FW: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Church Street North to NC 150

[Myatt, Christy]

Calling all cyclists – we need your help!!!  See the email below from Mayor Perkins regarding the options regarding the widening of these roads.  As he and others continue to review these options, it is clear they will need public support. At a minimum, I suggest the following:

 

1.       We line up Robbie and others to come speak to the GVC and/or BIG group in January or Feb at the latest to let us know how we can assist – John Hepburn and others can coordinate which group and which meeting

2.      We contact the local media to do a public interest story on Ross (assuming he and his family consent) and outline the problems with these roads – perhaps Dale, Watts, etc could help on this

 

I am sure others have ideas and suggest we discuss these ideas at the next GVC meeting.

 

Christy

 

From: Robbie Perkins [mailto:RPer...@naipt.com]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 9:28 AM
To: Myatt, Christy
Subject: FW: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Chruch Street North to NC 150

 

Let’s start getting the public support on this.

 

 

Robbie Perkins, CCIM 
President

101 W Friendly Avenue
Suite 601
Greensboro NC 27401
www.naipt.com

tel         336 358 3219
fax       336 373 0260
rper...@naipt.com

 

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From: Robbie Perkins
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 9:27 AM
To: 'Meyer, Tyler'; Fox, Mike S
Cc: Fischer, Adam; Mike Mills (mmi...@ncdot.gov); Holland, Peggy
Subject: RE: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Chruch Street North to NC 150

 

I believe the increased level of interest in bicycling and the dramatically increased traffic along the more popular routes along Lake Brandt Road and North Church Street justify immediate action from a safety standpoint.  We have all heard of a number of accidents and I am sure there are many more that are unreported.  I would be willing to move this program forward immediately based on safety issues.  Let’s take a shot at shortening the time frame.

 

I am sure we can garner significant public support for the improvements.

 

 

Robbie Perkins, CCIM 
President

101 W Friendly Avenue
Suite 601
Greensboro NC 27401
www.naipt.com

tel         336 358 3219
fax       336 373 0260
rper...@naipt.com

 

Click Here To Sign Up For Our Email List

Build on the power of our network.™

NAI Global is one of the world's leading providers of commercial real estate services.  NAI manages a network with 5,000 professionals and 350 offices in 55+ countries worldwide.  We bring together people and resources wherever needed to deliver outstanding results for our clients and complete over $45 billion in transactions annually. Our clients come to us for our deep local knowledge. They build their businesses on the power of our global managed network.  Building on the power of our network.

 

Per NC Real Estate Law, we ask you to review "Working with Real Estate Agents", or if this is a lease transaction, "Working with Real Estate Agents ([Lease Transaction]".  After you have reviewed the applicable publication, please schedule a meeting with us to discuss the contents of the publication.

 

From: Meyer, Tyler [mailto:Tyler...@greensboro-nc.gov]
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 4:32 PM
To: Robbie Perkins; Fox, Mike S
Cc: Fischer, Adam; Mike Mills (mmi...@ncdot.gov); Holland, Peggy
Subject: FW: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Chruch Street North to NC 150

 

BiPed recommends adding shoulders to these roadways as a high priority  BiPed recommends adding wider shoulders generally along much of the county’s roadway system, but these roadways were flagged for special emphasis based on demand and public feedback.   There are several possible routes to making such improvements.  However getting them done will be a challenge as explained below.  Most likely NCDOT would have to take the projects on, but there are other ways it could be done. Here are the ways such a project could be handled:

 

Minor upgrade during resurfacing

NCDOT will, when possible during resurfacing, add a foot or two when roadside conditions including ditch lines permit.  In fact they already added a foot or so along this section of Church using that method.  However while this brings some benefits especially in curves, it’s generally not enough to benefit bicyclists very much: they need four feet, or three feet in a pinch, to make much of a difference.  To get that kind of space generally requires right of way acquisition, ditch relocation and grading.  In other words it typically requires a TIP type of project. 

 

TIP modernization project

One route to create a TIP projects of that kind would to go through SPOT under the “modernization” category.  That category is competitive, in that it is only really eligible for STP-any area funds.  However it is one credible route to pursue.  Basically such projects have to compete against all other non NHS, non-interstate routes in the state for STP-any area funds, along with most of the local widening priorities around the state. NCDOT is prepared to implement and pay the 20% match for projects selected under this category, which can be a big advantage.   To follow this route, will require waiting until SPOT 3.0 rolls around.

 

STP DA

The other route to a TIP project would be to pursue STP DA funds.  This would require a local match.  The NCDOT might agree to implement such a project on behalf of the local governments.  Otherwise a local government would have to be the sponsor, handling design, right of way, and construction.  This would require intergovernmental coordination since the City, the County, and for Lake Brandt the Town of Summerfield are connected.  This could conceivably get started sooner, though the local arrangements would have to be figured out first.

 

Local Project

A local government would have to be the sponsor, handling design, right of way, and construction.  This would require intergovernmental coordination since the City, the County, and for Lake Brandt the Town of Summerfield are connected. 

 

Local/Division Hybrid

If a local government did a design and bought the right of way, the Division might be able to shoulder widening / ditch relocation improvements using its discretionary Small Urban funds awarded by a board member.  This would take some time but probably less than a TIP project.   This would have to be discussed with the Division on the front end.  Small Urban funds cannot be used for right of way.

 

Small Urban / Secondary Road Paving Hybrid

The Division could conceivably develop such a project by combining these sources.   Secondary Paving funds can go towards right of way and construction.  I believe the legislature has broadened to uses to which those funds can be put, so I think it might be a possibility.  That program has to be presented to and agreed to by the County Commissioners.  So getting County support would be key.  The Division would have to confirm it was an option, too given program requirements and program balances

 

Conclusion

There are a range of options.  The default option, if nothing happens in the mean time, would be to add the projects and other modernizations to the 2035 LRTP update and then pursue funding under SPOT 3.0 and the FY 2016-2022 TIP.  However, please let me know if you are interested in pursuing any of the other options before then.

 

In the short term GDOT and the Division are planning trail crossing signage improvements to enhance motorist awareness of bicyclists on both of these roadways as well as at other roadway crossings.  While that would not have addressed the fact situation in the recent accident, they are something beneficial that can be done in the short term. 

 

Staff will be studying roadway modernization needs more closely in the BiPed Update and the LRTP update, so we can bring the TAC an update for discussion early next year to address this concern.  Please let me know if you have feedback, questions, or directions at this time.

 

Tyler Meyer, AICP

Transportation Planning Division Manager

Greensboro Department of Transportation

P. O. Box 3136

Greensboro, NC 27402-3136

tel:  (336) 373-2254

fax: (336) 412-6171

 

 

 

From: Robbie Perkins [mailto:RPer...@naipt.com]
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 5:15 PM
To: Meyer, Tyler
Cc: Fox Michael
Subject: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Chruch Street North to NC 150

 

 

The latest accident has brought forth several requests for shoulders along Lake Brandt Road and Church Street from up to NC 150.  Is this something in the bi-ped plan and if it is not, how is this process started?

 

Robbie Perkins, CCIM 
President

101 W Friendly Avenue
Suite 601
Greensboro NC 27401
www.naipt.com

tel         336 358 3219
fax       336 373 0260
rper...@naipt.com

 

Click Here To Sign Up For Our Email List

Build on the power of our network.™

NAI Global is one of the world's leading providers of commercial real estate services.  NAI manages a network with 5,000 professionals and 350 offices in 55+ countries worldwide.  We bring together people and resources wherever needed to deliver outstanding results for our clients and complete over $45 billion in transactions annually. Our clients come to us for our deep local knowledge. They build their businesses on the power of our global managed network.  Building on the power of our network.

 

Per NC Real Estate Law, we ask you to review "Working with Real Estate Agents", or if this is a lease transaction, "Working with Real Estate Agents ([Lease Transaction]".  After you have reviewed the applicable publication, please schedule a meeting with us to discuss the contents of the publication.

 

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[Myatt, Christy]

Calling all cyclists – we need your help!!!  See the email below from Mayor Perkins regarding the options regarding the widening of these roads.  As he and others continue to review these options, it is clear they will need public support. At a minimum, I suggest the following:

 

1.       We line up Robbie and others to come speak to the GVC and/or BIG group in January or Feb at the latest to let us know how we can assist – John Hepburn and others can coordinate which group and which meeting

2.      We contact the local media to do a public interest story on Ross (assuming he and his family consent) and outline the problems with these roads – perhaps Dale, Watts, etc could help on this

 

I am sure others have ideas and suggest we discuss these ideas at the next GVC meeting.

 

Christy Myatt

[Dave Holland]

Shoulders are not a safety facility for cyclists. In NC the shoulder
is not for vehicular travel. The purpose of a shoulder is to make the
roadway last longer. Like hugging the edge riding the shoulder invites
closer passing at higher speeds and increases the likelihood of right
hooks. There is also the problem of reduced visibility to motorists
due to the cyclists blending into the landscape and being out of the
motorists immediate sightline.

[Chris Elder]

Not only that, but road debris tends to accumulate outside the white painted line, making the shoulder unsuitable for skinny, high-pressure bicycle tires.

I always ride just inside the travel lane rather than on the shoulder because, inevitably, there is some obstruction on the shoulder which would cause me to swerve back and forth into the travel lane. If you give up the travel lane, eventually you'll have to take it back, and not always in advantageous traffic conditions. Better to hold one consistent, predictable line.

Chris Elder

[James Allen]

The majority of the time, I would wholeheartedly agree with Chris and Dave. For a road like Lake Brandt however; cyclists need to pay very close attention to their surroundings and the dynamics of the landscape. Where roads are rolling and curvy, it creates a situation that is even more perilous than most riding conditions. While I will be the first to advocate using as much lane as is afforded to me by the law, I am also keenly interested in my personal safety and riding as many years as I can. Preparing the shoulder to be used for cyclists just makes sense when/where it can be utilized to increase the margin of safety. 

James

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[Dave Holland]

I don't believe this is a situation where preparing the shoulder for
use by cyclists is going to increase the margin of safety. Having a
paved shoulder as a run-off area may be an advantage - as long as it
doesn't entice a speeding motorist to use it to hug the inside of a
curve. The disadvantages always seem to outweigh any advantage in most
situations.

On Dec 17, 9:15 am, James Allen <600ridgerun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The majority of the time, I would wholeheartedly agree with Chris and Dave.
> For a road like Lake Brandt however; cyclists need to pay very close
> attention to their surroundings and the dynamics of the landscape. Where
> roads are rolling and curvy, it creates a situation that is even more
> perilous than most riding conditions. While I will be the first to advocate
> using as much lane as is afforded to me by the law, I am also keenly
> interested in my personal safety and riding as many years as I can.
> Preparing the shoulder to be used for cyclists just makes sense when/where
> it can be utilized to increase the margin of safety.
>
> James
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 8:43 AM, Chris Elder <crow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Not only that, but road debris tends to accumulate outside the white
> > painted line, making the shoulder unsuitable for skinny, high-pressure
> > bicycle tires.
>
> > I always ride just inside the travel lane rather than on the shoulder
> > because, inevitably, there is some obstruction on the shoulder which would
> > cause me to swerve back and forth into the travel lane. If you give up the
> > travel lane, eventually you'll have to take it back, and not always in
> > advantageous traffic conditions. Better to hold one consistent, predictable
> > line.
>
> > Chris Elder
>

[John Wrenn]

It would be nice if they could make a shoulder like the ones they have on highway 101 in California.   I couldn't believe the number of cyclists touring on that road which is about like an interstate but with very wide shoulders.   Still I imaging it is a little bit scary with cars, not to mention tractor trailers, whizzing by at 65-70 mph.

[James Allen]

Well, rather than continue informing everyone of what should not be done, let's hear your solution. The sight lines on Lake Brandt Rd. are not going to magically straighten out on their own.

James

[John Wrenn]

Share the road sign every 1/2 mile or so on the stretch between 150 and Air Harbour  with a few on the more northern stretches as well.   Frequent reminders can't hurt.

[Keith Wilson]

maybe get the sheriff's office or NC Highway Patrol to park a car out that way.  MAYBE, it would scare the drivers into slowing down.

---

Subject: RE: [Triad Cycling] Re: FW: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Church Street North to NC 150
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:46:37 -0500
From: jwr...@allianceurology.com
To: 600ridg...@gmail.com; itsas...@gmail.com
CC: triadc...@googlegroups.com

[Allan Goldfarb]

great work- Hopefully we could come up with some suggestions on how to improve not only Lake Brandt but other roads.

--

[jbla...@yahoo.com]

I'd like to put in a word for wider lanes (as wide as if they had a real bike lane but without the specific bike lane) or even odd numbers of lanes (3 in this case, as roads with a mostly unused turn lane seem to cause the least stress for those using different modes of transport). 

If full wide lanes can't be achieved, widen the roads on significant uphill portions, where the difference in speed for human powered and fossil fueled vehicles increases dramatically, and where human powered transportationists may be struggling and thus exhibiting somewhat erratic form. 

Favorite example: widen the right side lane going south on Church Street from the lake (or at least from the base of the last hill) to the traffic light at Air Harbor Road. Climbing that hill is a great place to repeatedly understand that a sign does not make Greensboro a bicycle friendly city. 

Give cyclists a space to move right without leaving the roadway and crossing the white line into the "marbles." 

Give motorists a chance to ease into the more traffic light dense part of Greensboro. (It seems to me that more problems occur on the edges of the traffic light dense areas, where people are coming from the country and have not encountered many traffic lights, so they are still expecting clear roads with high speeds.)

There are a multitude of places where 3 feet of extra width in the uphill side of the lane would greatly reduce motorist confusion or anger. We are to share the roads and we must care about our interactions with

I am less a fan of bike lanes (just my uninformed opinion but bike lanes seem to create the impression we have to be there only). 

Wider lanes and lower speed limits give a clue. So does some law enforcement presence on these roads. 

As development rushes northward, we need to provide for recreation INSIDE Guilford County, or we'll lose the homeowner tax base (again in my opinion). 

1. Air Harbor

2. Church Street

3. Lake Brandt

4. A 0.2 mile connector between Strawberry Road and Hamburg Mill (yes more ambitious but would greatly increase the options for connecting routes on either side of US220 and increase the possibilities of safe and useful, human powered transportation and recreational access to the rail trail). 

5. Wide lanes through the extent of Old Battleground through the Department of interior National Military Park so faster riders can safely ride the city roads through the park instead of on the Greenway among walkers and runners. 

---

From: Allan Goldfarb <ahgo...@uncg.edu>
To: CMy...@nexsenpruet.com
Cc: "triadc...@googlegroups.com" <triadc...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Triad Cycling] FW: Shoulders on Lake Brandt Road and Church Street North to NC 150

[Dave Holland]

No matter what the sight lines are its people out-driving the sight
distance that create the problem. The only solution I know for that is
to teach people to drive before you give them a license, and enforce
the laws.Wide lanes, 14+ feet, would be a good improvement on Lake
Brandt and Church. That is very expensive and would take years to
achieve, as you can see from Tyler Meyer’s response.Contacting NCDOT
Division 7 directly and asking for their expertise would be a good
place to proceed. There may be other highway improvements less work
and cost intensive that could be put in place faster. In the Lake
Brandt damn area reducing the speed limit to 40 and eliminating
passing zones would be along those lines of improvements. Currently
there is a 50MPH speed limit sign just before you crest the hill and
bare left to enter the damn area when headed south, not a good time to
tell people to speed up. That should be replaced with a 40MPH sign
preceded with a Reduce Speed Ahead sign.Another problem in the area is
the lack of anything to indicate recreational use. Aside from some
gravel areas beside the road it looks like open country road. I know
the City has trailhead signs planned, but there could be more signs
and other appropriate street furniture to make the area look like what
it is. The City could put up a nice Lake Brandt Watershed Park sign
near the right of way.That’s just off the top of my head, I would have
to spend some time on this and I would like to hear what the local
NCDOT engineer has to say.