T&T: Paravanes

[Margery B. Griffith via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

Ian, why do you want paravanes installed? You state that you have a 43’ trawler but do not identify the make nor the material…fiberglas (how thick) or steel. Where do you cruise? My first trawler, a Nordhavn named First Forty, had vanes. As you may know, the N 4O was designed to go around the world, great publicity by the way. Do you intend to do blue water cruising? IF you intend to stick to doing the Great Loop they are useless as the waters are too shallow. I learned to handle them in the Chesapeake under the guidance of a real professional captain (ex Merchant Marine now tugboat captain). They are really treacherous suckers!

Sounds as if you might be interested because they ‘sound good’ and are very ‘macho looking’. IF so think again! They will take up your top deck, are you willing to sacrifice that space? They require a very strong stable mast not just any vertical ‘pole’. They are dangerous and must have an engineer to design to determine if the boat is strong enough because they put a very heavy load on the boat.

I ‘practiced’ with my captain and one other male crewman in calm water, on the Chesapeake and it was still difficult. Retrieving them is the treacherous part! They are heavy and become a flying steel monster quickly!

We used them only once, again in the Chesapeake when it was very rough. I handled the helm while the Captain and crew went above to deploy them. Capt. Bobby was unperturbed, but the crewman was not comfortable! They did smoothe the ride some AND slow us down. On that same trip, it was really rough and the trip across ? bay (south of Coinjack) was scary but the bay was way to shallow to use the vanes and the course too narrow to ‘tack’ for more comfort.

When I sold the boat the new owner immediately removed the vanes and installed stabilizers making his wife very happy! So be sure you really NEED vanes and don’t just want them for macho reasons or just another ‘toy’. IF you still can’t resist, make sure your boat is strong enough!

Margery Griffith






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[PRINTMORE1--- via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

To Ian:

I totally agree with Margery's comments. Our boat was factory equipped with
flopper stoppers(paravanes) way back in 1979. Steel beams were built in
the deck, sides and top. I would think it would be a major expense to do so
after the boat is built. Margery points out the stresses quite well. I
hesitate to say this but you would be better off getting a vessel equipped with
paravanes designed by proper engineering rather than modifying your present
vessel.

Like, Margery, we too removed all this stuff in 1997 when we stopped doing
real ocean cruising. It look quite awhile to get used to our now denuded
boat.

Regards

Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE

[Lee A Licata via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

Boy oh boy Margery’s email hit the subject square on its nose.

In theory, they are a worthy addition as they require no electricity, no hydraulics, and no holes under the water line.

In practice, they work well when you set them on day 1, retrieve day 20, and have had no real rough gales between those two days.

Retrieval even for a well engineered system is fraught with dangers almost indescribable if there is any weather at all.

Experts tell me that when the weather gets real bad, they need to come up, or they will be ripped from your boat.

These “experts” are the local fishing boat owners that use them in semi-calm weather to make it slightly safer on deck for their men to work.

Each of these boat carry a crew of 7-12 men so there is plenty of help around to retrieve them if the weather turns nasty.

A husband -wife team recovering these in any but calm weather probably will lead to injury, and potentially divorce.

I am told that the Alaska fishing boats that have them cannot use them in very rough weather. I cannot confirm.

The “fish” themselves need to run in water deeper that your draft, with water beneath the fish. Shallow water ops with these things deployed just in not in the cards.

If one fish comes out and the other side digs in, magnified rolls occur so that is why it is essential that these fish remain in the water when in use.

LeeZe has the (steel) hull and deck joints strengthen where they would be attached IF we decide to go with them. Admiral thought we might need so deferred one cruising year for her to decide. She changed her mind.

The use of a steadying sail has proven to be more than enough to keep the rolls at bay, but even that has to come in when we get gale+ winds.

So, practice for a year, see if there is a need, and then, if there is a need, get back to the list.

We thought we needed them, but we were wrong.

I struggle to see the up side, now that I have been at this for a while.

Lee

Izmir, Turkey
http://whereisleeze.blogspot.com

PS The ULTIMATE fix is a roll tank but that requires to be part of initial design.

[John & Gayle via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

On 1/14/2016 12:34 PM, Lee A Licata via Trawlers-and-Trawlering wrote:
> Boy oh boy Margery’s email hit the subject square on its nose.
>
>
>
>
>

I've been following this list for about ten years and find the
collective wisdom to be amazing. But in that time I have never seen so
much misinformation as this topic as generated. It's obvious to me that
the contributers have no experience in using paravanes that are designed
for cruising boats. I don't know how you can run a slow boat in ocean
conditions without stabilization of one type or another.
In my experience of over 30k miles, ranging from AK to ME, passive
stabilizers have allowed me to travel safely in conditions that would
otherwise would be untenable. I'm a gray haired guy and I can easily
retrieve them when necessary by turning into the waves, and
deteriorating conditions make me appreciate them even more.
I previously contacted the original poster Ian and shared my experience
with him, so I felt that comment was needed to correct this misinformation.
People often ask me about the system and I always tell them 'I wouldn't
leave home without them'. Compared to active stabilizers, they work at
any speed and also at anchor. They do cost about about 1/3 kt, the same
as active fins, but without the additional fuel burn. I've never had one
come out of the water underway, but they can skip out of the water when
you toss them out. They head away from the boat, skip out, dive under,
and go right back to work. Occasionally I'll just use one on the
windward side, just because I'm lazy. If there was amplified roll I
never would have considered it again. The only change that I've made
over the years is to move to Amsteel instead of the traditional chain.
Oh, and in full disclosure I must admit that I designed my system
myself, without the benefit of a professional engineering education.

John
Sirens Call

[Robert Phillips via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

One consideration is the proliferation of Sargassum weed in the Atlantic and the projection that it will be increasing as the ocean warms. Two summers ago I brought a boat down from Florida and expected to catch fish every day as I had on other deliveries, however we never did get to troll as there was too much weed. I readily admit that I have zero experience with paravanes, but it seems like dragging a couple of fish in weed is going to entail "cleaning" them frequently.

I did research paravanes thoroughly, including having an engineer determine if we could fit them, when looking at stabilization systems, and rejected them in favour of an anti-roll tank. My tank has been on the boat for fifteen years, it has no moving parts other than 300 gallons of water, has required zero maintenance and works 100% of the time, regardless of forward motion. As it is twenty feet off the water it doesn't catch weed.

I discovered a professor of naval architecture and mathematics at Memorial University in Newfoundland, who designed my tank, from an article in the journal of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers concerning paravanes and roll tanks. He had been asked to analyze the sinking of a fishing trawler, Straits Pride II, for the Department of Transport in Canada, which was pulled over when they lost one fish, an event which happened quite quickly according to a survivor. Peaked my interest and I was sold after a day with him and his towing tank in Newfoundland. The engineering is complex; the result simple, especially for a pleasure vessel which isn't fishing in the North Atlantic in the winter!

Dave Cooper, Swan Song, also went this route and has been all over the Caribbean and out to Hawaii.

I agree with John on "Sirens Call" when he states, "In my experience of over 30k miles, ranging from AK to ME, passive

stabilizers have allowed me to travel safely in conditions that would

otherwise would be untenable" However, I will argue that my system is by far more "passive" than his and much more user friendly; 24/7/365 always working, nothing to wear out and the only time I am on deck with it is when I am sitting on it at my upper helm as it is also my helm seat.

Bob Phillips, Another Asylum
Tortola, BVI


Robert Phillips
Doyle Sailmakers BVI, Ltd.
b...@doylecaribbean.com
Mobile 284-541-2206
Office 284-494-2569

[PRINTMORE1--- via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

To John:

You wrote:


"It's obvious to me that

the contributers have no experience in using paravanes that are designed

for cruising boats. "

Lee can speak for himself. In my case I have USED the paravanes
(flopperstoppers for 20 years
and never had a problem deploying and retrieving.
The point is that Ian, the poster, wishes to upgrade his boat with
paravanes and we all
pointed out that installing this equipement needs careful consideration.

Just to clear the air on this one.

Regards

Leonard Stern, INDIFFERENCE

[LAL via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

Leonard,

Thanks for your support. I was going to let John's comment pass.

I have helped two boaters with them move their boats over some distance.
One had a terrible installation and one had a great one. I also talked with
the locals here that use them to fish and make their living doing that.

I also had a fellow husband and wife team that had them when they came into
the Med from way out east, and deployed them once they left the Med heading
back stateside. His installation was pretty good and yet, it detracted from
the lines of the boat. He also had a story or two about reviving them when
the weather went south.

But just because I did not choose to install them does not mean that I had
not researched them to death, grabbed some experience when I could, and had
some in depth discussions with owners and users.

This forum only works because those that have questions ask them, then wait
for the replies, and then evaluate those replies in total, maybe even
giving some weight to those that offer some contrary thinking.

If we, the questioner, only evaluated those replies from actual users, and
never bother to read from users that considered the question and chose to
forgo the installation, that is of course their right, though they might be
missing out on a whole body of evidence as to why not to do something.

There are many topics on this forum I have no clue about and yet still read
and take in. I can add nothing to the conversation so I chose not to.

I have had a great number of lessons taught to me (some times by the school
of hard knocks) as as built LeeZe and used her in the last 5 years here in
the Med. A reader with a question that I can add some value to can take my
reply and throw it into the trash can if they so want. I still sleep well
at night.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:47 PM, PRINTMORE1wrote:

> To John: You wrote: "It's obvious to me that the contributers have no

> experience in using paravanes that are designed for cruising boats. "…

[Lee A. Licata via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

[Milt Baker via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

Ian,

When I emailed you my Paravanes 101 tutorial I made the assumption that you
had read the paravane section in the fourth edition of *Voyaging Under
Power*. After reading your latest post, I think you must have missed that
essential resource. So let me recommend chapter 8, Stabilizing Agains
Rolling, in VUP. Author Denis Umstot has done over 55,000-miles including
two Atlantic crossings in his Knight & Carver 52 Teka using paravanes, and
he certainly knows and writes articulately about their pros and cons. The
chapter has all the diagrams and pictures you're missing. Denis also deals
with "passive antiroll tanks" that Bob Phillips and Dave Cooper have used
with such great success.

BTW, something I found of vital importance in making paravanes easy to
launch and retrieve for the five or six thousand miles I used them was
making it a two-person operation, with both crew members standing next to
one another in the cockpit or on the after deck--close enough to speak and
be heard easily. One person controls the line that actually lowers each
paravane into the water on launch and hauls if back in for retrieval, and
the other guides each paravane (and its control line) throughout the
process--and tries to keep the paravane on its pendulum from dinging the
hull or swim platform. That two-person process worked extremely well for
Judy and me, and we never had any difficulty launching or retrieving the
paravanes. If one is using electric winches as we did, having the winch
controls right there in the cockpit or on the after deck is of vital
importance. To reiterate, for easy launching and retrieving, the process
involves (a) having two people doing the job, (b) having them on the same
plane so they're both seeing the same things at the same time, and (c)
having control of the winches right there. One person can do the job in
calm weather but having two makes it oh-so-much easier.

For the group: As I told Ian in an email, I found paravanes a great backup
system to my active fin stabilizers and was very happy to have them when
one of my stabilizers failed midway across the Atlantic. The paravanes
played a huge role in keeping us comfortable all the way across the
Atlantic including a serious gale and big seas off Cabo San Antonio as we
approached the Strait of Gibraltar. But for my money paravanes involve too
much rigging, and the hassle of launching and retrieving them argues
against them for short coastal hops.

If anyone else here on T&T would like a copy of my Paravanes 101 tutorial,
just shoot me an email (subject line "Paravanes 101") asking for it:
miltbaker47 (at) gmail.com

Milt Baker, Nordhavn 47 Bluewater

[John & Gayle via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

On 1/17/2016 11:24 AM, Milt Baker via Trawlers-and-Trawlering wrote:

<But for my money paravanes involve too much rigging, and the hassle of
launching and retrieving them argues against them for short coastal hops.>

Milt and others,

It doesn't necessarily have to be this difficult. If I had to use
electric winches (along with their maintenance), and take a person away
from the helm to accomplish the task, I would share the same sentiment.
I've a similar size boat, with paravane gear modeled after the Nordhavn
system. But no active stabilizer system, therefore no other options.
But like you I would want a backup paravane system for an ocean
crossing. You knew the wisdom of that choice. I'm a worrier, and to me
loosing the stabilizers at sea is almost up there with fire and collision.
But I think I would worry less about paravanes than fins groaning going
limit to limit and watching oil temperature.

If I'm anticipating needing the gear I'll put the poles down before
getting underway. When the wife gives me the stern face I know it's
time, and simply lift the bird from its bracket on the stern and drop it
into water. It will head away from the boat until its extreme, hop out
of the water, dive right back in and go to work. Then I'll adjust the
retrieval line, which is attached to the trailing line or chain just
above the waters surface. Ditto the other side and the work is done.
Occasionally I'll only put a bird on the windward side, in hope of
saving a little speed.
To raise the gear my wife will stop the boat and keep it in a
comfortable direction. I'll haul in the retrieval line until I can
reach the trailing line and walk to the stern. Then it's just a matter
of lifting the bird out of the water and placing it in its bracket. Tidy
up the retrieval lines and done until we reach protected waters where
I'll raise the poles. Here it's best to turn the boat into the wind so
the running rigging (Amsteel) won't hang on the spreader.
What makes this system so easy to deploy and retrieve is that the bird
is fabricated from aluminum and uses Amsteel instead of chain.
A large size Kolstrand bird (300 sq. in.) weighs 48 lbs.. Connect that
to 18' of 1/4" ss chain, weighing about 12 lbs. with a swivel, and you
have 60 lbs. to haul through the water, and break the suction at the
surface to lift. No easy task, hence the need for the winches. The same
size bird in aluminum weighs <14 lbs and the 1/4" Amsteel weighs very
little. Only 25% of the dead weight of the steel/chain system. Even a
girlyman can pick these up, just be patient and wait for the boat to
stop. (Hope I haven't offended anyone)
Granted the Amsteel will produce a harmonic that is quite noticeable
outside the boat, but inside it's ok. I just put on some classical
music. It's very simple to swap the line for the chain and if I was
doing an extended passage I probably would.
As far as the mention of extra rigging, in new construction by self
builders, I would say that the entire system,which would include the
boom to haul the tender (to either side), would be of comparable cost to
a nice davit. And then you've a place for the dry exhaust, radar,
hailer, spreader lights etc. And I think it looks pretty sexy too.

John
Sirens Call

[Mary via Trawlers-and-Trawlering]

We installed Paravanes on our DF 41 when we were in Mazatlan several years ago. In a nutshell, they are simple, work well, and you use them only when you need them. If we thought we were going to use the fish, we'd put the arms down before we left the anchorage and deploy the fish when/if needed.

One thing I learned the hard way is to run the fish 10-12 feet under the surface.

If money is no object, get the naiads or equivilent. For the rest of us Paravanes, aka flopper stoppers, are the best bet...Dick

Heinsite DF 43
Lying Charleston Maritime Center


The five stages of life: Sailboats, Motorboats, Motor Homes, Nursing Home, Funeral Home.



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