep an open mind you'll ignore it when you get it.

[Rick Zehr]

Sorry - finger-check. I picked the Winix 5300, at US$140 new from Amazon (I bought a factory refurb for $119).

[Scott Turner]

I finally got around to the 0 BRIM Blue Tape at 245C test (Taulman's just set 'er to 245C and hit print!) and it pulled the blue tape off the PrintrBot Jr's bed. Fail. Looks like it takes a healthy amount of BRIM and Birch plywood for a large extruder gear print.

Mailman just dropped off my LC Birch plywood Methadone for Ezra not getting me my Trinity One this weekend: clone PrintrBot Jr Kit (I helped reverse engineer it) Prusa i3 mini and Prusa i3 Shane's LC model (not the Twelvepro). I'm off to put the reverse engineered Jr together and see if we have it figured out now.

[Scott Turner]

Printing with Taulman3D Nylon 618 makes the PrintrBot Jr very Steampunk with all the steam rising up out of the laser cut wood extruder. :-)

How much steam will we get out of the Trinity One? Enquiring minds want to know!

[Jon Bondy]

Have you seen this?

http://3dobjectifying.blogspot.nl/2012/12/ceramic-hotend-part-1.html

On Saturday, January 26, 2013 7:37:49 AM UTC-5, Scott Turner wrote:

[Jon Bondy]

Not true.  Two african gray parrots living within 3 feet of my two printers, and no problems.

[ChrisHS]

It'll vary between birds size, species/type (canaries used to test the air in mines pre davy lamp), dilution & airflow, model size/duration, print head temperature.... so yours haven't had a lethal dose yet & may never get it, others might.

It doesn't look good for them if you apply enough heat to teflon.

Hot end are not accurately calibrated but should be far enough away from 280C mentioned for pyrolysis.

Always a chance of overheating taking it there though.

Birds & cooked teflon

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2874

Birds & fumes

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/small-pet-care/bird-kitchen-dangers.aspx

Can they fly & perch elsewhere in the room & so vote with their feet ?

On Sunday, 27 January 2013 12:48:13 UTC, Jon Bondy wrote:

Not true.  Two african gray parrots living within 3 feet of my two printers, and no problems.

Yet

[Scott Turner]

I will have to see if I can reach out to him and let him know about Taulman3D Nylon 618. PLA feels like I'm shoving steel wool down the hot end compared to the silky smoothness of nylon 618. His ceramic that doesn't work with PLA without the Teflon liner might just work with nylon 618.

I'm also wondering if Shapeways ceramic would work....

[Rick Zehr]

So you're willing to continue risking the birds lives based on the fact that they haven't died yet?

[Scott Turner]

The Eva Dry W500 has nearly half a kitty litter box's worth of silica gel in it. I left it in the bag with five pounds of Taulman3D Nylon 618 over night and the hydrometer said 16% RH in the bag this morning.

Printing with this bone dry Nylon 618 revealed several things.

1. Warpage is influenced by moisture. Steampunk reflects how moist the filament is. If it's steaming it's time to dry it out.

2. Spider webbing is influenced by moisture. If it's "wet" it webs less. If it's bone dry it webs like crazy.

3. Moisture influences the stretchiness of the printed Nylon 618. "wet" nylon 618 is flexible but less stretchy whereas bone dry nylon 618 prints webs that are like  gorgonzola cheese! (if you want to print e-fabric you want bone dry)

4. Taulman3D ships the Nylon 618 in a zip locking bag with 5g of silica gel (it might even be less than 5g). I now understand that it has been arriving here "wet". I recommend drying it out before using it.

Jr has been busy printing parts for the Prusa i3 mini in Nylon 618. 

After printing the Z axis parts I can now understand the comments about them breaking easily. The parts are designed such that the part is expected to be springy and apply gripping force to the smooth Z rod. I can see how PLA/ABS would object to this. When I shove a rod into the Nylon 618 parts it works as Prusa intended with no complaints and no fears of breakage.

Score one for Nylon 618 vs PLA/ABS.

Jr's Birch bed is working so well I haven't tried Blue Tape in several cycles. I may have to order up a sheet of Birch plywood for my Trinity One. :-)

Amazon has one I wouldn't even have to cut.... that 12" x 12" bed does simplify a few things!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A0J9BS

[Scott Turner]

I found some 3mm as well as 6mm Birch plywood on Amazon. The 3mm should be pretty close to a drop in replacement for the borofloat glass on the Trinity One.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003A0L37G

Now we see which gets here first: nylon 618 Birch print beds or the Trinity One. :-)

I tweaked the filament width up to 3.2mm and I'm now getting some very reasonable prints on the PrintrBot Jr.

[Michael Buffington]

I've had some success printing 618 nylon with a Replicator.

I tried printing to blue tape, heated beds, perf board, wood - none have worked as well as a 1/4" sheet of Nylatron.

Apparently there's a better material though. Garolite:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43634

Nylon sticks so well they have to use tape to reduce the amount of surface area touching the garolite sheet. I have a sheet on the way. Looking forward to testing it out - the 618 nylon is a really great material.

[Scott Turner]

That's hilarious!

On my PrintrBot I've been printing on the Birch plywood print bed, basically removing the "expected" print surface and printing on the item supplied to support the "proper" print surface.

Well underneath the heated bed of the Trinity One is a big ol' 12"x12" sheet of Garolite! (the G-10 as Ezra calls it)

I will contact Trinity Labs support and see if I can special order a sheet of G-10 to use with Nylon 618 along with my Trinity One. 

Thanks!

[Scott Turner]

Cool! I love Amazon! No need to bother Trinity Labs with a special order, my sheet of G-10 will be here Tuesday!

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006VYGTOK

Thanks for the tip Michael!

Will be interesting to see if PAM works as a part release agent with Nylon 618 and G-10.

[John D]

Jeeeze - you order the last ten or what?! "Temporarily out of stock" indeed!

[Scott Turner]

They do have other thicknesses and they only had one left in that thickness and yes I got it.

[Michael Buffington]

I got my sheet from McMaster Carr (or will, it arrives tomorrow):

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3609/=l8h5y8

1/4" thick, 6"x6" with shipping cost $21.90.

I went for the 1/4" thick because 618, when it pulls, is incredibly powerful. The Nylatron sheet I've used is incredibly strong, even at 1/8" of an inch, yet I've seen prints pull it enough to warp it enough that I can easily see it with the naked eye. Hopefully the Garolite will be able to resist bending/bowing as well as keep a grip on the Nylon.

The Nylatron sheet I used, incidentally, can be found here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0070ZDAPU/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00

Here's the entire list of various thicknesses/sizes:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AOENXJ2/ref=biss_dp_sa2

It's not the same as a plain Nylon sheet. Apparently it's nylon with a doping agent. I have no idea what that means, but it's clearly a different material than the 618 nylon filament.

For those printing with 618, this thread I started in the Makerbot forum might be interesting:

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/makerbot/rWczC8ZRqic/discussion

[Glenn Beer]

It's Nylon with a molybdenum disulfide lubricant mixed in.

[Scott Turner]

Thanks for the links to the Nylatron sheets.

 

I found that drying the Nylon 618 at 16% RH for at least 10 hours and printing at 245C really calmed down it's aggressive warpage.

 

I've observed "wet" PLA can do push ups as well when it's worked in large sheets. Steam powered is my theory.

[Scott Turner]

Slippery meet slipperier! :-)

 

I've been experimenting with using 5/16 rods of it for the smaller 4"x4" 3D printer designs instead of the SS smooth rods. I'm thinking the Prusa i3 mini design may work out.

[Rick Zehr]

For a nice design for a printable spool that does not require unwinding a coil to put in on the spool: http://www.soliforum.com/topic/589/filament-spoolsreels/

I particularly like the threaded version - just screw the two halves together in the coil.

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

If people are looking for G10 sheet to print nylon on we actually have a few hundred sheets of 3.2mm thick G10 in black color that we originally ordered to use as the y carriage on the aluminatus. Co-incidentally they are 300mm x 300mm to identical to the size of the glass print bed so you could easily slip one right one top of your glass when you want to print nylon.

I will see about putting these in the store as we can sell these 3.2mm thick black G10/FR4 sheets at 300mm x 300mm for $15.

-Ezra

[Glenn Beer]

This business about moisture being absorbed into filament - I had no idea it could be such a problem. It also explains a few problem cartridges I saw while working with the Dimension printer.

Most of the time, when extruding filament, to clear a color change, the extrusion was more or less a long straight strand. Other times it extruded with a lot of wild curlicues. Cleaning the tip made no difference.

This discussion has made it clear what was likely happening. Thanks

[Scott Turner]

Taulman Nylon 618 fresh from 48 hours at 16% RH, hanging straight down. :-)

[Josh S]

This is an incredibly interesting thread Scott!  Thank you!

What are the benefits of 618 over PLA or ABS?  I read that it is slippery, which is good for gears and such.  But is it more flexible, does it give more to shock than other plastics or is it harder?  I'm curious and a quick google search didn't help me other than reading some spec numbers that I don't understand.   The higher melting point is pretty nice, I can see that being beneficial.

Thanks for the log, please keep it going!

[Scott Turner]

My G-10 came in yesterday from Amazon and I got around to trying it today.

These Kossel Open Beam rollers warp even with PLA on a heated bed so they are a severe torture test for the Taulman Nylon 618.

As you can see: warped but a beautifully shiny warped! :-)

I let my nylon get damp, it rained today and I was too distracted with my delivery from Arrow for the Smoothie Board to remember to swap out for a fresh pound of Nylon. I fully expect to have better pictures tomorrow using dry Nylon.

[Michael Buffington]

I was able to print a 100% warp free part on the G10 that practically rolled over on itself on previous attempts.

I'll take some photos later tonight.

One thing I learned is that if you reduce the amount of surface area it helps. Don't use a raft, and make sure your first layer isn't too thin or thick.

I'll post more specs tonight as well, but I think it's safe to say that I've got things pretty dialed in for 618. Which is super exciting since the stuff has such potential.

[Laird Popkin]

I've been printing 618 Nylon on a Replicator (not 2/2X) on Garolite LE, and it's been amazing. It's turning out to be very easy to print - nice and smooth, sticks well, comes off with not too much prying. I've been printing on 1/32" sheet, clipped to the print bed with binder clips, and that's been fine for smaller parts, but long/tall parts pull so hard the Garolite sheet (which is fairly flexible) pulls up. I just got 1/4" sheet, which is rock solid, and I hope it'll resist any attempted warping.

My goal is to print a nylon Quad copter. I printed one in PLA, and it looked beautiful until it crashed and shattered. :-( I've printed and tested several parts, and given how durable the Nylon parts are, anything that could break the Nylon would have destroyed the props, controller, and batteries first!

- LP

[Jon Bondy]

I'm interested in learning more.  What kinds of extruder temperatures are you using?  Because my Solidoodle has PEEK in the hot end, I have been told never to run it over about 210C, and the Taulman3D web site recommends at least 240C.  Are there some hot ends that would not work with the nylon?

On Thursday, January 31, 2013 5:38:19 PM UTC-5, Michael Buffington wrote:

[Laird Popkin]

I have been printing at 22-240. I don't know the rules for PEEK. I thought it was 245, but I don't have one, so I am not sure .

- Laird Popkin

Sent from my iPhone. Apologies in advance for typo's.

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[Scott Turner]

The temperature has to be adjusted upwards to print faster, just like with PLA/ABS. I found nylon 618 starting flowing at 220C. I am printing large complex Prusa i3 parts for testing and have been running 50/88 (perimeter/infill) mmp/s so I've been running at 245C.

PEEK begins softening at 248C and PTFE liners start out gassing at 247C.

The issue with 245C is how much overshoot does your printer allow in the temperature of the hot end and how accurate is your particular temperature sensor? Some sensors are only 10% accurate. So in theory 245C could be closer to 270C. 

If you make 3D printers and want to avoid health issues then saying the max temp is 220C gives  your printer safety margin for a temperature sensor that is 10% accurate.

Sent from my iPad mini 4G

[Gabriel DeVault]

Are you printing on raw g10 straight out of the box? Or you prepping or cleaning it with acetone or anything?

[Scott Turner]

I washed my G-10 with Simple Green, rinsed in cold water, patted dry with a paper towel, printed on it.

I haven't encountered the super sticky effect discussed on Thingiverse. Items are stuck down but have come loose with a simple tug equivalent to pulling up a strip of weak clear magic tape.

 

Adhesion has been less than with Birch plywood but so far no wear seems to be occurring to the G-10 print surface. I may be able to drill it in the corners and screw it on top of the PrintrBot Jr's bed using the #6 screws on the bed corners.

I have assembled the Y table for a Prusa i3 mini using Nylon 618 printed parts. PLA or ABS parts always hinted to you that you needed to be careful with them regarding the threaded rods being tightened. Pops, creaks, groans and some times outright cracks would develop. So far the printed nylon parts have glided onto the threaded rods and have accepted tension from the nuts with no sound effects. In fact they feel strong and slippery enough to assemble with no washers.

I will try no washers on the next run of parts.

The one pound plastic bubble shell packages have been working well with six units. I pull out a package, use it for 12 hours then tuck the filament end back into the provided end capture mechanism and put it back on top of the stack in the dry bag. Then pull a spool off the bottom of the stack for the next session.

This has let me round robin the spools and provided me with dry filament (when I remember to rotate the spools).

The clear plastic bubble shell allows the filament to be handled as if it were a cassette of filament for a high end commercial 3D printer. This has been keeping the filament clean and free of finger oils and dust. And yet the packaging appears to be inexpensive PET so you can dispose of it in the recycle bin with no pangs of desire to repurpose it.

I look forward to being able to plate up an entire set of Prusa i3 parts and print them on my Trinity One. Although with a current top nylon 618 print speed of 50/88 that will be one long print job. :-)

Maybe with a heated bed I can push the filament faster without sacrificing strength and print quality.

Sent from my iPad mini 4G

On Jan 31, 2013, at 23:40, Gabriel DeVault <emot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are you printing on raw g10 straight out of the box? Or you prepping or cleaning it with acetone or anything?

--

[Michael Buffington]

I used some water and liquid dish soap to wash mine. I sanded one side with a sanding block with 800 grit. I did that for two reasons - I was curious to see if sanded, it held less or more than the smooth side, and also, sanding helped knock down any high spots.

Regarding that - my 1/4" sheet was indeed no perfectly flat. Maybe on average it is, but there were subtle high and low spots. Probably not an issue, but hey, one side is flat now.

[Scott Turner]

Flat matters with a 3D print bed. Part of why I went for the thinner sheet of G-10 from Amazon myself.

 

With Nylon 618 it is even more important because you have to use a thin first layer as well. Typically 3D printing gets "cushion" for bed flatness and levelness by printing a thicker first layer/raft. But with Nylon 618 you have to print <.3mm for the first layer as well. So your bed needs to be flat and level down to under .3mm (or whatever you selected for your layer height).

[Michael Buffington]

Indeed, flat matters. But "flat" is also relative. The amount of sanding I had to do to get my G-10 sheet "flat", for example, was minimal. We're talking maybe 20 seconds worth of light circular motions using 800 grit.

Why a thinner sheet though?  How is that any flatter than a thicker sheet?

I got a 1/4" sheet so that the nylon wouldn't warp the G-10 (sorta defeating the purpose).

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Rick:

I was thinking about polycarbonate again and your answer about steel nozzles. Which prompts three questions:

1. Can that steel nozzle also handle PLA and ABS?

2. In the standard nozzle, what's the functional purpose of the teflon liner?

3. From a design perspective, why not just use a steel nozzle for everything?

Jonathan

[Scott Turner]

Steel conducts heat poorly compared to brass or aluminum.

Steel is rougher which is an issue with PLA.

The PTFE liner helps PLA and ABS feed with less friction and still form a nice tight seal to form vacuum during retraction moves.

Steel can craze glass so it can damage glass print beds if the Z height is too low.

Nylon 618 is so slippery it probably doesn't care about a PTFE liner or coarse steel nozzle. The steel nozzles extra friction might also mean less retraction needed. But if not, the looser seal from lack of PTFE liner could be a mess.

Sent from my iPad mini 4G

On Feb 4, 2013, at 8:48, Jonathan Shapiro <jonathan....@gmail.com> wrote:

R

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[John D]

From my experience, using a Josef steel tube.

1] Yes, but the inside has to be polished.  It's dodgy, and prone to jam from both over heating and under heating.
2] Acts as a low friction liner between the cold and the hot ends. 
3] Steel nozzles are gaining more acceptance now that most people have given up on the concept of "make it at home".  Using stainless as a tube is not trivial to drill for the filament bore.  Drilling the orifice is even more entertaining.  Then you have to have a non-plastic mount for the "cold" end of the extruder, 'cause it's not cold.. ;-)

Just my experience.  I've got two - and both are fiddle and not worth the hassle if you have a j-head that works perfectly fine.

[Rick Zehr]

I've been re-thinking this too, in the light of new materials that have come available recently: to wit, the Taulman 618, Clear ABS from 3DPrinterGear in Australia, and Crystal PLA from printbl. 

My requirement is a transparent material which is also durable - crystal-clear would be ideal, but the Taulman nylon might be acceptable (barely) as to transparency. I'm pretty sure I can design for ABS.

So, with new information from the comments by Scott and John, I'm going to contact TL and cancel my steel nozzle request.

[temo]

Hello

So many guesses, here is what Taulman said when I asked them:

Hello
Can you recommend an hotend for printing Taulman, at the high temp this material needs?
Regards
Terje Moe

"Terje,
     We believe most hot ends work as no one has had any issues extruding 
       We want to thank everyone for their incredible interest in 618!"

Terje

[Scott Turner]

Here is what Taulman told me when I asked for recommendations: we are vendor neutral. :-)

 

They did tell me though that they don't use recent versions of Slic3r because "it hops around too much", they report they use Slic3r 0.4.x to generate GCode for their prints.

 

I have to agree with them that slic3r 0.9.8 does some sub-optimal moves that play to the weaknesses in Nylon 618(and does bad things with Diamond Age PLA as well).

 

I'm presently rigging up a Lulzbot Budaschnozzle 1.2 to a Prusa i3 to try it out on Nylon 618.

[John D]

I'd love to actually see some of their "professional" customers prints.  I've seen what Dizingdof is posting, and it's much better than what I can manage.  I have some quality time this weekend to play.

FYI, try 0.7.2b slic3r.  It actually works, and has decent tool path planning.  They are not getting accurate part sizes out of 0,4.xx.  Again, I'd love to see them actually sharing some information....

[Scott Turner]

I used to use .7.2 and it made much nicer large extruder gears for me. The older Slic3r would work it way around the gear printing it and the newer slic3r hops back and forth across the middle printing it.

 

I bought Netfabb but I haven't been able to make heads or tails of "RPM" and how to set that up. :-( I need to break down and make time to get tech support as they get glowing reviews for their tool path planning.

[John D]

Let me know how netfabb works out for you - I've been using KISS lately - I'll probably spring for a license when the A1 arrives.  It's stunningly fast, and has a concept of tool path planning that puts slic3r to shame - plus it supports variable volumetric extrusion.

Downside is he uses a different lexicon as well, so you have to translate a bunch of terms you are already familiar with...

[Scott Turner]

Spools 10 and 11 arrived yesterday with six packets of silica gel per spool.

I've left these as they arrived and will test print with them today to see how six packets manages their moisture content.

I've been spending my time reverse engineering the Smoothie Board to figure out how to make it work. I would rather be experimenting with Nylon 618 but ..

[John D]

I've had two rolls of 3m in the bucket for a week drying - hoping to have some play time this weekend.

[Alastair Seggie]

John did you get that here in the UK or over in the US?

Al

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[John D]

US Alistair - I travel back and forth about once a month.  If you'd like a roll, let me know.   I've got three and a bit at the moment, and more projects than time.

[John D]

FYI - latest git version of slic3r has an option to "avoid" crossing perimeters.    I just built it, and the tool paths that it generates are I think much better from printing 618!

[Ben Malouf]

I've been printing in 618 for months now and loving it.  So far wood was the best bet print surface.  But then Taulman posted on Tverse about Garolite LE as a print surface a while back.  http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43634

I have a 1/4" thick by 6"x6" sheet of it clipped to my heated bed (only heating to about 50C) and it's insanely effective at holding the print down.  Almost too effective if you start Z too low, but you can get the prints off with care.  Fortunately, the toughness of the 618 material allows a little more abuse in prying it off the bed.  

Highly recommended!  http://www.mcmaster.com/#garolite/=ldrg94

Cheers,

Ben Malouf

http://acuitydesign.co

http://thingiverse.com/benitosanduchi

[John D]

Hey Ben - I've been meaning to ask if you'd tried the Garolite, then saw your vase today! :-)

[Glenn Beer]

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 6:30:06 PM UTC-8, Ben Malouf wrote:

>
> Highly recommended!  http://www.mcmaster.com/#garolite/=ldrg94

This link leads to a generic page. Which of the variants of Garolite are you using?

[hellphish]

Garolite LE, like he said. :)

[John D]

So my Garolite arrived at lunch today, and I have to say it does NOT look like the pictures I've seen of others.  It's got a very smooth - almost glossy finish.

I tried printing directly on it, and no joy.  Took a piece and sanded it up a bit, and man - I think I'm happy.  The base did NOT warp at all, and when things cooled down, it was hard but not impossible to twist it off the surface.

Early days yet, but I'm cautiously optimistic!

[Scott Turner]

I have been busy moving my 3D printing studio into a Creative Commons here in Seattle.

My sheet of G-10 from Amazon is the shiny type. Nylon 618 sticks to it but not well enough to stop warping. However, what I discovered was Blue Tape sticks to the shiny G-10 well enough to not pull up and allow the Nylon to warp.

[John D]

Scott - I've ordered some from McMaster, so I'll be able to see the difference.  This is - so far, with limited testing - the best print surface I've tried.  I'm now about 10mm Z into this one at .15mm layers, and no sign of tearing loose....  Second picture is at about 3mm?

[Michael Buffington]

I've got the 1/4" sheet from McMaster. It came completely shiny. I did some light sanding on one side with some super fine sandpaper and I've had no issues with prints lifting at all. I wet a paper towel with regular rubbing alcohol and clean the board between prints. Not sure it makes a difference or not, but it leaves a nice clean surface.

I'll have to post some pictures, but I've printed shapes that are challenging with ABS, let alone Nylon. I'm able to print those shapes in Nylon now at 80-100mm/s without anxiety.

[John D]

I may need a bit more sanding Michael - the piece I was printing did eventually lift about .5mm on the end tabs, but not nearly as bad as I've come to expect.  I need a bit more experimentation, I also noticed I forgot to leave the heat on in the printer room, so it probably dropped down to 17-18 before the print finished....

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

Before anyone else goes out and buys more G10 sheets here let me make an offer to everyone in the first group of 50 Aluminatus orders.

Originally we were going to use 3.2mm thick 300mm x 300mm sheets of G10 for the Aluminatus Y carriage that is now the square lasercut 6mm thivck Aluminum part that is highly superior.

So I do have quite a lot of 300mm x 300mm 3.2mm thick pieces of shiny black G10 here not doing anything fun in particular. I am going to make a token gesture for anyone in the first *or* second group of Aluminatus orders and offer this >>

$5 + shipping for a 3.2mm thick 300mm x 300mm piece of G10 for use as a nylomn print surface for anyone in the first 2 groups of Alumimnatus customers. Now this is actually much less then I actually paid for it but accept it as a token gesture for my overenthusiastic time estimation skills :P

I will put this G10 up in the web store tomorrow and post back here with a link and anyone who has already recieved their printer but wants one can pay the $5 plus shipping to get one and anyone who wants one but hasn't had their printer ship yet can get one for $5 and we will put it in with your printer package. 

If you aren't one of the lucky folks who are in the first 2 batches then these pieces of G10 will be for sale in the web shop for $25/each plus shipping which is much closer to my cost.

Happy Valentines day or happy I am an asshole day or happy festivus or what have you, please accept a black shiny piece of garrolite for $5 that is the exact same size as the glass print surface in the Aluminatus and once lightly sanded will fit right on top of the glass or in place of the glass and allow you to [print taulman 618 nylon on what I have heard is one of th ebest surfaces to use for it now.

Thanks for everyone's continued patience3, please enjoy this small token at my expense ;P I will post back here tomorrow(today?) with the link and the coupon code or instructions on how to claim the discount. I just needs to first locate the G10 sheets here at my sekret laire and get them over to the shipping department and warn them of what I have just promised and then I will get this online later in the day.

Thanks

Ezra

[John D]

Awesome, and appreciated - if you don't mind, can you fix it so we can order more than one to be included with our A1's?  My workflow is print, remove bed, replace bed, print, service first bed - so having a second allows a faster turnaround for us.

[Jean-François Talbot]

How nice of you. 

While speaking of "upgrades" have you got the chance to test your new stainless stell hod end ?

Jeff

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

I have just trturned home this evening to a box with 10 of the new gorgeous all metal hot ends waiting for me. I have passed a few out to teammates to test and will test one myself tomorrow. Here is what they look like, pretty little suckers >>

And size comparison to a jhead that ships with the Aluminatus by default.

Will have to report more details tomorrow or later today as to how they work but the prototypes have worked amazingly well.

-Ezra

[Jean-François Talbot]

The first image that comes to mind, is Golum from the Lord of the Rings with the one ring in his hand.

How shiny and beautiful....

Jeff

[Lukas Kalvaitis]

I will definitely take you up on this offer - Thanks!

[Bravin Neff]

Ezra, did this end getting put on your site, or mentioned elsewhere? Thanks.

[Ben Malouf]

Interesting.  My garolite LE sheet is very shiny, but the nylon still sticks to it really well.  No sanding required.  I wonder what the difference is...

Nice vase, btw.  :)

[Dave]

I am all over the garolite offer for us lucky first-in-liners.  And if it's possible to order multiple sheets at the price, I will, but it's cool if it's just one, too. 

Dave

[William Collier]

I'd like one of the sheets.

[Michael Buffington]

To be fair, I have no idea if Nylon sticks to my Garolite sheet's shiny side. I could try it out this weekend and see. I just followed the tips from this thing on Thingiverse about roughing it up a bit:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43634

Of note - the sheet I purchased from McMaster isn't black - it's a dark, honey-like, color. The matrix of fibers is visible as a lighter honey color.

My guess is that the Garolite LE from McMaster is what's commonly called Bakelite and that the G10 sheets are the electrically conductive version of the same stuff. It's usually black because instead of cotton fibers it uses carbon fiber. Whether or not those differences matter when it comes to being good for Nylon, I have no idea.

Here's an interesting source for "Bakelite" that shows you can get it in variants that use cotton, linen, even paper:

http://www.professionalplastics.com/BAKELITE

It's pretty interesting stuff even beyond it's use for printing on.

[Rick Zehr]

Actually Bakelite is the plastic. For those of you too young to remember them, Bakelite is what the old standard black dial telephones (before the Trimline-style phones) were made of. These were the telephones that if you hit someone with one, they stayed Hit!  It was high-tech material at the time - durable and moldable to almost any shape.

[Glenn Beer]

From childhood I remember this being called Phenloic. It was composed of layers of canvas,with phenolic resins and cured.

Fiberglass sheet, G10... same process, different resins.

[John D]

Hey Ben - I did another of your vases last night - but the wifey stole it to show off! 

Quick one - did you get your garolite from McMaster?

[Colt D. Majkrzak]

Ezra any update on this?

 

 

Best regards,

Colt Majkrzak  F5CI, F5SE

www.newerastreaming.com

www.bitbucketsolutions.com

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[djam]

Hi Ezra,

I'm up for 1 or 2 of the G10 sheets for the Aluminatus, how do I go about adding these to my Alu order ?

Darren

[Scott Turner]

Over in the "post your order # and ship date" thread Ezra stated everyone in the first 50 gets a sheet of G-10 packed in with their Trinity One.

Since Trinity Labs ordered G-10 sheets for the first 50 prior to changing the design: that probably exhausts the available supply.

I have been having success with the Amazon sourced G-10 sanded and with blue tape. The PrintrBot Jr design lets you poke holes in the corners and secure the G-10 sheet via the #6 screws while supporting it from bowing with the birch bed.

I am now up to 100/150 on the Jr. The Ubis hot end is ceramic which lets me safely up the temp to work at higher speeds. I would post temps but J Heads can't follow to these temps...

I am thinking I may be retro fitting a PrintrBot Ubis to my Trinity One to get the ceramic advantages on it as well.

[Rick Zehr]

From an earlier post in this thread by Ezra, "...we actually have a few hundred sheets of 3.2mm thick G10 in black color that we originally ordered to use as the y carriage on the aluminatus."