How to fix extruding the wrong way ?

[ChrisHS]

[After filament loaded & warming up for PLA completed]

I use the controller->Prepare->Move Axis->1mm->Extruder->Rotate Encoder

I get extrusion with negative values & retraction with positive.

Pronterface->Extrude 5mm retracts

Printing a gcode file retracts

Seems backwards to me.

My A1 came pre-wired & the extruder motor only fits one way so I don't think I've miss-assembled it. 

Anyone know if it is something I can correct by settings or will I have to swap a pair of wires (stepper coil pair) on the electronics ?

[hellphish]

You can simply unplug the motor from the RAMPS board and flip the polarity. You can also invert the axis in firmware but that might have other ramifications. Be sure there is no power to the board when you unplug/plug in steppers.

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[ChrisHS]

OK thanks I'll give it a try & report back :-)

[Josh S]

Mine was flopped as well.  There is a four prong plug that is flipped.  I think it is on E0, but don't hold me to that.  

[Jonathan Shapiro]

 It seems like this sort of reversed installation is easily prevented. Is there some reason that a keyed connector could not have been used here?

[Josh S]

It is plugged into the ramps board, which doesn't have any keyed connectors.  Arduinos don't either.  It just isn't something you see on them based on the hobbyist nature of them.  

[UKchris]

Hi Folks,

My extruder was plugged in the wrong way around too.  But more importantly - so was the Z axis.  I only tell you this because I reversed the plug next to the Z Pololu (unlike the X and Y plugs, the Z has two - next to each other).  It has two plugs so that you can plug in two Z steppers - in parallel.  This has disadvantages - which I won't go into now.  So, there was only one plug, so I assumed it was wired in series, so I reversed it and tried again.  WARNING - one axis went up - whilst the other went down!  Luckily, I hadn't yet tightened the X carriage, so no harm done.  Traced the wiring and it seems they are using the second extruder Pololu for the second stepper - so you need to reverse that plug too.  Just to be clear; the Z steppers are not wired in series, each stepper is driven independently (max power) via two Polulus (Z & second extruder)  It's not a big hassle to reverse them  - just 10 mins (lots of diagrams and piccies on Wiki).  But I would recommend driving the Z only a small distance when first switching on, just to confirm proper operation.  It's pretty simple to get at the underside of the A1 - just secure the boro and rotate it 90 degs anti-clockwise.

Having said that - I have the A1 building BIG prototypes and they are stunning.

Regards

[Rick Zehr]

It could also have been prevented with a decent set of (overdue) Instructions!

On Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:59:10 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Shapiro wrote:

[John D]

Hate to say it but it's probably as easy to fix in firmware as it is by re-wiring....  And interesting that Ezra saw the need to use two drivers for Z - implys  he's running the motors harder that normal...

[Cozmic Ray]

The RAMPS board I use has two sets on pins for stepper connection and drive the two stepper motors on
the z-axis on an Ordbot Hardron nicely.   Using the second extruder stepper drive is odd.  Big change to
Marlin firmware and possibility of off timing between two stepper drivers.
RAMPS z driver has plenty of drive to run two steppers.

The KEY is WIRE COLOR  ---- four wire colors from stepper motor to driver.
Keep the colors lined up you should be fine.
But without wiring diagram / photo this may not be possible.

Please  turn OFF all power and unplug USB before fiddling with stepper driver wiring / connections.
Don't let the smoke out.

[UKchris]

John,

Agreed, but I've no Idea where to look for the Marlin for this beastie - any ideas anyone?

Regards

[Jonathan Shapiro]

I seem to recall a discussion on IRC about it over on #smoothieware. I was asking whether smoothie had enough controllers to handle dual-head if it needed to use two drivers for the two Z motors. The response was that the drivers on the smoothie have more than enough current for a single driver to step two motors. I took this to imply that RAMPS did not.

Mind you, I've no idea if that's correct. More a matter of passing along what I was told in case it sheds some light here.

[Alastair Seggie]

Shap

Some of us have come from the Mendel max  groups and we mostly (not all) run our mm's on Ramps & pololu drivers. 

Both z steppers are on one driver output.  The z is not too critical as you are normally just lifting it a small amount then staying there and the torque needed to hold it in one place is small as is the torque needed lift the x axis assembly. Mostly due to the pitch of

 the screw. RAMPS handles these demands  fine on the normal low voltage steppers we use.

The current batch of smoothie boards only have 4 drivers so you don't have spare to drive 2 independent Z motors plus X Y and E. I think what the smoothie guys were saying is because of the driver package and the monolithic design that it can drive the steppers at 1.8A  where as a standard pololu will only dissipate enough heat to drive at 1.25A before the thermal cut out kicks in. So given the same steppers in series or parallel smoothie can drive more current into the steppers with out the thermal cut out becoming a nuisance.

Al

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[John D]

Hey Chris - here ya go.  These are generic values I use for my config, so probably are not right for an A1...

#define INVERT_X_DIR true    // for Mendel set to false, for Orca set to true
#define INVERT_Y_DIR false    // for Mendel set to true, for Orca set to false
#define INVERT_Z_DIR true     // for Mendel set to false, for Orca set to true
#define INVERT_E0_DIR false   // for direct drive extruder v9 set to true, for geared extruder set to false
#define INVERT_E1_DIR false    // for direct drive extruder v9 set to true, for geared extruder set to false
#define INVERT_E2_DIR false   // for direct drive extruder v9 set to true, for geared extruder set to false

[John D]

Hey Jonathan, I've been running dual Z motors on RAMPS and Pololus with no issues.  Smoothie only has 4 drivers, so there's really no choice - you have to double up your Z's..

[UKchris]

John,

Appreciate it - but I was after the whole of Marlin - so I can configure and upload.

Anybody got one?

Regards

[John D]

No, and I've asked a couple of times.  I do *not* like the idea of not having a "factory" config for my 'bot, and I think I ASSuMEd that a reference configuration would be included in the documentation...  There's been a lot of silence lately from our friends at TL....

I personally run Repetier Firmware on my printers - not opposed to Marlin, but I like some of the integration features of using both Repetier Host and Firmware.  I don't expect to have to re-invent the wheel.....

[temo]

Hello

 

Me too, I really need this(all marlin config files) to get on!

 

Terje

[Bravin Neff]

For what its worth, my extruder was also plugged in backwards. Someone earlier mentioned he believed it was the E0 port the extruder is plugged into: this is correct. If you see the word "MOTOR" on the connector, facing outwards (as in easily visible), then it is backwards. Turning this around made my extruder run correctly.

[Glenn Beer]

Wasn't there another post about the extruder plastic being made left handed? With the extruder motor on the right, it doesn't crash into the x-motor, And the extrusion direction would be correct.

PS My extruder motor was reversed for having the motor on the right of the extruder.
Different pics on the TL web show it both ways.

[hellphish]

What settings are you all looking for that you can't find on the LCD panel?

--

[Mike Dalbey]

Sorry I need a picture.

Does this look right?  To me MOTOR is facing in. E0 is the upper left.

[John D]

Use the wire colors, not the labels.  I've bought about 20 sets of the same electronics, and the silkscreen side is not consistent - but the wire colors are consistent.  That said, it looks like they are using custom connectors (the one's with the yellow wire) that are not part of the "standard" RAMPS1.4 bundle.....

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Does anybody know if the Red=Vpos, Black=ground convention is observed with this wiring? Since some of these connectors don't have any black wires, I suspect it is not...

[John D]

Jon - I'm trying to think of which of the RAMPS connectors polarity actually matters - off the top of my head..

1] Input Voltage - Yes,
2] Output Voltage Hotend -no
3] Output Voltage Heat Bed - no
4] Endstops - no
5] Thermisters - no
6] Motors - no, as long as coils are wired as pairs.

I feel like I'm missing a connection, but I can't think of what it is?  Extruder Fan?  Polarity would matter, but I've not seen a schematic, so can't say how it's wired....

[Jonathan Shapiro]

Fan polarity definitely matters. You won't damage the fan motor, but it will spin the wrong way if you get the polarity flipped.

Heaters may or may not matter depending on how any protective circuits operate. Not sure if that is relevant in this design.

[John D]

Since we've not seen schematics for the heaters, you guess is as good as mine - but in general with resistive heaters polarity is irrelevant.....

[Cozmic Ray]

Does this RAMPS 1.4 wiring diagram help?

http://reprap.org/wiki/RAMPS_1.4#Wiring

[Glenn Beer]

I think the fans are connected directly to one of the powersupplies.

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:52:43 PM UTC-8, John D wrote:

Jon - I'm trying to think of which of the RAMPS connectors polarity actually matters - off the top of my head..

[James Adams]

If anyone still needs it here is my complete Marlin that I've been running. http://sprng.me/hl6nl 

It has my tuned PID values, bot dimensions, and everything you should need. Just upload it using Arduino.

James

[UKchris]

James,

You are very kind.  You must have configured the second extruder pins to drive the second Z-stepper - where is this done?

Regards

[James Adams]

That is an option in the configuration_adv.h file. It's called something Z_Dual_Stepper_Drivers

Also, my Extruder motor wiring was setup for having the motor on the left side of the carriage whereas my carriage has the motor on the right. So instead of unplugging the wiring, I adjusted this in firmware.
This was done by changing Invert_E0_Direction to false in the configuration.h file. Changing this to true will change it back.

Hope this helps,
Let me know if I can do anything else.

James

[UKchris]

James,

You're a star Sir - thank you.  Looking at your workshop and the amount of 'bots' in it ...and your knowledgeable, helpful disposition - I'm guessing you're going to be kind of popular around here.

Thanks again.

[UKchris]

James,

OK I looked there and found this:

#define Z_DUAL_STEPPER_DRIVERS

#ifdef Z_DUAL_STEPPER_DRIVERS

  #undef EXTRUDERS

  #define EXTRUDERS 1

#endif

Does the " #define EXTRUDERS 1" tell it to route a copy of the information sent to the Z circuitry, to Extruder #1 too (where Extruder #0 is the filament extruder)?

Well you did say "Let me know if I can do anything else", you may come to regret that ;)

Regards

[James Adams]

I definitely cannot take all of the credit for this config file. I got it from the IRC from a kind sir whose name escapes me ATM who got it from Ravix I presume. I've just made some modifications for my needs.

That's not quite what that code does :)

What that's doing is if you told it above that you have 2 extruders but then you go and tell it you want to use 2 stepper drivers for driving the z axis, it won't listen to your Jedi mind tricks and instead will tell itself that it could only possibly have 1 Extruder if you're using the spare driver for the z axis.

James

[Mike Dalbey]

I confirmed that the photo of the extruder plug is correct. This is how mine came from TL. Future assemblers be sure to check this while you install the LCD panel or you may need to go back in. All other connector orientations are correct also.

I used pronterface to turn on  the extruder heater and jogged the extruder stepper.  

[UKchris]

James,

Thanks again - I suspected all along that there are Jedi mind tricks in there.  Have now started the slow arm-swing (horizontal, with three fingers extended) in the hope of effecting change.  It hasn't happened yet, but I've got all day.

Thanks some more.

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

Actually guys, stepper drivers were never EVER meant to run two
stepper motors at the same time. The fact that it works is mere
coincidence and is a massive hack. Go ask any electgrical engineer if
running two steopoer motors off one driver is a good idea and get back
to me.

There is ZERO custom code in the marlin firmware we ship with the
Aluminatus and you can grab the tarball on the Aluminatus thingiverse
page. We have only altered the Configuration.h file and the file that
lets us set the atring that gets displayed on the LCD panel so it sys
"Aluminatus"

Running the z steppers on separate ste drivers is a new feature of
marlin HEAD added by the author as a way around the massive hack of
running two motyors in paralell.

When you run two steppers ibn paralell off one pololu you effectively
get half of their rated torque and speed.

When you enable thew use E1 as second Z step driver in recent marlin
firmwares you get back the half of the torque and power that running
in paralell robs you of.

We run the Z steppers on separate step drivers because it is proper
engineering technique and running two off one driver is a hack that
works by coincidence. So this is an upgrade and gives you back the
full torque of your z axis steppers.

Both stepper drivers are still run off the exact same step and dir
signal so there is no more chance of them ghetting out of sybnc then
there is when you ruin them in paralell off one driver.

So feel free to run two motors off one driver if you like but realize
you are robbing yourself of half the torque and half the speed your Z
axis could have by doing so. Plus any EE or CNC machinist will turn
their nose up at you if they see you running two motors off one
driver.

Just saying... ;)

Sometimes a little google and homework helps people learn why thingas
are done a certain way without assuming I hacked the firmware to do
iut this way. The old way is actually *wrong* and two drivers for two
motors is actually *correct* ;)


Ezra

On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Cozmic Ray <cozm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The RAMPS board I use has two sets on pins for stepper connection and drive
> the two stepper motors on
> the z-axis on an Ordbot Hardron nicely. Using the second extruder stepper
> drive is odd. Big change to
> Marlin firmware and possibility of off timing between two stepper drivers.
> RAMPS z driver has plenty of drive to run two steppers.
>
> The KEY is WIRE COLOR ---- four wire colors from stepper motor to driver.
> Keep the colors lined up you should be fine.
> But without wiring diagram / photo this may not be possible.
>
> Please turn OFF all power and unplug USB before fiddling with stepper
> driver wiring / connections.
> Don't let the smoke out.
>
>
> On Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:04:21 AM UTC-5, UKchris wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> My extruder was plugged in the wrong way around too. But more importantly
>> - so was the Z axis. I only tell you this because I reversed the plug next
>> to the Z Pololu (unlike the X and Y plugs, the Z has two - next to each
>> other). It has two plugs so that you can plug in two Z steppers - in
>> parallel. This has disadvantages - which I won't go into now. So, there
>> was only one plug, so I assumed it was wired in series, so I reversed it and
>> tried again. WARNING - one axis went up - whilst the other went down!
>> Luckily, I hadn't yet tightened the X carriage, so no harm done. Traced the
>> wiring and it seems they are using the second extruder Pololu for the second
>> stepper - so you need to reverse that plug too. Just to be clear; the Z
>> steppers are not wired in series, each stepper is driven independently (max
>> power) via two Polulus (Z & second extruder) It's not a big hassle to
>> reverse them - just 10 mins (lots of diagrams and piccies on Wiki). But I
>> would recommend driving the Z only a small distance when first switching on,
>> just to confirm proper operation. It's pretty simple to get at the
>> underside of the A1 - just secure the boro and rotate it 90 degs
>> anti-clockwise.
>>
>> Having said that - I have the A1 building BIG prototypes and they are
>> stunning.
>>
>> Regards

[J S]

I'm still not seeing a good solution to this... Finally got my motor hobb and the filament goes in reverse from what repetier says. What's the actual solution? Guess I'll just try reversing the motor polarity?

[Sean Mitchell]

It depends on how you want to attack the problem.

You can change it in firmware, look in Configuration.h for:

#define INVERT_E0_DIR false

and change it to 

#define INVERT_E0_DIR true

(it might be the other way, you just need to make it "true" or "false", whatever isn't stated there currently)

If you aren't a software person and the firmware update scares you (it shouldn't, very easy and no risk), you can (with everything unplugged) go and flip the extruder wire around.

Both are valid solutions, and one isn't really better than the other (unless the plugs can only be inserted one way, which would invalidate the plug swap method).  

I would go the firmware route, as the wires are well hidden under the frame.

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:19 PM, J S <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm still not seeing a good solution to this... Finally got my motor hobb and the filament goes in reverse from what repetier says. What's the actual solution? Guess I'll just try reversing the motor polarity?

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--

========
Sean Mitchell

echo "zvgp...@tznvy.pbz" | tr '[a-m][n-z][A-M][N-Z]' '[n-z][a-m][N-Z][A-M]'

[Sean Mitchell]

It also just occurred to me this might be one of the things fixed in the most recent firmware.  We don't actually know what the value is on your machine currently and if it was fixed.

In this case I would recommend you update to the latest firmware available from trinity, and if it still moves backwards then change the value as I described before.

It would suck if your machine has "true", the latest firmware that you get has been corrected to be "false", you then change that to "true" as per the instructions and upload having a net result of still a backwards running extruder.

[J S]

I only got the firmware working last night, so I am assuming it is up to date... I'm trying to configure all my settings and really not quite getting it. 

Repetier host is connecting, manual commands work, extruder runs backwards. So I'm trying to figure out all this (I'm in the IRC channel right now too).

[Sean Mitchell]

Did you get your firmware from trinity labs?  If so it is the marlin firmware which can be used with repetier host.  I just want to make sure you are not using repetier firmware with repetier host (which is quite a bit of work changing, so I don't think you have done this)

The firmware settings are nowhere in your host software.  They are in the Arduino program as described in the doc 

I'm headed to bed in about 15 minutes, do you have the IRC info?

My settings were describing Marlin Firmware.   If you're actually using Repetier firmware (not just repetierhost, repetier firmware too), then you need to change

#define EXT0_INVERSE true

to 

#define EXT0_INVERSE false

or vice versa.

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:35 PM, J S <jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I only got the firmware working last night, so I am assuming it is up to date... I'm trying to configure all my settings and really not quite getting it. 

Repetier host is connecting, manual commands work, extruder runs backwards. So I'm trying to figure out all this (I'm in the IRC channel right now too).

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[BusyBotz]

I just did this on my A1. I recommend the firmware option, because eventually you will want to modify the firmware. Better to bite the bullet now and learn how, rather than trying to play catchup later.

The bird's eye view of the steps:

1. Go to http://arduino.cc/en/Main/Software and download the Arduino IDE software for your OS.  I have used version 1.0.3 on OS X and Windows 7 without issue

2. Go to http://docs.trinitylabs.com/

Download http://docs.trinitylabs.com/Taurino%20aluminatus-windows-usb-driver.RAR 

Download http://docs.trinitylabs.com/Aluminatus%201.0.1/Marlin-1.0.1-v1.zip

Read http://docs.trinitylabs.com/updating_firmware.pdf

**3. Install Arduino. In Windows, go to the Device Manager and update the driver for the Tuarino with the driver from step 2. Check the COM port (mine was COM 18).

4. Unzip Marlin. 

5. Launch Arduino IDE, then open Marlin.PDE (.INO? sorry going from memory)

6. Look at the row of tabs, find configuration.h and select it.

7. Change the value for E0_DIR as Sean said (either to true or false, the opposite as it is already set).

8. Look at language.h tab and change the 'Aluminatus' to your name, or whatever you would like to see on the LCD.

9. Save your changes in the File menu.

10. Click Upload arrow in Arduino IDE. The firmware should upload, and you will see your new name on the LCD as confirmation. The A1 does not have to be powered on, the LCD panel should receive power from the USB connection.

**Set Arduino software to use your COM port. Connect USB cable from PC to the RAMPS board from the bottom side of the A1.

I hope that helps, I typed it from memory. Someone correct me if I missed something.

-Mitch

[Rick Zehr]

Don't overlook that if you change the firmware, you will have to remember to do so any time in the future you need to update it again. It's a potential maintenance issue. 

But do check the current firmware setting before anything else. 

[Sean Mitchell]

Yes I forgot about that.

It's a good idea to save a copy of your Configuration.h (and possibly Configuration_adv.h, languages.h if you change stuff there).  With new versions you can restore your configs and things should work (unless of course new features are added, at which time you will have to add the feature configs to your configuration.h.  I haven't had this happen yet though, so either it is due to happen anytime now, or it's a sign it never happens)

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[J S]

Thanks Busy!... I'm doing that right now. Didn't find the language tab but I got that uploaded with those great steps!

Now just to spend more time configuring and wondering why its saying I'm hitting limits when I'm not and other misc things...

[BusyBotz]

Great! Marlin has a lot of tabs, too many to show on most displays. There is a little arrow on the right end of the tabs, which pulls up a list of tabs. If you still can't see it, try bumping up the display resolution. Not the best solution, but it works.

-Mitch

[J S]

I'm at 1600 res, and the list still goes off the screen! I'll worry about that later, still trying to configure my A1.

I'm having problems because it keeps running me off the side... I'm messing around by centering it all, then putting -100 to 100 for X/Y. But first time I tried just with default it ran everything off the side of the Y and did Z down a bunch to crunch the Z motor/screw interface and wouldn't stop as I frantically hit kill! Sooooo... freaked out a bit and trying it slowly with my hand on the off button lol.

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

JS-

The real solution if your extruder is running backwards or if any of the stepper motors is running backwards for that matter is to first power down the machine and unplug it.  Then tilt it so you can access the RAMPS electronics underneath in the front right of the machine. You will need to find the 4 pin headr wire connected to the "E0" stepper driver and carefully unplug it and flip it 180degrees and plug it back in. Make sure you do not miss any pins when plugging it back in. Flipp[ing the stepper motor wires like this will make it run the opposite direction so you can plug back in, power up and you will have the extruder running in the proper direction.

Cheers-
Ezra

[Alastair Seggie]

+1 on The physical change.

--

[Glenn Beer]

I like the physical change too, but it's just not convenient to do on a stock T1.

The last way to fix it is to get a LH extruder body. 

[dy...@oatmeal.org]

Mine was running backwards as well. I was just happy to see it move under its own power. Flipped the connector and printed a 20mm cube. The connector had the retention clip side facing out.

[J S]

SystemsGuy's solution is the easiest I think - just a quick firmware change to tell it to run in the other direction and viola! Plus if I flip my motor around I can quickly change it back.