Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Jerry Schneider
== QUESTIONS SURROUND ATLANTA STREETCAR PROPOSAL
A proposed streetcar system in Atlanta has raised many
questions about feasibility and funding.
Jan 31 2008 -- Atlanta Journal-Constitution
http://www.planetizen.com/node/29524
Walter Brewer
condos near transit. So this streetcar district will tax condos, and not tax
detached homes nearby!!
Traffic will not get worse because some will ride it, and others can use
other parallel one way streets.
Makes sense?
Wonder if they have looked under a couple layers of pavement? Might find the
old tracks abandoned for lack of use. Would save a few bucks.
Walt Brewer
eph
The streetcars would average 10 mph. That's one hour to travel the
length of the corridor. Has anyone proposed a PT solution? 15
minutes or it's free. Maybe the pods could be replica Studebaker
shaped just for that "old time feel"?
F.
AlternateTrans
On Feb 4, 2:10 pm, Jerry Schneider <j...@peak.org> wrote:
> $190 m for a 10 mile system - lots of comments, pro and con
I think that someone should show them Jerry's page for a few
innovative ideas:
http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/index.html
-------------------------------------------------
Calvin
http://www.alternatetransport.com/
eph
everywhere Streetcars are proposed? They both affect the skyline.
What is it about streetcars that's so special? The bell sound?
Cincinnati Considers Streetcar Proposal:
http://www.planetizen.com/node/27805
Columbus Ohio streetcar proposal:
http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2007-02-19-0014.html
F.
On Feb 4, 5:24 pm, AlternateTrans <calvincl...@tradereference.biz>
wrote:
Walter Brewer
Jerry Schneider
>Should all the elevated guideway proponents put in alternate proposals
>everywhere Streetcars are proposed? They both affect the skyline.
>What is it about streetcars that's so special? The bell sound?
Normally, there is no opportunity for alternative proposals. The selection
of technology has already been made. There is the prospect of free
money from the FTA in the Small Starts program.
Also, there is the "I love streetcars" factor. There is a lot of hype about
positive land use impacts from the "permanent"
rail line (i.e. densification). Developers think the land values
along the route
will rise sharply. There is little risk as the technology is
well-proven. No automation
bugs to content with. No fancy stations required.
Electric propulsion is eco-friendly, little noise, smooth ride,
relatively small vehicles, the
"cuteness" factor. Minimal construction disruption, in some cases.
eph
and emotion trump fact and logic. Is there a way to change the
Personal Transport image from gadget to gorgeous? Sexy ads? High
speed rides on surprisingly good yet untraveled roads? What would it
take? How do you get there? A PR firm? Sell it like GAP clothes -
the image is everything? Ideas? Maybe some racing stripes or
lightning bolts? Crush velvet seats? Maybe a titanium shell like the
iPods? Where is the cool(kewl?) factor?
F.
Eric Baumgartner
eri...@shaw.ca
eph
http://www.hortonambulance.com/featuresWindow.shtml
Why wait till you get home to get it on? A Private Parlour (with
crush velvet seats ...or not).
Could also be used to snooze or change or whatever... Make use of
your PERSONAL travel time.
I know, it's not practical... that's not the point is it? Just a
commercial suggesting you could do that would be enough?
F.
Dennis Manning
don't yet exist. A real esate fellow took me aside one day and said the
pitch I was giving was falling flat because there are so many people that
can't do that. They can't put a vision in their own head. If he's right then
probably PRT won't get the sexy factor until they see and ride it. Maybe
some kind of super graphics might help. Next test is to see how the public
reacts to Heathrow.
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 6:36 PM
Subject: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>
eph
The super-sexy guy and girl get into the standard Hollywood "we're
about to make love scene" when the windows fog up. "PERSONAL TRANSIT"
a deep voice-over says "Get Some" as a pod zips away from the
station.
Something like that to spark the imagination?
F.
On Feb 4, 10:04 pm, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Dennis Manning
something I understood very well, and I hated buying something where you had
to sort of take the results on faith. Guess I don't have enough "salesman"
genes in my make up.
Guala Luca
> Is there a way to change the
Personal Transport image from gadget to gorgeous? Sexy ads? High
speed rides on surprisingly good yet untraveled roads? What would it
take? How do you get there? A PR firm? Sell it like GAP clothes -
the image is everything? Ideas? Maybe some racing stripes or
lightning bolts? Crush velvet seats? Maybe a titanium shell like the
iPods? Where is the cool(kewl?) factor?
If I am asked "how much does it cost" and "what is its performance" for PRT I produce suppliers' data, for LRT I produce real, detailed data
cheers, Luca
Guala Luca
thanks! Luca
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di eph
Inviato: mar 05/02/2008 3.36
A: transport-innovators
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Walter Brewer
are automated, started some wheels turning.
Would it be in PRT interest to automate a street car installation in some
city? It could be dressed up a bit to allow riders to select destinations,
even perhaps "reserve" a place remotely, and at a time of their choosing.
Not the ideal lightweight personalized vehicle, but better might come later.
Big challenge would be the automation including especially the safety issue.
At least one degree of freedom is eliminated; lateral. Then there is the
street car driver's union.
Success would generate something tangible to point to as Guala identifies
even though not the complete ballgame. The add ons would probably be
convincing enough for many communities. Failure would be a big step back,
especially if about safety.
Not pro or con. Just tossing the idea onto the options list. It's a popular
game in town to join at the moment.
Walt Brewer
Guala Luca
The rail people have all the interest in curbing any alternative that is in competition with to their product in any way and they have a thick and powerful network of relationship at al decision levels to keep their estabilishment alive. Just think of those people who get paid in percentage of the cost of the work: engineers, surveyors, designers, politicians... would they accept something that does the same job, but at one tenth of the cost?
When this municipality was beginning a discussion about a new urban transit system, I showed to the decision makers an anthological presentation of all the transit systems available today: from heavy rail to metro, LRT, steetcars, tram-on-tyres, BRT, guided buses, APM, monorails and, of course PRT. I described performance, cost, visual intrusion, use of land, flexibility, devlopment, access... I replied to questions. After a year the discussion is between metro and streetcars. All the remaining systems have not even been considered. Not even guided buses. Too unusual. Too innovative. Too unknown. They don't want to be the first.
cheers, Luca
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di Jerry Schneider
Inviato: mar 05/02/2008 1.02
A: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Guala Luca
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Rapid_Transit_(Singapore)
it works well, it was cheap(ish) to build, and it's even profitable.
cheers, Luca
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di Walter Brewer
Inviato: mar 05/02/2008 16.28
A: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Michael Weidler
eph
"real world examples". Cars aren't usually driven on open roads,
usually they are stuck in traffic. Deodorant doesn't make women want
you. Mr. Roger's Neighborhood trolley car isn't a practical
transportation mode...
I think a few unrealistic but plausible scenarios that appeal to
EMOTION, not reason, would help PT/PAT get some traction. Couldn't
hurt much.
I do agree systems must be built and proven, though cabintaxi was
there decades ago.
F.
> 6KDownload
Michael Weidler
Should all the elevated guideway proponents put in alternate proposals
everywhere Streetcars are proposed? They both affect the skyline.
What is it about streetcars that's so special? The bell sound?
Cincinnati Considers Streetcar Proposal:
http://www.planetizen.com/node/27805
Columbus Ohio streetcar proposal:
http://www.nbc4i.com/midwest/cmh/news.apx.-content-articles-CMH-2007-02-19-0014.html
F.
On Feb 4, 5:24 pm, AlternateTrans
wrote:
Dennis Manning
public that might get turned on by provacative ads. The decision to purchase
a trolley system or whatever is the result of very long drawn out planning
and funding efforts and their accompanying bureaucracies. The ads are not
likely to have much impact in those circles.
Dennis
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
You are absolutely right. In this industry the buyer/customer is not the
same as the user/customer.
In an ideal scenario the buyer would translate the needs of the user
into requirements on which suppliers could react and make an offer.
However, it's never an ideal scenario and you have to wonder if all
buyers are capable and/or willing to make 1:1 translation of the user
requirements. In most cases the translation will be influenced by
emotions, pressure from existing powers (whether suppliers of more
traditional systems, unions or residents) and all other types of reasons
you can't even start to think of.
To go from 'talk' to 'realization' it takes a customer that is willing
to do more. In Dutch it's called 'denken, durven, doen' (3D ;-). It
translates to 'plan it, dare to, do it'. Somehow local governments seem
to get stuck at the first or second phase every time around.
When it comes to advertising innovative transit, I still believe there
is a large role for ATRA. Currently there is no unbiased source on the
internet with objective information on PRT. When searching for PRT you
end up either on a PRT advocacy group, a vendor or at 'PRT is a joke'.
The unbiased website should reflect both the pro's and con's! And be
realistic about them by providing ways to mitigate the issues where
possible, but otherwise simply admitting the sytem does not offer a
solution for that aspect yet (e.g. if people find elevated systems
visual intrusion, that is their opinion and they are entitled to it -
simply state that the system would be more acceptable if not installed
in a residential area or historic district, but rather in a company
estate or office park).
I know ATRA is lacking resources to 'just do this', but this is where we
should be creative! If all ATRA members acknowledge the need for an
objective source, it would be possible to set it up using university
students contributing to the website. They write various articles under
guidance of an ATRA member, and the articles are then edited by others
before being published on the site. Such site would not feature any
specific companies, but rather categorize the type of systems available.
Many people are still unaware of PRT! We need to educate the market
before it can grow.
Robbert
Dennis Manning schreef:
eph
people like them and they are electric. They are slow, disrupt
traffic, require tracks and overhead lines, are inflexible and
dangerous. Bad transit choice.
Politicians are motivated by public demand (and sometimes kickbacks).
Choosing a popular system increases their popularity. So the system
must be popular AND work as advertised. I agree that unpopular and
untested aren't a good combination. Advertising can fix the
popularity aspect and good engineering the untested aspect. Putting
forward proposals to the public and to officials is part of
advertising. Eventually, they will all come to realize that PAT is
the right path to choose.
It will never happen if you don't keep trying and resign to this
defeatist attitude. Are you guys working for the LRT crowd? I don't
get it.
F.
On Feb 5, 11:25 am, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Dennis Manning
for 15 years and have raised $36m locally. Don't give me that deafist crap.
Michael Weidler
eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Here's a PT is sexy idea - privacy windows - electronically activated:
http://www.hortonambulance.com/featuresWindow.shtml
Why wait till you get home to get it on? A Private Parlour (with
crush velvet seats ...or not).
Could also be used to snooze or change or whatever... Make use of
your PERSONAL travel time.
I know, it's not practical... that's not the point is it? Just a
commercial suggesting you could do that would be enough?
F.
On Feb 4, 8:55 pm, eph wrote:
> Speaking of elections... Maybe it IS a popularity contest. Rhetoric
> and emotion trump fact and logic. Is there a way to change the
> Personal Transport image from gadget to gorgeous? Sexy ads? High
> speed rides on surprisingly good yet untraveled roads? What would it
> take? How do you get there? A PR firm? Sell it like GAP clothes -
> the image is everything? Ideas? Maybe some racing stripes or
> lightning bolts? Crush velvet seats? Maybe a titanium shell like the
> iPods? Where is the cool(kewl?) factor?
>
> F.
>
Michael Weidler
eph <rhaps...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Maybe just you-tube quality graphics - viral PT?
The super-sexy guy and girl get into the standard Hollywood "we're
about to make love scene" when the windows fog up. "PERSONAL TRANSIT"
a deep voice-over says "Get Some" as a pod zips away from the
station.
Something like that to spark the imagination?
F.
On Feb 4, 10:04 pm, "Dennis Manning"
wrote:
> I think most people on this list are pretty good at envisioning things that
> don't yet exist. A real esate fellow took me aside one day and said the
> pitch I was giving was falling flat because there are so many people that
> can't do that. They can't put a vision in their own head. If he's right then
> probably PRT won't get the sexy factor until they see and ride it. Maybe
> some kind of super graphics might help. Next test is to see how the public
> reacts to Heathrow.
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eph"
> To: "transport-innovators"
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 6:36 PM
> Subject: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>
> > Here's a PT is sexy idea - privacy windows - electronically activated:
> >http://www.hortonambulance.com/featuresWindow.shtml
>
> > Why wait till you get home to get it on? A Private Parlour (with
> > crush velvet seats ...or not).
>
> > Could also be used to snooze or change or whatever... Make use of
> > your PERSONAL travel time.
>
> > I know, it's not practical... that's not the point is it? Just a
> > commercial suggesting you could do that would be enough?
>
> > F.
>
> > On Feb 4, 8:55 pm, eph wrote:
> >> Speaking of elections... Maybe it IS a popularity contest. Rhetoric
> >> and emotion trump fact and logic. Is there a way to change the
> >> Personal Transport image from gadget to gorgeous? Sexy ads? High
> >> speed rides on surprisingly good yet untraveled roads? What would it
> >> take? How do you get there? A PR firm? Sell it like GAP clothes -
> >> the image is everything? Ideas? Maybe some racing stripes or
> >> lightning bolts? Crush velvet seats? Maybe a titanium shell like the
> >> iPods? Where is the cool(kewl?) factor?
>
> >> F.
>
Michael Weidler
eph
above yours.
While I agree that presenting a provocative ad to transit buyers won't
get results, wouldn't you agree that favourable public opinion would
be an asset just as it is for streetcars? If that proven (bad)
technology can get traction that way, why can't PAT?
F.
On Feb 5, 12:07 pm, "Dennis Manning" <john.manni...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Dennis Manning
getting at is that until the public, i.e. the end users, are somewhat
familiar with PRT the ads will fall on deaf ears. Imagine advertising PC's
before they were available.
eph
concept of driverless cars isn't that foreign? I'll admit the term
PRT is practically unknown (at least to everyone I talked to).
F.
Richard Gronning
Michael Weidler wrote:
1) Governments do not take "proposals" by entities which are not vendors of the proposed systems.
2) Streetcars are proven tedchnology3) The Feds are often willing to fork over money for streetcars
4) Streetcars are proven technology5) The Feds are often willing to fork over money for streetcars
6) Streecars are perceived as encouraging development.
Governments want to justify the expense of the transit systems and the subsidies. They fund developers to show how transit is good for development. It's a good deal for developers!
Walter Brewer
But it's on its own dedicated elevated guideway!
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Walter Brewer
Roy Reynolds
channels, and oft heard NIMBY complaint (realistic in this case)
regards "peeping" into 2nd floor back windows of houses from a vehicle
passing by (however quickly) -- seems everyone's got a teenage
daughter living up there, so I've used this window clouding analogy
with some success. I've seen this technology used in office
conference rooms, and since a PRT vehicle should know where it is, it
wouldn't be that difficult to shade a window when passing an offended
resident. This should also have some value as a sun shade.
Re. streetcars in general, certain applications have worked well over
the years -- during my misspent twenties, I lived in San Francisco
where they were heavily used along Market Street, and then routed
miles into the neighborhoods. There were some dedicated paths in
certain areas, but for the most part they did co-exist with surface
traffic (with the usual interactions) on some very four-lane narrow
streets. Overall average speed was slow, but SF isn't very large
anyway, so it was effective transit. It was partially undergrounded
along Market St. when BART was built, which helped throughput a lot.
> 10KDownload
eph
to the imagination?
F.
On Feb 5, 3:15 pm, "Walter Brewer" <catca...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
> Or promote condoms in every cab?
>
> Walt Brewer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Weidler
> To: transport-...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:49 PM
> Subject: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>
> ROFLMAO! That is terrific! Anybody out there have the resources to make a video like that?
>
Walter Brewer
eph
short. You're right, bad fit with Viagra - too bad, lots of money
there...
F.
Guala Luca
> If you produce for LRT "real, detailed data", how in the world do they sell any systems? It is perfectly obvious from the real word data that LRT does not work as advertised.
cheers, Luca
Guala Luca
> But it's on its own dedicated elevated guideway!
And an automated vehicle at ground level mixed with traffic and pedestrians wouldn't probably work too well
Luca
Walter Brewer
But its the best act in town right now, sadly, and IF a favorable domo
showing off some of PRT could be done, maybe some traction.
Another risk is minor improvement to the clanging big box car might be
consideral all that is necessary.
Walt Brewer
Jack Slade
Are you serious? The only good things about streetcars are that
people like them and they are electric. They are slow, disrupt
traffic, require tracks and overhead lines, are inflexible and
dangerous. Bad transit choice.
Politicians are motivated by public demand (and sometimes kickbacks).
Choosing a popular system increases their popularity. So the system
must be popular AND work as advertised. I agree that unpopular and
untested aren't a good combination. Advertising can fix the
popularity aspect and good engineering the untested aspect. Putting
forward proposals to the public and to officials is part of
advertising. Eventually, they will all come to realize that PAT is
the right path to choose.
It will never happen if you don't keep trying and resign to this
defeatist attitude. Are you guys working for the LRT crowd? I don't
get it.
F.
On Feb 5, 11:25 am, "Dennis Manning"
wrote:
> Part of the problem is that the buyers of transit systems aren't the general
> public that might get turned on by provacative ads. The decision to purchase
> a trolley system or whatever is the result of very long drawn out planning
> and funding efforts and their accompanying bureaucracies. The ads are not
> likely to have much impact in those circles.
>
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "eph"
> To: "transport-innovators"
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:58 AM
> Subject: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>
> > What I'm suggesting, is that cars (and many products) aren't sold by
> > "real world examples". Cars aren't usually driven on open roads,
> > usually they are stuck in traffic. Deodorant doesn't make women want
> > you. Mr. Roger's Neighborhood trolley car isn't a practical
> > transportation mode...
>
> > I think a few unrealistic but plausible scenarios that appeal to
> > EMOTION, not reason, would help PT/PAT get some traction. Couldn't
> > hurt much.
>
> > I do agree systems must be built and proven, though cabintaxi was
> > there decades ago.
>
> > F.
>
Edward Sax
Guala Luca
if you want to see videos of automated transit vehicles (on tyres, not trams) running on the road with bikes and pedestrians you should ask Robbert Lohmann of 2getthere. He's on this list.
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com per conto di Walter Brewer
A: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: Singapore LRT (was streetcar project for Atlanta)
Luca Guala
Jack,
street cars are liked by the people who ride them, at least in Europe. Maybe not all but they are higher in the collective totem pole than in yours. And bicycles are pretty high up too.
Don’t make the mistake of projecting your preferences to a whole population: you are not a statistically significant sample!
Cheers, Luca
Ing. Luca Guala
gu...@systematica.net
Systematica Cagliari
tel. 070 275939
fax. 070 2082381
http://www.systematica.net/
Da:
transport-...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Jack Slade
Inviato: mercoledì 6 febbraio 2008
0.45
A: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re:
Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Walter Brewer
Edward Sax
Walt said: Just call it an antique horizontal elevator.Most elevators became automated in the 1950's, streetcars will never be.Eric Baumgartner
eri...@shaw.ca----- Original Message -----From: Walter BrewerSent: Monday, February 04, 2008 3:31 PMSubject: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Just call it an antique horizontal elevator.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 5:11 PM
Subject: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>
> According to the feasibility study:
> http://www.atlantastreetcar.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=faq.feasibility
>
> The streetcars would average 10 mph. That's one hour to travel the
> length of the corridor. Has anyone proposed a PT solution? 15
> minutes or it's free. Maybe the pods could be replica Studebaker
> shaped just for that "old time feel"?
>
> F.
>
>
> On Feb 4, 3:41 pm, "Walter Brewer" <catca...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>> Smart Growth wants people to live in densely constructed apartments and
>> condos near transit. So this streetcar district will tax condos, and not
>> tax
>> detached homes nearby!!
>>
>> Traffic will not get worse because some will ride it, and others can use
>> other parallel one way streets.
>>
>> Makes sense?
>>
>> Wonder if they have looked under a couple layers of pavement? Might find
>> the
>> old tracks abandoned for lack of use. Would save a few bucks.
>>
>> Walt Brewer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jerry Schneider" <j...@peak.org>
>> To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:10 PM
>> Subject: [t-i] Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
>>
>> > $190 m for a 10 mile system - lots of comments, pro and con
>>
>> > == QUESTIONS SURROUND ATLANTA STREETCAR PROPOSAL
>> > A proposed streetcar system in Atlanta has raised many
>> > questions about feasibility and funding.
>> > Jan 31 2008 -- Atlanta Journal-Constitution
>> > http://www.planetizen.com/node/29524
> >
>
Luca Guala
Walt,
USA and Europe start from very different starting blocks: USA was a car-only (almost) Nation, and it’s trying to add some PT to reduce the dependency on the cars. This requires a lot of public decision-making and money as well as a certain amount of deviation from market economy towards a rule-based economy.
European Countries (United Europe is anything but united) each in different ways and magnitude have always been very dependent on PT, although the private car has the top share since the 60’s. Most PT systems were State owned or at least State ruled and state subsidized, and worked in monopoly outside any logic of market economy. You can see it from the names of the rail companies: British Rail, Ferrovie dello Stato, Ferrocarrils Nacionales Deutsche Bundesbahn etcetera. Europe is undergoing a shift towards private enterprise, and is putting more market and more state in transportation. The first Country to do so extensively has been UK which now has the most expensive PT in the world and the most complicated PT faring and schedule system, ever.
So, even if it may seem that Euorpe is taking steps towards individual decisions and cars, it is still much more dependent on PT and less on cars than USA and more a regulatory type of market than USA, and it will still be when this readjustment will be completed (if it ever will). As for China, it is simply making the same mistakes that our Countries have done 50 years ago by not recognizing that it is not possible to make transportation of persons depend entirely on the private car.
Regards, Luca
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
As far as I know the policies in the Netherlands at least are focused on
allowing mobility, but also trying to make people aware of how and when
they travel. An elaborate scheme has been announced with charges being
applicable on all highways. The chargers will be higer in congested
area's and during peak times. Which means I will seriously consider
travelling at other times or by public transit!
How the surrounding countries are approaching the issue private vs.
public transit I must admit - I am not entirely aware. I do know that in
contrast to the USA, Europe has a lot less space available. Europe does
not have the luxury of accommodating cars to the degree that the USA can...
So (although I am not a statistically significant example) I had the
believe is was the contrary of what you wrote. I am mistaken? Please
clarify.
Oh, Jack: Luca is right. Here the bike is probably on top of the totem
pole :-) I use it whenever I can, because it is cheap, easy and much
more relaxed. And when I visited Toronto I used the streetcar and found
it very convenient - but that's the experience from a tourists point of
view (I also thought the LRT in Houston was good, loved the subway in
D.C and NY, the metromover in Miami - and even the Monorail in Seattle
[although it doens't go anywhere]).
Robbert
Walter Brewer schreef:
> But if we look at rates instead of status, Europe and USA seem to be
> moving in opposite directions. Europe for more personal transport with
> cars, USA, at least in the minds of transportation leadership such as
> it is, toward more collective transport.
> Another reverse seems to be happening. The Europe trend seems to be
> led by decisions by individuals, that in USA leadership attempts to
> change lifestyles to accommodate collective transport.
> The move to personal transport in China, based on my brief experience
> there, is strong mostly by autos. But the persistence of the lowly
> bike to provide it is impressive.
> Walt Brewer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Luca Guala <mailto:gu...@systematica.net>
> *To:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 06, 2008 6:33 AM
> *Subject:* [t-i] R: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project
> proposed for Atlanta
>
> Jack,
>
> street cars are liked by the people who ride them, at least in
> Europe. Maybe not all but they are higher in the collective totem
> pole than in yours. And bicycles are pretty high up too.
>
> Don’t make the mistake of projecting your preferences to a whole
> population: you are not a statistically significant sample!
>
> Cheers, Luca
>
> Ing. Luca Guala
> gu...@systematica.net <mailto:gu...@systematica.net>
> Systematica Cagliari
> tel. 070 275939
> fax. 070 2082381
> http://www.systematica.net/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Da:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] *Per conto di *Jack
> Slade
> *Inviato:* mercoledì 6 febbraio 2008 0.45
> *A:* transport-...@googlegroups.com
> *Oggetto:* [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
Please refer to our website (www.2getthere.eu <http://www.2getthere.eu>)
and click on the 4th thumbnail on the main tv-screen. Then click play.
This is a video of the two-week demonstration in the city of Antibes. A
road normally used by car traffic was closed down for the demonstration.
As you can see we allowed slow traffic to access the area - you see both
pedestrians and bikes. We chose not to put up warning signs as we were
operating at a low speed and wanted to test the reactions of the people
in the surroundings (to be certain we had one of our employees in the
vehicle at all times).
Mixing with other traffic is more difficult. This is mainly due to the
unpredictable and sometime anti-social behaviour of other road users. I
am not concerned about cars in front or behind me. The sensors are
available to stop in time and we do have braking lights. The concern
would be with merging traffic (being overtaken by an impatient driver or
somebody leaving a parking bay) and traffic at intersections (imagine
somebody running a red light; normal drivers - if attentive and
competent - can react to some degree, with automation this is much more
difficult). The merging traffic is a 'problem' because merging tightly
in front of the vehicle would activate the obstacle detection sensors
that you need to slow down in time for vehicles behaving normally, but
slowing down in front of you.
There are a lot of possibilities but in the end it will also be
dependent on the intensity of the traffic flows. If these are too high,
such a system will not provide a solution - dedicated lanes with grade
seperation at intersections are required!
Robbert
Guala Luca schreef:
Richard Gronning
Walt sees the directions that Europe and the U.S. taking exact opposite directions. At first it seems that "public transit" is democratic. Therefore it would seem that a move towards, "public transit" must be democratic. But, is it really? Who makes these decisions? From what information are the decisions made?
Walter Brewer wrote:
But if we look at rates instead of status, Europe and USA seem to be moving in opposite directions. Europe for more personal transport with cars, USA, at least in the minds of transportation leadership such as it is, toward more collective transport.
Another reverse seems to be happening. The Europe trend seems to be led by decisions by individuals, that in USA leadership attempts to change lifestyles to accommodate collective transport.
What motivates the governmental transportation moves in the U.S?
The move to personal transport in China, based on my brief experience there, is strong mostly by autos. But the persistence of the lowly bike to provide it is impressive.
Luca Guala
Richard,
Ø I like bikes! has anybody ever tried HPVs? Recumbent bikes?
I have ridden a recumbent. I loved it at the beginning and hated it at the end. Why? Firstly, you can’t move a metre without attracting the attention of everyone. It’s cool at first, it becomes annoying when you go to work every day. Secondly, when riding among cars, they can’t see you and you can’t see a damn thing except the back of the car in front of you. Scary!!! On the other hand, you can go really really fast riding a recumbent in the wake of a car.
On an “ordinary” bike your head is well above the roof of most cars although things are getting worse now that SUV’s are so common. I think this problem will also affect modern streamlined vehicles such as TriTrack.
Cheers, Luca
Jerry Roane
Jerry Roane
Richard Gronning
Luca Guala wrote:
Richard,
Ø I like bikes! has anybody ever tried HPVs? Recumbent bikes?
I have ridden a recumbent. I loved it at the beginning and hated it at the end. Why? Firstly, you can’t move a metre without attracting the attention of everyone. It’s cool at first, it becomes annoying when you go to work every day. Secondly, when riding among cars, they can’t see you and you can’t see a damn thing except the back of the car in front of you. Scary!!! On the other hand, you can go really really fast riding a recumbent in the wake of a car.
My experience with recumbents is that cars reacted to them (me) with more awareness because they looked different. The cars slowed and looked. I felt safer. The "attracting attention" became an asset. For touring in rural areas with less traffic and longer distances, a recumbent seems better. In closer traffic during rush hours maybe you have the best point.
On an “ordinary” bike your head is well above the roof of most cars although things are getting worse now that SUV’s are so common. I think this problem will also affect modern streamlined vehicles such as TriTrack.
Kirston Henderson
> Another problem is, "How does one fit a recumbent into a PRT vehicle, unless
> it folds?"
If bikes are so great, why would anyone need a PRT?
Kirston Henderson
MegaRail®
Walter Brewer
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirston Henderson" <kirston....@megarail.com>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Walter Brewer
increasing, and may be approaching USA as an asymptote. In USA is about
constant although vehicle miles traveled/capita is still increasing. In both
regions the desire for cars seems to be condoned by the societies
respectively. A few years ago in Russia, I was amazed at how cars have
appeared in droves following demise of the Soviet Union and change in rules
to permit this freedom, and despite mass transit in most every block. In
Norway I was in three cities with downtown auto restrictions. Tourguide
assessment was; not much effect on traffic, but a funds source for growth
elsewhere. But for last 20 years, leadership is trying to get people out of
cars in USA as the "solution" to congestion. I agree the same restrictions
are beginning to appear in places like London.
Perhaps all areas are reaching the conclusion we can't afford the land
needed and the energy used. So far the central reason for the car, personal
freedom for when and where rapidly has not permeated leadership, nor the
impact on productivity if it is restricted. I've mentioned before the linear
relation between GDP per capita and personal autos per capita. California
legislature is considering a bill to ration driving in general.
Most of us think the personal transport feature can be retained with some
form of PRT. But the anti auto ideology is very strong, and not very
analytic.
Don't know if I have a message or reason for bringing this up, except some
of the background for providing what the people in general seem to want.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: <rob...@2getthere.eu>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Walter Brewer
Are you aware of data for the impact of variable pricing you mention for
highway use? Has it flattened peaks, increased or decreased daily throughput
etc? If available, where could I get data?
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: <rob...@2getthere.eu>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 11:17 AM
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
trips. People like to have choices (I can actually pay for something in
the store in four or five different ways: credit, debit, cash, chip,
tele-banking, etc.). In transit it is just the same:
- When I go to work out at the local gym I walk (10minutes)
- When I go to play sports during the summer (btw: baseball in Europe),
I go by bike (10minutes)
- When I go out (downtown) I go by bike (15minutes)
- When I go to the beach, I go by bike (30minutes)
- When I go to events, I go by bus and train (30+minutes)
- When I go to work, I go by car (1hr)
- When I visit friend, I go by bike or car (depending on where they live).
PRT (or GRT) would be a nice addition to the mix.
For the popularity of the bike it helps everything in the Netherlands is
relatively close, there are dedicated bike paths everywhere and we are a
very flat country (no difficult hills!).
Robbert
Kirston Henderson schreef:
Guala Luca
> I think you have a false impression of the size of the TriTrack. It is big. Attached is the comparison of size with the tail of my Prius.
As for the garage, the Tri Track unfortunately is longer than a standard European garage. Unless your target are Jaguar owners willing to let their Jags outdoors, if you want to sell the Tri Track in Europe you should consider seriously the idea of losing some tenth of percent of Cx by cutting some 2 ft off the stinger
cheers, Luca
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
know this...
Walter Brewer schreef:
Walter Brewer
I wonder if you have learned things that might apply to what in USA is
called the Automated Highway System. Closely following cars to improve
highway throughput. Joining and leaving the stream, and operating in mixed
flows seem to be the deterrents.
I brought up the automated streetcar not so much to advocate, but to
piggyback on a popular apparatus in a way beneficial to PRT. Mostly user
features that PRT would have for example. I suppose some could be
demonstrated even with a driver, but not as meaningfully. The streetcar has
to solve a different issue PRT on a guideway does not; namely safety from
collisions.
In one of you pictures did I see a map for passengers to know their
location?
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
Richard Gronning
If this is a serious question, how far would you want to ride a bike? I used to commute about 5 miles on a bike. I would drive a car if it looked like rain. I would have biked if I had PRT available in case it rained..
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
The system is being discussed for YEARS! Now it finally seems the
government has made the decision to do it. The first stages have to be
operational on the ring-road of Amsterdam in 2012 I think.
I am certain it will work. In general Dutch people are very scrappy with
money. We've also seen the 'trajectory speed control' which means for
each individual car the average speed between two exits is measured -
and fines are handed out quickly. This has reduced the number of
speeding cars on those sections of road to a mere 4%!!!
If there is any place to find such data it would be with the Dutch
ministery Verkeer en Waterstaat
<http://www.verkeerenwaterstaat.nl/english/>.
Robbert
Walter Brewer schreef:
Walter Brewer
modes that cost as much or more, but don't come close to parity in
performance.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: <rob...@2getthere.eu>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 4:14 PM
Subject: [t-i] Re: (NT) U.S. directions (NT) Recumbents
Guala Luca
> Could it be the conditions? To begin with You experience a different type of driver and a different type of traffic. What if you were in a situation where motorized traffic weren't allowed?
> My experience with recumbents is that cars reacted to them (me) with more awareness because they looked different. The cars slowed and looked. I felt safer. The "attracting attention" became an asset. For touring in rural areas with less traffic and longer distances, a recumbent seems better. In closer traffic during rush hours maybe you have the best point.
> Another problem is, "How does one fit a recumbent into a PRT vehicle, unless it folds?"
http://www.yankodesign.com/index.php/2007/09/03/grasshopper-the-folding-recumbent-bike/
cheers, Luca
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
I am not sure which picture you mean, but the screen-shots you see in
the video are from our supervisory control system. The green vehicle
indicates it has a job assignment and the figurine shows there are
people inside the vehicle.
We can use this data to provide passengers with a real time overview of
movements, but haven't done that to date. The interface at the Rivium
application is rather simple, comparable to an elevator, with a few push
buttons for the 5 stations. For PRT applications this would be replaced
with a touch-screen.
Note: these images reflect our current supervisor. Our new supervisor in
75% complete and a big improvement. Not only for the operator (user
interface), but mainly because of its' distributed architecture
(controlling as much as possible locally, with a network of different
computers - making it more flexible, more robust and better suited for
the large number of vehicles associated with PRT applications).
Robbert
Walter Brewer schreef:
Tad Winiecki
higher than their head to be more visible to drivers. Some people like
attention, others don't. When the Chinese start producing recumbent
battery-powered mopeds with full fairings and learn they can commute
faster than autos fewer of them may want to commute in cars.
I ride a long wheelbase recumbent with under seat handlebars. It is the
most comfortable bike I have ever ridden. I have built an amphibious
pedal/paddle/trimaran sailboat, "Shimon's Boat". It has recumbent
seating positions for the two pilots. I raced it in five kinetic
sculpture races in 2004 and 2005. Now I am modifiying the drive train
and plan to race it again when it is ready. If anyone wants pictures
of it please email me and I will send some.
I belong to a bicycle gang, Oregon Human Powered Vehicles, which has
races on Memorial Day weekend at Portland International Raceway. We
share the track with Electrathon racers. There are classes for
different types of bikes, including fully enclosed streamliners. See
http://www.ohpv.org/HPC/index.html
Some recumbents are long wheelbase, some are short wheelbase. I
believe I can arrange the interior of the Higherway Pelican pod to
accommodate either style.
On Feb 6, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Luca Guala wrote:
> Richard,
>
> Ø I like bikes! has anybody ever tried HPVs? Recumbent bikes?
>
> I have ridden a recumbent. I loved it at the beginning and hated it at
> the end. Why? Firstly, you can’t move a metre without attracting the
> attention of everyone. It’s cool at first, it becomes annoying when
> you go to work every day. Secondly, when riding among cars, they can’t
> see you and you can’t see a damn thing except the back of the car in
> front of you. Scary!!! On the other hand, you can go really really
> fast riding a recumbent in the wake of a car.
> On an “ordinary” bike your head is well above the roof of most cars
> although things are getting worse now that SUV’s are so common. I
> think this problem will also affect modern streamlined vehicles such
> as TriTrack.
> Cheers, Luca
>
God bless you.
Tad Winiecki
Higherway Transport Research
"Suburb to suburb quicker"
http://higherway.us
Evacuated Tube Transport licensee
http://www.et3.com
Guala Luca
pole :-) I use it whenever I can, because it is cheap, easy and much
more relaxed. And when I visited Toronto I used the streetcar and found
it very convenient -
However, every time i go to London I see more bikes on the roads.
I had a chat with people from Steer Davies Gleave last Tuesday, and they told me they are working for TfL (Transport for London) on a project to improve the "legibility of the urban environment" for pedestrians. It appears that with congestion charging, the use of car has dived down, and the useof public transport has soared. So much that ALL PT is now at capacity during rush hour. And it cannot be improved. The Underground is already running at its shortest headway, and so are buses on the most congested corridors. The main Metro stations cannot cope with the flow of people.
The idea of TfL and the Mayor is now to convince Londoneers to cycle and walk. Not necessarily from the origin of their trip, which can be 25 km away, but maybe they could alight from the Underground at a less crowded station, then walk, or unfold their Brompton and cycle. Maybe PRT could be the next step?
cheers, Luca
Guala Luca
speeding cars on those sections of road to a mere 4%!!!
The introduction of fixed speed cameras (German style) on a ringroad (70 km/h speed limit) around the town where I live has produced new way of driving: speed up to 90-120 km/h; brake HARD near the camera, pass in front of it at 70 then SPEED UP again as quick as possible. It's fun when you see little trains of Alfa Romeos and BMW's doing the "camera dance" on the fast lane. By the way, headway is less than one second. If they can do it, why not PRT?
cheers, Luca
Richard Gronning
> RE: motorized traffic not allowed? Is there such a paradise on earth?
>
routes on less-busy city streets, some are paved separate bike-only
routes. An idea about 10 years ago in Minneapolis was to set up these
routes for commuting to work. I can think of 2 bike-only routes into
down town Minneapolis and a couple into downtown St. Paul. As I
mentioned in another brief, Sacramento CA has some fine bike-only
routes. Anchorage is criss-crossed with paved bike-only routes that are
used for cross-country skiing in winter.
From what Robert of 2getthere writes, the Netherlands also have some
bike routes. I've seen them in Germany too. Denmark has them. Many
countries have bike and pedestrian routes.
> RE: My experience is a short-ish ride around town on a fiend'sbike, after a trial test in a park to see if I could manage it (it was an SWB recumbent, luckily with high bars). It was in 1999 in Leeds, UK. It was stressful enough for me to ride on the left hand, and to manage such a strange handling vehicle, having cars slow alongside and the driver stare at me was a nightmare
>
While I sympathize, I think that you have to put at least 15 KM on a
recumbent before you even begin to feel comfortable and in control. You
make a strong point that I agree with that they probably aren't for the
inner city, unless it's car free. Recumbents are at their best on
bike-only routes and non-city roads without much traffic.
>> Problem solved:
>>
>> http://www.yankodesign.com/index.php/2007/09/03/grasshopper-the-folding-recumbent-bike/
>>
>> cheers, Luca
>>
That would work with PRT!
All the Best,
Dick
Walter Brewer
risk to automated vehicles such as the ones Robbert describes is red light
runners.
Would not red light camera sensors provide the signal to at least prevent
the automated vehicle passage into the intersection?
BTW: Stats show RLC's increase accident rates at intersections because they
cause sudden braking, and rear end accidents. However the injury/death rate
is lower because the accidents are less energetic.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [t-i] RIF: [t-i] Re: R: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project
proposed for Atlanta
Jay Andress
Jack Slade
Jack,street cars are liked by the people who ride them, at least in Europe. Maybe not all but they are higher in the collective totem pole than in yours. And bicycles are pretty high up too.Don’t make the mistake of projecting your preferences to a whole population: you are not a statistically significant sample!Cheers, Luca
Ing. Luca Guala
gu...@systematica.net
Systematica Cagliari
tel. 070 275939
fax. 070 2082381
http://www.systematica.net/
Da: transport-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:transport-...@googlegroups.com] Per conto di Jack Slade
Inviato: mercoledì 6 febbraio 2008 0.45
A: transport-...@googlegroups.com
Oggetto: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for Atlanta
Guala Luca
> I think I am a good statistical example for North America.
> Are you sure people like the trams, ar is it just that they don't have any other way to get there?
cheers, Luca
Guala Luca
> RE: motorized traffic not allowed? Is there such a paradise on earth?
>
Many cities in the U.S. have an agenda to set up bike trails.
Incredibly, some of my worst enemies are the bike advocacy groups. They want bike lanes everywhere and it's of no use explaining that bikes can and should ride mixed with traffic, provided the intersections are made safe. I tried to explain that mode separation is OK in country roads but it's not the way to go in a dense urban area with little road space. Actually mixing bikes with cars will promote a virtuous behaviour from both sides, while separating them will allow anyone to do as they please in the space they have assigned
I tried to explain that a proper bike lane will require removing parking space and would exacerbate the conflict between cyclists and car users. I was labelled as a car advocate and an enemy of cycling!
Moreover, they are convinced that a 1 km long 10% incline is not an obstacle to any cyclist and a bike lane should be drawn on that road too. Sometimes, riding too much makes you unaware of the difference between a trained cyclist and a normal person. They are effectively doing the game of the car lobby in the administration who can't wait to build useless bike lanes to say "See? No cyclist used it. It's wasted money. I had told you they don't deserve anything"
> While I sympathize, I think that you have to put at least 15 KM on a
recumbent before you even begin to feel comfortable and in control.
> You
make a strong point that I agree with that they probably aren't for the
inner city, unless it's car free. Recumbents are at their best on
bike-only routes and non-city roads without much traffic.
cheers, Luca
eph
is generally bad). They usually aren't smelly diesel, have low
acceleration/deceleration and smooth curves so you don't get jostled
around, they're probably more spacious because weight is less of an
issue and they're probably quieter (no air brakes).
Ottawa has extensive bike paths and roadside allowances for bicycles,
which is wonderful. Unfortunately they don't plow the paths. This is
an insurance/money issue which forces winter bikers onto the streets -
stupid.
I've stated before, personal modes of transport - like walking and
biking tend to be far superior to mass transit (depending on distance
and weather conditions - not an issues for cars). I agree that mass
transit is a last resort and statistics seem to support that feeling.
F.
> 8KDownload
Walter Brewer
traffic. Maybe the increasing congestion helps. I'll try to find a picture I
took looking down on a busy intersection in Shanghai. More bikes than cars.
Wonder what the death/injury rate is?
Natives claim bikes persist because with very compact cities, they are
faster than mass transit.Personal transport wins again!
San Diego allocates about one percent of funds derived from a 1/2 cent
sales tax for transportation to bike facilities, mainly bike lanes. That's
over $3 million per year over planned 40 years. The spin is to relieve
congestion. Ride bikes instead of commute by car. Most biking is
recreational however, so this is just payback to a strong bike lobby. Latest
is to spend about $12 million on a bike trail parallel to the new 22 mile
light rail line in North County. It would make more sense to build bike
lanes lateral to the rail to feed passengers into the trains.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Guala Luca" <gu...@systematica.net>
To: <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Walter Brewer
station, 35 crossing 22 mile light rail Oceanside to Escondido. Trains are
two car self propelled 132 seat Siemens cars with smelly Diesel power.
Walt Brewer
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 7:39 AM
Subject: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: R: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar
project proposed for Atlanta
>
googlemail
If bikes and cyclists were licensed and insured, the revenue generated could
go towards creating and maintaining (including winter ploughing) more
pathways and employing 'cycle warden's' to stop (fines) for jumping traffic
lights, riding on pavements, riding without lights etc.
Got to be worth $50 a year for anyone over school leaving age?
John Evans
Tel. 44 (0) 161 456 4896
Fax. 44 (0) 161 456 8908
Mob. 44 (0) 781 412 3431
----- Original Message -----
From: "eph" <rhaps...@yahoo.com>
To: "transport-innovators" <transport-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 12:39 PM
Subject: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: R: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar
project proposed for Atlanta
Walter Brewer
etc is a right or privilege?
Walt Brewer
Luca Guala
Jay,
> It sounds like lots of bike riders in this group! We will have to organize a bike ride sometime. Maybe someplace in Europe. Some nice switchbacks in Switzerland or Italy!!! Personally I wouldn't ride a recumbent. I got hit by a car several years ago and flew over the hood and sustained minor injuries. If I had been on a recumbent I would have been embedded in the side of the car and suffered serious injuries.
I rear ended a car once while going fast on a bicycle. I went right through the rear window and landed on the passenger seat. Had I been on a recumbent I would have found steel in front of me, instead of glass. But maybe the accident would simply not have happened because if I didn’t see the car overtaking, turning right and braking in front of me to park, it was because I had my head low down on the bars. You are always looking ahead from a recumbent.
For the structure mechanics inclined: the frame of my bike bent so much that the front wheel overlapped the bottom bracket and the steering angle was negative, but the front wheel was totally unscathed. I rebuilt the bike on another frame and used both wheels without even having to re-true them. This speaks a lot for the resilience of spoked wheels
Cheers, Luca
robbert@2getthere.eu [2getthere]
obervers that determine whether or not the kids know all the traffic
rules and signal properly where they are turning. In practice this works
until they are teeners, and then they start running red light and
forgetting to signal that they are turning just like the rest of us
(bike-riders, that is).
At the same time please note that the Dutch law states that in case of a
collission with a bike it is always automatically assumed that the car
was responsible. The exception being that the bike made an error in
combination with the fact that the driver of the car was not to blame!
e.g. the car has to adjust his speed to the circumstances (not the speed
limit!) and the driver has to proof he reacted adequately when the biker
came into the picture. The error by the biker has to be so unusual, that
the car driver could not take this into account (the example given is:
if there is a traffic light which is often ignored by bikers, the car
would have to adjust his behaviour appropriately!).
If the bike-rider is younger than 14 years of age, this protection goes
even further, with the car driver practically always being responsible
for any damges.
It helps feeling safe riding a bike :-)
Robbert
BTW: I was told the Emirates have something similar. If you get into a
collission with a motor-cycle, you are automatically arrested and
locked-up. Only after 2 weeks they determine the consequences of the
collission and decide to let you go, to fine you or to prosecute you...
googlemail schreef:
Walter Brewer
----- Original Message -----From: Luca Guala
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 11:13 AMSubject: [t-i] R: [t-i] Re: R: [t-i] Re: RIF: [t-i] Re: Streetcar project proposed for AtlantaWalt,
USA and Europe start from very different starting blocks: USA was a car-only (almost) Nation, and it’s trying to add some PT to reduce the dependency on the cars. This requires a lot of public decision-making and money as well as a certain amount of deviation from market economy towards a rule-based economy.
European Countries (United Europe is anything but united) each in different ways and magnitude have always been very dependent on PT, although the private car has the top share since the 60’s. Most PT systems were State owned or at least State ruled and state subsidized, and worked in monopoly outside any logic of market economy. You can see it from the names of the rail companies: British Rail, Ferrovie dello Stato, Ferrocarrils Nacionales Deutsche Bundesbahn etcetera. Europe is undergoing a shift towards private enterprise, and is putting more market and more state in transportation. The first Country to do so extensively has been UK which now has the most expensive PT in the world and the most complicated PT faring and schedule system, ever.
So, even if it may seem that Euorpe is taking steps towards individual decisions and cars, it is still much more dependent on PT and less on cars than USA and more a regulatory type of market than USA, and it will still be when this readjustment will be completed (if it ever will). As for China, it is simply making the same mistakes that our Countries have done 50 years ago by not recognizing that it is not possible to make transportation of persons depend entirely on the private car.
Regards, Luca
eph
Most damage will come to the cyclist typically. A $300 deductible
exceeds the value of many (most) bicycles. Insurance would be needed
by the city for inadequate maintenance of paths perhaps? The city
already clears our sidewalks and I don't think they get sued often
(ever). Streets are cleared with tax money whether you own a vehicle
or not so I don't see why cyclists should be doubly taxed. Police
already fine cyclists for riding on the sidewalk, no helmets (under
18), running lights etc... Bicycles are considered vehicles as far as
the law is concerned, just not as far as the city is concerned (at
least not WRT clearing snow...)
Cycling has many benefits - no oil used, better health (unless a car
gets you), low space use, low noise...
A PAT solution with bicycle accommodation (on board and at station -
lockers or even a bike share program) would work nicely. If you're
not a bicycle rider, you can walk or use a (DM) EV.
F.
Michael Weidler
Richard Gronning <gron...@myclearwave.net> wrote:
If there is enough riders. What we learned from a consulting firm in Santa Cruz is that a company selling a system would have to show $1B in assets before any consulting firm will recommend them.4) Streetcars are proven technology5) The Feds are often willing to fork over money for streetcars
Michael Weidler
Guala Luca <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
Michael,
> If you produce for LRT "real, detailed data", how in the world do they sell any systems? It is perfectly obvious from the real word data that LRT does not work as advertised.
In one case, we compared it with underground metro. It won 10 to 1 in terms of cost and we showed that with 1/5 of the money of a single metro line we could do a network. Whether that network could have been done better with PRT, will never be known as nobody asked us the question (we get paid fairly well to answer questions, so we seldom do it unless asked)
cheers, Luca
Michael Weidler
Edward Sax <es...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Pursuant to items 1-6, can history of early American turnpikes and long distance power lines be instructive? Both transport systems capitalized at no cost to local governments.Richard Gronning <gron...@myclearwave.net> wrote:
Michael Weidler wrote:A city, county, or State government WILL sign a contract IF they don't have to pay for the system.1) Governments do not take "proposals" by entities which are not vendors of the proposed systems.
Maybe! I believe that Fed $$$ are tighter and systems will have to show ridership.2) Streetcars are proven tedchnology3) The Feds are often willing to fork over money for streetcars
If there is enough riders. What we learned from a consulting firm in Santa Cruz is that a company selling a system would have to show $1B in assets before any consulting firm will recommend them.4) Streetcars are proven technology5) The Feds are often willing to fork over money for streetcars
This is what really gets to me. Riding trolleys, LRT, etc. really isn't that bad, but the development side of it is criminal. The developers can wait until the ma&pa businesses along the routs go broke in 3 or 4 years. They pick up the property in bankruptcy. THEN they get local, state, and probably federal $$$ in order to develop.6) Streecars are perceived as encouraging development.
Governments want to justify the expense of the transit systems and the subsidies. They fund developers to show how transit is good for development. It's a good deal for developers!
Jack Slade
Guala Luca <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
Jack,
> I think I am a good statistical example for North America.this sentence shows that you don't know what "statistical" means
Like hell I don't !! .... Jack
Richard Gronning
To begin with, I'm happy to see the response that is happening to the bicycle "thing." Proper bike lanes and separate bike-only routes can be an important part of solving the transportation equation.
>I think I am a good statistical example for North America.
>Are you sure people like the trams, or is it just that they don't have any other way to get there? I know some people >like bicycles. Somebody persuaded some government to turn an abandoned railway track in st.Petersburg-Clearwater area of Florida into a bicycle route. It cost millions, and there was one place where a >bridge crossed an inlet where you could see a bridge almost half-mile long. I saw 2 bicycles on it at once one day, it was that crowded. Let's talk realism.
>
>Jack Slade
It's the same in Ft. Worth, TX. They have bike trails there that are, according to an old friend, used by people with golf carts. The other side of this equation is that there are areas, such as here in Minnesota, where they are having serious problems with bike routes. There are so many bikes on them that they have had to separate out the lanes. I saw bike routes in Sacramento, CA that have rush-hour traffic problems. The routes are so crowded that there are accidents. So, there's a diversity in different parts of the country; Surprise, surprise!
Maybe Jack Slade is at least indicative of N. Fl.
Guala Luca wrote:
I was joking. I know there are such places and the Netherlands is a bike heaven (but also some place in Italy like Ferrara or Parma). I am working to help the local administration set up some bike facilities in this town too. It is not an easy task because the town is very hilly and some inclines prevent anyone except trained cyclists from reaching some important parts of the town such as the Faculty of engineering, the medieval citadel, and a couple of parks.
Incredibly, some of my worst enemies are the bike advocacy groups. They want bike lanes everywhere and it's of no use explaining that bikes can and should ride mixed with traffic, provided the intersections are made safe. I tried to explain that mode separation is OK in country roads but it's not the way to go in a dense urban area with little road space. Actually mixing bikes with cars will promote a virtuous behaviour from both sides, while separating them will allow anyone to do as they please in the space they have assigned
I tried to explain that a proper bike lane will require removing parking space and would exacerbate the conflict between cyclists and car users. I was labelled as a car advocate and an enemy of cycling! Moreover, they are convinced that a 1 km long 10% incline is not an obstacle to any cyclist and a bike lane should be drawn on that road too. Sometimes, riding too much makes you unaware of the difference between a trained cyclist and a normal person. They are effectively doing the game of the car lobby in the administration who can't wait to build useless bike lanes to say "See? No cyclist used it. It's wasted money. I had told you they don't deserve anything"
I probably rode less than 5 km on a recumbent. But the bike felt OK (once at a speed. I reckon I did have some problems starting from a traffic light!). What didn't was the relationship with other users of the road.
You make a strong point that I agree with that they probably aren't for the inner city, unless it's car free. Recumbents are at their best on bike-only routes and non-city roads without much traffic. which means they may never pick up in crowded Europe!!!
Best,
Dick
Richard Gronning
Bob Dunning
It is currently making the rounds and came into my inbox twice in the last week. I am hoping that I have the access privileges set correctly on this file so everyone can see it.
--
Bob Dunning
Bob Dunning
Now people will die regularly along that route, unless they have succeeded in eliminating all the pedestrians from the North County.
--
Bob Dunning
Walter Brewer
Walter Brewer
----- Original Message -----From: Bob Dunning
Michael Weidler
Jerry Roane <jerry...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think you have a false impression of the size of the TriTrack. It is big. Attached is the comparison of size with the tail of my Prius. The laser cut ring will be at an event tomorrow to show scale to dispell the first impression that electric cars are tiny. The car is about 3 inches shorter than both my standard issue American garages. This was not a design accident but rather a design choice. The 20 foot long car provides as you can see from the photo almost the same hip room but with significantly more leg room. The car sits higher than a recumbent bike and while on the guideway at 17 feet and 23 feet elevation you can look down on all the traffic below as you avoid the fray. People naturally put together an amalgom of electric cars they have experienced so it is natural that it would be seen as a tiny thing given the GE versions from the 1970s of what electric cars are supposed to be. I cannot stress enough that the shape of the car determines the drag far more than how short the wheel base can be made. Sort is bad long is good. While on the street at 20 mph for 1/4 mile with no feeder traffic in your way you probably won't even see another car most days. When you do you will be looking at them the exact same as if you were riding a $1,000,000 Italian sports car. Some people pay extra to sit lower than the duffus riding his "command seating" SUV.
Jerry Roane
Michael Weidler
Richard Gronning <gron...@myclearwave.net> wrote:
Luca Guala wrote:Richard,<!--[if !supportLists]-->Ø <!--[endif]-->I like bikes! has anybody ever tried HPVs? Recumbent bikes?
I have ridden a recumbent. I loved it at the beginning and hated it at the end. Why? Firstly, you can’t move a metre without attracting the attention of everyone. It’s cool at first, it becomes annoying when you go to work every day. Secondly, when riding among cars, they can’t see you and you can’t see a damn thing except the back of the car in front of you. Scary!!! On the other hand, you can go really really fast riding a recumbent in the wake of a car.
Could it be the conditions? To begin with You experience a different type of driver and a different type of traffic. What if you were in a situation where motorized traffic weren't allowed?
My experience with recumbents is that cars reacted to them (me) with more awareness because they looked different. The cars slowed and looked. I felt safer. The "attracting attention" became an asset. For touring in rural areas with less traffic and longer distances, a recumbent seems better. In closer traffic during rush hours maybe you have the best point.
On an “ordinary” bike your head is well above the roof of most cars although things are getting worse now that SUV’s are so common. I think this problem will also affect modern streamlined vehicles such as TriTrack.
Another problem is, "How does one fit a recumbent into a PRT vehicle, unless it folds?"
Jay Andress
Michael Weidler
Guala Luca <gu...@systematica.net> wrote:
> This has reduced the number of
speeding cars on those sections of road to a mere 4%!!!
this is probably the same % of cars that DO NOT break the speed limits in Italy. I have seen four NUNS in a Fiat Uno travelling at 30 km/h above speed limit.
The introduction of fixed speed cameras (German style) on a ringroad (70 km/h speed limit) around the town where I live has produced new way of driving: speed up to 90-120 km/h; brake HARD near the camera, pass in front of it at 70 then SPEED UP again as quick as possible. It's fun when you see little trains of Alfa Romeos and BMW's doing the "camera dance" on the fast lane. By the way, headway is less than one second. If they can do it, why not PRT?
cheers, Luca
Michael Weidler
Richard Gronning <gron...@myclearwave.net> wrote:
> RE: motorized traffic not allowed? Is there such a paradise on earth?
>
Many cities in the U.S. have an agenda to set up bike trails. Many are
routes on less-busy city streets, some are paved separate bike-only
routes. An idea about 10 years ago in Minneapolis was to set up these
routes for commuting to work. I can think of 2 bike-only routes into
down town Minneapolis and a couple into downtown St. Paul. As I
mentioned in another brief, Sacramento CA has some fine bike-only
routes. Anchorage is criss-crossed with paved bike-only routes that are
used for cross-country skiing in winter.
From what Robert of 2getthere writes, the Netherlands also have some
bike routes. I've seen them in Germany too. Denmark has them. Many
countries have bike and pedestrian routes.
> RE: My experience is a short-ish ride around town on a fiend'sbike, after a trial test in a park to see if I could manage it (it was an SWB recumbent, luckily with high bars). It was in 1999 in Leeds, UK. It was stressful enough for me to ride on the left hand, and to manage such a strange handling vehicle, having cars slow alongside and the driver stare at me was a nightmare
>
While I sympathize, I think that you have to put at least 15 KM on a
recumbent before you even begin to feel comfortable and in control. You
make a strong point that I agree with that they probably aren't for the
inner city, unless it's car free. Recumbents are at their best on
bike-only routes and non-city roads without much traffic.
>> Problem solved:
>>
>> http://www.yankodesign.com/index.php/2007/09/03/grasshopper-the-folding-recumbent-bike/
>>
>> cheers, Luca
>>
That would work with PRT!
All the Best,
Dick