New Report - electric cars could speed climate change

[Eric Doherty]

Note that this study only looks at vehicle operations, not the full lifecycle of manufacturing, maintenance, parking ect.

 

In the BC context you could assume that our electricity is already very low-carbon, or that increased electricity consumption translates directly into increased coal fired generation in Alberta and the US, or anything in between.

 

 

European law means electric cars could speed climate change
Thursday, 12th November, 2009
 

The idea that a wholesale switch to electric cars would automatically reduce CO2 emissions and dependence on oil is one of a number of myths dispelled by a major new report.

 

The report, ‘How to avoid an electric shock: Electric cars from hype to reality’ was conducted by the European lobby group Transport & Environment, an organisation co-founded and supported by the ETA.

 

The report found that whilst there were significant potential environmental benefits to be had from a switch to electric vehicles, these were wholly dependent on changes in the way electricity was generated, energy taxed and CO2 emissions regulated. Current EU legislation contains loopholes that are likely to lead to emissions and oil use going up.

 

How could electric cars ‘increase’ emissions?
Binding EU targets for car CO2 emissions agreed last December include ‘super credits’ that enable carmakers to sell up to 3.5 gas-guzzling SUVs for every electric vehicle they sell and still reach their official EU target. Electric cars are also counted as ‘zero emissions’ despite the fact that the electricity they use can come from high-carbon fossil fuels such as coal

 

The combined effect of these loopholes would be that carmakers that choose to market electric cars to meet EU targets would have to do less to reduce emissions of conventional cars. The overall effect would be higher CO2 emissions and oil use

 

Director at the Environmental Transport Association (ETA), Andrew Davis, said: “Whilst the report is not intended to dampen enthusiasm for electric vehicles, their introduction should not be viewed as a panacea; significant changes to the way we produce and tax power are needed before we will reap benefits.”

 

More at http://www.eta.co.uk/2009/11/12/european-law-means-electric-cars-could-speed-climate-change

 

Summary and Full Study at http://www.transportenvironment.org/News/2009/11/Electric-cars-likely-to-lead-to-more-CO2-because-of-EU-legal-loopholes/

 

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Eric.
 
This study was based on the fact that a lot of electricty in Europe is produced by burning coal.  I have said all along that alternative energy has to replace coal and oil burning.  What has been missed, from previous bloggs I have written, is the study done by Stanford University which demonstrated that wind energy could supply 40 times more energy than we are presently using today.  There are very efficient solar farms in desserts in the USA which have a huge potential for producing a lot of energy.  There is even the possibility that electric car operators could charge up their batteries with their own solar panels located on the garage roof.
 
Terry Dyck
  

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From: edoh...@uniserve.com
To: livable-c...@lists.smartgrowth.bc.ca; trans-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [trans-action] New Report - electric cars could speed climate change
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:34:46 -0800

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[Richard Campbell]

Only problem is finding the funding to build all those wind farms. Don't forget that building all those windmills will use a lot of resources and have a rather large environmental impact.

The solar panels in the deserts require a lot of water to clean the panels and the less expensive ones require a lot more water to run them which is very scarce in the desert.

Solar panels are very expensive and require expensive, scarce rare metals to build. Not really an option in BC in the winter anyway.

Richard

[Terry Dyck]

The cost of windmills and solar farms are a good investment because they are a sustainable form of clean energy as opposed to the tar sands which is Canada's biggest contributor of GHG and have a tremendous cost as well.  The tar sands uses many times more water than solar.  For every barrel of oil extracted from the tar sands nearly a barrel of water is used and also a barrel of natural gas.  This is a very non efficient way of producing energy.  Oil is completely non sustainable, a huge contributor to bad air quality and a large producer of Green House Gases.
 
Terry Dyck
 

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From: richard.cam...@gmail.com
To: trans-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [trans-action] New Report - electric cars could speed climate change
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:53:36 -0800

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[Richard Campbell]

Terry, please. I'm not saying use oil instead, I'm saying provide people with great alternatives including rapid transit, cycling and rail so they are not forced to drive. Instead of spending money on tar sands and windmills, lets spend it on sustainable transportation choices.

Richard

[Larry Pamer]

A corollary to Richard's sentiment of not "forcing people to drive" is don't let people drive.  There was a time when driver distractions centered around which AM station to select.  Nowadays, cars are sold as though they make the purchaser a player in the real estate market.  Features include kitchenettes (fridges, cup holders, AC outlets), a home entertainment center, talking dashboards, privacy (tinted glass), daycare (rear seat DVD players) and a deck (multiple sunroofs and climate controls).  If that doesn't assuage the commuter, they can dial up a friend and prattle.  Given that roughly half of this sample of road users has an IQ of less than 100, I would say they already have a full plate.  

It is essential to seek a future of energy source awareness.  With cars, though, I think this takes a back seat to getting rid of private vehicles.  It would reclaim a lot of public space from its current use as an RV park.

[Terry Dyck]

Larry, I am hearing what you are saying about how ridiculous vehicles have become with all of the extras and Richard I really do understand about why you are promoting transit.  I am always promoting walking, cycling and transit.  At the same time do you not believe that electric cars are actually on the same team as those 3 alternate forms of transport?  The other team is still extremely popular which consists of SUV's, large pickup trucks and all vehicles which burn fossil fuels.  To get people out of burning fossil fuels we need to do many things which will include walking, cycling, transit and switching to  non polluting vehicles.  Regular transit and rail mostly consists of fossil burning so we could start there by converting those vehicles
 to electric power or at least hybrids. 
 
Terry Dyck

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From: lpa...@shaw.ca

Subject: Re: [trans-action] New Report - electric cars could speed climate change

Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:59:40 -0800
To: trans-...@googlegroups.com

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[Eric Doherty]

Terry,

 

You make an excellent point about converting existing rail and transit to electricity. Heavy duty equipment such as locomotives, and to a lesser degree buses, last a long time and are often completely dissambled and rebuilt. Most locomotives are already diesel-electric so the electric drive motor already exists. (My understanding is that at least one of the 1980s era BC Rail electric locomotives was converted to a diesel-electric locomotive, so the reverse should be practical and cost effective as well).

 

I am less certain about converting existing passenger cars, but support the idea of trying it as an experiment. However, if it invoves filling the bed of a pickup truck with batteries (making the truck useless as a truck), it is a dubious proposition.

 

My take on electric cars is that at the moment they are mainly being used as an excuse to delay the changes that need to be made. For example producing glib answers (GA) such as:

• Bigger freeways? - (GA)- no problem, we will all be driving electric cars!
• Forcing people to spend tens of thousands of dollars per apartment on parking? - (GA) People will still need parking, just for electric cars.
• Spending billions to burry rapid transit underground (releasing a 'carbon bomb' from the concrete and steel at the same time)? - (GA) We are going to need the road space for all the electric cars.
• Private hydroelectric facilities being built with a goldrush mentality for export with poor environmental oversight on salmon streams (thereby creating a backlash to renewable energy projects of all types)? (GA) We need more and more electricity for electric cars, there is no time to do waste on good standards and the debate over public / private ownership etc.

The list goes on and on. But this does not mean that there is no role for electric vehicles.

 

It just means that talking about electric cars like they are the technological magic that will save us all does more harm than good. Automobile dependance has an ecological footprint that extends well beyond the most obvious ghg emissions.

 

The same is true of wind energy, you wrote that "wind energy could supply 40 times more energy than we are presently using today," which misses a very important point. Energy limits are one of the key factors that prevents us from trashing the web of life which we are a part of even quicker. Under our present economic system, using 40 times more energy would almost certainly lead to an ecological meltdown which would doom our civilization if not our species. (Read Bill Rees or David Suzuki for more on energy and environmental impacts). But also think about how much steel and concrete would be required, and how big the carbon emissions from this would be.

 

So no, I do not think electric cars can be placed in the same category/team as walking or cycling which involve reducing the need for travel and material goods.

 

Personally owned electric cars are not in the same category as public transit because they are not shared - a car seat today is usually ownly sat in by one person per day for a couple of trips. A trolley bus seat gets used perhaps 50 times per day by different people. It is electric taxis and electric car share cars that are in a similar category to transit. Electric scooters are in a similar category to good quality bicycles and good walking shoes.

 

Electric cars are in a similar category as hybrid gasoline cars. They invove higher ghg emissions to produce (and probably to maintain), but lower emissions per km/hour of use. Their impact depends on how they are used, and their main ghg reduction potential seems to lie in high milage shared or commercial use such as taxis, delivery, farm, and carshare vehicles.

 

Cheers,

 

Eric

[Chris Keam]

I think the debate over electric cars is important, but for cyclists I think the advent of fast e-bikes is going to be a bigger issue. Are fully pedal-powered cyclists prepared to share bike lanes with vehicles capable of speeds approaching 50 kph?

Link goes to example.

Chris Keam

in...@chriskeam.com

604-780-6125

http://www.chriskeam.com/

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[HJEH Becker]

The value of keeping like speed methods of travel together has been pointed out over the years.  Combining 15 and 20 kph bicycles with 50 kph electric bicycles takes us back to urban roads signed at 50 kph without any cycling facilities.  Moving forward or backwards?

 

Hans-Jurgen (Jack) E.H. Becker

3303-1033 Marinaside Cr.

Vancouver, B.C., V6Z 3A3

604-681-5744

hjehb...@novuscom.net

 

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From: Chris Keam [mailto:ck...@telus.net]
Sent: November 24, 2009 11:17 PM
To: trans-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [trans-action] New Report - electric cars could speed climate change

[Richard Campbell]

Not really an issue at all. In BC e-bikes are limited to 32km per hour so it is really not a problem. The more people using bike lanes and paths, the better. Electric bikes make the case for increased investment in cycling facilities even stronger. They are also a great answer to the "Vancouver is toooo hilly for cycling" crowd.

Richard

[Luis Bernhardt]

Not an issue right now, but something to pay attention to. Yes, the legislated limit is 32 kmh, but under what conditions is this measured? Ostensibly, this would be 32 kmh on level ground with no wind. But how about 32 kmh up a 6% grade? This would translate to quite a bit more than 32 kmh on level ground with a tailwind. And is this motor only, or with pedal assistance? I would think it would be 32 kmh with just the motor, so cranking hard along with the motor could dramatically increase the speed. As well, I really don’t think that anyone (guys especially) with an e-bike is going to be happy with just keeping a stock 32 kmh limitation. It’s not difficult to boost the maximum well beyond 32 kmh, and this would be a difficult temptation to resist. The electric bike we use for training at the Burnaby Velodrome is capable of pacing keirins at 50 kmh and leading out sprints at close to 70 kmh. What, cops are going to lay speed traps for e-bikes to make sure they’re not doing more than 32 kmh? I don’t think so,,,

 

By the same token, I think that if anyone with an e-bike is going to be cruising at greater than 32 kmh, they must be prepared to have a pace line stuck to their back wheel. That’s got to be the informal agreement. I was pacing behind an e-bike this morning on the way to work in the rain (the first time I’ve ever seen an e-bike being used in the rain – I had thought that they would short out, but I guess not). The dude riding it was doing well over 32 kmh… (I could have stayed with him, but he insisted on blowing stop signs, not even slowing down! Not a good idea on a dark morning in the rain.)

 

The distinction between e-bike and small motorbike is pretty thin. We could also be looking at licensing and insurance at some point, especially with these e-bikes that don’t even have pedals.

 

L.

 

From: Richard Campbell [mailto:richard.cam...@gmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 6:07 PM
To: trans-...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [trans-action] New Report - electric cars could speed climate change