T&T: Iveco Vs Deere
Robert STRAGHAN
engine in place of the previously standard 135 Hp, turbo, 4.5 L x 4 cyl,
John Deere 4045 TFM.
Intrestingly the Lugger 4.5 L is now a 15K option.
Not only is the NEF series new and I can find little hard info. Fiat is no
slouch in the engine business and while common in Europe, not so common in
North Amercia. I do see a US Distributor in NJ who claims 90% parts pick
from stock, and a dealer in BC. Not so great marine engine distribution
worldwide.
I like the idea of a mechanical pump, non-electronic, natural engine, and in
fact this is what I wanted from the beginning on my Diesel Duck. Deere no
longer make a natural 6 and the natural 4 is not powerful enough, so turbo
Deere is was/is. The Iveco fills this need for simplicity.
I can find no fuel usage specs for the Iveco, and these days this is an
important factor for me.
Any empirical experience with Iveco, and technical comments?
Robert Straghan
Awaiting DD 462 Mo Chuisle
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Mike Maurice
> Seahorse is now offering a 123 Hp, natural, 6.7 L x 6 cyl, Iveco NEF 150
> engine in place of the previously standard 135 Hp, turbo, 4.5 L x 4 cyl,
> John Deere 4045 TFM.
> Intrestingly the Lugger 4.5 L is now a 15K option.
>
> Not only is the NEF series new and I can find little hard info. Fiat is no
> slouch in the engine business and while common in Europe, not so common in
> North Amercia. I do see a US Distributor in NJ who claims 90% parts pick
> from stock, and a dealer in BC. Not so great marine engine distribution
> worldwide.
>
> I like the idea of a mechanical pump, non-electronic, natural engine, and in
> fact this is what I wanted from the beginning on my Diesel Duck. Deere no
> longer make a natural 6 and the natural 4 is not powerful enough, so turbo
> Deere is was/is. The Iveco fills this need for simplicity.
>
> I can find no fuel usage specs for the Iveco, and these days this is an
> important factor for me.
>
> Any empirical experience with Iveco, and technical comments?
>
> Robert Straghan
> Awaiting DD 462 Mo Chuisle
>
I don't think Bill Kimley at Seahorse would pick a losing engine for his
boats. But, this is a hard choice, made harder by the lack of Non
Turboed Engines to choose from, in today's world. Considering that parts
are not as readily available, here is my take on the situation.
On the plus side the NEF is a 6 cylinder, versus 4. With more
displacement it should hold up better and I like natural engines for
long range boats.
For the $15K difference in price you can afford to buy a full complement
of spare parts and tools and still be money ahead.
Things to consider on the downside. I don't think the difference in HP
or fuel consumption means anything important. I would take a good look
at the way in which the engine is built, the suitability to add
alternators and other pumps and accessories. Also, which engine has the
fewest hoses and the best integration of tubes and components and the
ease of routine or other maintenance. Cast components instead of stamped
metal ones and compare the 2 engines on the basis of the list above.
This should give you a few more things to think about.
Good luck.
Mike
John Baker
Anyway, I tell y'all all of this to prepare for the next chapter. I will most likely be in the market for the next year(I hope that is the absolute maximum time frame) and will be looking torwards the list for help in finding the right boat and the right equipment. So be forewarned...:-) ....and thanks in advance.
Trawler on,
John
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Trainma...@aol.com
That's like Mike Tyson vs Pee wee Herman Go with the Deere
Brian Palmetto FL
Ron Rogers
models has a similar engine in it.
Ron Rogers
Robert STRAGHAN
Seahorse DD, and at the time of my contract the standard engine was the
Deere 4045 TFM. I have not checked with Bill if I even have the option of
changing to Iveco at this point in time, or if there is any cost
differential. There would apear the chance to change, and I need to think
about the choice.
When I decided to buy a DD the only engine was the 4045 TFM 135 Hp Deere. Up
until now I had convinced myself to be happy with this choice, even though I
prefer simplicity.
The choice now is the simple Iveco as standard, and the Deere based Lugger
L1064A 115 Hp at an additional 15K USD.
I am leaning toward the Iveco for displacement, and simplicity. I was simply
wondering about experience of others with this engine.
Note that the duty rating for the specified Deere and specified Iveco is
different with Iveco "D" model at full load 100% of the time. Deere M-3
rating as specified is full load 35% of the time.
Iveco specs are confusing and the 25% full load C rating shows the same Hp
and torque curves as 100% load D - how can this be?
I do not get it about fuel consumption, and Iveco does not give any data. It
does appear that the Iveco spins faster.
Is power output a direct relationship between air and fuel burned, so that
the displacement difference is more or less balanced at equal Hp output? Or
does bigger displacement simply consume more fuel?
Robert
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
Tom Ferri
I have a John Deere 6068T in my Roughwater 37, The PO is Bob Sentor as
referred to by Peter Pisciotta. Bob removed and the Perkins and repowered with
the John Deere. I have no experience with the IVECO but the John Deere has
been flawless in operation. Access to the fuel and oil filters , seawater pump
and other maintenance points is excellent. This is the prior model that is
turbocharged but does not have the electron engine controls. You would not go
wrong with the John Deere.
Tom Ferri
Fairbanks, AK
Arild Jensen
> From: Tom Ferri
> I have a John Deere 6068T This is the prior model that is
> turbocharged but does not have the electronic engine controls. You
> would not go wrong with the John Deere.
REPLY
Yesterday I visited a Fleming 55 which had been repowered with new
Catepillar electronic engines.
The owner- a retired maintenance/service Manager with a Cat dealer told me
that if his alterantorss died his engien would quit. Seems the normal and
recommended setup is to power the engine controls fromthe start battery.
But the cat engine is also supplied with a Delco alternator that has a
circuit breaker in the alternator output.
If that beraker pops, then you lose battery charging and poof goes the
engine.
Previously I had been told that Detroit had some kind of get home feature
wherby the engine could still run at reduced power, if the controller died.
CAt does not have any such feature.
So that begs the question. Just how safe and reliable is a trawler that is
equipped with an electronic engine?
The new J-D 6068T does have electronic controls. what provision does it have
for a get home method?
regards
Arild
Gil Johnson
I have the new John Deere 6068 and my only complaint is that their marine dealer network is well distributed.
Gil
John Ford
http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/infocenter/infoevents/mar_powersource/marinepowersource2002_vol1.pdf
On page 9 right column it says..
Editor: The reliability of electronics is a concern for many vessel operators. What makes this system different then from the rest.
Leeper: First the ECU, which is the heart of the system is a John Deere manufactured product. Secondly, if there is a problem with the ECU, it can be bypassed. It's a "come home" feature that gives the engine enough speed to get to port.
I didn't see anything about if the bypass was automatic or not. But I figured I'd email the group with what I found.
John
John Baker
Trawler on,
John
John Ford <john...@mac.com> wrote:
Hey I found this pdf after looking around.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/infocenter/infoevents/mar_powersource/marinepowersource2002_vol1.pdf
On page 9 right column it says..
Editor: The reliability of electronics is a concern for many vessel operators. What makes this system different then from the rest.
Leeper: First the ECU, which is the heart of the system is a John Deere manufactured product. Secondly, if there is a problem with the ECU, it can be bypassed. It's a "come home" feature that gives the engine enough speed to get to port.
I didn't see anything about if the bypass was automatic or not. But I figured I'd email the group with what I found.
John
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Mark Richter
Do I understand correctly that the Deere and Iveco engines are at base
price, and the Lugger is a $15k option? That would be odd, since the Lugger
uses the Deere block, and cost only $2k more than the Deere in 1996 when I
bought my Deere. If the Iveco is $15k less than the Deere, that would be an
irrestible bargain.
I know little about the Iveco, but can heartily recommend the Deere. I
especially like the twin ballance shafts which cancel most of the inherent
unbalance of a 4-cylinder engine. My 3.9L 80hp (natural) now has 5670 hours
on it, and has had only one failure; a fuel lift pump at about 4500 hours
(part cost $53). Other than that, it's been belts, hoses, thermostat,
impellers, and a rebuild on the raw water pump.
The 4.5L, whether natural or turbo, is the same block with a longer stroke
crank. Nearly all parts are interchangeable. Even the turbo version at 135
or 150 hp is not a highly stressed engine, and should have a long
trouble-free life, as well as being a bit quieter than the natural. These
engines have not yet gone to electronic anything, and will run without
electric power once started. Injection is mechanical. The newer Deere has
corrected two of my minor complaints about my engine. The oil filter is no
longer installed upside-down, making filter changes a bit less messy. The
alternator now uses a flat serpentine belt instead of twin V-belts. These
belts run cooler, last longer, and can easily drive high-output alternators
without excewsive belt tension.
Much as I like natural diesels, I think I would pick the Deere 4.5L 135 hp
were I in your shoes. John Deere is well known to support their engines,
not for decades, but for a lifetime. They have a vast parts and service
network, though you'll probably need this rarely. Let us know what you
decide.
Mark Richter, M.E.
m/v Winnie the Pooh
presently tied up at Waterford, NY
(locks 8 and 9 closed again due to high water)
Trainma...@aol.com
Yesterday I visited a Fleming 55 which had been repowered with new
Catepillar electronic engines.
The owner- a retired maintenance/service Manager with a Cat dealer told me
that if his alterantorss died his engien would quit. Seems the normal and
recommended setup is to power the engine controls fromthe start battery.
But the cat engine is also supplied with a Delco alternator that has a
circuit breaker in the alternator output.
If that beraker pops, then you lose battery charging and poof goes the
engine.
Previously I had been told that Detroit had some kind of get home feature
wherby the engine could still run at reduced power, if the controller died.
CAt does not have any such feature.
So that begs the question. Just how safe and reliable is a trawler that is
equipped with an electronic engine?
The new J-D 6068T does have electronic controls. what provision does it have
for a get home method?
regards
Arild
All this babble about non reliability of electronic engines needs a reality
check. First of all your engine is not going to die if your alternator quits
it's only going to die if your batteries go stone dead. Most mechanical
engines use an electric control to turn on the injection pump that requires power
to run so they will die if your battery goes stone dead also. Considering the
small amount of power required to run the electronics it will take an awfully
long time to kill the battery. I also can't imagine a blue water boat with
only one charging source. Electronic engines do not require electronic
controls all manufactures offer a throttle potentiometer for cable control.
This fear of electronics is the same stuff that we heard about cars 20 years
ago but in fact cars are more reliable perform better and last longer than
they did years ago largely because of electronics. Electronic diesels are
quieter smoother more fuel efficient and produce less emissions than there
predecessors. As of this date my company has installed 116 John Deere 6068TFM since
they switched to electronic so far we have not seen one failure caused by
the electronics. If your looking at powering a blue water boat or any boat and
reliability is a prime concern you would be wise to stay away from the
oddballs with limited service and parts availability and go with one of the more
popular names weather it be electronic or not.
Brian Palmetto FL
Arild Jensen
> From: Trainma...@aol.com
> All this babble about non reliability of electronic engines needs
> a reality > check. First of all your engine is not going to die if your
> alternator quits it's only going to die if your batteries go stone dead.
REPLY
Precisely, which is why the question is not so much babble but a legit
question given that the start battery may not be all that large and it may
also have additionalloads connected.
Time to STOP is a function of battery capacity.
David&Joan
Even though my Yanmar 370 is totally mechanical (no electric fuel pump, a
power to kill shut off, etc.), its throttle and shift are electronic and so
it entirely dependent on battery power. Fortunately the ZF/Mathers control
is powered by a ZF box that sources power from two different sources and
picks the highest voltage. If I had an electronic engine I would do the same
thing, wiring it to the engine start and house batteries. That would give me
as good a reliability as it gets.
David
Arild Jensen
> From: David&Joan
>
> Even though my Yanmar 370 is totally mechanical (no electric fuel pump, a
> power to kill shut off, etc.), its throttle and shift are electronic and
so
> it entirely dependent on battery power. Fortunately the ZF/Mathers control
> is powered by a ZF box that sources power from two different sources and
> picks the highest voltage. If I had an electronic engine I would
> do the same thing, wiring it to the engine start and house batteries. That
> would give me as good a reliability as it gets.
REPLY
Good approach, but!! .... playing devils advocate fro a moment;
what if you also relied on a combiner to charge both house and start bank
from one alternator?
Hypothetical situation on a hypothetical trawler.
Single engine trawler, one high output alternator and a combiner to charge
both start and house.
Boat is primarily a DC vessel and doesn't rely on a genset or big inverter
for normal power.
Vessel has a small dedicated inverter to run a household fridge, and a 20
amp charger to trickle charge the batteries when docked and plugged into
shore power. The rationale being, a 20 Amp charger is less expensive than a
bigger one and will still charge a decent sized house bank overnight when
plugged in for 16 hours.
Fault situation.
While making an extended passage involving ovenight travel along a lee shore
with few sheltering harbors; the one and only alternator dies. The Engine
itself is working perfectly but the peripheral controls, electric fuel pump,
ZF Mathers throttle/shift controller and maybe the electric fuel valve in
the injection pump will die when the DC voltage drops below a given
threshold. This happens at 10 PM and the boat's normal electrical load is
40 -60 amps DC all told. The available battery capacity means the battery
voltage in all banks will drop below critical threshold by 3 AM at the
latest. ( 5 hours run time)
Problem is, you are a minimum of six hours travel from nearest safe haven,
your genset can only provide one third to one half of the required amperage
from the shore power charger, so what can you do?
What design changes do you need to make to the electrical system so that the
above scenario does not leave you adrift without power on a lee shore.
Arild
David&Joan
A simple solution to your fault situation is to buy a bigger shorepower
charger, although I seriously doubt if you will be drawing anywhere near 40
amps in that situation, more like 10 with lights navigation, radar and the
works.
Another solution is two alternators.
David