Questions

[Jim Muchow]

I've been a member of this group for years and never really posted
much, but recently it occurred to me that this might be just the place
to post the questions I have. I have a lot of 'em and this seems like the
perfect place to get answers - knowledgeable English-speaking people
who "heart" Spain as much as - more than - I (we) do. I should probably
warn that I have a lot of questions that range all over the place. I hope
you don't mind.

Question 1. I can go into more details or wordiness, but I'll start out
simple. If you or someone you know speaks a Latin American variation
of Spanish, how is that received in Spain? No "vosotros", "tu" is used in
a traditional way, no "lisped" s-sound, "lo" for "him", etc.

I have a Mexican friend who recently visited Spain and was surprised to
have her Spanish corrected by (relative) strangers. Perhaps this is just the
Andalusian way, but it still seems odd, rude. Actually the term she used was
"arrogante".

What do you think?

Jim Muchow

[Roger Warwick]

Hi Jim,

That is very strange, because there has been a massive influx of South Americans to Spain in the last 10 years or so, and Spaniards are more than used to the many different types of South American accents. If you go on the Metro in Madrid and look around the wagon, you'll almost certainly see that half of your fellow travellers are not Spanish but South Americans, East-Europeans, Chinese, etc.

For non-Spanish speakers, perhaps we should explain that the differences between mainland Spanish (or Castillian) and South American Spanish are more or less equivalent to the differences between American and British English (two nations divided by a common language, as Oscar Wilde once said!). Yes, there are certain words that perhaps won't be understand by a speaker of the other variant of the language, but even these are almost always understood in context.

So it is with "Castellano" and South American Spanish - yes, there are different words for the same thing, and even the same words for different things, yes spoken grammar is different and yes, pronunciation is variable, but mutual comprehension is total.

So, to answer the question in a more direct fashion, I would say that there shouldn't be problems at all for someone who speaks any Latin American variation of Spanish. And much less of course if that person is not a native-speaker him/herself. There are of course rude and arrogante people all of the world, in every country, but I would say that the great majority of Spanish people wouldn't have any problem at all with this.

I'm not sure what you mean by the use of "tu in the traditional way" - can you explain? Spaniards certainly know about the non-use of "vosotros" in some South American countries and "lo" is also used in Spain for him, when it is the direct object pronoun (e.g. Lo conocí hace un año - I met him a year ago), although admittedly not always correctly. Does this answer your question?

Roger.

Jim Muchow

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Travel Spain" group.
To post to this group, send email to trave...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/travelspain?hl=en.

[castaway]

Jim, . I lived in Spain in 1985-86 and later in 1988, and have gone back a few times. In my experience, Spain is the old world, and you'll find a certain amount of snobbery anywhere in Europe that assumes that the older culture is better.  The average person in Spain will not correct your Spanish in an arrogant way, but it happens frequently enough to notice.  I remember meeting many people who would talk about Spanish from Spain being the "best" Spanish spoken; they would seem to congratulate themselves for their open-mindedness when they would point out, for example, that in Latin America, the "best" Spanish is spoken in Colombia (I have no idea why they always said it was Colombia).  The average Spaniard had, when I was there,  regressive opinions about the "value" of  cultures and language, uninformed by modern anthropological or linguistic concepts (linguists  nowadays contantly reaffirm that it's ridiculous to say that one dialect or another is "better" than some other). . I also remember there being a strong instinct among Spaniards to use a parental style when correcting people, often wagging their finger and emitting a strong "tsk tsk tsk" sound when correcting the smallest misconception.  This is something they would readily do with each other, though, not just with foreigners. . For the most part, I don't think that Spaniards are really self-aware when it comes to their national image.    I sometimes felt like they're still bewildered since the losses of 1898, when they lost their status as a colonial European power.  And when I was there, there was vehement arguments attempting to prove they were European (Spain was set to possibly join the European Union) -- as if it were something they felt defensive about.  To many Europeans, note, Africa "begins with the Pyrenees" - meant as an insult against Spain - and to some degree, Spaniards have a complex about this (especially since they preserve "old Europe" better than most of the rest of Europe).  Especially since the civil war and Franco, "what" Spain is is the object of some insecurity, in my opinion. . In my experience, too, while Spaniards can have some of the most natural, spontaneous and relaxed personalities as individuals (which is why I am so darn attracted to them), when they happen to have to present themselves or think of themselves as Spanish nationals per se, they can be nervous and uptight.  Almost without exception, for example, when I've seen Spaniards traveling here in the U.S., they travel in groups and are tense and impenetrable -- unlike tourists I see here (I'm in San Francisco) from any other European country. They tend to talk to each other and not exhibit much openness to all the non-Spaniards around them.  Very provincial. . My experience is you have to be calmly assertive about whatever sort of Spanish you speak.   Let them know that "good" language is language that clearly communicates, period.  Remember that much of their scolding is part of the way they're taught to be - with each other as much as with non-Spaniards.    You'll find that language-savvy Spaniards (for example, students or scholars of filología) will not be arrogant about it, and in fact may even be apologetic about the typical Spanish prejudices in this area.  Spain is a funny mixture of relaxed, sensual, happy-go-lucky, *and* old fashioned uptightness about "proper" language and good manners (which they call, typically, "buena educación"). . Hope this helps.... :-) Tim in Berkeley / San Francisco, Calif.     --- On Tue, 12/27/11, Jim Muchow <jmu...@gmail.com> wrote:

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Travel Spain" group. To post to this group, send email to trave...@googlegroups.com.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Roger Warwick]

Hi Tim,

Thanks, what a great contribution to what is becoming an incredibly interesting thread, and thanks to Jim also for starting things off - hopefully others will also join in.

I really enjoyed reading your post, Tim, but I will have to take issue with a number of points you make, hoping you'll take this in the spirit intended - one of information exchange and vibrant discourse.

While I believe it's possible to identify certain common character traits which are perhaps influenced by the culture or local customs, I think we have to very careful not to generalise too much when speaking about any nationality, but particularly about the Spanish since they seem to be struggling so much themselves to pin down a national identity, due in particular to regionalism and the immense diversity the country offers. Tim calls this insecurity, but when regionalism precludes some extremists from even cheering on their own national sports teams, I think it's more to do with the cultural diversity preventing any national identity being formed.

Spain today compared to 1985 is practically a different country. In 1985 the country was still shaking off the last vestiges of the "transition" period after the death of Franco and his dictatorship just 10 years earlier, and was still isolated in many respects, joining what was then the EEC only the following year. So if we take 1986 as the end of the isolation period, this is 50 years after the start of the Spanish Civil War - half a century is a long time on your own, and any perceived snobbery will surely have been influenced by the country concerning itself almost exclusively with its own affairs during this time. Perhaps this inwards looking perspective is what is perceived as Old World superiority but the New World surely can't throw the first stone here.

Since that time, however, the country has changed at an incredible rate. Greater prosperity means that Spaniards now travel all over the world, and while in general they are not good language learners, they are at least much more aware of foreign cultures and customs. But this lack of a foreign language is definitely a hindrance and I can certainly imagine those nervous, closed groups Tim has seen in San Francisco being caused by the fear of making a linguistic blunder when talking to strangers, rather than any kind of provincialism.

I arrived in Spain in 1988 without a single word of Spanish. So I've been through every stage of the language-learning process, and I can honestly say that not once have I been confronted with an arrogant or snobbish attitude. My Spanish has been corrected along every step of the way, but in an educative manner. And I've heard that tsk sound (to me, it's more a tut) Tim mentions many a time, even using it myself. It's not made in a disapproving manner, but simply as a way of saying "I don't agree", perhaps in a more forceful manner than some English or Americans are comfortable with (I'm English).

Is the Spanish spoken in South America a dialect? A variety yes, but a dialect? I'm not a linguist so I can't say for sure. But in any case we can talk about Spanish being correct or incorrect (and therefore better or worse), because there are national academies who issue norms and regulations governing the use of the language - something that English doesn't have.

Víctor García de la Concha was the Director of the Spanish version of these language academies, La Real Academia Española, between 1998 and 2010 and confirmed this theory that the "best" Spanish is spoken in Colombia, presumably because the Spanish spoken on the street respected these norms and regulations to the largest extent. In Spain, you often hear that the best Spanish is spoken in Valladolid.

An example of incorrect Spanish is "leismo": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C3%ADsmo (in fact, this isn't the best example as apparently the Spanish Academy now permits leismo). The phrase I used in my previous email ("Lo conecí hace un año) may sometimes be heard as "le conecí hace un año". It's understood perfectly by all concerned, but presumably in Colombia and Valladolid they make permitted mistakes like this less frequently, for whatever reason.

So, bearing in mind the above mentioned regional diversity, the opening up to new cultures, the large influx of South Americans in recent years and the mistakes the Spanish themselves make when speaking the language of Cervantes, I find it incredibly strange that a Mexican had her Spanish corrected - perhaps it was some sort of misunderstanding rather than being told her Spanish was incorrect?

Roger.

http://www.GoMadrid.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain...@googlegroups.com.

[Roger Warwick]

Talking about mistakes....

I'm afraid I spelt a word incorrectly not once, but three times! I'm now living in Portugal and my nascent Portuguese was taking over when I wrote "coneci", which can only be Portuñol (neither correct Portuguese nor correct Spanish, but a mixture of both)

The first person past tense of the verb conocer is of course conocí!

Sorry. :-(

[Jim Muchow]

Thanks to Roger and Tim. I'm overwhelmed at the responses.
Since this worked out well beyond my expectations, my thought
was to just sit back, relax, and read the comments (they're all
very interesting). Alas, I was asked a couple of questions that I
should answer, so I'll just pick and choose and respond.

> I'm not sure what you mean by the use of "tu in the traditional way" -
> can you explain?

From Scandinavia to the Mediterranean (with the possible exception
of Germany and friends), the old dichotomy between the formal
"you" and informal "you" is disappearing. In grammar-geek terms,
the formal second person singular/plural is being replaced by the
informal second person singular plural - much like what happened in
English many years ago. The traditional and safest way of explaining
the Spanish formal and informal second person singulars is seen in
this link (not significant except that it's typical).

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/knowing-when-to-use-the-spanish-tu-and-usted.html

Then I found out that many (most?) Spaniards, especially of a younger
vintage rarely use "usted" - in effect, matching my experience from
Scandinavia. The link below is a good example (see the second entry
from Neutre).

http://www.city-data.com/forum/world/172253-usage-tu-versus-usted-3.html

But the third thing I learned in that in many Latin American
cultures "usted" is used in situations that completely contradict
the above. I am referencing the section in the following link on
"tu vs usted", but the whole thing is interesting (ignore that the
author thinks "usted" is a third person pronoun).

http://www.spainexpat.com/spain/information/castillian_spanish/

My original sentence was intended to reference that Spaniards
don't seem to use "usted" much and that Latin American almost
seem to prefer to use it - exaggeration promotes understanding ;-)

... OK, that was one question...

> But this lack of a foreign language is definitely a hindrance and I
> can certainly imagine those nervous, closed groups Tim has
> seen in San Francisco being caused by the fear of making a
> linguistic blunder when talking to strangers, rather than any kind
> of provincialism.

Not really a question to be answered, but something I found
amusing. My son lives in Portugal (during the summer) and one
of his roommates is Spanish. Somehow the topic came up about
foreigners speaking English and I told Carlos that Americans are
complete suckers for foreign accents. Almost any accent, but
especially a Euro one makes many Americans happy to hear.
The two best are the UK or else one from the Mediterranean.

Carlos was having a bit of trouble believing me when my son
walked into the room and so I asked him, what do Americans
think about foreign accents?

Luv 'em, he said.

Spaniards just need to know this.

OK, one more.

> I find it incredibly strange that a Mexican had her Spanish
> corrected - perhaps it was some sort of misunderstanding rather
> than being told her Spanish was incorrect?

Misunderstandings are, of course, always possible. Isabel is a
native Spanish speaker but not particularly expert in her native
language (she can speak it fine, but I don't think she reads it much
beyond gossip magazines, and probably can't/doesn't write much).
My question to her was very specific, how did people in Spain react
to your Spanish? I reported her answer to me. There may be more
to this, but I don't speak Spanish well enough to distinguish or know.

My question to her and ultimately my question here was to
understand the possible reaction of Spaniards to *my* Spanish.
The Spanish I am learning is Latin American, most likely with some
Mexican accent. I just wanted to know what to expect.

I'll shut up for now and return after a bit with something else. Thanks.

[Karen Sanchez]

I love reading this "conversation".  I first visited Spain in 1983. I lived there from 85-88, and since moving back to the US, I've spent part of my year in Spain every year except 2 of them (96 and 98) but some years visited 2x. ( I married a Spaniard).

 

Being both a Spanish learner and teacher, my first thought is that maybe the person in question misunderstood the helpfulness of the interaction.  MANY people go to Spain to learn "castellano", even latin americans. Because of this, many nativos in areas that have large numbers of tourists and foreign students have fallen into the habit of "helping" (ie. correcting) people they come in contact with. My SIL worked in a pastry shop near the center of Salamanca and would tell me about the interactions she had. She always tried to be helpful and respectful while "adjusting" their spanish.

 

Also, it reminds me of the many conversations that she and I have had about the numerous errors that the Spanish make.  Anyone ever wonder about their wording of " son las cuatro y una hora menos en Canarias" ?  That drives my SIL nuts (she insists they have the same number of hours the rest of us in the peninsula have, ha ha).

 

The other thing she reminds me is wrong is the usage of " han habido" but she does point out that it is frequently used by most news anchors.  Does she mean to be snotty when she tells me? No. She is trying to be helpful. And I appreciate that. And if she had tried to help a Latin American try out the castilian Spanish of Salamanca, I hope no one took it the wrong way.

 

Karen

I've been a member of this group for years and never really postedmuch, but recently it occurred to me that this might be just the placeto post the questions I have. I have a lot of 'em and this seems like theperfect place to get answers - knowledgeable English-speaking peoplewho "heart" Spain as much as - more than - I (we) do. I should probablywarn that I have a lot of questions that range all over the place. I hopeyou don't mind.Question 1. I can go into more details or wordiness, but I'll start outsimple. If you or someone you know speaks a Latin American variationof Spanish, how is that received in Spain? No "vosotros", "tu" is used ina traditional way, no "lisped" s-sound, "lo" for "him", etc.I have a Mexican friend who recently visited Spain and was surprised tohave her Spanish corrected by (relative) strangers. Perhaps this is just theAndalusian way, but it still seems odd, rude. Actually the term she used was"arrogante".What do you think?Jim Muchow-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Travel Spain" group.To post to this group, send email to trave...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain+unsub...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/travelspain?hl=en.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Travel Spain" group.To post to this group, send email to trave...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/travelspain?hl=en.

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Travel Spain" group.To post to this group, send email to trave...@googlegroups.com.To unsubscribe from this group, send email to travelspain...@googlegroups.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/travelspain?hl=en.

[Roger Warwick]

Ah, OK, the old tu vs usted dilemma.

To be honest, there are so many exceptions to the situations described in the textbooks, that it's almost easier to just play it by ear. In my opinion, the best rule of thumb is the age one: if you use tu for anybody under 30 and usted for anybody over 50, then you won't go far wrong. You'll just have to deal with the in-between ages and exceptions as best you can. But nobody will mind a non-native making what might be considered the "wrong" choice.

But really, it has so much to do with individual character, upbringing, education, culture, etc. that the only correct way is to adapt to each and every situation.

What I can say, though, is that the usted form is far from disappearing for good. It is certainly used less and less, but many a generation will pass before just the tu form is used, if that ever happens.

It is still used almost exclusively to greet clients by hotel staff, employees in expensive shops, etc., even when those same people out of uniform and in a different context (meeting you in a bar, say), will almost always use tu.

It's difficult, but nobody will mind being called usted, so err on the polite side until you're sure of the specific social situation.

Roger.

[mark]

Hi Roger (et al), enjoying this dialog. I found your reference to “…
the best Spanish is spoken in Valladolid” most interesting. This last
April we were touring the Rioja wine region and stumbled across San
Millán de la Cogolla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Mill
%C3%A1n_de_la_Cogolla). San Millán (declared a world heritage site)
claims to be the birthplace of the Spanish language – and just 200 or
so kilometers from Valladolid.

Also, I agree with you. In my travels round Spain, I too have never
encountered an arrogant or snobbish attitude. Much to the contrary
actually.

Enjoy the new year!

Mark

> >http://groups.google.com/group/travelspain?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Mac]

>
> From Scandinavia to the Mediterranean (with the possible exception
> of Germany and friends), the old dichotomy between the formal
> "you" and informal "you" is disappearing. In grammar-geek terms,
> the formal second person singular/plural is being replaced by the
> informal second person singular plural - much like what happened in
> English many years ago.

Well of course. it's the informal forms which have all but disappeared
in English - thee, thou, which together with 'ye' have all been
replaced by 'you', and preserved in ordinary speech only by the Bible
and Shakespeare. The exceptions are regional, especially Scotland and
the North of England, where 'ye', 'thee' and 'tha', a form of 'thou'
are alive and in everyday use. But to return to Spain, are there
similar regional differences in the use of tu, ustedes, vosotros,
etc? And do Catalan and Galician use them in different ways? I'm
always too busy struggling to keep up with general meaning to even
notice these finer points.

Mac

[Montse Yelamos]

I want to add that Latin America is huge, and for instance, the
Mexican accent is completly different to Argentine accent (by the way,
we love Argentine accent). Anyway. Finally, I agree with Roger about
it was either a misunderstanding or an isolated case.

On Dec 29 2011, 3:09 am, Jim Muchow <jmuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks to Roger and Tim. I'm overwhelmed at the responses.
> Since this worked out well beyond my expectations, my thought
> was to just sit back, relax, and read the comments (they're all
> very interesting). Alas, I was asked a couple of  questions that I
> should answer, so I'll just pick and choose and respond.
>
> > I'm not sure what you mean by the use of "tu in the traditional way" -
> > can you explain?
>
> From Scandinavia to the Mediterranean (with the possible exception
> of Germany and friends), the old dichotomy between the formal
> "you" and informal "you" is disappearing. In grammar-geek terms,
> the formal second person singular/plural is being replaced by the
> informal second person singular plural - much like what happened in
> English many years ago. The traditional and safest way of explaining
> the Spanish formal and informal second person singulars is seen in
> this link (not significant except that it's typical).
>

> http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/knowing-when-to-use-the-spanish...