ABS on the T1 - What makes it stick?

[Eugene B]

My baldness has rapidly accelerated due to self extraction resulting from frustration over ABS print failures.

The ABS-acetone solution (100 mm/100 ml) fails to adhere prints to my T1 glass at 100°C bed setting. Hair spray also failed.

Yesterday, I successfully printed several parts on 32 mil FR4 clamped on to the glass with a bed temp of 115°C. However, this morning, the FR4 did not work. That caused me to pull out a substantial measure of my precious remaining hair.

I then looked up the following:
http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?4,121996,page=1

The consensus on the forum is that ABS juice on glass is wonderful, whether applied hot, cold, thick, thin, plain glass, borosilicate, sanded surface, brushed, wiped, concentrated, or dilute. However, I ain't been able to get nothin' stick to glass, often a glob of white ABS just follows the nozzle around. Other times, the ABS will break loose.

Reading about drafts on the print, I was concerned that the nozzle fan was complicating the situation. There is substantial turbulence from the nozzle fan that blows on the print surface. With the fan unplugged and a fresh coating of cold-applied ABS juice, I did get part adhesion with the bed temp cranked up to 130°C. I killed the print at 5 mm height because I didn't know how long I could operate the nozzle without a fan.

I presume that others have successfully printed with ABS, since many of the T1s were shipped with it. Has anyone had any luck?

Eugene

[Jean-François Talbot]

Got kapton tape ?

Maybe try kapton and ABS juice ?

Jeff

[hellphish]

I've had luck. here's how I print on glass:

apply two thick coats of aquanet unscented extra super hold

preheat bed to 97C and nozzle to 200C

home Z and check the nozzle height. It should be just touching the bed without pressing into it. adjust endstop screw if necessary

raise z 10mm

move the nozzle 100mm from center in each direction

home Z again, make sure the nozzle height is good. Adjust screw as needed

increase nozzle temp to 225

Home Z again! check nozzle height! It must be perfect.

print first layer no faster than 30mm/sec

Eugene

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[djam]

Hi Eugene,

I wonder if it could be moister in the ABS, you could try drying it out and see if it helps.

Darren

PS great videos/photos and addons.

[hellphish]

Good point Djam, quality, dry filament makes a huge difference.

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[Eugene B]

Good point we did have a spring storm move in last night. My filament could be a bit wet. I'll try some of those settings too.

Eugene

[Jon Bondy]

Eugene:

With my Solidoodles (which are basically baby A1s) I use a glass plate and a fresh, generous spray of hairspray each time I print (I never clean the glass off).  The Z height must be correct, or the first layer will not be pushed onto the bed properly: keep lowering the extruder until it just barely does not touch.  I use a piece of printer paper as a feeler gauge, and after that bring the extruder closer by a hair.  I also print my first layer at 25% of normal speed.  I also use a brim in Slic3r.

Some feel that you must perform the Z height adjustment with everything heated up.  If there is any warping or expansion/contraction going on, the bed should be hot.  The extruder can sometimes dribble, so make sure that it is clean when you use a feeler gauge, else you will be way too high (if a glob of plastic fools you into thinking that the extruder is touching the bed).

I hope that this helps.

Jon

[Cozmic Ray]

What screw is adjusted?
I thought A1 used shims   done once  level forever?
What endstop screw?  Z?    but adjusting same Z screw in different x-y positions
self defeating?
Is your Z stop used for homing?

Hmmmm what is the perfect nozzle height?

Baffling?

[Cozmic Ray]

"Never clean the glass" 
after a while you will have a 1/4" of hair spray lacquer built up on glass?
Are you using borosilicate glass?
What type/kind of hair spray   --- scented/unsented?
Sprayed on cold bed or hot bed?  How long do you let it dry?
Is dry hairspray reall sticky?   Don't see many women with junk sticking to their head?

Are you squirting ABS, PLA, nylon, or Laywoo-D3?

Solidoodle is NOT A1 -- it moves the z bed with one lift rail (simple screw drive)
and has a bed leveling system (and a wooden bed),  timing belt drives.

$500 machine vs $4000 (discounted to $2100) machine

Wow this is not simple?  Just think if you had to make all these decisions just
to print out you tax return?

Tnx
Cozmic

[hellphish]

Cozmic Ray, these are problems that everyone has their own solution to. If you want everything handed to you, you should get a Stratasys or similar commercial printer. 

If you don't have a printer, I can't help you. Do you have your printer and are having problems? Come into IRC and I'll help you out, or explain your problem here and get help next time someone checks their email. If you don't have a printer, you're just bitching, and there's nothing we can do to help you. 

So, did you need something or are you just venting?

--

[Cozmic Ray]

Actually a friendly poke at Jon
who has a lot more grey hair and a lot less of that since 3D printer arrived.

I have an Ordbot Hadron  in use for about 8 months now
Really wanted to order up an A1  but the more I read, the more it sounded
too good to be true.  
I can't get anything to stick to the glass I use.   Blue painter tape maybe.

Jon and I are friends going thru the growing pains of 3D printing
and a 4 hour print that is knocked off bed 3 hour into the print.
2 solidoodles vs 1 Ordbot Hadron
both of us looking for 3D print nirvana

This is not engineering   --- it's Alchemy  ---   perhaps ABS to gold?

The kids in 5 years will laugh at  ? ABS juice ?  as they 3D print on their smart
HP/Epson   i3Dprinter.

Doak!

[Triffid Hunter]

On 21 March 2013 12:18, Eugene B <eugene...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My baldness has rapidly accelerated due to self extraction resulting from
> frustration over ABS print failures.
>
> The ABS-acetone solution (100 mm/100 ml) fails to adhere prints to my T1
> glass at 100°C bed setting. Hair spray also failed.

I have never been able to get ABS to stick to bare glass reliably with
any popular method and I have tried them ALL as they gained and lost
popularity over time.

Here's what did finally work for me:

automotive window tint film (PET) on the glass. sanded lightly. with
ABSjuice on top applied with a paintbrush while bed is at printing
temperature so the acetone flash boils on contact. The absjuice should
leave a hazy film, if you get texture you probably made the mix too
thick ie too much ABS.

and don't make the bed too hot! on my MMax my thermistor reads 90c
when the surface is at ~106c - I'm obviously using the wrong table but
it doesn't matter as long as the numbers work.

I tell my slicer to do first layer at 100c (actual temp ~112c), then
drop to 85c (ie below 105c actual temperature). If the surface is
above 105c then my prints WILL peel because the ABS remains soft and
simply doesn't have the structural integrity to hold things down.

I empirically found these numbers by two methods:

1) watch out for hourglass warping. When the bed is too hot, the lower
10mm or so will contract inwards giving a characteristic hourglass
shape. Generally most visible on vertical corners of boxes.

2) observing consistency of brim when your part is at least 10mm high.
If your bed temperature is too hot, the brim will still be rubbery and
stretchy, and will succumb to warping forces. If it's too cold then
the brim will also succumb to warping forces. if it's just right, the
brim will be quite firm but still slightly more flexible than when
cold.

I only recently verified my suspicions regarding temperature
inaccuracy to be absolutely correct with a thermocouple.

Note: the ideal bed temperature zone is only about 5c wide! You MUST
drop the _surface temperature_ below 105c after the first layer for
best results.


pro tip: when applying window tint, use soapy water liberally so you
can squeegee out any bubbles. then LEAVE IT FOR 24H somewhere warm and
dry- do NOT try to quick-dry it using the heater or you WILL get steam
bubbles. Any bubble will almost instantly ruin its utility as a print
surface as they'll be the starting point for tears as soon as you
remove your prints.

do NOT squish the utter crap out of your first layer with this method-
you'll risk breaking your glass come removal time!



Before you ask, YES I can successfully print PLA on this same bed with
appropriate temperatures.

[Eugene B]

Triffid,

Thanks! I'm glad that I am not the only one. I was methodically making incremental changes to my extrusion and bed temperature trying to find something that worked. Ultimately, I had to give it up and switch back to PLA in order to get some parts done for my project.

As part of the process, I designed a couple of air flow ducts for the T1 to keep the nozzle cooling fan turbulence off my parts. (http://physibleexchange.com/users/eugeneb/physibles)

5 C° window . . . Wow. I broke out my OLD Fluke multi-point thermocouple reader. My bed surface is running about 10 degrees cooler than my 70°C set point (running PLA), tested at three different points. This may be unique to my setup. I'll have to test it at ABS temp range.

I'll pick up some automotive tint film the next time I hit the big city.

Eugene

[BigDan]

hi, 

i have ordered from a company in germany a special plate where you can print abs and pla and both sticks perfect and gets loose after cooling down. 

really expensive i have to say. a 30x30x0,98 plate will cost about 100 Dollar. 

this is the link in german: http://www.mtplus.de/3.html 

search for "Dauerdruckplatte", its the brown plate and you can order per mail via philipp.s...@mtplus.de

i cant tell you what kind of material it is, cause i dont know. 

What i know for shure, it is much better than boro,i compared these days on my mendel90

this stuff is amazing for me and i will order another one for my aluminatus, when it comes. 

here in germany we have people use this plate for one year 24/7 and all are impressed of it. 

Temps are 60 degrees for pla and 110 for abs.

dont heat more, temps are enough.

just take off your prints with hand.

i printed several torture tests without brim and without any sticky-problems ;) 

 

[djam]

google translation...

Continuous pressure plate:
The new permanent pressure plate allows PLA or ABS on a warmed bed to print. The outstanding material properties of our continuous pressure plate allow optimal adhesion of the printed parts during printing, when cooled to room temperature, the printed parts solve almost self The board is subject to wear and is indestructible. The annoying pasting the plate with tape on conventional plates is eliminated.



Continuous pressure plate mounted 0.95 mm length plate

[Eugene B]

Interesting. It looks a lot like the 1/32" (0.8 mm) linen phenolic that I bought from McMaster (8474k101). Maybe I'll have to give it a try this morning.

Eugene

[Jean-François Talbot]

A few people in the ord bot community have started to use ceramic to replace the glass. I wonder how strong the bond is.

I'll try ceramic if kapton and abs juice doesn't suit my needs.

Jeff

[hellphish]

The whole point of glass was to provide an ultra-flat surface. People still used blue or kapton tape. It wasn't until later people got ballsy and attempted printing directly onto the glass.

[BigDan]

looks same, but much cheaper :)

0.8 is to thin for abs but for pla fine. 

could you post your experiece with it ?

is there also a thicker sheet in this shop? 

greetings

[Matt Turner]

Here's the link, Dan: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3609/=lzw7xs
McMaster doesn't ship overseas, though. 

You should be able to find some from your local industrial supplier of choice.  The material is phenolic, but the common brand name is Garolite.  I think it's pretty similar to the G-10/FR-4 material for PCBs.