Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's Transit Request
Jerry Schneider
----------------------------------------------
>Good Response to City's Transit Technology Request for Information
>All Eligible Modes Represented
>
>By Bill Brennan, 1/29/2008 2:52:12 PM
>
>Twelve submittals have been received from
>suppliers of a range of fixed guideway transit
>system vehicles in response to the City and
>County of Honolulu’s Request for Information (RFI).
>
>The RFI is intended to supplement and expand the
>City’s understanding of available fixed guideway
>transit system vehicle technologies that meet
>the City’s requirements for its planned transit
>system. The submittals include all four
>technology options discussed in the City Council Resolution 07-367.
>
>They are “steel wheel on steel rail”, “rubber
>tire on concrete”, “monorail”, and “magnetic
>levitation”. Information received will be
>reviewed and evaluated by a five member
>independent panel which will select the fixed guideway vehicle technology.
>
>“January 24, 2008 was the deadline for
>submissions. The RFI was issued late last year,
>and the following manufacturers or technology
>supplier groups responded,” stated Department of
>Transportation Services Director Wayne Yoshioka:
>
>• Advanced Public Transport Systems, submitted
>rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>• ALSTOM Transport, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>• AnsaldoBreda Transportation, Inc., submitted
>steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>• Bombardier Transportation, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>• Hitachi America, submitted monorail vehicles;
>
>• IHI Corporation, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>• Mitsubishi-Itochu, submitted magnetic levitation vehicles;
>
>• Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>• Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc.,
>submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>• Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc.,
>submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>• Thales, submitted specialized train control systems;
>
>• Translohr, submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete.
>
>Photos of some of the vehicles produced by these
>manufacturers are available at the Honolulu
>High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project website
>at <http://www.honolulutransit.org/>http://www.honolulutransit.org
>“I’m very pleased by the tremendous response
>we’ve received,” said Mayor Mufi Hannemann.
>
>“The interest being expressed by a wide variety
>o f vehicle manufacturers ensures that this will
>result in a rigorous, competitive procurement
>process in the future. I’m confident that
>Honolulu is going to get the technology that
>best meets our needs at an extremely competitive price.”
>
>In accordance with the resolution passed by the
>Honolulu City Council establishing the
>technology selection panel, the transit vehicle
>technology will be selected within 30 days of
>receipt of the RFI submittals. In keeping with
>that time line, the independent technology panel
>is scheduled to make a technology selection by the end of February.
>
>Bill Brennan is a spokesperson for Mayor Mufi Hannemann
>
><http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?5ee1a573-a654-4887-8fbf-4822121f8e12>http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?5ee1a573-a654-4887-8fbf-4822121f8e12
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Jerry Roane
I believe that a silent monorail would fit the vacation setting there.
Jerry Roane
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
We have experienced the same thing working with an airport. They
appeared interested, but when the tender finally came out we a)
initially weren't alerted and b) the tender was geared towards other
technologies. Usually that is a sign that they haven chosen a certain
type of solution already.
I wonder what the basis of the decision will be. If it is costs mainly,
the system with less infrastructure (no rail), is going to have a heck
of an advantage!
Robbert
Jerry Roane schreef:
> The trick is to find out about these things a few days before the
> deadline. Was this announced and I missed it? I met some guys from
> Hawaii at the solar conference and they were very interested but I was
> unaware of this request for bids. I wish I had been given this
> information.
>
> I believe that a silent monorail would fit the vacation setting there.
>
> Jerry Roane
>
> On Jan 29, 2008 10:33 PM, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org
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Walter Brewer
better per unit density than many other cities.
Walt Brewer
>"The interest being expressed by a wide variety
>o f vehicle manufacturers ensures that this will
>result in a rigorous, competitive procurement
>process in the future. I'm confident that
>Honolulu is going to get the technology that
>best meets our needs at an extremely competitive price."
>. Advanced Public Transport Systems, submitted
>rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>. ALSTOM Transport, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>. AnsaldoBreda Transportation, Inc., submitted
>steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>. Bombardier Transportation, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>. Hitachi America, submitted monorail vehicles;
>
>. IHI Corporation, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>. Mitsubishi-Itochu, submitted magnetic levitation vehicles;
>
>. Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>. Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc.,
>submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
>. Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc.,
>submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete;
>
>. Thales, submitted specialized train control systems;
>
>. Translohr, submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete.
DESIDERIO Matthieu
Matthieu DESIDERIO
79 rue Brillat Savarin
75013 Paris, France
Tél. : +33 9 50 14 07 82
Fax : +33 9 55 14 07 82
Cell. FR : +33 6 37 68 47 69
Cell. US : +1 202 286 9101
Visit the Transport Information Group: http://www.matthieudesiderio.com
Subscribe to the Newsletter: TIG-mdesider...@googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.com/group/TIG-mdesiderio
eph
All pictures for the proposal show cattle cars.
F.
>
>
> >* AnsaldoBreda Transportation, Inc., submitted
> >steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
> >* Bombardier Transportation, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
> >* Hitachi America, submitted monorail vehicles;
>
> >* IHI Corporation, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
>
> >* Mitsubishi-Itochu, submitted magnetic levitation vehicles;
>
> >* Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
>
> >* Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc.,
>
>
>
> >* Translohr, submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete.
> >Photos of some of the vehicles produced by these
> >manufacturers are available at the Honolulu
> >High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project website
> >at <http://www.honolulutransit.org/>http://www.honolulutransit.org
> >"I'm very pleased by the tremendous response
> >we've received," said Mayor Mufi Hannemann.
>
> >"The interest being expressed by a wide variety
> >o f vehicle manufacturers ensures that this will
> >result in a rigorous, competitive procurement
> >process in the future. I'm confident that
> >Honolulu is going to get the technology that
> >best meets our needs at an extremely competitive price."
>
> >In accordance with the resolution passed by the
> >Honolulu City Council establishing the
> >technology selection panel, the transit vehicle
> >technology will be selected within 30 days of
> >receipt of the RFI submittals. In keeping with
> >that time line, the independent technology panel
> >is scheduled to make a technology selection by the end of February.
>
> >Bill Brennan is a spokesperson for Mayor Mufi Hannemann
>
> >< /div>
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Michael Weidler
eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why does public transit have to mean MASS transit?
All pictures for the proposal show cattle cars.
F.
DESIDERIO Matthieu
eph
replacing MASS transit with (or using the money for MASS transit for)
PRT-sized vehicles used in a GRT mode as a transition step to full
PRT. Also, in some cases, having a GRT capability will be invaluable,
for example, to manage unexpected traffic until a proper solution is
implemented.
F.
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 10:06 am, Michael Weidler <pstran...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why do you keep insisting on GRT? The "reason" is exactly the same.
>
eph
F.
On Jan 30, 10:22 am, "DESIDERIO Matthieu"
> Please, find the article I wrote about the Honolulu's project, quoting some
> of the things discussed here.
>
> http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?p=76
>
> The article will be published at 6 pm Paris time / 12 pm EST unless you send
> me a note if you do not agree with something in it. Please do not hesitate
> to send me feedback.
>
> Kind regards,
> md/
>
> Cell. FR : +33 6 37 68 47 69
> Cell. US : +1 202 286 9101
>
> Visit the Transport Information Group:http://www.matthieudesiderio.com
DESIDERIO Matthieu
Wed 30 Jan 2008
Translohr: from Clermont Ferrand to Honolulu?
Posted by Matthieu DESIDERIO under finance, infrastructure, passengers, politics, projects, public transport, rail, road, transport (edit this)
Honolulu has a "High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project" and the City & County of Honolulu sent a Request for Information (RFI). Twelve submittals were received from suppliers of fixed guideway transit system vehicles and include all four technology options for evaluation: "steel wheel on steel rail", "rubber tire on concrete", "monorail", and "magnetic levitation".
Among these twelve proposals, I particularly like one for multiple reasons I can not really explain here: Lohr Industrie Translohr rubber tire on concrete, rail-guided, light rail. This system has been implemented in the city of Clermont Ferrand in France (entered operation on October 14, 2006) and chosen also by four other cities: three in Italy (Padua, L'Aquila, and Mestre-Venice) and one in China (Tianjin).
The Translohr is a part of the new generation of light-rail urban tramways. Being a real tool to re-conquer the urban space and to transform the city as well as its use in-depth, it offers a unique ease of urban insertion thanks to its manoeuvrability and its man-sized gauge.
Source: Lohr Industrie website
Twelve submittals, more than one French!
Despite that I am a Translohr fan, I would say that 12 submittals is really good for such a project, and could also be good for French international commercial development, Alstom Transport and Thales being in the game.
Here is the list of all proposals received by the City & County of Honolulu:
- Advanced Public Transport Systems, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
- ALSTOM Transport, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
- AnsaldoBreda Transportation, Inc., submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
- Bombardier Transportation, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
- Hitachi America, submitted monorail vehicles;
- IHI Corporation, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on concrete;
- Mitsubishi-Itochu, submitted magnetic levitation vehicles;
- Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
- Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc., submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
- Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc., submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete;
- Thales, submitted specialized train control systems; and
- Translohr, submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete.
Public transit may not only mean "mass transit"
However, I would like to mention what I read in a Google Group I recently subscribed: Transport Innovators. This group is discussing innovative transport systems (see references below) and posted a message about Honolulu's project.
Definitely, all proposals submitted are only ligh-rail-like products ("cattle cars" as said in the Transport Innovators' messages) and none of them include innovative products such as PRTs or lighter vehicles that could fit more with Honolulu's public transport needs. Indeed, as Mr. Walter Brewer says in the discussion, "the real problem will be getting people to ride".
References
- Press release: Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project, Jan. 29, 2008: here
- Website: Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project: here
- Website: Lohr Industrie, Translohr page: here
- Website: Clermont Ferrand Transit Authority, Tramway's page: here
- Google Group: Transport Innovators: here
Subscribe to the Newsletter: TIG-mdesider...@googlegroups.com
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Michael Weidler
eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think this is a little unfair. I don't promote GRT, I propose
replacing MASS transit with (or using the money for MASS transit for)
PRT-sized vehicles used in a GRT mode as a transition step to full
PRT. Also, in some cases, having a GRT capability will be invaluable,
for example, to manage unexpected traffic until a proper solution is
implemented.
F.
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 10:06 am, Michael Weidler wrote:
> Why do you keep insisting on GRT? The "reason" is exactly the same.
>
eph
should not be construed as representative of the group - far from it!
- :-) I'm specifically looking for a PRT-style system for Ottawa
(Canada) - as a concerned citizen only.
I suggest you wait a bit and see more responses to get a feel of the
group's views (I assure you they vary).
You may use my comments of course, they're what *I* think.
F.
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 10:33 am, "DESIDERIO Matthieu"
> Maybe because not being published, I am probably the only one (admin) to be
> able to access it online... weird... I did not know that.
>
> Here it is anyways:
>
> Wed 30 Jan 2008
> Translohr: from Clermont Ferrand to
> Posted by Matthieu DESIDERIO under
> infrastructure <http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=13>,
> passengers<http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=3>,
> politics <http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=5>,
> projects<http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=6>,
> public transport <http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=61>,
> rail<http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=8>,
> road <http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=9>,
> transport<http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/?cat=19>(edit
> this)<http://www.matthieudesiderio.com/wp-admin/post.php?action=edit&post=76>
> Honolulu has a "High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project" and the City &
> County of Honolulu sent a Request for Information (RFI). Twelve submittals
> were received from suppliers of fixed guideway transit system vehicles and
> include all four technology options for evaluation: "steel wheel on steel
> rail", "rubber tire on concrete", "monorail", and "magnetic levitation".
>
> Among these twelve proposals, I particularly like one for multiple reasons I
> can not really explain here: Lohr Industrie Translohr rubber tire on
> concrete, rail-guided, light rail. This system has been implemented in the
> city of Clermont Ferrand in France (entered operation on October 14, 2006)
> and chosen also by four other cities: three in Italy (Padua, L'Aquila, and
> Mestre-Venice) and one in China (Tianjin).
>
> The Translohr is a part of the new generation of light-rail urban tramways.
> Being a real tool to re-conquer the urban space and to transform the city as
> well as its use in-depth, it offers a unique ease of urban insertion thanks
> to its manoeuvrability and its man-sized gauge.
>
> Twelve submittals, more than one French!
>
> Despite that I am a Translohr fan, I would say that 12 submittals is really
> good for such a project, and could also be good for French international
> commercial development, Alstom Transport and Thales being in the game.
>
> Here is the list of all proposals received by the City & County of Honolulu:
>
> that run on concrete;
> 2. *ALSTOM Transport, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles*;
> 3. AnsaldoBreda Transportation, Inc., submitted steel wheel/steel rail
> vehicles;
> 4. Bombardier Transportation, submitted steel wheel/steel rail
> vehicles;
> 5. Hitachi America, submitted monorail vehicles;
> 6. IHI Corporation, submitted rubber tire vehicles that run on
> concrete;
> 7. Mitsubishi-Itochu, submitted magnetic levitation vehicles;
> 8. Mitsubishi-Sumitomo, submitted steel wheel/steel rail vehicles;
> 9. Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc., submitted steel wheel/steel
> rail vehicles;
> 10. Siemens Transportation Systems, Inc., submitted rubber tired
> 12. *Translohr, submitted rubber tired vehicles that run on concrete*.
> Public transit may not only mean "mass transit"
>
> However, I would like to mention what I read in a Google Group I recently
> subscribed: Transport Innovators. This group is discussing innovative
> transport systems (see references below) and posted a message about
> Honolulu's project.
>
> Definitely, all proposals submitted are only ligh-rail-like products
> ("cattle cars" as said in the Transport Innovators' messages) and none of
> them include innovative products such as PRTs or lighter vehicles that could
> fit more with Honolulu's public transport needs. Indeed, as Mr. Walter
> ride*".
> References
>
> - Press release: Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project, Jan.
> 29, 2008: here<http://www.honolulutransit.org/pdfs/whats_new/RFI%20Release.pdf>
> - Website: Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project:
> here<http://www.honolulutransit.org/>
> - Website: Lohr Industrie, Translohr page:
> here<http://www.lohr.fr/transport-public_gb.htm>
> - Website: Clermont Ferrand Transit Authority, Tramway's page:
> here<http://www.letram-clermontferrand.com/>
> - Google Group: Transport Innovators:
> here<http://groups.google.com/group/transport-innovators/browse_thread/thr...>
>
> read more »
eph
that bus-sized (40 to 120) is MASS transit? By your metric any
vehicle that carries more than one person isn't "personal"? What am I
missing? And I NEVER proposed vehicles holding more than 6 people. I
proposed linking them to get around short headway restriction making
the pphd reasonable to mass transit minded people.
F.
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 10:50 am, Michael Weidler <pstran...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Frank, what is unfair is you continuing to insist that vehicles designed to hold 6+ people is PRT size. While there is certainly no reason that large vehicles can not be used in a "PRT mode", large vehicles are not PRT sized. If you really want to run in a "GRT mode", why not move four people at a time? You are going to have enough difficulty getting four people going to the same place at the same time.
>
>
> I think this is a little unfair. I don't promote GRT, I propose
> replacing MASS transit with (or using the money for MASS transit for)
> PRT-sized vehicles used in a GRT mode as a transition step to full
> PRT. Also, in some cases, having a GRT capability will be invaluable,
> for example, to manage unexpected traffic until a proper solution is
> implemented.
>
Walter Brewer
Andif so how do you accommodate DM?
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's
Transit Request
>
Walter Brewer
vehicles. Have them run through stations like MASS transit?
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's
Transit Request
>
eph
about vehicle size: LRT > BRT > GRT > PRT
The words for all this new stuff either don't exist or aren't well
understood (yet). It's pretty messy. Maybe we could put a lexicon in
the files or pages section of the google group? Or build a wiki page
here: http://www.advancedtransit.net/atrawiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
I put DM into PRT because it's a private car under public system
control (when on the guideway) and family-sized (1 to 4?,5?,6?).
F.
eph
GRT SIZED vehicles (unless 6 person vehicles are considered GRT -
weird). All vehicles are small. What changes is the number of people
per vehicle. In "bus mode" up to 6 people share a single vehicle
instead of using the 5 they would normally occupy.
F.
David Maymudes
same destination to ride together, that's "group rapid transit" rather than
"personal rapid transit", whether the vehicles hold 2 people or 20.
It's nice in principle to think you're saving five trips by putting six
people into a single vehicle, but it changes things a lot--vehicles have to
wait in stations for enough people to show up, passengers have to make
multiple stops to let each other off, the vehicles have to have aisles so
that some people can get off without everybody getting up...
Also, you basically give up the ability to expand your single line system to
a large network, because once you can't just get on an "inbound" train, it
becomes impossible to find groups of six who are going the same way.
So that's why there's such a bright line between GRT and PRT, even GRT with
smallish vehicles.
Your other big problem, of course, is that you're trying to recommend a
system nobody is trying to sell yet. One of the first criteria a city will
apply is availability, so you'll have an easier time (though certainly not
an easy time!) getting ULTra considered than you will a theoretical GRT
system.
-----Original Message-----
From: transport-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of eph
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 8:44 AM
To: transport-innovators
Subject: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's
Transit Request
Ian Ford
hardware and right of way, while GRT and PRT name the service mode. It's
like comparing apples and lunch and noon. Or it's like the Hispanic
white African American Jew - terms that describe language, color,
origin, place of residence, and religion, none of which are mutually
exclusive. Attached is a chart that attempts to tease apart all the
different ways people describe and name transit. Also check out my paper
"Routable Transit Network Design" at advancedtransit.org under Ideas.
Sorry, most of this has been said already but there are new people on
the list.
--
Ian Ford i...@ianford.com 505.246.8490
eph
scenario, people would board the first vehicle to arrive and it would
stop at all the needed stops just like a BRT or LRT would. It's easy
to see that capacity numbers are comparable in this scenario. I'm
specifically talking about my proposal here ( http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
) which replaces an existing busway section (straight line) with a PRT-
type (small vehicle) of system.
I think that once you get past the pphd hurdle, you can start to
realize all the benefits of small vehicles - their flexibility, timely
availability and "personal" nature.
So, by your definitions, I'm proposing a GRT solution for peak hours
using small (less than ~6 people) vehicles and a PRT solution the
rest of the time until a full PRT system can be realized at a later
time.
Availability - ULTra could work, but isn't a complete solution as it
stands. I need the possibility of greater speeds in a (near) future
version to (even consider) selling it. I honestly didn't think there
were so few systems that were ready for prime time. I thought it was
just a question of getting a contract. Something in between is still
missing it seems.
F.
Guala Luca
I think this approach is what made the Morgantown system become so large.
the problem is that the boundary is net. Either it is a PRT or not. To mix things up you have to go to a lot of compromises and the result is hardly optimal.
On the other hand, we are doing something similar for Masdar where the capacity of a pure PRT is not sufficient for peak hour. But there, we know that about 10'000 persons per day (at full development) will come by bus and will go to few destinations. These people can travel on some sort of GRT. I once explained that they were blue collars and service workers, I will not say it again.
cheers, Luca
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di eph
Inviato: mer 30/01/2008 19.33
A: transport-innovators
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's Transit Request
eph
Generally, you can't network route Large Vehicles like those that can
work on rail. You can't have a driver in a PRT system, because there
are too many vehicles, same idea for GRT, so both are generally
automated. Bus loads are too large to route. There are
characteristics that go hand in hand (generally) because of physical
constraints. It's just like when many people compare Jews to Blacks
and Americans to Muslims. They aren't mutually exclusive, but general
enough to convey the intended meaning.
Your "transport taxonomy.pdf" file illustrates nicely the permutations
possible for transportation, but it doesn't fix the "what do you call
permutation X" or "That class of Y" problem. Using 5 or six
qualifiers every time or "S3" doesn't seem to work well.
If there are particular terms or conventions that this list favours,
perhaps a FAQ that gets posted every month (as other groups do) might
be an idea? Then us "newbies" can be referred to the FAQ when some
oft-repeated point needs to be addressed.
F.
> 164KDownload
eph
privacy reasons. Hope you understand. You can use Frank or Fred if
you like, I'll respond. :-)
From what I read of Morgantown, I would say the 5 second headways is
what killed it. Without shorter headways, the number of guideways
needed to move the required number of people exceeded (by a good
margin) the cost of alternate (rail?) solution. So the cautionary
tale doesn't necessarily apply without knowing the real facts.
If you have a 4 person (or whatever) vehicle with pphd numbers that
work, I'll be happy to consider it for my Ottawa proposal.
My proposal (S3) replaces the busway, so using buses for peak hours
isn't possible.
F.
S3 - http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 1:52 pm, "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
> F (hey: do you have a name?),
>
> I think this approach is what made the Morgantown system become so large.
> the problem is that the boundary is net. Either it is a PRT or not. To mix things up you have to go to a lot of compromises and the result is hardly optimal.
> On the other hand, we are doing something similar for Masdar where the capacity of a pure PRT is not sufficient for peak hour. But there, we know that about 10'000 persons per day (at full development) will come by bus and will go to few destinations. These people can travel on some sort of GRT. I once explained that they were blue collars and service workers, I will not say it again.
> cheers, Luca
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di eph
> Inviato: mer 30/01/2008 19.33
> A: transport-innovators
> Cc:
> Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's Transit Request
>
> My argument (to the mass transit minded) is that in a worst case
> scenario, people would board the first vehicle to arrive and it would
> stop at all the needed stops just like a BRT or LRT would. It's easy
> to see that capacity numbers are comparable in this scenario. I'm
> 12KDownload
Guala Luca
I admit I don't know the real facts. They took place long before I ever became aware of PRT. I was just thinking aloud.
I don't have a 4 persons PRT with pphpd that work AND that is immediately implementable. That's why we are considering GRT too. Read the message to the bottom.
cheers,
Luca
eph
F.
On Jan 30, 2:25 pm, "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
> Fred,
> I admit I don't know the real facts. They took place long before I ever became aware of PRT. I was just thinking aloud.
> I don't have a 4 persons PRT with pphpd that work AND that is immediately implementable. That's why we are considering GRT too. Read the message to the bottom.
> cheers,
> Luca
>
> > Yes, I have a name. I don't want it posted on the internet for
> privacy reasons. Hope you understand. You can use Frank or Fred if
> you like, I'll respond. :-)
>
> From what I read of Morgantown, I would say the 5 second headways is
> what killed it. Without shorter headways, the number of guideways
> needed to move the required number of people exceeded (by a good
> margin) the cost of alternate (rail?) solution. So the cautionary
> tale doesn't necessarily apply without knowing the real facts.
>
> If you have a 4 person (or whatever) vehicle with pphd numbers that
> work, I'll be happy to consider it for my Ottawa proposal.
>
> My proposal (S3) replaces the busway, so using buses for peak hours
> isn't possible.
>
> F.
> On Jan 30, 1:52 pm, "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
> > F (hey: do you have a name?),
> >
> > I think this approach is what made the Morgantown system become so large.
> > the problem is that the boundary is net. Either it is a PRT or not. To mix things up you have to go to a lot of compromises and the result is hardly optimal.
> > On the other hand, we are doing something similar for Masdar where the capacity of a pure PRT is not sufficient for peak hour. But there, we know that about 10'000 persons per day (at full development) will come by bus and will go to few destinations. These people can travel on some sort of GRT. I once explained that they were blue collars and service workers, I will not say it again.
> > cheers, Luca
>
> 8KDownload
Walter Brewer
I'm very much in favor of very small cars, like 4 seat, (not to create a new
category!),to provide the on demand non-stop personized transport to the
real destination as do autos preferred by most. But I see what you are tring
to do and that overload "take the existing bus" is not possible in your
case.
But the loading and routing needs careful study as has been discussed
recently. Superimposing what amounts to a scheduled bus line on the PRT
system is the "simple" way out. Are there non-disruptive ways to match
riders and destinations has not been worked out.
eph
results, but I don't have the right statistics available to make a
reasonable simulation. I can't determine the right number of berth
per stations etc...
I figure being able to say "in bus-like mode my system easily meets or
exceeds busway pphd numbers" gets me past the first mass transit
proponent's objection. Then I can show how GRT-mode (dynamic express
service?)makes the system better. Then I can show PRT-mode (personal
service?) makes the it close/better than taxi service and DM (Private
vehicles, personal service?) is better than a car.
Now, the hard part is finding someone willing to build it.
F.
>
> read more »
Kirston Henderson
> If you have a 4 person (or whatever) vehicle with pphd numbers that
> work, I'll be happy to consider it for my Ottawa proposal.
>
> My proposal (S3) replaces the busway, so using buses for peak hours
> isn't possible.
It is possible to install a low-visual cross-section elevated guideway
over the busway?
Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®
Guala Luca
take Vectus for example: their vehicle has 4 seats but enough space in between to accommodate a standard Euro-pallet. The vehicle is 1.6 m high inside, to discourage people from standing. But if you make it 2 m tall and fit smaller seats, it can accommodate up to 12 persons, rather uncomfortably and 8 of them standing. Apart from changing the ceiling height (overall height can remain unaltered by relocating the HVAC) no modification is required. However, if passengers are allowed to stand then accelerations-decelerations will have to be calculated differeently and the GRT will not behave as the PRT requiring slightly higher headways
Inviato: mer 30/01/2008 20.31
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response To City's Transit Request
eph
traffic crosses the busway with bridges across the top. An elevated
guideway would not clear the bridges (without interfering with
buses). Supported, even suspended systems could work, but they would
be at-grade mostly and they would need to fit 4 guideways to a 16'
high by 12' wide area to get the pphd numbers to work. Also, a slim
carrier for small vehicles would be needed for any guideway based
proposal where the combined height of the carrier plus vehicle fit in
the 16x12 area. This is my "Plan B" suggestion found here:
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/.
F.
On Jan 30, 3:49 pm, Kirston Henderson <kirston.hender...@megarail.com>
wrote:
Dennis Manning
"Of greater importance to the U.S. delegation was the positive
economic performance in evidence with Maglev transportation: Due to
its high speeds and reduced costs of operations and maintenance, the
Shanghai Maglev train attracts twice the number of riders needed to
pay its O&M costs. This makes the Shanghai Maglev one of a few - if
not the only - transit project in the world that does not require an
operating subsidy."
I thought the Shanghai maglev was losing at the farebox??? Can anyone shed
some light?
Of course covering capital costs at the farebox is another item.
Dennis
eph
too heavy. I think it's important to be able to carry a small EV in a
pallet mode if a guideway system is proposed. We have large suburbs
that will not be served by a guideway-only proposals.
"Plan B" could work with 4 to 6 passenger vehicles, no coupling.
Guideway based proposals would require vehicle Smal EV carriers(with
weight implications).
F.
"Plan B" - http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
> 7KDownload
Dennis Manning
You should check out performance data on Morgantown GRT. Off the top of my
head:
Vehicle size - 8 seated 12 standing
Headway - 5 minutes scheduled (somewhat shorter during high demand)
Max capacity - 3600 pphpd
Almost never runs in PRT mode even during low demand conditions. Too
expensive to run that size vehicle with only one person aboard.
Dennis
eph
system. Wiki says "heated track was too expensive" operational since
1975 doesn't seem like such a failure...
Again, I'm not considering anything above 6 passenger vehicles
currently.
F.
On Jan 30, 5:00 pm, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>
> You should check out performance data on Morgantown GRT. Off the top of my
> head:
>
> Vehicle size - 8 seated 12 standing
>
> Headway - 5 minutes scheduled (somewhat shorter during high demand)
>
> Max capacity - 3600 pphpd
>
> Almost never runs in PRT mode even during low demand conditions. Too
> expensive to run that size vehicle with only one person aboard.
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eph" <rhapsodi...@yahoo.com>
> To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 1:49 PM
> Subject: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Fwd: [MET_Houston] Honolulu: Good Response
>
> To City's Transit Request
>
> > Hmm, no mention of load capacity (that I found). 12 people might be
> > too heavy. I think it's important to be able to carry a small EV in a
> > pallet mode if a guideway system is proposed. We have large suburbs
> > that will not be served by a guideway-only proposals.
>
> > "Plan B" could work with 4 to 6 passenger vehicles, no coupling.
> > Guideway based proposals would require vehicle Smal EV carriers(with
> > weight implications).
>
> > F.
Tan Lien Chiow
Are you prepared to put in USD300K as investment or loan? We can build and
demonstrate the DM/PRT according to your desired. In fact, your proposed
system is what we have been planning to build.
Tan Lien Chiow
-----Original Message-----
From: transport-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of eph
F.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlajFjN...>Me
ssages
> >> >>>>> |
> >> >>>>>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZWZtYzRk...>Fi
les
> >> >>>>> |
> >> >>>>>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOWJmbm1...>Ph
otos
> >> >>>>> |
> >> >>>>>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbmR1b...>Da
tabase
> >> >>>>> |
> >> >>>>>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnZjbWg1...>Po
lls
> >> >>>>> |
> >> >>>>>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MET_Houston/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZmZoY...>Ca
lendar
> >> >>>>> MARKETPLACE
> >> >>>>>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13rg6nk5q/M=571476.12066680.12490312.1150...>Ea
rn
eph
on a $500 million endeavor, certain deals can be made.
Your website doesn't give many details on your system, in fact, many
pages have "type here" where text should be. Something more
substantial than a website would probably be needed before handing
over $300k. Patents, scale models (or detailed computer models) or
(even better) a demonstration system.
F.
On Jan 30, 6:36 pm, "Tan Lien Chiow" <TanLienCh...@MonicPRT.com>
wrote:
>
> read more »
Kirston Henderson
>
> Ha - yes of course, you're right. I was thinking about the Raytheon
> system. Wiki says "heated track was too expensive" operational since
> 1975 doesn't seem like such a failure...
I would suspect that the the O&M costs of the steam plant and the steam
pipes in the guideway for the Morgantown system would be pretty high in cold
and snowy weather.
Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®
eph
Couldn't they just cover it with greenhouse types of structures?
Probably be cheaper than heating the thing.
I'll reply to your e-mail as soon as it starts working again... sorry.
F.
On Jan 30, 7:19 pm, Kirston Henderson <kirston.hender...@megarail.com>
wrote:
Jack Slade
Yes, I have a name. I don't want it posted on the internet for
privacy reasons. Hope you understand. You can use Frank or Fred if
you like, I'll respond. :-)
From what I read of Morgantown, I would say the 5 second headways is
what killed it. Without shorter headways, the number of guideways
needed to move the required number of people exceeded (by a good
margin) the cost of alternate (rail?) solution. So the cautionary
tale doesn't necessarily apply without knowing the real facts.
If you have a 4 person (or whatever) vehicle with pphd numbers that
work, I'll be happy to consider it for my Ottawa proposal.
My proposal (S3) replaces the busway, so using buses for peak hours
isn't possible.
F.
S3 - http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
eph
Ottawa, though a working system to propose would be nice.
F.
On Jan 30, 8:39 pm, Jack Slade <skytrek_...@rogers.com> wrote:
> Hey, "F" ; You made a mistake in one message, which disclosed your full name. So much fro secrecy.
>
> Morgantown is not PRT, and headway is not 5 seconds. The headway is 5 minuites, or when the vehicle is full, whichever happens first. In busy periods this can be shortened to 2 minuites. It works well because of the captive audience....all passengers have the same destination in the morning, and are coming from there in the afternoon. I think the vehicles carry 15, some standing.
>
> You might think that also applies to Ottawa, but it doesn't, because government buildings are spread out over a much larger area.
>
> Jack Slade
>
>
> Yes, I have a name. I don't want it posted on the internet for
> privacy reasons. Hope you understand. You can use Frank or Fred if
> you like, I'll respond. :-)
>
> From what I read of Morgantown, I would say the 5 second headways is
> what killed it. Without shorter headways, the number of guideways
> needed to move the required number of people exceeded (by a good
> margin) the cost of alternate (rail?) solution. So the cautionary
> tale doesn't necessarily apply without knowing the real facts.
>
> If you have a 4 person (or whatever) vehicle with pphd numbers that
> work, I'll be happy to consider it for my Ottawa proposal.
>
> My proposal (S3) replaces the busway, so using buses for peak hours
> isn't possible.
>
> F.
Tan Lien Chiow
I can spend all my money on an impressive Website but with limited
resources, I would rather work out all the details for a visionary to
bring it to reality.
Luckily, I didn't build my earlier concept model, as my latest approach to
getting the system up is now less costly and more practical with existing
technologies.
There are IP which can be patented but it depends on available funding
before we can procced.
300K actually will be matched by government grants and is for building the
demonstration system. Our National University of Singapore is providing
the space and students for the Proof-Of-Concept. These offers reduce our
cost significantly as we only have to buy 5 EVs which may cost about 100K
and fit the 1 km road with sensors (20K) to provide the guideway for the
automated EVs. There will be at least four stations and are sufficient for
the testing. In fact, the Proof-Of-Concept system can remain functional
and extend out to cover the whole campus.
The EVs will be retrofitted for computer control and the whole system
software can be done in a short time with help from other existing PRT
sources.
If you like we can have a chat over the Skypes. My Skypes Account name is
"LienChiowTan" or email me at TanLie...@MonicPRT.com
Tan Lien Chiow
googlemail
Dennis,
Even more amazing when one considers it stops operating by 21:00 each night
and does not connect to Shanghai's central rail station.
John Evans
Tel. 44 (0) 161 456 4896
Fax. 44 (0) 161 456 8908
Mob. 44 (0) 781 412 3431
googlemail
Talking about Shanghai, I was surprised nobody appears to have incorporated
PRT for the 2010 Shanghai world expo.
I would thought it would an ideal opportunity to show the world what it's
all about?
John Evans
Tel. 44 (0) 161 456 4896
Fax. 44 (0) 161 456 8908
Mob. 44 (0) 781 412 3431
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Manning" <john.m...@comcast.net>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 9:21 PM
Subject: [t-i] Shanghai maglev
Michael Weidler
eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:
How can you consider a single family sized vehicle GRT? Can we agree
that bus-sized (40 to 120) is MASS transit? By your metric any
vehicle that carries more than one person isn't "personal"? What am I
missing? And I NEVER proposed vehicles holding more than 6 people. I
proposed linking them to get around short headway restriction making
the pphd reasonable to mass transit minded people.
F.
http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
On Jan 30, 10:50 am, Michael Weidler wrote:
> Frank, what is unfair is you continuing to insist that vehicles designed to hold 6+ people is PRT size. While there is certainly no reason that large vehicles can not be used in a "PRT mode", large vehicles are not PRT sized. If you really want to run in a "GRT mode", why not move four people at a time? You are going to have enough difficulty getting four people going to the same place at the same time.
>
> eph wrote:
>
> I think this is a little unfair. I don't promote GRT, I propose
> replacing MASS transit with (or using the money for MASS transit for)
> PRT-sized vehicles used in a GRT mode as a transition step to full
> PRT. Also, in some cases, having a GRT capability will be invaluable,
> for example, to manage unexpected traffic until a proper solution is
> implemented.
>
> F.http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
>
> On Jan 30, 10:06 am, Michael Weidler
> wrote:
>
> > Why do you keep insisting on GRT? The "reason" is exactly the same.
>
> > eph wrote:
>
> > Why does public transit have to mean MASS transit?
>
> > All pictures for the proposal show cattle cars.
>
> > F.
>
Michael Weidler
My argument (to the mass transit minded) is that in a worst case
scenario, people would board the first vehicle to arrive and it would
stop at all the needed stops just like a BRT or LRT would. It's easy
to see that capacity numbers are comparable in this scenario. I'm
specifically talking about my proposal here ( http://geocities.com/rhapsodiser/
) which replaces an existing busway section (straight line) with a PRT-
type (small vehicle) of system.
I think that once you get past the pphd hurdle, you can start to
realize all the benefits of small vehicles - their flexibility, timely
availability and "personal" nature.
So, by your definitions, I'm proposing a GRT solution for peak hours
using small (less than ~6 people) vehicles and a PRT solution the
rest of the time until a full PRT system can be realized at a later
time.
Availability - ULTra could work, but isn't a complete solution as it
stands. I need the possibility of greater speeds in a (near) future
version to (even consider) selling it. I honestly didn't think there
were so few systems that were ready for prime time. I thought it was
just a question of getting a contract. Something in between is still
missing it seems.
F.
Dennis Manning
farebox didn't cover operating expenses. If this news is true it's really
amazing that a two station line where the urban station is in a lousy
location could pay it's operating expenses from the farebox. So I'd like to
confirm it somehow. It seems to me like it's the most powerful selling point
the Transrapid people could have. Imagine what it could do with better
station locations.
Dennis
eph
capital amortization and interest) Doesn't make it a commercially
successful venture?
F.
On Jan 31, 12:57 pm, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Dennis Manning
thing to do but when you consider that nearly all mass transit systems in
the US don't even come close to covering their operating expenses it's a
step in the right direction. At least there is a possiblity that some of the
captital cost can be returned.
I think it has implications as to whether steel wheel high speed or maglev
is a better choice for system proposed from LA to SF.
Hengning Wu
1) Need to see the details. For the first few years, they were not able to
cover the operating expenses. In fact, far short of it. Now the problems are
fixed and maintenance cost is down, they may be able to do that. However, we
also need to see the length of time, one quarter, one year or more years,
since major maintenance costs may happen in one month. Now they want to
extend the Maglev to a nearby city, and they may produce some positive news.
2) The Shanghai Maglev is a connection between the subway system and the
airport. If there were direct access to the airport by subway, very few
people would use the Maglev. Now you have the choices: taxi, buses, or
subway plus Maglev. Since the subway is fast, reliable, and inexpensive, the
high cost Maglev is a reasonable tradeoff.
3)Most subways in China can cover the operating expenses, at least after a
few years. The imported subway lines from Germany are better off due to
their energy efficiency. Subway is a fast transportation system with average
speeds around 20 to 30 miles per hour. The whole trip speed may be around 15
to 20 miles per hour. In comparison, the average speed for cars and buses is
around 10 miles per hour. The whole trip speed will be less in consideration
of waiting time and the time to go to a station or parking lot. Therefore,
bikes are a very good choice there.
4) When a subway line in China needs subsidy, either the system is very old
or it is a political consideration. If the buses are heavily subsidized,
then you need to give subsidy to the subway too.
Hengning Wu